| So I want to ask some of you about your opinion about TERF extremism and Gender role. I saw a thread where the conversation briefly touched on Why trans women don't like to be called traps, why they are not traps etc and Gender roles/definitions. The week end I spent at Dyke march in London was filled with some, of course hate speech about trans women ''invading'' lesbian space. Some of the TERFS insist on calling them men and other things. So I wanted to get a proper discussion about Gender going and TERF extremism. ''Biologists''. On discussion point I'd like to cover is. We're on the scientific cutting edge. There's already uterine implants and the beginning of being able to grow organs in the laboratory. In the near future, being able to grow from the persons DNA an entirely working vagina(or penis) in the lab and implant it into transitioning individuals so they have entirely working sex organs of that gender. How will that affect TERF extremism then? Trolls welcome of course. I want to hear what everyone thinks. Mod Edit: Thread locked for violating Casual Discussion Rule 7 |
FluffygreygrassApr 27, 8:29 PM
shintai88 said: I reckon anyone who has a sex change should be required by law to present the fact they were once a women or a man. So that the other person knows. This is to ensure peoples religious believes and personally preferences are not wrecked when the truth comes out later, Mainly after sexual activities or marriage. I have very conflicted feelings about this, but I think I agree with you on this. People have the right to know what you truely are. xDrayken said: I simply think all of it is fucked up. If you're a woman, stay a woman. If you're a man, stay a man. That's how nature was intended because that's how it developped. 'Nature' gives people hideous deformities. Nature is a bitch. |
| All worship the great Tatsuya-nii-sama. Kronie said: Only those who are lost and empty seek guidance and fulfillment. |
Heredity said: wait, why are women transitioning to men at a 'dyke march'? correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't their sexual orientation technically... straight? Some of them like women. Go figure. Since they're now women in both name/deed/role and how the appear then that would make them lesbians. The argument about Gender roles being in your head not reflection on biology is a TERF argument. That trans women are still just men. My stance is let people define who they are, however they want. Also, if you put a man and a woman next to each other and ask what makes a woman a woman and a man a man. (without lab equipment) . And a trans women looks like a woman, then that makes them a woman. |
| Nature makes mistakes. Nature gives people thousands of disabilities by accident. I agree with the prior statement "nature is a bitch", because we really can't control it! This is where my reasoning starts: We are forced to accept all these disabilities and live with them as good as possible. Some people are born with huge noses that give them complexes. Aren't they very lucky to live today, where plastic surgery isn't a problem anymore? We should really make use of modern science, if it can improve the living quality of some people. Transsexuality is not very different to those mistakes of nature. Transsexuals didn't choose to be born in the wrong body [That's how it looks for them: A transsexual is nothing more than a male brain in a female body/a female brain in a male body]. I just think that as science develops, our ways of thinking have to develop as well. We shouldn't stick to the views one had 50 years ago, because that point of view was up-to-date with science then. Also, many suicides are prevented by making sex change possible. You have to keep in mind that transsexuals suffer. It would only be fair to approve of their sex change and to not say controversial stuff against it. |
If life ain't just a joke Then why are we laughing? If life ain't just a joke Then why am I dead? |
| . Samurnor said: I have very conflicted feelings about this, but I think I agree with you on this. People have the right to know what you truely are. What they truly are is what they decide they are. Only person who has the right to know any past medical issues is the doctor and anyone they might be romantically involved in. Everyone else is irrelevant ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also, Science is the reason we haven't been eaten by larger mammals, have cars, planes and computers. People who reall want to use the ''but it's nature'' then every artificially inseminated baby is ''wrong'' and so is wearing clothes. |
xDrayken said: Samurnor said: 'Nature' gives people hideous deformities. Nature is a bitch. Shit happens. Not all cucumbers, tomatoes, pumpkins, apples, etc, always grow perfectly. Some are better than others, some are tastier, some are deformed, some don't grow all the way, some don't grow at all. Which is a great argument for, fuck nature. especially when we have the power to change it to what we want. |
Elvellonwen said: implants and the beginning of being able to grow penis in the lab and implant it into transitioning individuals Trolls welcome of course. mmm Will you wreck me once you get your new penis~? |
  Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet |
Heredity said: i'm not sure what happened here, but to me is seems like you took the 'i'll get offended' path. i just assumed that since they transitioned, they probably would be trying to fit whatever role they are in and that likely results in them being hetero (usually) in their new role. Nooo, not offended. But, I only really get offended when people really start throwing hate speech around and being stubbornly ignorant about how mailable life is. xDrayken said: Changing nature to what we want is the reason why we fucked up the earth. It's the reason why people die when they shouldn't have, it's the reason why animals die when they shouldn't have, it's the reason why whole forests are cut down, it's the reason why radiations are killing people, infecting water etc. Nature shouldn't have been changed, it's not because you can that you should, and that's where humanity fucked up, they do because they can, not because it's rational. Are you religious or Christian? just curious. Not going to attack you or anything. Just got some deeply religious indoctrination in that post. Gay people exist regardless. And fucking up the planet isn't because we have the technology and ability to change stuff, it's that people are still very much stupid when it comes to how they use the power they have. There is no social or planetary responsibility when it comes to that kind of power and that's the reason why it's messed up. We're still growing as a species. We've generally as a species really yet to actually learn what it means to be a decent human being. Exceptions don't prove the rule, but they do pave the way for new ones. Lime_ said: Elvellonwen said: implants and the beginning of being able to grow penis in the lab and implant it into transitioning individuals Trolls welcome of course. mmm Will you wreck me once you get your new penis~? You're on thin ice little man. |
xDrayken said: There's nothing wrong with gay people, if they want to be gay then sure, but getting a sex change because you're gay is a problem. You are born a homosexual, but you aren't born with a sex change. If people want to kill themselves because they don't have two holes down there, then it's not a sex change they need, it's psychological help. This kind of made me rage a bit. 4/10 . The bridge you dwell under must keep you warm at night. |
xDrayken said: What does it matter if the earth is destroyed in the process of human evolution, or rather modification? As long as we can find a way to survive while simultaneously making life more enjoyable is all that matters.Changing nature to what we want is the reason why we fucked up the earth. It's the reason why people die when they shouldn't have, it's the reason why animals die when they shouldn't have, it's the reason why whole forests are cut down, it's the reason why radiations are killing people, infecting water etc. Nature shouldn't have been changed, it's not because you can that you should, and that's where humanity fucked up, they do because they can, not because it's rational. |
| Blergh too confusing for me. Half the time I wonder if these feminists know what they want to achieve. Should a transvestite be able to call himself a woman, yeah I guess :/ Even though he's not technically. You're born a gender, no amount of body mods will change that fact. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
xDrayken said: What does it matter? You're destroying things, you're disrespecting living life and other things. . And people die if they are killed. |
Masked_Mantis said: Blergh too confusing for me. Half the time I wonder if these feminists know what they want to achieve. Should a transvestite be able to call himself a woman, yeah I guess :/ Even though he's not technically. You're born a gender, no amount of body mods will change that fact. Except that's not entirely true. We're still in a developmental stage of technology, but even now body modification can drastically change a person to being the sex they feel comfortable within their body. |
xDrayken said: Elvellonwen said: And people die if they are killed. Quite ironic that you talk about trolls in your original post. When you are one yourself. Well, I'm done here, no use of explaining anything to someone who seems not to be intellectually capable to understand simple logic, and converse with maturity. Next time, keep away from asking public questions on a forum if you're not ready for someone that has a logic that is different than yours. I respect your way of thinking, I'd expect you to respect mine. Thanks. The fact you even think you have the ability to ''explain'' anything to me is laughable. Everything yo post becomes a face palm. It's not that i dont ''respect you way of thinking. It's that everything you say has so many flaws in it ends up being a headache. If Trans women want to be called women, then they are women. End of story. You're projecting too much of yourself onto them. |
Elvellonwen said: I'd still say they're a trans male, as long as they were once a male (technically).Masked_Mantis said: Blergh too confusing for me. Half the time I wonder if these feminists know what they want to achieve. Should a transvestite be able to call himself a woman, yeah I guess :/ Even though he's not technically. You're born a gender, no amount of body mods will change that fact. Except that's not entirely true. We're still in a developmental stage of technology, but even now body modification can drastically change a person to being the sex they feel comfortable within their body. They can call themselves what they want I don't care. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Masked_Mantis said: Elvellonwen said: I'd still say they're a trans male, as long as they were once a male (technically).Except that's not entirely true. We're still in a developmental stage of technology, but even now body modification can drastically change a person to being the sex they feel comfortable within their body. They can call themselves what they want I don't care. They're trans women, because they're women now. Trans Men are trans men because they are men now. And being a male, is really about having a penis. Since trans women dont have a penis then thats basically end of discussion. |
