86--EIGHTY-SIX (light novel)
daxota_weeb69 said: love how half the comment section is just poking fun at his opinion lmaoAs a matter of fact, CDawgVA, doesn't like 86. He mentioned it in a Trash Taste episode. If you don't know CDawg, he's an ani-tuber who barely talks abt anime but here's the video https://youtu.be/Qk6-T5_my6o |
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daxota_weeb69 said: I guess you could say Connor has trash taste.As a matter of fact, CDawgVA, doesn't like 86. He mentioned it in a Trash Taste episode. If you don't know CDawg, he's an ani-tuber who barely talks abt anime but here's the video https://youtu.be/Qk6-T5_my6o |
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DoobieSam said: Honestly have to agree with the part of not really caring much about the other 86. I still don't really care about them now. There are definitely some things I don't care for about this series, but part 1 was a strong 8/10 and I think part 2 is gonna be a 9/10 for me. I feel like the cast is what holds the show back. Shin is a really interesting character, but imo the rest of the 86 have paper-thin depth. I also don't care for Milize, but that's more personal preference. I just get big Hillary Clinton energy from her(don't come for me simps). The action sequences are well done, but I feel like they get kind of "muddy" sometimes, and it's difficult to follow. Maybe that's just me. Problem with Season 1 for me was that there was too many characters. |
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Malik637 said: Well that's literally obvious init mate .... people who didn't like it are those who don't like mecha or got little bored because of all the talk and shit .....God-_- said: what are you talking about when did I ever show a lack of understanding of an opinion. I stated my opinion then acknowledged a contrasting opinion and simply expressed I was curious of the rationale of the contrasting opinion. I don’t get why people like you actively try to bring hostility into conversations where none is present. Stop equating someone expressing their opinion as them denying all others and you will be much happier in life, have a good day sir.Well ever heard about something called “opinions” mate I liked the s1 a lot but dropped after watching some episodes of s2 but leave it |
Bruh-__-Jan 7, 2022 7:47 PM
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| This thing literally got the best story of anything I've watched except Vinland Saga, AoT and Re:Zero. Whoever says its ass either haven't watched it or are just being asses. |
Malik637 said: Eighty-Six had been in my opinion one of the best shows in 2021 thematically and character wise .... Sorry if my answer isn't going in-depth about the series, but for me personally 86 has been a poor series due to a worldbuilding painted in the broadest and shallowest shades of good (young) people vs bad (old) people, the war and the racism aren't well tied to the narrative nor explored despite being major plot points in the first cour, the cgi looks consinstently hideous, characters and themes don't really bring anything new to the genre which isn't a problem per se but even treading on familiar grounds 86 doesn't do anything interesting with its tropes, and Aniplex management is a shitshow so, even though I can't blame the animators for their inhuman, slave-like work schedule, the quality has dropped so much compared to the first episodes that I can't even call this a well made show anymore. It's an okay series and I can see people relate to and being thrilled by it, I just think it's more forgettable than entertaining. Also for some reason Sawano decided to make the music sound like a weird rip-off of Sawano, which is just sad when I feel like sleeping during his sick drops. |
| To be fair, what made the first season is the storytelling, an episode usually goes like this, it will start with Lena’s perspective whom is on alban’s side then switch to Shin’s perspective whom is on the 86 side on second part of episode. That kind of storytelling is what makes the series engaging because first we get to see how the two sides contrasts with each other, we see how albans are well sheltered in their safe havens and then once the focus switches on 86 side we see them fighting in front line and dying one by one. It also a makes the interaction between 2 sides interesting, we saw Lena talking to the 86 when suddenly one of 86 gets mad at lena and the reason will be revealed once the focus switches on 86 side retelling the same scene in their perspective. And watching Lena lead and earn the respect of Shin’s group as she work with them is also what makes you want to follow along. Season 2 however don’t have that kind of storytelling, gone are the two perspective storytelling, we saw shin’s group leave san magnolia, so now it just focuses on Shin’s group, don’t get me wrong but it just feels like the series has been degraded of what made the series engaging in the first place. |
jestynJan 9, 2022 6:31 AM
| How to say you didn't watch the show without saying you didn't watch the show? Valefor said: LOL[...] the cgi looks consinstently hideous [...] Or is it that this kid watches the shows at 3.0x speed and therefore doesn't understand shit? I wouldn't be surprised to see that he has completed 1980 anime series, holy shit.  |
