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| Woah, more deaths here... xD Time for the inevitable double cross to happen. Kirei x Archer will be epic villains... 5/5 |
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Zarnaav said: I have trouble following you.Well Kirei had to choose between Archer and Berserker. |
Zarnaav said: Well Kirei had to choose between Archer and Berserker. What does that even mean? Kiritsugu looks like a saint in light of Kirei's betrayal. |
| Powerful eyebrows. |
| Question Tokiomi told Kariya that he gave Sakura up because he could only pass on the Tohsaka magic to one heir. But he taught Kirei and even gave him that knife to show that he'd mastered the Tohsaka family magic. Was he lying to Kariya? Have I missed something somewhere? If it involves spoilers just tell me it will make sense in the end please. |
SimmianPrime said: Question Tokiomi told Kariya that he gave Sakura up because he could only pass on the Tohsaka magic to one heir. But he taught Kirei and even gave him that knife to show that he'd mastered the Tohsaka family magic. Was he lying to Kariya? Have I missed something somewhere? If it involves spoilers just tell me it will make sense in the end please. There never was a rule or law that said that he or any magus cant teach multiple people their family's magecraft. Raising and teaching only one child become a tradition or an unspoken rule if you want to call it that.It came to exist after a lot of siblings had conflicts with each other for who would be the successor.Two of the most famous sisters in Nasuverse are known for that problem. http://myanimelist.net/character/5266/Touko_Aozaki http://myanimelist.net/character/11298/Aoko_Aozaki Tokiomi could have taught the Tohsaka secrets to both of them if he wanted to.But "tradition" and his family acquiring even more secrets through Sakura's Matou training was more important. Tokiomi giving Kirei the Azoth dagger doesnt mean that Kirei knows all of the family's secrets aka being the successor. |
cantius said: Mikasa said: Piece of shit. I swear Irisviel needs to shut the fuck up. She's annoying me more than Nina from CG. Every crappy episode includes her talking for half the episode about stuff that barely is relevant. 1/5 Rather harsh but understandable. This episode was rather dull with the exception of Gilgamesh's laugh. Looking forward to some more Berserker action. Understandable my ass. If he,maybe you too, thinks that what she says is barely relevant then it isnt a surprise that people needed to reach this ep to figure out that she isnt human. |
cantius said: Oops, I should have made myself more clear. The part about her incessant blabbering being irrelevant was definitely not true. It's quite obvious she wasn't human the first time you see her. This being an anime and her having white hair with an appearance that of a 20 year old are enough as indications in regards to her entity. Never mind my previous statement. Not every episode were crappy. But I still think this show is overrated. She could just be an albino...but anyway if the viewer needs this ep to figure out that she isnt normal... |
| And another kind of somewhat interesting character dies. Wish it was actually Kariya who killed him, that guy deserved it more :/ Also wish it was Kirei who died, but I'm not gonna go into that now. Lol at Kirei saying that neither his father nor Tokiomi could understand him. I mean wtf. It's not like even Kirei could understand himself in the first place. That's what his whole development is all about, isn't it? On a completely unrelated note, what I'm sad about is that even though the war itself is supposed to be an "organized" and abide rules, it really doesn't. I mean when even the administrator or whoever the priest is supposed to be is corrupted himself there is pretty much nothing lawful about it anymore :/ I wish this anime had that special servant class that I once read about, the Ruler class, which acts as a neutral umpire chosen by the Grail itself. Jeanne d'Arc was one herself, if I remember correctly. That would make things a lot more interesting :D |
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RazielZero said: And another kind of somewhat interesting character dies. Wish it was actually Kariya who killed him, that guy deserved it more :/ Also wish it was Kirei who died, but I'm not gonna go into that now. Lol at Kirei saying that neither his father nor Tokiomi could understand him. I mean wtf. It's not like even Kirei could understand himself in the first place. That's what his whole development is all about, isn't it? On a completely unrelated note, what I'm sad about is that even though the war itself is supposed to be an "organized" and abide rules, it really doesn't. I mean when even the administrator or whoever the priest is supposed to be is corrupted himself there is pretty much nothing lawful about it anymore :/ I wish this anime had that special servant class that I once read about, the Ruler class, which acts as a neutral umpire chosen by the Grail itself. Jeanne d'Arc was one herself, if I remember correctly. That would make things a lot more interesting :D Things being organized surely wouldnt make it more interesting. And Nasuverse laws 101:No matter what happens in a story that involves killing, shit will happenx1000. |
