Trigun Stampede Episode 12 Discussion

Mar 30, 2023 4:58 PM

#151

ketten_krad

Offline

Sep 2022

6

a determinação do Nai me impressionou muito, fez-me lacrimejar um pouco.

Mar 30, 2023 5:02 PM

#152

CrumbleGarden

Offline

Oct 2017

67

Elinchayiel said:

Most of the stuff this season showed was actually new, as in prequel material. With that knowledge in mind its hard to call a fantastic experience like this ''rushed'', so most of the story hasnt even begun to be told.

Elinchayiel said:
The show is inspired and based on the manga source material. Which is the original source, not the OG anime show. So naturally, it will be a lot different from the anime adaptation which in itself was also different from the manga.

Elinchayiel said:
Again, this is based on the original source material, the manga. And again, the 98 version was already quite different from the source material.

I'm gonna go ahead and reply to all of these in one block. You really didn't have to use the same answer three times like I had asked the same question three times in separate replies.

Anyway, it's interesting everyone seems to use the manga as some kind of defence for poor moments in Stampede. Well I took the time to look into the manga, as I was aware of it but never took the time to read it and, to the best of my knowledge? There are actually a lot of elements Stampede is borrowing from the 98 anime, as well as things it just flat out changed for Stampede. There is definitely more of the manga there, but this defence that because it's pulling more from the manga so it's okay to be so dissimilar? I don't think that's good enough.

A single google search of Livio for instance indicates pretty clearly he's quite different in Stampede than the manga in design. I'm actually more irritated at Stampede now because he CLEARLY had a more gunslinger look to him, but now he has a suit and a half on mask. I don't think there's any manga source for that one.

The first few episodes adapt the first few chapters of the manga yes, much like the 98 anime did. Though in fact Stampede is actually even more different from the manga than the 98 anime, as Knives does not show up in the manga to destroy the town. And E.G Mine wasn't involved either. To add onto this, that definitely didn't take place in some kind of prequel in the manga where Vash could barely shoot his own gun, considering Milly and Meryl were with him in the manga, and were both insurance agents, not reporters.

And this is just from a cursory examination, I'm fairly sure the sand steamer is considerably different from the manga too just from a glance. This stuff is new, but it's not because it's directly from the manga, it's changing quite a bit! And I specifically brought it up in relation to the 98 anime, because the common argument I've seen going around is that Stampede is a prequel to that, when it is adapting events that also show up in the 98 anime! Unless there's some very weird deja-vu going on, it's very clearly not. If this is a Trigun maximum thing I may take this back.

Elinchayiel said:
Yeah with no memory, having added the guilt of killing his brother and wiping out an entire town. Wait, what? Saying he's going to continue being the same is too ignorant.

You know I will apologise here, I didn't make this point very clear in my initial post. This was mostly in terms of Vash's personality in this version, a more somber, quiet, restrained and passive character. Stampede has failed to assure me, at least, that any future Vash will be closer to the one from the 98 anime, or the manga. That was more what I meant, obviously he has moved places in Stampede and the memory and 'killing Knives' will have an impact, but I've yet to believe they'll be a positive impact on his character.

Elinchayiel said:
98 anime Knives was a shallow character compared to the source material, or this show's version.

Won't argue this point too much, he was a little shallow and more a force of nature behind the other antagonists like Legato. But Stampede Knives I think is still off base from the manga, most likely? I at least haven't seen any panels of him monologuing about how he's like God, wearing a big ominous hood like an artist's first villainous character design and playing evil piano.

Elinchayiel said:
They seem to trust it a great deal if they went through this level of effort in the show's production, despite some very controversial outlash from ''fans'' prior to release.
They also seem to have a great trust for the audience to be moved by the experience and be able to grasp the subtles in play in their style of ''show, dont tell''.
In this show you can tell what a character is thinking by the way they respond with their models and visual cues ranging from overblown to very minute.
That requires trusting the audience to be able to spot those cues. Most anime will instead just flat out say everything, since its fools proof.