Malik637 said: Eighty-Six had been in my opinion one of the best shows in 2021 thematically and character wise and will probably end up in my top 10 if it keeps going how it’s been. I was just curious to why the opinions on this show seem to be so polarized. There are some shows where I can see you either love it or you hate it but for me I haven’t really seen any glaring mishaps so far I could understand why someone doesn’t think it’s great but don’t really see the “it’s bad” perspective. Usually this comes from shows that are rather intricate and don’t have the flashy aesthetics of mainstream shows, but Eighty-Six has good animation, some of the best production I’ve seen in a while, with great sound tracks and cinematography, and even the CGI battle scenes I don’t mind at all and can be quite good. So I don’t really see that argument so I’m just curious to the reasons people think this show is so boring and not good. the story and characters themselves are just ok-good and nothing more. the reason you think they are great, iis because of how amazing the writing and directing is. but a lot of people don't care about those aspects as much as the actual story. think about it like this, this is not the re:zero of it's type, it's the mushoku tensei. it's not a never seen before story with a ton of different plot points, twists and shock value, it's just a good story with amazing writing. and to some people that is not as interesting. also the show is dialogue heavy, so a lot of people, specially the people who watch it subbed might get bored because of that as well. I mean I kind of did, but that went away when I switched to the dub. |
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
Malik637 said: Apolygon2 said: the story and characters themselves are just ok-good and nothing more. the reason you think they are great, iis because of how amazing the writing and directing is. but a lot of people don't care about those aspects as much as the actual story. think about it like this, this is not the re:zero of it's type, it's the mushoku tensei. it's not a never seen before story with a ton of different plot points, twists and shock value, it's just a good story with amazing writing. and to some people that is not as interesting. also the show is dialogue heavy, so a lot of people, specially the people who watch it subbed might get bored because of that as well. I mean I kind of did, but that went away when I switched to the dub. I don’t exactly know what you mean in reference to the characters what else could they do well other than be written well. But I do understand and didn’t really think about the usual lack of appreciation for character driven shows and heavy dialogue like this and Monogatari. It’s funny though because I would think it shares more of re:zeros fanbase but it does has 2 different sides I would say there are some ppl who just like it for the basic generic isekai traits but it is also very well written and intricate like eighty six while mushoko tensei is way more plot driven than the other 2 I enjoy it but the characters or themes aren’t anything major. But yeah I enjoy dialogue heavy shows so that makes sense good points. ok so here's How i see the difference between well written, and good story/characters. if a story is good, I should be able to tell it as an average person and it still be interesting if not just as good as it was. a well written story on the other hand, is not necessarily like that. but it is so well told that it doesn't matter. basically the story is how good well, the story is. and the writing is how good the author is at writing it. the story is the joke, the writing is how funny the comedian is as a person. the story is the food recipe, and the writing is how good the chef is at cooking it. that's why I made the re;zero and mushoku tensei comparison. re zero as a story is more complex, more eventful, more original, has more character development, has more world building and more social commentary. meanwhile mushoku tensei has very subtle and minimum character and plot development, very little shock value, nothing really too original, and it still manages to be more highly rated, even though it gets a lot of hate for it's main character. why do you think is that? I mean you could say that ratings don't mean anything, and I would totally agree, but not when it's to this degree. re:zero should be way more highly rated based on the amount of things it does. but it's not, and it is simply because of the writing not being nearly as good, even though the story is much better. if re zero was as well written as mushoku tensei and had the same story, it would easily be in the top 25 if not top 10 or top 5 of mal. |
APolygons2Jan 10, 2022 6:39 PM
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
Malik637 said: Eighty-Six had been in my opinion one of the best shows in 2021 thematically and character wise and will probably end up in my top 10 if it keeps going how it’s been. I was just curious to why the opinions on this show seem to be so polarized. There are some shows where I can see you either love it or you hate it but for me I haven’t really seen any glaring mishaps so far I could understand why someone doesn’t think it’s great but don’t really see the “it’s bad” perspective. Usually this comes from shows that are rather intricate and don’t have the flashy aesthetics of mainstream shows, but Eighty-Six has good animation, some of the best production I’ve seen in a while, with great sound tracks and cinematography, and even the CGI battle scenes I don’t mind at all and can be quite good. So I don’t really see that argument so I’m just curious to the reasons people think this show is so boring and not good. "I like this show and I cannot see why people don't?" Yeah no fucking shit, of course you can't see sense if you're on the wrong side of it. It's written by a moron without even the vaguest sense of how to do characterisation, conflict or story, and don't even get me started on the absence of theme. The anime makes no effort to improve upon this, with the dullest of art and music, and incredibly lazy acting and direction. Do explain how you come to your converse, bizarre opinion. |
| Well I for one already loved Lain. |
| I honestly like how the storytelling goes, the animation is very well done especially with the CGI, and it's solid show as an overall, just need to understand more of the political aspects I guess and despite the hiatuses with the broadcast, I really don't mind for a wait. |
Malik637 said: You sound pretentious, slow your roll a bit I said I couldn’t understand not because of what side I stood on but because the other side often gave poor reasoning like you are now that come from a lack of even attempting to understand the show. And you're starting straight off with the assumptions and Straw Men. "Pretention" and "poor reasoning" are pulled completely out of your arse. These are just empty insults without justification. Verify both of these claims. The same is the case with "a lack of even attempting to understand the show." How the fuck do you expect to know what I have and have not attempted to do? Your entire point here is a case of you pretending anyone who disagrees with you must automatically not understand what they're talking about, whilst you yourself are unable to demonstrate how. That's a logical fallacy. I’m not saying it’s perfect because after talking to some more reasonable people on this thread I see some deficiencies I’ve overlooked but you’re just rambling. Once again, fallacies. Poisoning the well, by insinuating others are "more reasonable," again that's an unverified claim, and saying I'm "rambling," when what you really mean is you don't want to listen to me. You are trying to dismiss my points rather than confront them. I’ve acknowledged that the plot is a bit lackluster due to it being a more character driven show but it’s still not bad by any means. And here's an actual case of not understanding the subject at hand. A story being character-driven in no way precludes the plot of the work. It refers only to when the major instigators of the story's progress are its participants. In fact, the term becomes moot after a point, as the best works balance being character-driven and theme-driven at once. Of course, 86 is neither. So, your attempting to excuse the plot issues as "due to being character-driven" are nonsensical. As is your claim "it's still not bad by any means," that's just a blanket dismissal. "I admit it's bad for this reason, but it's still not bad." That's just being ignorant. You have to be blind to say there is no themes in this story from the first season I noticed the existential dilemma in the Eighty-Six in their struggle to find purpose in their lives where a purpose was forced on them and their battle to move forward and fight for their own ideals. Also in the first season Milena’s characterization of humanities hypocrisy and her journey to find her own sense of righteousness by opening her eyes and not taking the easy way out by choosing to do what’s logically correct over what’s morally correct. Except none of these are demonstrably present, since the story directly goes against nigh-all of what you've suggested. The 86 folk fail at forming their own ideals, they're complacent with a bastardised version of what is forced upon them. Milena has nothing to do with humanity's hypocrisy, and certainly not "characterised" as such - do elaborate on what you think the term means. It sounds more like you're retrofitting what you feel the themes should be over a work that fails at actually presenting their own. I can't say that for certain, as that would be presumptive, but there're clear issues when comparing your interpretation with the text itself. The overarching themes of war and racism and the depiction of the disregard of values that arise in war times that led to the continued racism. The characters are often shown knowing what is morally the correct option but not being brave enough to shoulder the danger and risk of choosing the right choice over the smart choice. Those again just aren't the themes. The setting of a war does not automatically translate to that being the theme of a work, especially since "war" is such a nebulous concept it's absurd to point to it as a whole. The "disregard of values" point is especially nonsensical, as it conflicts directly with what you thought the themes were just above. Once again, it appears more as though you're scraping the story for what you could point to as a theme, despite such things not being the actual focus of the story. In season 2 Shin’s character is built on and you can see his conflicts rooted in nihilism and stoicism in the fact that he is always left behind to carry on the burden of his sense of justice as the reaper even though he doesn’t feel it’s fair for him to shoulder the burden he continues to because it’s what he thinks is right. He’s never thought about himself and his own goals because he has none, he has no desire other than finishing what he started which so greatly mirrors the military officials who give into their desires rather than staying true to their sense of justice. This creates his suicidal tendencies because he knows his sense of justice will bring him no happiness in life but he is burdened with carrying it out. Death would be a release from his obligation as a reaper and the cruel desolate world he experienced. And now this entire point simply needs examining Shin's character, or, rather, lack of one. Since the beginning, Shin has been an inconsistent mess of shallow traits. He's not "nihilist," or "stoic," he's a cliché shoved in to sell copies of the damned book. As you correctly say, he has no goals or personal desires, he's a non-person. But you make non-sequitur after non-sequitur from that, again none of which is demonstrably the case. And once more this conflicts with what you thought the themes were above. What you think about Shin contradicts with what you think about the 86, which contradicts with what you think about Milena. That's precisely the issue I was pointing to, the story cannot decide what it wants to be, even assuming your interpretation of it wasn't down to