| so now we have the ultimate villain combo of the series? o_o |
| current LN reading: Death March kara hajimaru isekai kyousoukyoku translated here for those who are interested in other forums about animes, check randomc.net, reddit.com/r/anime and forum.animesuki.com |
| I'd say I hope Kirei dies (F/SN spoiler) Still, hard to feel any sympathy for Tokiomi though I certainly liked him better than Kirei. Mod Edit: Added spoiler tags. |
LunaMar 19, 2014 4:27 AM
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gswelcome said: I'd say I hope Kirei dies (F/SN spoiler) Still, hard to feel any sympathy for Tokiomi though I certainly liked him better than Kirei. Why would anyone feel any sympathy for Tokiomi? I guess Kirei can be understood/get pitied only by VN+LN readers. Mod Edit: Modified quote. |
LunaMar 19, 2014 4:27 AM
gswelcome said: Same here, even though Tokiomi is not a detestable character either.I'd say I hope Kirei dies (F/SN spoiler) Still, hard to feel any sympathy for Tokiomi though I certainly liked him better than Kirei. Mod Edit: Modified quote. |
LunaMar 19, 2014 4:28 AM
| My Reviews and Rants: http://bunny1ov3r.wordpress.com/ 痛就是爱 |
bunny_lover said: gswelcome said: Same here, even though Tokiomi is not a detestable character either.I'd say I hope Kirei dies (F/SN spoiler) Still, hard to feel any sympathy for Tokiomi though I certainly liked him better than Kirei. So giving away your daughter without remorse because "she will have a better mmagi life" is less detestable than knowing that you are evil and hate yourself for it? Mod Edit: Modified quote. |
LunaMar 19, 2014 4:30 AM
ssjokg said: bunny_lover said: Same here, even though Tokiomi is not a detestable character either. So giving away your daughter without remorse because "she will have a better mmagi life" is less detestable than knowing that you are evil and hate yourself for it? detestable but understandable, hence the sympathy. In his mind this carried noblest of intentions, but we have been through that. Mod Edit: Modified quote. |
LunaMar 19, 2014 4:29 AM
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Fai said: ssjokg said: bunny_lover said: Same here, even though Tokiomi is not a detestable character either. So giving away your daughter without remorse because "she will have a better mmagi life" is less detestable than knowing that you are evil and hate yourself for it? detestable but understandable, hence the sympathy. In his mind this carried noblest of intentions, but we have been through that. Mod Edit: Modified quote. I dont think that understanding the actions of someone means they earn your sympathy. If we twist thing so far then Araya,Roa,Zouken,Nrvnqsr and even Shinji could earn sympathy. That some twisted world thinks that what he did is noble it doesnt make him more sympathetic. Terrorists have some"noble" cause behind their actions as well.The Crusaders had "noble" intentions as well.Do people sympathize with them? |
ssjokg said: Fai said: ssjokg said: bunny_lover said: Same here, even though Tokiomi is not a detestable character either. So giving away your daughter without remorse because "she will have a better mmagi life" is less detestable than knowing that you are evil and hate yourself for it? detestable but understandable, hence the sympathy. In his mind this carried noblest of intentions, but we have been through that. Mod Edit: Modified quote. I dont think that understanding the actions of someone means they earn your sympathy. If we twist thing so far then Araya,Roa,Zouken,Nrvnqsr and even Shinji could earn sympathy. That some twisted world thinks that what he did is noble it doesnt make him more sympathetic. Terrorists have some"noble" cause behind their actions as well.The Crusaders had "noble" intentions as well.Do people sympathize with them? Uh yes there are people who sypathize with terrorists, most people considered terrorists by some groups are considered heroes by other groups. I have a little sypathy for Tokiomi because he is largely the product of his traditional mage family upbringing. Yes it is his fault that as an adult he never seemed to question the cruelty and stupidity of his families expectation. Still, what a sad way to go! Stabbed in the back with the blade you JUST gave to the man you entrusted to be your daughter's guardian! Damn. One thing I don't get though. If Tokiomi could only pass his family's magical style down to one child, why is it then ok to teach someone not in the family at all? |