This is actually taking the original part of my argument out of context, thank you. I was originally talking about how Stampede lacks tension because it can't let events sit and let the audience ruminate and just puts reveals down as soon as possible so no-one is left to think about it. Revealing Wolfwood's allegiances in his introductory episode implies either they expect you to be familiar with Trigun by the manga or the 98 anime, and it means there's no tension anymore because now we just know. There's no rewatch bonus with now knowing Wolfwood's allegiances and having a second look at his actions, THAT is what I was talking about.

I'm honestly not going to comment on the 'subtleties' thing because if you can see that, good on you, but I'm also pretty sure Stampede still spells out quite a lot for its audience, Knives still monologues a lot.

Elinchayiel said:
Smells like bs, to me. From what ive seen many reactions to the show were ''it keeps me excited every week, waiting to see what comes next''.
It makes sense they give more hooks in this final episode. Its the final episode of a season after all. Having ''sequal bait'' is merely the smart thing to do.

That's on a week to week basis and, yeah you're obviously going to see more people coming here to say 'it's good'. What I'm more talking about is appeasement. Vash's redesign caused a stir, as did Milly's exclusion. By promising that these things will be amended in Season 2, I don't see that as sequel bait, but as an attempt to win back the fans they annoyed by changing it. I can't say for sure this is what it is because intent is hard to gleam, but it's interesting that the two big complaints most had besides the CGI will be 'fixed' as long as you tune in for a second season.

Elinchayiel said:
The 98 anime was filled with filler episodes, so ofcourse this show will feel ''rushed'' when all the fat is trimmed down. As someone that has read a 180,000+ pages novel series I will still tell you that stories are better without filler. Why? Because the quality will be higher.

Ah yes, the devil's word in anime 'filler.' I know there's this consensus on the internet that filler automatically equals bad, but I'm gonna go to bat that sometimes it's really not all that bad and trying to dismiss the 98 anime for using it is shortsighted.

Filler is only really bad when it takes away from the work, when it's derailing plots and characters. Trigun's first tenure is more episodic in nature, so the filler content really isn't as bad as some make it out to be. All the episodes still work into the series' overarching themes, atmosphere and characters. It's a great introduction to the world and the characters and the plot kicks in a few episodes later. There's nothing wrong with it being filler.
Unless your definition of filler is just 'not from the source material', in which case I'd just ask why you're using something they had no material for against the show. Like what were they meant to do, just stop adapting halfway through?

And if that is your definition, could you point me to the chapter where they're stuck in the worm please? Or the chapter about Monev being a child in a cyborg's body? Genuinely I'd like to know if I missed that one.

Elinchayiel said:
It's just a hairstyle in the end. If you really think THAT is the most important aspect of Trigun, I kind of question how much of a fan you even are. Well, aside from already questioning it seeing how you seem to believe the 98 anime is the ''original source'', and believe this is based on it, rather then on the actual original, aka the manga.

Yeah can you point to where I said either, Vash's hair is the most important aspect of Trigun, or, the 98 manga is the OG source, please? Big assuming of intent there. The hair thing is more related to the viewer complaints thing above, and as others have pointed out, the hair was an important link to Rem. An aspect dropped in Stampede, without even a change relating to Vash's new hairstyle. It turning spiky in the last episode again just looks like viewer appeasement, or being more charitable, a cheeky reference. I'm well aware the anime isn't the original source, but there is a reason that it and the manga were popular enough to warrant a remake a good 20 years later.

Elinchayiel said:
At this point all yourself and other 98' diehard fans are doing is forcing people to realise how much better this show is then the 98 anime..
Whereas if you were more forthcoming and accepting of this show, I think people would also recommend watching that one. Instead of coming to the conclusion that ''oh wait, this show is actually way better..''

When you turn it into a war between two shows, people are going to compare them, and sorry to say to you but the 98 show (which is now 25 years old) is at a huge disadvantage here. It lacks the incredible visuals or OST of this show. And it had too much filler, where this show has none.

You guys shot yourselves in the foot by hating this show..

More assuming of intent here. The comparisons are inevitable, it's not some attempt to start a conflict just because some of us don't have praise for Stampede. The 98 anime is still a cult classic for a reason, so when you say you're going to redo it, that is just going to draw comparison no matter what.