your own predilections about stories of this sort. I could go on about Frederica and Raiden and a lot more but I don’t feel like typing for an hour. I don't care what you feel like doing, if you have something to add, add it, or leave it out entirely. You can hold your criticisms about this show and I’ve acknowledged some but to say the show has no themes or characterization maybe you should reassess just how you interpret media or if you are even capable of it. Just because you can’t grasp something doesn’t mean nobody can. Once again, you're unjustly assuming you cannot be at fault, that everyone else is wrong. That's defensive, illegitimate and fallacious. If you simply look at the work in as much of a vacuum as possible, as I have done, it is clear that 86 struggles to present any type of meaningful story, due in no small part due to the author's lack of talent. I should also point out that your entire response is tangential, since even if you were correct about what you've highlighted, you're ignoring everything else I've listed as critical flaws to the show. |
| Well I for one already loved Lain. |
Malik637 said: Firstly yes it is pretentious for some average anime watcher on a MAL forum to go on a rant about how an author who is all more successful than them clearly has some merit in the LN since it was animated and you know for a fact that a show like 86 would not have its high MAL rating considering the nature of its show.. Now you're just being doubly idiotic. First of all, you have no way to know how successful I am, and it's completely irrelevant if I am or am not more so than Asato Asato. I don't need to have greater societal status than someone to point out their issues. Second, to say that "it clearly has some merit since it was animated and has a high score" is just wrong. All sorts of mediocre bullshit gets animated - just look at any Isekai for instance. Getting adapted is not some mark of prowess. The same is the case for ratings, that's just an Argumentum ad Populum, a fallacy. People do not naturally gravitate to the correct view in large amounts. It "thriving on MAL" is completely irrelevant. It’s already a mecha show with CGI and it action based it would never thrive on MAL if it didn’t have its share of substance. It’s not a demon slayer or jujutsu kaisen where animation and good fight scenes can just get it a good score so you have to recognize there is something that this show brings which you ignore. Again, no. Argumentum ad Populum. High scores and "thriving on MAL" do not equate to objective quality. Again I call you pretentious because you immediately claim that I’m on the wrong side of the topic when in the first place there isn’t a distinguishable line because it’s a subjective topic so obviously there are going to be differing opinions yet you make the presumption that you are on the right side immediately may I know why that is? It's not a subjective topic. That's another assumption of yours. I call you pretentious because you came into the forum calling a piece of media trash saying it has no value and stated that you are already right when you have 0 credibility more than anybody else on this forum yet you are acting like it I asked for pieces of criticism and you came in merely saying “you’re wrong this show sucks how could you ever think it’s good it’s not because I say so” I never said it's bad "because I say so." It's not relevant who says so, it's not relevant how much "credibility" you think I have. What matters is the truth of the points presented by either side, not assuming whoever has "more credibility" is right. I can tell what you have and haven’t attempted to do because you state the show has no themes no meaning whatsoever which is just stupid every show has some type of theme or message even if it’s badly displayed or barely prevalent it exists so for you to say there is absolutely nothing means you aren’t even attempting to look. No. Not every show has a theme. Theme is something that requires work to uphold, not something that just appears naturally. Theme is about what the creator has to say about the human condition, how they see the world they inhabit and what philosophical conclusions they've drawn from both. Every individual choice about the work is driven by this, every sentence, every line of dialogue is there with reason. Why is the cast comprised of these particular people, with these particular personalities and stories? Why are the conflict and setting of the work what they are? The creative process is all about making these questions work together, about making sure everything informs and is informed by everything else. When a work such as 86 comes along, whose various artistic decisions are so wildly conflicting with each other it's hasty to even call them such, that's a work with no theme. What should be permeating through every single word and sentence is instead the dazed, incomplete ideas of an amateur. One cannot find the aim the creator had with their making the story. If there is nothing to find, no matter how hard one looks, they won't find it. This is why I said later that it appeared more as though you were trying to retroactively apply a theme to the work rather than actually looking at the piece critically. It’s one thing to argue about the effectiveness of the delivery and message but to say there is nothing is lazy. First, see above, what cannot be delivered cannot be seen to be present. How can one evaluate the effectiveness of how you are given a message, if it's done so badly the message never gets to you? Second, no, it's not lazy. It's a concrete, demonstrable statement. No I’m not dismissing your points I’m just showing how the difference in people that posted that were actually trying to give real criticism were met with real thought and deliberation over the topic literally all you said was