| Love and Peace!!! |
Thund3r1 said: ssjokg said: Fai said: ssjokg said: bunny_lover said: Same here, even though Tokiomi is not a detestable character either. So giving away your daughter without remorse because "she will have a better mmagi life" is less detestable than knowing that you are evil and hate yourself for it? detestable but understandable, hence the sympathy. In his mind this carried noblest of intentions, but we have been through that. Mod Edit: Modified quote. I dont think that understanding the actions of someone means they earn your sympathy. If we twist thing so far then Araya,Roa,Zouken,Nrvnqsr and even Shinji could earn sympathy. That some twisted world thinks that what he did is noble it doesnt make him more sympathetic. Terrorists have some"noble" cause behind their actions as well.The Crusaders had "noble" intentions as well.Do people sympathize with them? Uh yes there are people who sypathize with terrorists, most people considered terrorists by some groups are considered heroes by other groups. I have a little sypathy for Tokiomi because he is largely the product of his traditional mage family upbringing. Yes it is his fault that as an adult he never seemed to question the cruelty and stupidity of his families expectation. Still, what a sad way to go! Stabbed in the back with the blade you JUST gave to the man you entrusted to be your daughter's guardian! Damn. One thing I don't get though. If Tokiomi could only pass his family's magical style down to one child, why is it then ok to teach someone not in the family at all? YEs but only by people that have something to earn by those actions.The Crusaders back then were probably heroes to the eyes of Christians.But nowadays unless you are a twisted bigot then you can see how they were wrong and the real reason behind their creation/actions. I call it karma and I am very glad about it. THere is no actual rule in the world of magi about only one child/person being taught the art of magecraft.That "tradition" was created so that siblings wont get into deadly fights for the inheritance.It just shows how full of bullshit Tokiomi(and other magi) is . Of course no matter how much Tokiomi trained Kirei, he would never give him the family crest. |
| *sigh* even with Gil's help, Kirei is still a boring character.. This episode was quite good though. |
My DeviantArt and Pixiv and still waiting patiently for a 3rd season of Spice & Wolf :'| |
| Great ep |
| Damn, the Tohsaka's are out |
| 1. So that's what the seals are for… to force heroes to commit suicide at the end for the grail. No happy ending at all 2. There is no chivalry between kiritsugu & kirei. Can't believe kirei killed his own teacher 8/10 |
| 俺の命を百合に。 Currently translating Sono Hanabira ni Kuchizuke o - Atelier no Koibito-tachi -- when bored. Above visual novel is 22.22% translated with progress uploaded to youtube; if you're into yuri VNs, check out my channel.  |
| Yamaha V-Max. One of the greatest motorcycles to come out of Japan. And they made it sound like a Harley. :( |
souledge94 said: wow gil sure does love teleporting.That must be a weird moment "yes we won after these tough battles master now we can get our wish" "yeaaaa about that imma need you to kill yourself" " "wait what?" YES!!!!! tokiomi is dead thank god.Trying to have a family moment when your such a crappy father.I feel no sympathy for this character at all. Well... Urobuchi (and actually Takeuchi too) mentioned he had difficulties portraying Tokiomi, since Rin's kindness stems from him, so he tried to make him as villainous as possible. I'd say he fulfills his role as an anti-villain well. As mentioned before, he sucks as a father, but personally, I do feel some sympathy as he is obviously "just" heavily misguided (and he thankfully died or else Rin would have tried to become a perfect magus, too). Regretfully, the only (true) explanation of his actions is only mentioned in one single POV, when he visits Rin for the last time, and the reader is left with an insufficient explanation, that neither makes him truly unsympathetic nor sympathetic (and his explanation is full of logic holes that could have been filled with more POVs). It's even worse for the anime viewer. :-/ |