And here's the thing. Even setting the 98 anime aside, even setting the manga aside? I still think Stampede is just a bad show on its own merits. I went into Stampede wanting to like it, I didn't go in with some intent to bash it or call out every frame where it's not just the 98 anime again. I sat down, I watched all of it, and concluded I increasingly didn't like it and don't think it's good. I don't have much to say about the CGI honestly, I don't think it's bad, but I don't think it's a style that's particularly great either. I barely remember the soundtrack from Stampede at all, I genuinely would struggle to recall the melody to a single track because it's just not there. That's the long and short of it. The idea that because some of us dislike an adaptation and make that known, that we've somehow made the 98 version look worse is frankly, ridiculous and I have no idea where that notion came from.

I'm glad you like Stampede. I know I just wrote a very long reply seemingly to the contrary, but cards on the table, good for you. That's fine.
Also thanks, feeling a need to make my argument a little clearer and refute some things helped me get the knack for formatting right again, so cheers for that.

Mar 30, 2023 7:03 PM

#153

phokingjoke

Offline

Oct 2018

3

man i hope there's gonna be a 2nd season

edit: just checked, lets gooooo

Mar 30, 2023 9:49 PM

#154

rikiki109

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Jan 2022

248

Holy shit, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit. Orange really fucking showed off this episode, it was beautiful. It had a lot of emotions, the music was perfect and Knives being shown at the end is very exciting for the season 2, hype !

I like everything, ok

Mar 31, 2023 8:52 AM

#155

Pear-san

Offline

Mar 2019

43

Kolopauy said:
Badlands Rumble is still the best Trigun anime.

Stop trolling.

I'm pretty sure you posted this the other day. Stampede is not even done yet.

Mar 31, 2023 12:33 PM

#156

Elinchayiel

Offline

Sep 2018

258

CrumbleGarden said:
I'm glad you like Stampede. I know I just wrote a very long reply seemingly to the contrary, but cards on the table, good for you. That's fine.
Also thanks, feeling a need to make my argument a little clearer and refute some things helped me get the knack for formatting right again, so cheers for that.

Wait, do you mean to say you actually wrote good arguments? I have to admit I already presumed you wouldnt so I only read your last line. Let me check quickly!

Sigh. I got jebaited. Even just a quick skim through already shows, that ironically you dont have good arguments. You just wrote a reply to everything for the sake of being contrarian.
I'm not going to bother to reply to it all (uncharacteristically, since I tend to argue with most people), since your arguments just deflect the criticism and shift the goalpost.

CrumbleGarden said:
Won't argue this point too much, he was a little shallow and more a force of nature behind the other antagonists like Legato. But Stampede Knives I think is still off base from the manga, most likely? I at least haven't seen any panels of him monologuing about how he's like God, wearing a big ominous hood like an artist's first villainous character design and playing evil piano.

Like here.

''well you are right, but actually I will say that you arent.. because.. I dont want to agree with anything you write?''
"so im just going to find some issue to create here so you are actually wrong! hah!''

This level is not worth my time. I assume you are what, a high school or college level debater? Perhaps your form is good, but it is not form that decides whether an argument is stronger.
There is no jury to influence here. It is just the strength of the arguments you wield.

I will give you a protip:

There is no shame in saying someone is right. In fact by admitting someone makes a good point, if you have a wide enough perspective, you can incorporate their point into your own and fire it back at them. What you instead did here, was weaken my argument by barely refering to it. Which in turn also weakened your attempt to counter it. Which in itself was also a poor attempt as you focused on the presumed weakness of Stampede, rather then outlining the advantage of the OG show. It is easier to impress by showing what one does better, then by showing what another does worse.
So what if Stampede were to do something bad? That doesnt mean Trigun did it well either.

The more effective counter is not when you can say ''well yes, but actually'' but when you can say '' yes, and wouldnt it be better if that we also included..''
Instead of a ''but, no'', a ''but, also''

By doing that you display that you understand and agree with the point the opposition has. While at the same time offering a wider, perspective. As it incorporates their argument, it is equal to it. As it adds onto it, it becomes greater then it. You beat them by being better at their own argument, except its yours now, and its better. This is also pretty much the only way you can win if you start out with a losing argument like you did.