| Say for example I got into a loving relationship with a girl and it turns out she was a guy once. That may not bother me if I was in love, but it may bother others. Disregarding the whole "ew you used to be guy" mentality; it could bother people because they might worry about their partner. Having a sex change can show that someone wasn't happy with themselves at one point, and that can be disheartening. Maybe people wouldn't want to settle down with someone who would willingly mod their body to such an extreme as well. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
camilleanime said: Of course you're born a gender. This is a fact it's not debatable.Masked_Mantis said: Blergh too confusing for me. Half the time I wonder if these feminists know what they want to achieve. Should a transvestite be able to call himself a woman, yeah I guess :/ Even though he's not technically. You're born a gender, no amount of body mods will change that fact. No, one is not born a gender. Gender is a cultural construct. Being born with a vagina means nothing more than... being born with a vagina. It doesn't make you good at cooking, raising children or not fit for maths no more than being born with a penis gives you specific skills for homo improvements or car mechanics. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Elvellonwen said: I think were in agreement xDMasked_Mantis said: I'd still say they're a trans male, as long as they were once a male (technically). They can call themselves what they want I don't care. They're trans women, because they're women now. Trans Men are trans men because they are men now. And being a male, is really about having a penis. Since trans women dont have a penis then thats basically end of discussion. I agree they are trans women. I also agree that they can call themselves WOMEN if they want. I can call myself whatever I want too. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
camilleanime said: Of course you're born a gender. This is a fact it's not debatable.[/quote]Masked_Mantis said: Blergh too confusing for me. Half the time I wonder if these feminists know what they want to achieve. Should a transvestite be able to call himself a woman, yeah I guess :/ Even though he's not technically. You're born a gender, no amount of body mods will change that fact. No, one is not born a gender. Gender is a cultural construct. Being born with a vagina means nothing more than... being born with a vagina. It doesn't make you good at cooking, raising children or not fit for maths no more than being born with a penis gives you specific skills for homo improvements or car mechanics. [camilleanime]: Trolling or idiocy. Am not going to bother making sure which it is in your case.[camilleanime] You're right! You're born a mystery and we somehow populate the earth. good one. Look up the definition of male and female please |
Dick_DawkinsJun 23, 2014 7:18 AM
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
worldeditor11 said: Elvellonwen said: If Trans women want to be called women, then they are women. End of story. What? Thats like saying if one looks like a fish, smells like a fish, eat like a fish and above all, thinks it is a fish then it is a fish when technically it is not. This is the same argument they used regarding the anime definition of Avatar which we all probably know by now it is not. If it looks like a shit and smells like a shit, then it's a shit. Like your post. Join my FB campaign to end shitposting on MAL |
| This thread I applaud you all |
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worldeditor11 said: I'll try harder next timeZetrin said: Stop shitposting please.This thread I applaud you all I mean, sex=gender....right? |
ShannaroJun 23, 2014 7:27 AM
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| If you identify more with women and you consider yourself one, even if you are born male, then I'm not gonna say you're still a man. People oughta shut up and stop trying to make other conform to their points of view. Because almost all the worlds problems are caused by that. |
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xDrayken said: Then why are you posting on a internet forum or watching anime? Do you also refuse to ride a car, a bus, buy supermarket food or use electricity? All of these are unnatural by your definition, and yet here you are. We detract from natural behavior to make our lives more convinient or comfortable, if changing your sex is gonna make you more comfortable, why should it be any different from other "unnatural things" we do?Nature shouldn't have been changed, it's not because you can that you should, and that's where humanity fucked up, they do because they can, not because it's rational. Elaborate on how is it bad to make our lives more convinient by not living in caves or wearing clothes. |