C-Core said: souledge94 said: wow gil sure does love teleporting.That must be a weird moment "yes we won after these tough battles master now we can get our wish" "yeaaaa about that imma need you to kill yourself" " "wait what?" YES!!!!! tokiomi is dead thank god.Trying to have a family moment when your such a crappy father.I feel no sympathy for this character at all. Well... Urobuchi (and actually Takeuchi too) mentioned he had difficulties portraying Tokiomi, since Rin's kindness stems from him, so he tried to make him as villainous as possible. I'd say he fulfills his role as an anti-villain well. As mentioned before, he sucks as a father, but personally, I do feel some sympathy as he is obviously "just" heavily misguided (and he thankfully died or else Rin would have tried to become a perfect magus, too). Regretfully, the only (true) explanation of his actions is only mentioned in one single POV, when he visits Rin for the last time, and the reader is left with an insufficient explanation, that neither makes him truly unsympathetic nor sympathetic (and his explanation is full of logic holes that could have been filled with more POVs). It's even worse for the anime viewer. :-/ Rin did try to become a perfect magus. She did pretty much become a mini-tokiomi. If he was alive, simply whatever the outcome(either she rejects his path or follows it), it would mean her illusion of her father gets shattered which Nasu believes to be bad(will have to wait for Rin post-fifth-war visual novel/light novel that Type Moon have planned already to know for sure). Tokiomi is pretty much Rin taken to an extreme Going by the FSN prologue with what Rin remembers from her father and what is in Fate/Zero I do believe Tokiomi had the best of intentions and tried to assure both sisters survive even if he did not. The same idiotic naivety that let him trust Zouken in the end was his downfall with Kirei. I personally do not believe people stay the same forever and I do believe that if he did not meet his tragic end, even if Rin's illusion of perfect father is shattered forever, they both would still have chance to become better people(Waver did after all), even if Nasu believes that RIn would never be ale to be happy knowing what kind of person her Father was. . |
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| Do you have any actual info for the "planned" future release of that VN/LN or do you just post it for the sake of it? Rin never knew all about her father, only the Tokiomi that cared for Rin the successor (which isnt the same Tokiomi that showed zero concern about Sakura after she was taken), Nasu clearly says that. You cant say what he was actually like based on half assed memories of a back then 7 year old. Waver had a certain experience that lead him to that change. Tokiomi at his age has already learned what he wanted and should have learned(as a traditional magus). Waver was also a very different type of magus.He wasnt from a traditional family and he actually strived to prove that lineage and other shit magi base their value on arent absolute. |
| No, Rin doesn't truly try to be the perfect magus. She also has a different image of her father, which is basically what ssjokg said. She does resemble her father in some parts, but while she does hold up to the responsibilities and traditions as family head and supervisor of Fuyuki to a certain degree, she never embraces the values, ethics and views of a magus and that is a clear difference between her and her father. |
CapsuleCoreMay 25, 2014 11:39 AM
C-Core said: No, Rin doesn't truly try to be the perfect magus. She also has a different image of her father, which is basically what ssjokg said. She does resemble her father in some parts, but while she does hold up to the responsibilities and traditions as family head and supervisor of Fuyuki to a certain degree, she never embraces the values, ethics and views of a magus and that is a clear difference between her and her father. The correct assumption would be that Fifth War events made her fail in that quest. We do not know how she would turn out if Fifth war never happened. ITs quite clear that meeting Shirou had an immense effect on her as a person in all three routes. ssjokg said: Do you have any actual info for the "planned" future release of that VN/LN or do you just post it for the sake of it? Interview with kinoko nasu. When asked about how Rin feels post 5th war and questions about ubw and hf ends and what she ends up doing, Nasu asked to post-pone it till type moon announces the rin project. We do not know what it is though. It can be LN or it can be VN in style of Mahoyo, no one knows. Speculation is that it somehow has to do with the mystery cruise mentioned in HA(since Kagetsu Tohya had foreshadowing and hints for the possible path Tsukihime 2 would take) and that it will be something they will work on after Tsukihime remake is released. |
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| Look at Kaleid. Shirou has nothing to do with a hero of justice and Rin is fine.So it is clear that she wouldnt become like Tokiomi. So it is just a "we may do it, we may not" scenario.There are still 2 Mahoyo VNs, Apocrypha and the fucking Tsukihime remake. If it ever gets made, it will take too long and Rin will most likely be the same with no big changes like all the other characters in parallel works(Ilya,Caren,Luvia,even Rin)) |
ssjokgMay 25, 2014 12:46 PM
Fai said: C-Core said: No, Rin doesn't truly try to be the perfect magus. She also has a different image of her father, which is basically what ssjokg said. She does resemble her father in some parts, but while she does hold up to the responsibilities and traditions as family head and supervisor of Fuyuki to a certain degree, she never embraces the values, ethics and views of a magus and that is a clear difference between her and her father. The correct assumption would be that Fifth War events made her fail in that quest. We do not know how she would turn out if Fifth war never happened. ITs quite clear that meeting Shirou had an immense effect on her as a person in all three routes. Um, that is your assumption. You are basically claiming without meeting Shirou and the 5th War, Rin would have turned out differently, yet you say it yourself that we have no idea what Rin would have become without the 5th War. |
| Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. |
CapsuleCoreMay 25, 2014 9:12 PM
souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. |
CapsuleCoreMay 25, 2014 10:01 PM
| You know, Tokiomi doesnt seem to be worried for the citizens of Fuyuki as much a she is worried about his position as the supervisor. His reaction in two words is "Oh dear"... As for the sealing designations I already posted my thoughts on this. Why would Kariya not know about SD and AM?HE is a magus, he just left home without training. Compared to what he says to Kariya in the river battle, his "thoughts" later on seem like him trying hard to justify himself. |
souledge94 said: There is nothing anti villian like about Tokiomi.Theres nothing I can sympathise with.Hes a terrible father and never is shown to have regrets about what hes done.Nothing good or sorta good is shown through him. He's a terrible father, yes, but in his own mind, he means well and thinks he's doing the right thing and giving his daughters the best possible future. He has good intentions, but by our standards, he's kind of a monster. Note that I have no comment as to whether or not he's an anti-villain, though I would argue that he isn't even really even a villain. Antagonist maybe, but not villain. C-Core said: Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. Worth noting that they are bothered for very different reasons, and Tokiomi is bothered more by Caster's unrestrained, rampant use of magic than by his involvement of "innocents"; the novel quite plainly says mages don't care about the slaighter of a few random people for even remotely justifiable reasons. Also worth noting that Kirei has no capacity to care for anything, and Kariya is too close to death himself to care. Them aside, only Emiya and Ryuunosuke are shown to be indifferent; Kayneth is presumably bothered for the same reasons as Tokiomi, but he isn't really shown to care. souledge94 said: He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition. By the time that whole thing comes to light, he would have been too busy preparing to check. Though, for what it's worth, he probably wouldn't have bothered anyways. I think he views his daughters as heirs more than humans, though he seems to think of himself in the same way. This is why Gil thinks he's really boring. Second sentance is of course completely true. souledge94 said: .In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals. Well, not only for that reason. We cannot say how important the other factors were, but I think it's safe to say that his concern for maintaining order on his lands and such were not insignificant motivators. souledge94 said: Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. Me either, though for me it was because he totally had it coming. More noticeable in the novels, but the guy is an idiot. C-Core said: Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. I don't think we can say whether or not he has knowledge of those things. Either way is plausible, but I would imagine with the amount of time he spent in a magical household, "sealing designation" would not be an entirely unfamiliar term. ssjokg said: You know, Tokiomi doesnt seem to be worried for the citizens of Fuyuki as much a she is worried about his position as the supervisor. His reaction in two words is "Oh dear"... True, but I think his understated response is a combination of typical japanese culture and a desire to maintain a cultivated, unflappable, "in-control" image of himself. |