this show has nothing it sucks the author is stupid everything is garbage what did you expect for me to say oh yup this shows garbage you gave no points other than saying everything sucks. You're again making a Straw Man. I didn't say everything sucks, I pointed out the specific aspects that did. The fact that there are so many it appears to be everything is just a testament to how fucking awful this series is. And if you want to get into straw-man fallacies here all I implied was that the plot wasn’t as high in quality as the characters and themes when did I ever say that excused the plot? When you said: "I’ve acknowledged that the plot is a bit lackluster due to it being a more character driven show." You could not have been more explicit about that, to say that it's a Straw Man is backpedalling. You act like qualities can’t coexist I acknowledged that the plot wasn’t as superb as I viewed the themes so I knocked some points off but that doesn’t take anything away from the themes so I still overall view the show as good. I never "acted like" that. In fact I referenced this exact thing at the end of my last response. There was no blanket dismissal and you literally put words in my mouth because I never said the plot was bad I specifically said it was lackluster compared to the other I don’t think the plot is bad just not anything crazy so if I think the rest of the show is a 10 and the plot is an 8 the show still averages to a 9 I don’t get why I have to spell out that concept. You're making a definist fallacy. You're trying to change the meaning of the word lacklustre to suit your argument, from a negative term to a neutral one. I’m not responding to any of thematic arguments because that’s not going to go anywhere anybody can subjectively say something is bad for as long as they want and you aren’t the person to ever change your mind. Again, it's not subjective, and whether or not anyone changes their mind is irrelevant. But the point is your entire argument was originally structured in the form of 86 has a lack of various elements and I’ve demonstrated my observation of those elements. Refer to where I pointed out earlier, nothing you've said is demonstrably present, and are mutually contradictory both amongst each other and with the work itself. You can argue the existence of the elements all you want but me and other people have acknowledged them so you would have to prove that your interpretation is better than ours which you can’t because it’s subjective. It's not subjective, and I've above argued how "my interpretation" is correct, as it relies on the basis of actually examining the creative intent of the work, as all good media critique does. You can think the show is bad if you want I really don’t care or know why you are in a forum 21 episodes down into the show if you hate it this much but your point that the show lacks all of these qualities conceptually can’t stand even if you think there is no value in it if we find value in it is has value. First, it's irrelevant "why I'm here." Second, and I'll embolden this point because it's important, you are making the common error of assuming that the value of a piece of media is defined by if people enjoy it or not. That is incorrect. Everything has an audience, no matter how worthless. If we took this to a Kantian extreme, everything would be of equal merit, which conflicts with the fact that everyone can see that things can be better or worse than others. What really matters when it comes to media is how well the creator got across what they wanted to say how well they expressed their artistic intent, to simplify it to the most basic level. It’s like saying Chinese is gibberish bc you speak English just because it doesn’t hold value to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t possess value which is what I’m trying to wrap your head around. No. That's a false analogy. What you're doing is akin to taking some random scribbles and claiming they're a language, coming up with wild ideas of what each symbol could mean, when the person who made the scribbles had nothing particular in mind when they wrote them down. And to finish off your claims about soundtracks animation directing and production just aren’t supported like you’re really one of the first people I’ve seen who doesn’t appreciate the music and production so if anything you’re on the wrong side. Argumentum ad Populum, again. That I'm the first person you've seen is irrelevant to if I'm right or not. Its why nobody is really complaint about the hiatus till March because we all think the production has been very well for the show and can’t be mad so I’m a category as subjective as music and animation if you are in the minority as well it’s hold to push your point. Again, being in the minority is irrelevant. As well as the vacuum argument I had 0 knowledge of 86 before watching the show so had 0 expectations so I don’t see how you are in any more of a vacuum then me if you think simply trying to be objective makes you objective you are far off implicit bias and confirmation bias would never allow you to be in a true vacuum. You're again assuming you know what I know and how I do things more than I do, which you cannot know. |
| Well I for one already loved Lain. |
Gabriel_Gaming said: I see resident schizoid has arrived in this thread Justify this claim. It's a hollow insult, of course, but humour me. Sb98 said: Gabriel_Gaming said: They're literally proving that they don't go outside. Just look at the length of the replies lmfaoI see resident schizoid has arrived in this thread Oh really, how does it prove that? Sounds like you're saying it'd take you days on end to type out a rather simple batch of sentences, and you're assuming everyone else is as thick as you. |
| Well I for one already loved Lain. |
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