| it recognizes that the only way for transgender people - that is people who do not identify with their at-birth assigned gender Camille we agreed with each other all along, hugs? >w> I think my comments just appear edgy. I actually don't disagree with Elphe a lot of the time. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Masked_Mantis said: it recognizes that the only way for transgender people - that is people who do not identify with their at-birth assigned gender Camille we agreed with each other all along, hugs? >w> I think my comments just appear edgy. I actually don't disagree with Elphe a lot of the time. Wait we were disagreeing? I thought you were my bitch. |
xDrayken said: Your example is extreme, however, it isnt a good example. A better example would be that: we live in the same apartment building and one of us decides to destroy the staircase for fun, however, this doesnt hinder any of us because we still have an alternative, and that is using the elevator.dragonlight said: What does it matter? You're destroying things, you're disrespecting living life and other things.What does it matter if the earth is destroyed in the process of human evolution, or rather modification? As long as we can find a way to survive while simultaneously making life more enjoyable is all that matters. How would you take it if you'd let me live in your house and I'd just burn it down? Giving you the excuse that I had fun doing it, it should be right? The example is extreme, but it needs to be so to make you understand the basic of the idea. This planet is the same. You might think it's enjoyable and funny for you to live the way you do, but remember that people are dying for you to live the way you do. People are giving away their time, sweat and blood for you to eat the food you have on your plate, for you to wear the clothes you wear everyday. Why should it be a good thing, as long as you get to enjoy it? Like I said, humanity fucked up the moment they thought they -should do- simply because they -can-. |
dragonlight said: xDrayken said: Your example is extreme, however, it isnt a good example. A better example would be that: we live in the same apartment building and one of us decides to destroy the staircase for fun, however, this doesnt hinder any of us because we still have an alternative, and that is using the elevator.What does it matter? You're destroying things, you're disrespecting living life and other things. How would you take it if you'd let me live in your house and I'd just burn it down? Giving you the excuse that I had fun doing it, it should be right? The example is extreme, but it needs to be so to make you understand the basic of the idea. This planet is the same. You might think it's enjoyable and funny for you to live the way you do, but remember that people are dying for you to live the way you do. People are giving away their time, sweat and blood for you to eat the food you have on your plate, for you to wear the clothes you wear everyday. Why should it be a good thing, as long as you get to enjoy it? Like I said, humanity fucked up the moment they thought they -should do- simply because they -can-. No, in keeping with your analogy. We all live in an apartment building and someone decides to knock through a fire place in their bedroom. Which affects nobody except the people in that room because it's none of anyone else business what goes on in someone else's bedroom. |
Elvellonwen said: I've got my own MAL crushes =:3 But they never notice me ;-;Masked_Mantis said: it recognizes that the only way for transgender people - that is people who do not identify with their at-birth assigned gender Camille we agreed with each other all along, hugs? >w> I think my comments just appear edgy. I actually don't disagree with Elphe a lot of the time. Wait we were disagreeing? I thought you were my bitch. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
camilleanime said: I can't even hang up on telemarketers xD. If someone want''s to be identified as anything I wont judge.Masked_Mantis said: it recognizes that the only way for transgender people - that is people who do not identify with their at-birth assigned gender Camille we agreed with each other all along, hugs? >w> I think my comments just appear edgy. I actually don't disagree with Elphe a lot of the time. nah, i think me, you and Elvellonwen, we cool and on the same wave. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| I'm with xDrayken on this. I'd say what he's said is pretty solid fact really. In the animal kingdom there are no transgenders, since their instinct is for reproduction. I'd say woman is the same as female too, I just don't care if a male wants to be identified as one. I respect that people want to "be" different genders. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
| The thing about TERFS is, they don't see anything other than what they perceive. The use the chromosomal and D'n'A argument, but you can't see that with human eyes. What you can see is a woman standing in front of you or a man. The judgement call of people based on that is then to say you are a ''female'' or ''male'' . The only problems people have is with no passable transgender folk who look like men but dress and ''act'' as girls. There is no specific way a girl or a guy ''acts'' there is no, i ''feel'' like a woman, because not all women ''feel'' the same. Thats re enforced gender roles and those are things we need to abolish. But identifying as female or male means dysphoria. And dysphoria is a huge issue based solely around body image. not how a person acts or feels. But how they look and want to look. And identifying as a women or a man but being assign the wrong gender at birth can be really devastating for people experiencing dysphoria. Until they complete a physical transition, they can't move on in their life. |