souledge94 said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. No im not biased.Its just I go by whats shown to me.Though I will give you he wanted caster also dead cause this stuff is all suppose to be secert and not shown to the public though again I sense no anti hero here at all.Just a prick and a bad and thankfully dead father.You wanna protect the character go right ahead but as said I judge them as I see em. Never said anti-hero. Kiritsugu is Fate/Zero's anti-hero. I said Tokiomi is an anti-villain. ssjokg said: You know, Tokiomi doesnt seem to be worried for the citizens of Fuyuki as much a she is worried about his position as the supervisor. His reaction in two words is "Oh dear"... As for the sealing designations I already posted my thoughts on this. Why would Kariya not know about SD and AM? He is a magus, he just left home without training. Well, there's that that his obvious anger is further explained because the exposure of magic. So admittedly, this more likely fits Rin's creed to not involve innocents, so yes, Tokiomi accepts smaller sacrifices in Fuyuki. I'll take that back. Still fits the anti-villain, though. About sealing designations... I know your opinion on this. As I've said, Tokiomi's logic has holes. Well, there is neither an indication that Kariya does know, nor that he does not. There isn't that much info about his knowledge, besides the worms. Then let us say he does know about all of this, he still didn't see what Tokiomi saw. Compared to what he says to Kariya in the river battle, his "thoughts" later on seem like him trying hard to justify himself. I disagree. It is for the reader to decide whether what Tokiomi thought is genuine or just a desperate attempt to convince himself that what he did was right, so again - text interpretation. In my opinion, that one POV rather gives more detail behind the meaning of his words to Kariya, when he says things like his wish to give Sakura a good future, it being a burden that Aoi gave birth to two daughters with such rare talents and the "godsend" when Zouken offered to adopt Sakura. |
C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. Well to be honest. WE KNOW how outright dangerous Sakura's potential is. We have SEEN what exceeds the worst fears of Tokiomi. souledge is not VN reader. He has no idea. At the same time he has no idea how the magus world works. Being powerful AND unique is the worst thing that can happen to a person in nasuverse. C-Core said: Um, that is your assumption. You are basically claiming without meeting Shirou and the 5th War, Rin would have turned out differently, yet you say it yourself that we have no idea what Rin would have become without the 5th War. Not assumption. Thats the point of Rin's character development in UBW route anyway. The situation that Fate/Zero sets off forces Rin on the path of having to chose greater gain over personal needs or emotional empathy. Look at her interactions with her schoolmates in the prologue for example. Look at her utterly lonely life. She is living as a heir, she is placing that and the greater needs of being a heir above her emotions. In 10 years she had to live life alone, she did not have time to grieve, she did not have capabilities not time to think about her sister that much - she was forced to discard all of that for the sake of being what she believes is worthy of Tohsaka name. At the start of VN she is completely conflicted about saving Shirou - an act that does not bring any clear gain to her. Even before it happens we see her be thoroughly unnerved by Shirou's completely selfless nature. Her choice to save him sets her onto the path of re-embracing the empathic-part of her nature. Fate Route forces her to make selfless decisions again and again, accepting that part of herself. UBW route outright clashes her blind pragmatism with Shirou's blind idealism, letting them to reach an equilibrium of sorts both HF lets her work out her issues, yet again leading to similar end. Hilariously, in all three routes Rin turns out relatively similarly, except for being better off in UBW end, since its the end that allows her to achieve true balance. ssjokg said: Look at Kaleid. Shirou has nothing to do with a hero of justice and Rin is fine.So it is clear that she wouldnt become like Tokiomi. Wrong. Shirou still has his ideal. He is just NOT as broken as in FSN. And Rin is head over heels over him. So it is just a "we may do it, we may not" scenario.There are still 2 Mahoyo VNs, Apocrypha and the fucking Tsukihime remake. If it ever gets made, it will take too long and Rin will most likely be the same with no big changes like all the other characters in parallel works(Ilya,Caren,Luvia,even Rin)) Nope. Its "we will do it". And its not parallel worlds Rin versions. Its FSN-Rin, we just don't know of which route. |
AhenshihaelMay 26, 2014 6:07 AM
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Fai said: C-Core said: souledge94 said: C-Core said: Then you must be blind to the fact that Tokiomi is one of the few magi, the other being Waver, who are seriously bothered by Caster who involved innocents in the war. He isn't fundamentally evil, his views simply don't match with Western standards (or any of the normal human societies' standards). He is misguided by the values of the magi and a horrible judge of characters. This is definitely anti-villain material. His wish for the Grail doesn't threaten anyone else either and that is another reason why Risei, besides being Tokiomi's father's friend, actually supports him. Try to take away your colored glasses and see that he tries to do good things and simply fails horribly. He doesn't show regrets because he thinks he gave Sakura a good and safe future. Not that any of this actually happened, but he didn't give her away just for family glory or anything like that. Yes, he didn't check Sakura's state and basically washed his hands of her, but it's fact he never finds out the truth, never would have imagined something like this would happen to her when he gave her away and if I didn't have any knowledge about what Zouken is doing to Sakura, I would have been baffled too why Kariya would ask me something like what he did in episode 14. While I do where glasses they are far from colored.He washed his hands of his daughter and never checked on her and never seemed to give two craps.He cares mainly about his faimily name and tradition.In the end he wanted caster dead for the extra seals.While it felt like the others who were actually fighting him wanted him dead cause caster was a very evil guy espcially saber. While not outright evil he still was a prick and a terrible father.Again I didint feel an ounce of sympathy when he died. See, that is where you seriously err. I'm not saying this because I can, it's stated in the goddamn novel. He gave her away because he felt she needed the education to defend herself because her sorcery and elemental trait does not allow her to manipulate any of the five basic elements and leaves her defenseless against non-ethereal beings. While without more information about his thoughts his logic has holes, he feared sealing designations for his daughter and that made him think she didn't have the choice to live as a normal human and was forced to become a magus. Kariya cannot (or better: does not want to, not that he actually could with his screwed mind) understand him because he doesn't see Sakura's dangerous potential, nor does he have any knowledge about sealing designations or the Mage's Association and neither do you. You want to believe he only wants Caster dead for the extra seals, but he showed concern even before this offer was made. Every magical activity in Fuyuki is his responsibility as Fuyuki's supervisor and eliminating any threat that risks involving innocents or exposes magic is his duty. So yes, your refusal to see that shows you are too biased to see something possibly good in him. I'm not talking about the Servants, it's about the Masters. You don't have to feel sympathy towards him by all means, but some of his reasons for what he did were definitely human and valid. Therefore, anti-villain definitely applies to him. souledge is not VN reader. He has no idea. At the same time he has no idea how the magus world works. Being powerful AND unique is the worst thing that can happen to a person in nasuverse. First of all, spoiler tag everything that is about FSN, please. ssjokg said: Look at Kaleid. Shirou has nothing to do with a hero of justice and Rin is fine.So it is clear that she wouldnt become like Tokiomi. Wrong. Shirou still has his ideal. He is just NOT as broken as in FSN. And Rin is head over heels over him. |
CapsuleCoreMay 26, 2014 7:27 AM
C-Core said: |
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| Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) |
Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) That wasn't directed at you, but souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not, and that was why he disagreed with me. |
CapsuleCoreMay 26, 2014 1:05 PM
C-Core said: Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) Not you, souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not and that was why he disagreed with me. |
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Fai said: C-Core said: Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) Not you, souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not and that was why he disagreed with me. |
ssjokg said: Fai said: C-Core said: Fai said: ssjokg said: Pretty much what C-Core said. There are a few things I would like to add but I would rather setup my PS4 @C-Core I never said anything about him being an anti-villain or not(Although I cant agree with his methods or respect him in any way) Not you, souledge94. I assume he thought I'm saying Tokiomi was an anti-hero, which I did not and that was why he disagreed with me. narrative-interpretation =/= speculation. If every single little bit was spelled out instead of being implied, fiction would be no different from kitsch. The good part about nasuverse and especially FSN for me is that people are not spoonfed, characters have actual depth you have to UNDERSTAND(big part of why quite a few people misinterpret Shirou) |
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| Eh no.When this "interpretation" is based on Shirou affecting Rin, it is 100% speculation. |
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