For example in this case your argument could have been:

Indeed. Knives in the OG anime was quite (rather then little, dont downplay!) shallow and more a force of nature behind the other antagonists like Legato. Certainly, in terms of terms of depth he is a much greater character in Stampede. However, Stampede's Knives depiction while having more depth, is not quite all that manga Knives is. He lacks aspects of the character that don't perse give him more depth, but do make him ''truer to the source'', more like the character the mangaka intended for him to be. Aspects that Trigun or the manga did have. Especially now that Knives has such depth to him, its even more of a shame that he does not also have these aspects of his character. Then he truly would be the Best Knives. Does Stampede's Knives have more value purely because he his more depth? For an anime only viewer, I would certainly say so. However my perspective is that of a source material reader and as such I find him missing these aspects, dispappointing. He is great, but be could have been so more.

He is great, but be could have been so more.

So like that, kind of. Well it was a short write up so its not exactly amazing either. By my standards, anyway.

I hope that was helpful for you. You seem to need the help. If you were to make arguments that way, it would be a lot easier to convince people.

Why dont I do that? Now that is something I might actually have a hard time answering..

“Ha ha, the synergy between my left and right hand made them feel scared.” Ye Xiu said.

Apr 1, 2023 3:50 PM

#157

MonadoBoy_02

Offline

Oct 2021

1

Everything was perfect

Apr 1, 2023 6:13 PM

#158

CrumbleGarden

Offline

Oct 2017

67

Indeed. Knives in the OG anime was quite (rather then little, dont downplay!) shallow and more a force of nature behind the other antagonists like Legato. Certainly, in terms of terms of depth he is a much greater character in Stampede. However, Stampede's Knives depiction while having more depth, is not quite all that manga Knives is. He lacks aspects of the character that don't perse give him more depth, but do make him ''truer to the source'', more like the character the mangaka intended for him to be. Aspects that Trigun or the manga did have. Especially now that Knives has such depth to him, its even more of a shame that he does not also have these aspects of his character. Then he truly would be the Best Knives. Does Stampede's Knives have more value purely because he his more depth? For an anime only viewer, I would certainly say so. However my perspective is that of a source material reader and as such I find him missing these aspects, dispappointing. He is great, but be could have been so more.

So what you're saying is, if the opinion I held happened to just, not be my opinion anymore, my argument would be inherently superior?

Well gosh it's all so simple now, why didn't I think of that?

Apr 2, 2023 12:49 PM

#159

killa46k

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Mar 2021

1

amazing amazing amazing

Apr 2, 2023 7:35 PM

#160

ShinyBunnie

Offline

May 2021

10

OST: great
Animation: lovely
Story: very enjoyable

I really liked this one.
Time to rewatch it again I guess :)

Also, pretty neat that the title of the episode matches up with chapter 0 of the manga.

ShinyBunnieApr 3, 2023 4:51 AM

Apr 2, 2023 7:52 PM

#161

WolfWood37

Offline

Jul 2008

10882

NEEDLE NOGGIN!!!!!!!!!! MILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Had to say that first, so this series was kinda a prequel in a sense but not really. I give this an 8/10 can't wait for season 2.

Apr 3, 2023 2:23 PM

#162

Nikoslovescoffee

Offline

Feb 2020

398

Man Knives death was metal as Hell! I cant believe they name dropped Millie!
Honestly, this is the kind of reboot that I love. Different enoughtto justify it's existence but not different to the point of being unrecognizable from what came before.
I legit hope that we'll get to see more of this continuity.

Apr 4, 2023 10:51 AM

#163

ModestMouseTrap

Offline

Apr 2023

2

An absolute masterpiece of anime television. Improving on and complimenting the original series and manga in so many ways.

Truly a staggering achievement.

CANNOT wait for season 2.

Apr 4, 2023 12:18 PM

#164

JedanKomad

Offline

Mar 2021

1486

I don't know man, Knives was spot on about "Vash the Stampede" - THAT'S THE BEST HE CAME UP WITH AFTER MORE THAN A CENTURY?!?