camilleanime said: I retract what I've said : I'm not sure I'm on the same wave as anybody in this thread. But at least, I've expressed my position clearly. I don't really get why people are arguing with me, but all at the same time telling me that my arguments are right. Too much confusion in this thread to handle. /moving on I'm not arguing with you. Masked_Mantis said: I'm with xDrayken on this. I'd say what he's said is pretty solid fact really. In the animal kingdom there are no transgenders, since their instinct is for reproduction. I'd say woman is the same as female too, I just don't care if a male wants to be identified as one. I respect that people want to "be" different genders. Gender and sexuality is not the same thing. Gender is a patriarchal stereotype that women must be this and men must be this and that there is no room for anything but. That women must wear skirts and heels and lipstick. Nature is not the basis for ourself because we've ''evolved'' (and i use that word lightly here because my god the level of monkey brain stupidity here is beyond stupid) Beyond the ''Natural'' way of doing anything. Transsexuals are simply people who are using the technology available to change their bodies so they feel more comfortable. Thats it. The whole point of Dyke march was to highlight that women are not just that barbie doll image. We had trans women there and the whole argument of gender and biology obviously became a huge issue. |
xDrayken said: 10/10 trollingYour arguments are right, but not directed towards the right opposing arguments. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
xDrayken said: Elvellonwen said: Gender and sexuality is not the same thing. Gender is a patriarchal stereotype that women must be this and men must be this and that there is no room for anything but. That women must wear skirts and heels and lipstick. "Gender is the range of physical, biological, mental and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity and femininity.[1][2][3] [i]Depending on the context,[/i] the term may refer to biological sex (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex), sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity." We're done here. sex-based social structures (including gender roles and other social roles), or gender identity. Yep, we are. |
| Oh gender roles now I see. |
Trance said: I'm a guy and I can imagine buttfucking another guy. I don't find the thought repulsive, and I can even imagine kissing another man. |
Masked_Mantis said: Oh gender roles now I see. oh now you see. xDrayken said: #said some more rubbish You point is a biological one. And everyone else with a working brain is from a complex system of abstract evolutionary ideas and creations. You're a monkey trying to grasp the finer points of how to not eat your own shit.. |
| Not to be mean but I think it's better to stay who you are |
 |
xDrayken said: I simply think all of it is fucked up. If you're a woman, stay a woman. If you're a man, stay a man. That's how nature was intended because that's how it developped. Sorry, but you're gonna need a better reason than "because that's the way it is" or "that's how nature was intended". We humans have evolved over the years and will continue to evolve and grow in the near future. It's not your opinion that is wrong, but your reason for having said opinion is wrong. |
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Elvellonwen said: Certainly we've had enough of this cancerous topic by now, right? Unless everyone here is secretly a masochist or something for wanting to discuss it so much.and Gender role. OT because I have to: You are what you were originally born as. Having a dick or a vagina on you that isn't even yours doesn't make that less true. That shit being grown in a lab won't change that either. It's still not yours. The reason why I can accept gays and lesbians is because I believe being born that way isn't a choice, and even if it isn't, all it does is change who you sleep with anyway. That is not hard to accept. That is not the case with transvestites, and honestly, with my mindset, I usually can't see them as anything but a disgusting abomination. I can't bring myself to think it's okay to fuck with your body that badly just because you dislike who you were born as. You should stay who you were born as. |
KorrvoJun 23, 2014 10:34 AM
☕ Truth be told, I'm quite proud of my house blend. To attain my flavor and fragrance, I use five different types of coffee beans. ☕ |
xDrayken said: Dark_Chaos said: Sorry, but you're gonna need a better reason than "because that's the way it is" or "that's how nature was intended". We humans have evolved over the years and will continue to evolve and grow in the near future. It's not your opinion that is wrong, but your reason for having said opinion is wrong. I don't think you've seen the rest of the thread if you think that's all I said. Nice observational skills there lad. I don't need to though. That one post was so incredibly unintelligent that I don't think you could ever redeem yourself. |
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