Vash's reasoning for saving humanity is absolutely shallow. Truly felt like it was an intended comedic moment. Knives' arguments are much better (writing wise)

Pretty spectacular looking episode all the way through. Great as a season finale

The duel scenes between Knives and Vash were so fun with the dynamic cameras

Knives' determination about his plan is pretty damn formidable. His final moments were pretty great

Overall, idk, the production was amazing, some characters are pretty interesting, Vash is very hit or miss, plot absolutely sped up near the end and got quite confusing. Solid anime but it has it's flaws

JedanKomadApr 4, 2023 12:26 PM

Anime fuckin sucks by the way

Apr 5, 2023 6:40 AM

#165

ModestMouseTrap

Offline

Apr 2023

2

Fojkop said:

ModestMouseTrap said:
An absolute masterpiece of anime television. Improving on and complimenting the original series and manga in so many ways.

Truly a staggering achievement.

CANNOT wait for season 2.

Did you create an alt just for this?

An Alt? What?

This is my first MAL account. I clicked the ratings button for episode 12 and wrote a little blurb to go along with my five star rating. Didn’t realize that it would be published to a forum post.

What’s it to you?

Apr 5, 2023 2:53 PM

#166

mattisz

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Nov 2019

1

made me fall in love with anime again

Apr 5, 2023 11:02 PM

#167

Myri14

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Apr 2023

3

Maravilloso. Me encantó absolutamente todo. No puedo esperar la segunda temporada.

Apr 7, 2023 2:13 AM

#168

excalibur977436

Offline

Mar 2010

171

The show started off on the weak foot and everything felt directionless, boring even, that is, until we entered the second half of the season. Things started to make sense, character exploration happening, plot moving forward. It was gripping, serious, and expanded on its world. And final the finale, Goddamn, that was fucking amazing from a visual standpoint. All these people calling this bad or average need to get off their innate hate of this retelling and CGI in general.

Weak first half, amazing second part. Can't wait for the sequel. 8/10

Apr 7, 2023 3:53 AM

#169

dio9_by

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Sep 2022

21

It was more than awesome, I loved the fight where a very light, fine line shown about modern civilization and humanity!, nai was right by his side as they will never be able to slave again, he fought for peace for both of them.
Vash indeed choose to be with human but sure, they will not accept them that easily even might be end up as the punisher.

Apr 8, 2023 5:31 PM

#170

sophyou

Offline

Mar 2022

1

What a masterpiece, amazing animation, symbolism, and soundtrack throughout the entire show. Studio orange absolutely killed it

Apr 9, 2023 9:10 AM

#171

desuminator

Offline

Dec 2008

150

That was a great episode, I doubt the sutdio would be able to pull this off in 2d. I wonder what the sequel will bring.
I know this series was announced as a reboot, but since I watched only couple of episodes of the original, the last episode left me with the feeling that it is a kinda-sorta prequel on top of being a remake of the original series. Meryl at the beginning is a reporter(if I recall correctly) and at the end learns she will be moved to the Insurance, also, she is getting a trainee, Milly. It left me with a bit of a mindfuck, to such a degree that I had to rewatch the 1st ep of the old series to get out that feeling out of the system. If I were to put on a tinfoil hat and squint hard enough, then both series maaaaay be connected in some kind of convoluted fan theory of Vash having memory loss after the fight and Meryl not being certain what she sees, because she might have been certain Vash's death. On the other hand, that's mumbling of someone who watched only a portion of the original years ago.

Apr 9, 2023 9:49 AM

#172

lanadelslay

Offline

Apr 2019

84

I haven't seen the original anime, and I don't read manga so I can't compare this to them but I thoroughly enjoyed this anime. Orange did a brilliant job, especially compared to that trash Godzilla Singular Point they also made. The animation and the music were on point throughout this entire show. Hopefully there's more to come from Trigun Stampede in the future.

Apr 9, 2023 9:33 PM

#173

MyNameIsAj

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Feb 2021

2

Very sad. 10/10 would recommend.

Apr 11, 2023 9:09 AM

#174

matsuokakira

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May 2020

1

YO I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT TO FEEL RN WHAT JUST HAPPENED

Apr 17, 2023 6:23 PM

#175

Sonson7

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May 2020

275

CrumbleGarden said: