Satyr_icon said: I think the problem is how people attach a "bad" meaning to the word escapism. Not all escapism is bad. Just like all things, there's good and there's bad escapism. It all depends on how that affects you. And yes, most anime is mere escapism. And there's nothing wrong with that. Also, your reasoning doesn't make any sense. Drop the pretension a bit. I have no pretension, I am stating claims and people are free to argue me wrong, I will probably argue back and we will maybe never understand each other, but the point of discussing is discussing, not to reach an understanding. The only thing that is bad with escapism is the word itself, it serves no function except as an excuse for avoiding to think and discuss. |
| I can’t tell if you’re trolling or just a stoned drop out who majored in psych or philosophy. Either way though I guess I’m taking th bait. Almost all forms of entertainment encompass escapism to some degree. The thing is that escapism, as with most things, isn’t bad if used in moderation. Life is (usually) hard so it’s good to get your mind off it and relax for a bit. Having said that though, anime and MMOs are probably two of the more unhealthy forms of escapism because both can be very addicting and could potentially lead to shut in life styles. Not trying to put anyone down when I say this, I myself have spent a shameful amount of time on MMOs and as of lately anime, but it’s undeniably more common for MMO players and Anime viewers to take their escapism to the next level. I also think you’re misusing/misinterpreting the word “objectivity” because that has little to nothing to do with this discussion, certainly not on the context you used it. By definition objectivity is looking at something from an unbiased view point based souly in fact, ignoring opinion. To say “modern objectivity is escapism” doesn’t really make sense. |
| Lolicons are scum. BABYMETAL is more metal than Metallica. Naruto is objectively the best anime ever. HxH 99' is decent. HxH 11' is bad. |
Stygian_Prisoner said: Safeanew said: Well it is easy really, just start thinking about it and listen to what I say and you will get there too. Heh, what a pretentious lunatic. Thanks, but i don't think i'm actually interested in "getting" to wherever it is you are. Thanks for the compliments, I have pride in my lunacy. |
Ringo_Elegant said: I'd say it deeply depends for me. I'd say things like One Piece are deeply escapist to me: while there is an element of discussion surrounding the concepts of freedom and authority, it's really not so deep, and it's not supposed to be! I'd say that and Jojo have got to be my big choices for anime that I just watch because they're great fun distractions (and also motivate me to work out lmao). Other anime I'd say are much less escapist. As an Urobuchi fanboy I have to cite Fate/Zero and Psycho-Pass, and stories like Berserk and Steins;Gate could even qualify. While these anime do have escapist potential due to their cool worlds and beautiful visuals, I would argue that their grim nature dampens this. Instead, I like these anime because they create potential for discussion and I don't feel that they speak down to the viewer. There are always arguments that could be explored and belief systems to be applied. I don't think of these as escapist anime. While I agree that some anime makes one think more then others, the point in criticizing the "dumb" anime should be to make people think, not shut them up, that I like watching what I think is stupid anime is in no way escapist, rather those often are very interesting to find out why I think they are stupid and always criticizing my own take on the series seeing if theres more to then I first thought. |
Safeanew said: That the problem with people, the reason we have problems comes from within ourselves, not the world we live in. Escapism solves nothing, the idea that there is nothing wrong with you but instead the people or world around you has no value. In some circumstances that is the case but it’s rare.Tommeow said: I'm just stating that the point of the majority of isekai is escapism, that if you weren't born in our world your obsessions with games, anime, etc would be useful. If the amount of isekai is indicative of anything it's that otaku still haven't learned anything from Evangelion. What should they learn from Evangelion? That part of isekai's is not bad, your knowledge from fiction is useful, why do you think they force you to read in school except to practice language. What is the point in reading fictional storys in school if one don't learn anything from them. What I would criticize more with isekai's is many have poor world building, only telling a very main character centric story, but that have interesting implications of it's own. As for your second question, you should know this, otherwise your teacher failed you or you failed your teacher. Fiction can tell you many things about you or the people around you. It’s not just to practice language, otherwise they’d jut ask you to write and ignore reading. They tried to teach you that fiction has something to say, a message to be learned. They commentate on society, on people, on the world. What Isekai says is that you aren’t the problem and you were just unlucky with the world you were thrown in. That message is bullshit. Everyone is flawed, we all have to improve ourselves, we all have problems we need to address, and to ignore that is the biggest mistake you could ever make. This critical failure in the source of a person’s problems is also the source of that main character centrism you criticized, it’s because isekai are so wrapped in the idea that you are perfect for this role that you were tragically not born into they must constantly focus on how amazing the main character is now that the world around them has been corrected. |
   Why don’t we become monsters and really mess up this awful world? Just destroy until there’s no more evil, no more sadness, no more anything… Wouldn’t that be great? |
| Good animes kill boredom. That's all I know. |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: I'd say it deeply depends for me. I'd say things like One Piece are deeply escapist to me: while there is an element of discussion surrounding the concepts of freedom and authority, it's really not so deep, and it's not supposed to be! I'd say that and Jojo have got to be my big choices for anime that I just watch because they're great fun distractions (and also motivate me to work out lmao). Other anime I'd say are much less escapist. As an Urobuchi fanboy I have to cite Fate/Zero and Psycho-Pass, and stories like Berserk and Steins;Gate could even qualify. While these anime do have escapist potential due to their cool worlds and beautiful visuals, I would argue that their grim nature dampens this. Instead, I like these anime because they create potential for discussion and I don't feel that they speak down to the viewer. There are always arguments that could be explored and belief systems to be applied. I don't think of these as escapist anime. While I agree that some anime makes one think more then others, the point in criticizing the "dumb" anime should be to make people think, not shut them up, that I like watching what I think is stupid anime is in no way escapist, rather those often are very interesting to find out why I think they are stupid and always criticizing my own take on the series seeing if theres more to then I first thought. I don't think that means it isn't escapist media, and I wouldn't call Jojo or One Piece "dumb", but I still would qualify them as escapist (I supppose one could make the argument that Jojo's main strength is Araki's designs, so it may be more appropriate to call it an aesthetic work, but I think most people enjoy it for escapist reasons). Just because you can think critically about a work doesn't stop it from being an escapist piece, while just because a piece is escapist does not mean it is bad. Why are you so against the term "escapism" in general? It is not inherently negative, and I'd argue it's often a very positive term. |
Hokage_Jason said: I can’t tell if you’re trolling or just a stoned drop out who majored in psych or philosophy. Either way though I guess I’m taking th bait. Almost all forms of entertainment encompass escapism to some degree. The thing is that escapism, as with most things, isn’t bad if used in moderation. Life is (usually) hard so it’s good to get your mind off it and relax for a bit. Having said that though, anime and MMOs are probably two of the more unhealthy forms of escapism because both can be very addicting and could potentially lead to shut in life styles. Not trying to put anyone down when I say this, I myself have spent a shameful amount of time on MMOs and as of lately anime, but it’s undeniably more common for MMO players and Anime viewers to take their escapism to the next level. I also think you’re misusing/misinterpreting the word “objectivity” because that has little to nothing to do with this discussion, certainly not on the context you used it. By definition objectivity is looking at something from an unbiased view point based souly in fact, ignoring opinion. To say “modern objectivity is escapism” doesn’t really make sense. The word 'trolling' is nearly used the same way as the word 'escapism' as in to avoid or stop thinking. My point is the only false view is trying have that unbiased view like it is possible to know something before trying to learn that something. Thinking and claiming things based your own thinking is the only way to truly learn something. |
Safeanew said: My point is calling it escapism is the real escapism. What is so bad about being miserable except that it hurts like hell. If you want to run, run with all your power, until you can stop and think about what you really want. These questions sound pretentious to the point where I'm starting to think only someone with no real problems could pose them, even though I generally don't like to think "you don't have any real issues" about anybody ever. The bad thing about hurting is that I don't want to hurt but am powerless to stop it from happening. Neither can I run. Anywhere. I have a severe mobile disability causing me physical, emotional and mental suffering every day, turning my relationship with my parents toxic, severely limiting my life options, and quite likely preventing me from reaching a future with the man of my dreams, after having found him at last, after almost 30 years. Stop posing vague theoretic questions and realize for one second I would like to at least vicariously and temporarily experience any other reality than my current one. And you know good and damn well this is the point each one of the repliers has been getting at. |
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Safeanew said: KreatorX said: Hm, I do feel that you are trying to prod at a very nuanced point but don't know how to explain better -> here's how it is for me:- I don't feel the urge or compulsion to kill people in real life, because I don't want my hands dirty. However I have definitely felt the urge to mow down some pixels in a videogame, because I have no fear of repercussions. What's the worst that could happen? a computer crash :D I have accepted this difference in my urges when it comes to reality and in fiction. Escapism is just the term given to it, you are free to do and consume anything in fiction without repercussions. My point is similar to the point that there is a difference between commiting oneself to something and just rationalising something. This rationalising of things like "it's just a game" or "it's just fiction" avoids thinking about the implications the story, the characters, every word they say have on reality and also about yourself and why you and many others are drawn to those particular storys. Hm, no. I am being very careful here not to conflate reality with fiction. I can engage myself in the story deeply yet eject at the flick of a switch. It is not mindless entertainment as you make it sound but I can ensure that fictional things stay fictional. Sure, I can incorporate stuff I learn from that fictional world if I want to into my real life but that has little to do with escapism. You raise this weird notion that people are running away from thinking about the anime under the garb of 'escapism'. This isn't even an angle I am considering. Nobody is running away from critical thinking, they are detaching themselves from the daily humdrum for a couple of hours. |
KreatorXFeb 28, 2019 1:02 PM
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
Safeanew said: Thinking and claiming things based your own thinking is the only way to truly learn something. Still not sure if you’re trolling or tripping but, that sentence alone is enough to make me say you aren’t worth debating anything with lol. I hope for your own sake however that you are trolling and don’t believe that. Ones perspective can actually be very misleading, and if you really want to learn anything, you need to learn how to look at things objectively and disregard your perception/bias. But yeah gl with your shitpost, seems to be working well based on the number of replies. |
| Lolicons are scum. BABYMETAL is more metal than Metallica. Naruto is objectively the best anime ever. HxH 99' is decent. HxH 11' is bad. |
Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: While I agree that some anime makes one think more then others, the point in criticizing the "dumb" anime should be to make people think, not shut them up, that I like watching what I think is stupid anime is in no way escapist, rather those often are very interesting to find out why I think they are stupid and always criticizing my own take on the series seeing if theres more to then I first thought. I don't think that means it isn't escapist media, and I wouldn't call Jojo or One Piece "dumb", but I still would qualify them as escapist (I supppose one could make the argument that Jojo's main strength is Araki's designs, so it may be more appropriate to call it an aesthetic work, but I think most people enjoy it for escapist reasons). Just because you can think critically about a work doesn't stop it from being an escapist piece, while just because a piece is escapist does not mean it is bad. Why are you so against the term "escapism" in general? It is not inherently negative, and I'd argue it's often a very positive term. Tommeow said: Safeanew said: That the problem with people, the reason we have problems comes from within ourselves, not the world we live in. Escapism solves nothing, the idea that there is nothing wrong with you but instead the people or world around you has no value. In some circumstances that is the case but it’s rare.What should they learn from Evangelion? That part of isekai's is not bad, your knowledge from fiction is useful, why do you think they force you to read in school except to practice language. What is the point in reading fictional storys in school if one don't learn anything from them. What I would criticize more with isekai's is many have poor world building, only telling a very main character centric story, but that have interesting implications of it's own. As for your second question, you should know this, otherwise your teacher failed you or you failed your teacher. Fiction can tell you many things about you or the people around you. It’s not just to practice language, otherwise they’d jut ask you to write and ignore reading. They tried to teach you that fiction has something to say, a message to be learned. They commentate on society, on people, on the world. What Isekai says is that you aren’t the problem and you were just unlucky with the world you were thrown in. That message is bullshit. Everyone is flawed, we all have to improve ourselves, we all have problems we need to address, and to ignore that is the biggest mistake you could ever make. This critical failure in the source of a person’s problems is also the source of that main character centrism you criticized, it’s because isekai are so wrapped in the idea that you are perfect for this role that you were tragically not born into they must constantly focus on how amazing the main character is now that the world around them has been corrected. So this sounds alot like my point, except that a part of improving yourself is criticizing what is wrong with society and everyone else. But this idea that everyone is flawed and therefore every character should be flawed forgets the point that in our very everyday life we meet what seems like perfect persons all the time, in reality they have flaws or they may not anything that we count as flaws. Fiction can work on the level of our very perception of other people and that can make these perfect main characters very relatable, because they remind us of those we look up to for example. |
DiangeloKun18 said: Good animes kill boredom. That's all I know. It is ok to be bored and it is ok to enjoy, I argue that if you enjoy anime, do it fully, if you are bored be bored. |
Safeanew said: If this sounds a lot like your point then you are either understanding me wrong (or I communicated poorly) or your point is that isekai is an escapist fantasy. Pretending someone is perfect is stupid as well, but let's ignore that for a minute. Why do you think isekai always has an otaku main character that finds their calling in some other world that isn't their own? It's for projection, for an escape, aka escapism. The very notion of a perfect character is escapism in and of itself. If you don't think that's escapism I must ask what the hell you think it isRingo_Elegant said: I don't think that means it isn't escapist media, and I wouldn't call Jojo or One Piece "dumb", but I still would qualify them as escapist (I supppose one could make the argument that Jojo's main strength is Araki's designs, so it may be more appropriate to call it an aesthetic work, but I think most people enjoy it for escapist reasons). Just because you can think critically about a work doesn't stop it from being an escapist piece, while just because a piece is escapist does not mean it is bad. Why are you so against the term "escapism" in general? It is not inherently negative, and I'd argue it's often a very positive term. Tommeow said: That the problem with people, the reason we have problems comes from within ourselves, not the world we live in. Escapism solves nothing, the idea that there is nothing wrong with you but instead the people or world around you has no value. In some circumstances that is the case but it’s rare. As for your second question, you should know this, otherwise your teacher failed you or you failed your teacher. Fiction can tell you many things about you or the people around you. It’s not just to practice language, otherwise they’d jut ask you to write and ignore reading. They tried to teach you that fiction has something to say, a message to be learned. They commentate on society, on people, on the world. What Isekai says is that you aren’t the problem and you were just unlucky with the world you were thrown in. That message is bullshit. Everyone is flawed, we all have to improve ourselves, we all have problems we need to address, and to ignore that is the biggest mistake you could ever make. This critical failure in the source of a person’s problems is also the source of that main character centrism you criticized, it’s because isekai are so wrapped in the idea that you are perfect for this role that you were tragically not born into they must constantly focus on how amazing the main character is now that the world around them has been corrected. So this sounds alot like my point, except that a part of improving yourself is criticizing what is wrong with society and everyone else. But this idea that everyone is flawed and therefore every character should be flawed forgets the point that in our very everyday life we meet what seems like perfect persons all the time, in reality they have flaws or they may not anything that we count as flaws. Fiction can work on the level of our very perception of other people and that can make these perfect main characters very relatable, because they remind us of those we look up to for example. |
Why don’t we become monsters and really mess up this awful world? Just destroy until there’s no more evil, no more sadness, no more anything… Wouldn’t that be great? |
Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: While I agree that some anime makes one think more then others, the point in criticizing the "dumb" anime should be to make people think, not shut them up, that I like watching what I think is stupid anime is in no way escapist, rather those often are very interesting to find out why I think they are stupid and always criticizing my own take on the series seeing if theres more to then I first thought. I don't think that means it isn't escapist media, and I wouldn't call Jojo or One Piece "dumb", but I still would qualify them as escapist (I supppose one could make the argument that Jojo's main strength is Araki's designs, so it may be more appropriate to call it an aesthetic work, but I think most people enjoy it for escapist reasons). Just because you can think critically about a work doesn't stop it from being an escapist piece, while just because a piece is escapist does not mean it is bad. Why are you so against the term "escapism" in general? It is not inherently negative, and I'd argue it's often a very positive term. Well why do call it 'escapist' when 'fiction' or 'story' serves that purpose you are talking about much better. The word 'escapist' sounds like you are escaping something you would rather want to do or something you think you should do, one should enjoy things one wants to enjoy and do things one think one should do, the word escapist I distract myself from both and do what everyone else want me to do. |
PrincessMeiMei said: Safeanew said: My point is calling it escapism is the real escapism. What is so bad about being miserable except that it hurts like hell. If you want to run, run with all your power, until you can stop and think about what you really want. These questions sound pretentious to the point where I'm starting to think only someone with no real problems could pose them, even though I generally don't like to think "you don't have any real issues" about anybody ever. The bad thing about hurting is that I don't want to hurt but am powerless to stop it from happening. Neither can I run. Anywhere. I have a severe mobile disability causing me physical, emotional and mental suffering every day, turning my relationship with my parents toxic, severely limiting my life options, and quite likely preventing me from reaching a future with the man of my dreams, after having found him at last, after almost 30 years. Stop posing vague theoretic questions and realize for one second I would like to at least vicariously and temporarily experience any other reality than my current one. And you know good and damn well this is the point each one of the repliers has been getting at. I don't think you are making the same point as the others. My point is why should your life hinder you in any way more then it already does from fully enjoying fiction. My point is also even if you think it is impossible, the only way to face that despair is through angst. |
KreatorX said: Safeanew said: My point is similar to the point that there is a difference between commiting oneself to something and just rationalising something. This rationalising of things like "it's just a game" or "it's just fiction" avoids thinking about the implications the story, the characters, every word they say have on reality and also about yourself and why you and many others are drawn to those particular storys. Hm, no. I am being very careful here not to conflate reality with fiction. I can engage myself in the story deeply yet eject at the flick of a switch. It is not mindless entertainment as you make it sound but I can ensure that fictional things stay fictional. Sure, I can incorporate stuff I learn from that fictional world if I want to into my real life but that has little to do with escapism. You raise this weird notion that people are running away from thinking about the anime under the garb of 'escapism'. This isn't even an angle I am considering. Nobody is running away from critical thinking, they are detaching themselves from the daily humdrum for a couple of hours. Well the use of that word seems to work like that all the time, people don't want to discuss anything and ridicule for even suggesting that taste is worth discussing. The other point is that people use this false objectivity all the time to avoid arguing for their claim, they talk facts and common sense like those words end all discussions. I claim is that common sense is wrong most of the time and that people are afraid of really engaging with the ideas people bring. And also people are really afraid of asking questions, trying to understand what the other person is saying. |
Hokage_Jason said: Safeanew said: Thinking and claiming things based your own thinking is the only way to truly learn something. Still not sure if you’re trolling or tripping but, that sentence alone is enough to make me say you aren’t worth debating anything with lol. I hope for your own sake however that you are trolling and don’t believe that. Ones perspective can actually be very misleading, and if you really want to learn anything, you need to learn how to look at things objectively and disregard your perception/bias. But yeah gl with your shitpost, seems to be working well based on the number of replies. What this message says is that you don't want to debate with anyone that disagrees with you on a fundamental level. |
| I don't look at anime as escapism. In fact, part of what makes me so invested in anime is in finding little things that can relate to my own life. |
 "I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
Tommeow said: Safeanew said: If this sounds a lot like your point then you are either understanding me wrong (or I communicated poorly) or your point is that isekai is an escapist fantasy. Pretending someone is perfect is stupid as well, but let's ignore that for a minute. Why do you think isekai always has an otaku main character that finds their calling in some other world that isn't their own? It's for projection, for an escape, aka escapism. The very notion of a perfect character is escapism in and of itself. If you don't think that's escapism I must ask what the hell you think it isSo this sounds alot like my point, except that a part of improving yourself is criticizing what is wrong with society and everyone else. But this idea that everyone is flawed and therefore every character should be flawed forgets the point that in our very everyday life we meet what seems like perfect persons all the time, in reality they have flaws or they may not anything that we count as flaws. Fiction can work on the level of our very perception of other people and that can make these perfect main characters very relatable, because they remind us of those we look up to for example. Is not fully accepting projection as an inescapable part of reality less escapist then the idea that one can escape projection itself. What I mean is I don't consider Isekai escapist compared to the word 'escapist' itself. |
Greyleaf said: I don't look at anime as escapism. In fact, part of what makes me so invested in anime is in finding little things that can relate to my own life. I fully agree with this. This is what I mean about taking fiction seriously. |
Safeanew said: The first part I don't understand what you're saying, second part begs the question, again, what do you define escapism as?Tommeow said: If this sounds a lot like your point then you are either understanding me wrong (or I communicated poorly) or your point is that isekai is an escapist fantasy. Pretending someone is perfect is stupid as well, but let's ignore that for a minute. Why do you think isekai always has an otaku main character that finds their calling in some other world that isn't their own? It's for projection, for an escape, aka escapism. The very notion of a perfect character is escapism in and of itself. If you don't think that's escapism I must ask what the hell you think it is Is not fully accepting projection as an inescapable part of reality less escapist then the idea that one can escape projection itself. What I mean is I don't consider Isekai escapist compared to the word 'escapist' itself. |
Why don’t we become monsters and really mess up this awful world? Just destroy until there’s no more evil, no more sadness, no more anything… Wouldn’t that be great? |
Safeanew said: Greyleaf said: I don't look at anime as escapism. In fact, part of what makes me so invested in anime is in finding little things that can relate to my own life. I fully agree with this. This is what I mean about taking fiction seriously. Lol yeah. People always ask why The Pet Girl of Sakurasou is my favorite anime of all time.. it's not because I believe it's the pinnacle of great storytelling, characterization, or anything for that matter. The bottom line is that watching that series felt like viewing my own life in retrospect. It's always a joy to find things that can relate in such a way. :) |
"I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
Tommeow said: Safeanew said: The first part I don't understand what you're saying, second part begs the question, again, what do you define escapism as?Is not fully accepting projection as an inescapable part of reality less escapist then the idea that one can escape projection itself. What I mean is I don't consider Isekai escapist compared to the word 'escapist' itself. Well how I use it I mostly mean way of talking. People are fast to dismiss full range of meanings hidden every corner and avoiding fully exploring the fictional worlds people create and the ideas it invoke in the people that explore them. While I agree that isekai have this perfect character that can be very annoying if one for example want more interaction between the differnet characters. I would not call it escapist because I want the people that enjoy isekai series to fully explore the the world that the series is set in and not avoid it because of the flaws other point out in it. The flaw of isekais is not escapist for me because it does not avoid it's own range of meanings. |
Safeanew said: You still haven't defined what escapism is at all. Also I'm not saying isekai can't be good, I'm saying they typically aren'tTommeow said: The first part I don't understand what you're saying, second part begs the question, again, what do you define escapism as? Well how I use it I mostly mean way of talking. People are fast to dismiss full range of meanings hidden every corner and avoiding fully exploring the fictional worlds people create and the ideas it invoke in the people that explore them. While I agree that isekai have this perfect character that can be very annoying if one for example want more interaction between the differnet characters. I would not call it escapist because I want the people that enjoy isekai series to fully explore the the world that the series is set in and not avoid it because of the flaws other point out in it. The flaw of isekais is not escapist for me because it does not avoid it's own range of meanings. |
Why don’t we become monsters and really mess up this awful world? Just destroy until there’s no more evil, no more sadness, no more anything… Wouldn’t that be great? |
Greyleaf said: Lol yeah. People always ask why The Pet Girl of Sakurasou is my favorite anime of all time.. it's not because I believe it's the pinnacle of great storytelling, characterization, or anything for that matter. The bottom line is that watching that series felt like viewing my own life in retrospect. It's always a joy to find things that can relate in such a way. :) Yeah it is always great when anime can relate and makes on think about things like the past or the situation one is in the moment. The Pet Girl of Sakurasou is not an anime I liked that much based on the episodes I watched but I don't dislike it either in that it did the things it did quite well. |
Tommeow said: Safeanew said: You still haven't defined what escapism is at all. Also I'm not saying isekai can't be good, I'm saying they typically aren'tWell how I use it I mostly mean way of talking. People are fast to dismiss full range of meanings hidden every corner and avoiding fully exploring the fictional worlds people create and the ideas it invoke in the people that explore them. While I agree that isekai have this perfect character that can be very annoying if one for example want more interaction between the differnet characters. I would not call it escapist because I want the people that enjoy isekai series to fully explore the the world that the series is set in and not avoid it because of the flaws other point out in it. The flaw of isekais is not escapist for me because it does not avoid it's own range of meanings. I would not call any medium or genre 'escapist' because for me escapism really the way people talk to avoid thinking or angst or even boredom. This is a general point about addiction actually, addiction in my claim is not escapist, the only thing is escapist is not thinking about the things one do and not facing the things that hurts, not any tool one "uses as an excuse" to do it. |
Safeanew said: but the point of discussing is discussing, not to reach an understanding. No, it seems you completely missed the point of a civil discussion. The very idea of discussing something is to reach a consensus among both parties. Discussing for the sake of discussing is nonsensical. The fact that you hold such a belief just shows that any attempr at dialogue with you is bound to be a waste of time. What you just described is a pointless banter akin to exchanging diatribes, not a discussion. |
Satyr_iconFeb 28, 2019 2:33 PM
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Safeanew said: ]Ringo_Elegant said: I don't think that means it isn't escapist media, and I wouldn't call Jojo or One Piece "dumb", but I still would qualify them as escapist (I supppose one could make the argument that Jojo's main strength is Araki's designs, so it may be more appropriate to call it an aesthetic work, but I think most people enjoy it for escapist reasons). Just because you can think critically about a work doesn't stop it from being an escapist piece, while just because a piece is escapist does not mean it is bad. Why are you so against the term "escapism" in general? It is not inherently negative, and I'd argue it's often a very positive term. Well why do call it 'escapist' when 'fiction' or 'story' serves that purpose you are talking about much better. The word 'escapist' sounds like you are escaping something you would rather want to do or something you think you should do, one should enjoy things one wants to enjoy and do things one think one should do, the word escapist I distract myself from both and do what everyone else want me to do. "Escapist" is a more proper term because it is a specific term for fiction that serves as a purpose of distracting from reality for a fun excursion, whether by design or not. "Story" just refers to a set of events, sure "One Piece" is a story but so is George Washington's biography or the story of the Peloponnesian War, it's too general a term. "Fiction" just refers to any narrative that is invented and did not actually occur, people don't refer to fiction like "Lolita" by Vladimir Nabokov or "Requiem for a Dream" as "escapist" because they are disturbing reminders of upsetting issues in real life, they point to stressful aspects of life rather than distract from it. I think the issue isn't so much "whether or not anime is escapist" it's just that you don't like the term escapism and wish that the linguists who came up with it decided on another term. Which is all fine, but there's not much that can be done about that. |
Taifood said: Of course anime is escapism. Anime is made for the Japanese person, not the world. Their culture is run by a serious work ethic, where their entire lives is focused on how they contribute. To escape from that pressure is why a lot of anime have personality-less doormat protagonists with 5 superbabes in love with them. Actually I wonder what it really means that anime is made for the japanese audience. Why do so many non-japanese enjoy anime? |
Safeanew said: Greyleaf said: Lol yeah. People always ask why The Pet Girl of Sakurasou is my favorite anime of all time.. it's not because I believe it's the pinnacle of great storytelling, characterization, or anything for that matter. The bottom line is that watching that series felt like viewing my own life in retrospect. It's always a joy to find things that can relate in such a way. :) Yeah it is always great when anime can relate and makes on think about things like the past or the situation one is in the moment. The Pet Girl of Sakurasou is not an anime I liked that much based on the episodes I watched but I don't dislike it either in that it did the things it did quite well. Well that's the thing: I'm not expecting anyone to like it for the same reasons I did. Most people will either love it or hate it as a romcom, which is perfectly normal. I have a very unique connection to it that I could honestly elaborate for hours on, and it also put many, many things in my own life into greater perspective! :) |
"I am not sure that I exist, actually. I am all the writers that I have read, all the people that I have met, all the women that I have loved; all the cities I have visited." ― Jorge Luis Borges [url=]Goodreads[/url] | [url=]Letterboxd[/url] |
Satyr_icon said: Safeanew said: but the point of discussing is discussing, not to reach an understanding. No, it seems you completely missed the point of a civil discussion. The very idea of discussing something is to reach a consensus among both parties. Discussing for the sake of discussing is nonsensical. The fact that you hold such a belief just shows that any attempr at dialogue with you is bound to be a waste of time. What you just described is a pointless banter akin to exchanging diatribes, not a discussion. My point of discussing for discussing sake is to not hinder the sharing new ideas that go agaisnt common sense. Consenses eliminates the possibilty of discussing because it is like talking with yourself, not caring about what other people really are saying. There is absolutely nothing to discuss if everyone agrees. |
Safeanew said: My point of discussing for discussing sake is to not hinder the sharing new ideas that go agaisnt common sense. Consenses eliminates the possibilty of discussing because it is like talking with yourself, not caring about what other people really are saying. There is absolutely nothing to discuss if everyone agrees. No, a consensus does not eliminate the possibility of discussing. It just prevents it from descending into pointless banter, where both sides are interested only in "winning" the argument rather than gaining something from it. A discussion where both sides want to be winners is a lover's quarrel, not a mature dialogue. Reaching a consensus is not talking with yourself, it's dialoguing and listening to the opposite side, even if that means not reaching a mutual understanding. Also, your whole point is bogus simply because calling something escapism doesn't mean that you can't discuss it. I consider Slice of Life to be escapism, and still, I love discussing it. You say you dislike consensus, but your whole reasoning comes from a consensus you yourself created with no solid basis whatsoever. |
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Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: ]Well why do call it 'escapist' when 'fiction' or 'story' serves that purpose you are talking about much better. The word 'escapist' sounds like you are escaping something you would rather want to do or something you think you should do, one should enjoy things one wants to enjoy and do things one think one should do, the word escapist I distract myself from both and do what everyone else want me to do. "Escapist" is a more proper term because it is a specific term for fiction that serves as a purpose of distracting from reality for a fun excursion, whether by design or not. "Story" just refers to a set of events, sure "One Piece" is a story but so is George Washington's biography or the story of the Peloponnesian War, it's too general a term. "Fiction" just refers to any narrative that is invented and did not actually occur, people don't refer to fiction like "Lolita" by Vladimir Nabokov or "Requiem for a Dream" as "escapist" because they are disturbing reminders of upsetting issues in real life, they point to stressful aspects of life rather than distract from it. I think the issue isn't so much "whether or not anime is escapist" it's just that you don't like the term escapism and wish that the linguists who came up with it decided on another term. Which is all fine, but there's not much that can be done about that. Well I can accept the definition so that I know I don't agree with the position of those using the word. Because it is not term I am criticizing, it is the people that use it, not seeing the damage their way of speaking does. They stand for anti-intelectual movement of wanting to avoid discussion and I am pointing that out and why words like 'escapism', 'trolling' and 'objectivity/subjectivity' function like that. Naming a genre escapist would be fine if it still meant that that genre is taken seriously like all art, and escapist means only the exclusion of say 'drama' or 'realism' or what you would call "real life problems in fiction". But the fact is, it is used to stop really thinking about things most of the time. And about enjoying something for escapist reasons, everything can fulfill the role of escapism, that is my point! |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: ] "Escapist" is a more proper term because it is a specific term for fiction that serves as a purpose of distracting from reality for a fun excursion, whether by design or not. "Story" just refers to a set of events, sure "One Piece" is a story but so is George Washington's biography or the story of the Peloponnesian War, it's too general a term. "Fiction" just refers to any narrative that is invented and did not actually occur, people don't refer to fiction like "Lolita" by Vladimir Nabokov or "Requiem for a Dream" as "escapist" because they are disturbing reminders of upsetting issues in real life, they point to stressful aspects of life rather than distract from it. I think the issue isn't so much "whether or not anime is escapist" it's just that you don't like the term escapism and wish that the linguists who came up with it decided on another term. Which is all fine, but there's not much that can be done about that. Well I can accept the definition so that I know I don't agree with the position of those using the word. Because it is not term I am criticizing, it is the people that use it, not seeing the damage their way of speaking does. They stand for anti-intelectual movement of wanting to avoid discussion and I am pointing that out and why words like 'escapism', 'trolling' and 'objectivity/subjectivity' function like that. Naming a genre escapist would be fine if it still meant that that genre is taken seriously like all art, and escapist means only the exclusion of say 'drama' or 'realism' or what you would call "real life problems in fiction". But the fact is, it is used to stop really thinking about things most of the time. And about enjoying something for escapist reasons, everything can fulfill the role of escapism, that is my point! Well that's kind of a lot to unpack, but the thing is, someone can call a piece escapist while still believing it to be worth discussion. J.R.R. Tolkien's works are often given both the labels of escapist fantasy and high art. I agree with your point that if people use the term to be dismissive, they are misusing the term, but I think that just has more of a problem with the people themselves being generally dismissive of new types of media rather than anything having to do with the concept of escapism itself. I do take umbrage with the claim "anything can be escapism" though. Some pieces just take too much effort to operate that way for any reasonable person. Google the first page of "Finnegan's Wake" by James Joyce; I'd be seriously surprised and concerned if anyone claimed that it felt like an escapist novel. |
Satyr_icon said: Safeanew said: My point of discussing for discussing sake is to not hinder the sharing new ideas that go agaisnt common sense. Consenses eliminates the possibilty of discussing because it is like talking with yourself, not caring about what other people really are saying. There is absolutely nothing to discuss if everyone agrees. No, a consensus does not eliminate the possibility of discussing. It just prevents it from descending into pointless banter, where both sides are interested only in "winning" the argument rather than gaining something from it. A discussion where both sides want to be winners is a lover's quarrel, not a mature dialogue. Reaching a consensus is not talking with yourself, it's dialoguing and listening to the opposite side, even if that means not reaching a mutual understanding. Also, your whole point is bogus simply because calling something escapism doesn't mean that you can't discuss it. I consider Slice of Life to be escapism, and still, I love discussing it. You say you dislike consensus, but your whole reasoning comes from a consensus you yourself created with no solid basis whatsoever. What I am criticizing is this idea that you can have a civil discussion without what people feel is 'toxic' disagreement. Because it is scary when people don't agree with you it is easier to avoid 'toxic' discussion then to really listen to what "lunatics" really have to say for them selves. I am for dialouge and I think I am perfectly civil in my way of arguing. I just don't agree with the arguments people have made agiasnt my claim, because they have not shown any understanding of what I am saying. Calling something escapism is often a word preventing fully exploring what a work says. Consensus with oneself should be obvious, without that one would not be able to make a single decision. One should say what one believe in, why would one not? |
Safeanew said: Because it is not term I am criticizing, it is the people that use it, not seeing the damage their way of speaking does. They stand for anti-intelectual movement of wanting to avoid discussion and I am pointing that out and why words like 'escapism', 'trolling' and 'objectivity/subjectivity' function like that. I disagree. Massively. Calling something escaping doesn't mean you have to stop thinking about it. I don't think anyone, anywhere has ever claimed that. They might say that they don't personally want to read further into it - like, if they used the phrase "Oh, it's just mindless escapism for me, I don't think too hard about it". That's how they might want to experience a work, and that's fine. You don't have to go all deep and meaningful with everything you watch. Sometimes fluff is just fluff. Now you might really want to discuss it. That's fine. You can! There's a whole internet full of people who want to discuss it with you! But you don't get to look down on people who just want to switch off their brain for 25 minutes and enjoy something they enjoy. Maybe I've misunderstood your point. If I have, I feel I can be forgiven, because your posts are extremely confusing to read. My advice? Stop trying to sound philosophical. Coming from a philosophy graduate, real philosophers don't sound as pointlessly waffly and 'omg so deep' as you do. On the contrary, the ability to communicate complex topics clearly is immensely valued. As is, you sound like you've seen what philosophy looks like but not actually grasped the essence. Be. Clearer. |
Safeanew said: That’s just using the term escapism to create conflict where there is none. You’re completely ignoring it’s actual definition (Merriam Webster definition: “habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from reality or routine).Tommeow said: You still haven't defined what escapism is at all. Also I'm not saying isekai can't be good, I'm saying they typically aren't I would not call any medium or genre 'escapist' because for me escapism really the way people talk to avoid thinking or angst or even boredom. This is a general point about addiction actually, addiction in my claim is not escapist, the only thing is escapist is not thinking about the things one do and not facing the things that hurts, not any tool one "uses as an excuse" to do it. |
Why don’t we become monsters and really mess up this awful world? Just destroy until there’s no more evil, no more sadness, no more anything… Wouldn’t that be great? |
Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: Well I can accept the definition so that I know I don't agree with the position of those using the word. Because it is not term I am criticizing, it is the people that use it, not seeing the damage their way of speaking does. They stand for anti-intelectual movement of wanting to avoid discussion and I am pointing that out and why words like 'escapism', 'trolling' and 'objectivity/subjectivity' function like that. Naming a genre escapist would be fine if it still meant that that genre is taken seriously like all art, and escapist means only the exclusion of say 'drama' or 'realism' or what you would call "real life problems in fiction". But the fact is, it is used to stop really thinking about things most of the time. And about enjoying something for escapist reasons, everything can fulfill the role of escapism, that is my point! Well that's kind of a lot to unpack, but the thing is, someone can call a piece escapist while still believing it to be worth discussion. J.R.R. Tolkien's works are often given both the labels of escapist fantasy and high art. I agree with your point that if people use the term to be dismissive, they are misusing the term, but I think that just has more of a problem with the people themselves being generally dismissive of new types of media rather than anything having to do with the concept of escapism itself. I do take umbrage with the claim "anything can be escapism" though. Some pieces just take too much effort to operate that way for any reasonable person. Google the first page of "Finnegan's Wake" by James Joyce; I'd be seriously surprised and concerned if anyone claimed that it felt like an escapist novel. Ok so I agree with your position 'escapist' as genre that is still taken seriously. My point of everything can be escapist, is that reality itself is mostly escapist. People work to forget things, people are mean to others to forget things. The only escape is this avoidaince of thinking. My problem is not with some textbook defintion, it is people use to make out reality like the only thing that matters. No, fiction matters because it is the only way to truly face reality. |
Safeanew said: I just don't agree with the arguments people have made agiasnt my claim, because they have not shown any understanding of what I am saying. If no one understands what you're saying, maybe you should wonder a bit if the problem isn't that you don't know how to express yourself. Safeanew said: Calling something escapism is often a word preventing fully exploring what a work says. No, it's not. I never saw anyone calling something escapism to prevent discussing it. Escapism can be often used as a criticism, yes, but not as a way to prevent discussion. On the contrary, many people have no problem admitting they like something for the sake of escapism (for example, fantasy literature) and those same people have no problem discussing in length about these works: just look at the Harry Potter fandom. Most fandoms work like that. The whole problem is that your premise simply isn't true from the start. Especially with anime, a medium created with escapism in mind. And this has never prevented anyone from discussing anime. Safeanew said: Consensus with oneself should be obvious, without that one would not be able to make a single decision. One should say what one believe in, why would one not? But there's a problem when that consensus is wrong and not based on reality, but on mere assumption. Now that would be the escapism you're talking about. |
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Maurice_5 said: Safeanew said: Because it is not term I am criticizing, it is the people that use it, not seeing the damage their way of speaking does. They stand for anti-intelectual movement of wanting to avoid discussion and I am pointing that out and why words like 'escapism', 'trolling' and 'objectivity/subjectivity' function like that. I disagree. Massively. Calling something escaping doesn't mean you have to stop thinking about it. I don't think anyone, anywhere has ever claimed that. They might say that they don't personally want to read further into it - like, if they used the phrase "Oh, it's just mindless escapism for me, I don't think too hard about it". That's how they might want to experience a work, and that's fine. You don't have to go all deep and meaningful with everything you watch. Sometimes fluff is just fluff. Now you might really want to discuss it. That's fine. You can! There's a whole internet full of people who want to discuss it with you! But you don't get to look down on people who just want to switch off their brain for 25 minutes and enjoy something they enjoy. Maybe I've misunderstood your point. If I have, I feel I can be forgiven, because your posts are extremely confusing to read. My advice? Stop trying to sound philosophical. Coming from a philosophy graduate, real philosophers don't sound as pointlessly waffly and 'omg so deep' as you do. On the contrary, the ability to communicate complex topics clearly is immensely valued. As is, you sound like you've seen what philosophy looks like but not actually grasped the essence. Be. Clearer. I am defending the people that enjoy anime without thinking, by saying what they are doing is not escapism by itself. What I find is escapist is those that seem to want to shut down threads or conversations in the way they speak. They don't speak on topic, they just say you are ridiculous in these camoflaged ways that makes them seem smart while being really disrespectful of the person they are talking to. |
Tommeow said: Safeanew said: That’s just using the term escapism to create conflict where there is none. You’re completely ignoring it’s actual definition (Merriam Webster definition: “habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from reality or routine).I would not call any medium or genre 'escapist' because for me escapism really the way people talk to avoid thinking or angst or even boredom. This is a general point about addiction actually, addiction in my claim is not escapist, the only thing is escapist is not thinking about the things one do and not facing the things that hurts, not any tool one "uses as an excuse" to do it. But those not that definition fit what I am saying. In that anything can fill that that function, ok except that reality and routine I would count as well as escapist, if those things fill the function of escape. I define escapism as the lack of thinking, the lack of commiting oneself to the things one do. |
Safeanew said: It doesn't matter if that fits your definition of escapism, that's what escapism is, plain and simpleTommeow said: That’s just using the term escapism to create conflict where there is none. You’re completely ignoring it’s actual definition (Merriam Webster definition: “habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from reality or routine). But those not that definition fit what I am saying. In that anything can fill that that function, ok except that reality and routine I would count as well as escapist, if those things fill the function of escape. I define escapism as the lack of thinking, the lack of commiting oneself to the things one do. |
Why don’t we become monsters and really mess up this awful world? Just destroy until there’s no more evil, no more sadness, no more anything… Wouldn’t that be great? |
Satyr_icon said: Safeanew said: I just don't agree with the arguments people have made agiasnt my claim, because they have not shown any understanding of what I am saying. If no one understands what you're saying, maybe you should wonder a bit if the problem isn't that you don't know how to express yourself. Safeanew said: Calling something escapism is often a word preventing fully exploring what a work says. No, it's not. I never saw anyone calling something escapism to prevent discussing it. Escapism can be often used as a criticism, yes, but not as a way to prevent discussion. On the contrary, many people have no problem admitting they like something for the sake of escapism (for example, fantasy literature) and those same people have no problem discussing in length about these works: just look at the Harry Potter fandom. Most fandoms work like that. The whole problem is that your premise simply isn't true from the start. Especially with anime, a medium created with escapism in mind. And this has never prevented anyone from discussing anime. Safeanew said: Consensus with oneself should be obvious, without that one would not be able to make a single decision. One should say what one believe in, why would one not? But there's a problem when that consensus is wrong and not based on reality, but on mere assumption. Now that would be the escapism you're talking about. This reality you are talking about is apeal to common sense, why should I agree with people I don't agree with only because they apeal to common sense? Well I see alot of comments in this thread whose sole intent is to shut me up, and they don't even answer my question. So I wonder how would one have a civil discussion if people disagree with you on a such fundamental level they can't be civil or respectful towards you. If anime is only escapism for people as in something to avoid the pain and theres no other meaning in it, how can you even discuss anime if there is no meaning in it except avoiding pain? |
Tommeow said: Safeanew said: It doesn't matter if that fits your definition of escapism, that's what escapism is, plain and simpleBut those not that definition fit what I am saying. In that anything can fill that that function, ok except that reality and routine I would count as well as escapist, if those things fill the function of escape. I define escapism as the lack of thinking, the lack of commiting oneself to the things one do. Do you only use the lexicon definition of words, or can you read between the lines and understand things that are based on context? Then this should not be hard to accept that we bend the meaning of words to fit the context. |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: Well that's kind of a lot to unpack, but the thing is, someone can call a piece escapist while still believing it to be worth discussion. J.R.R. Tolkien's works are often given both the labels of escapist fantasy and high art. I agree with your point that if people use the term to be dismissive, they are misusing the term, but I think that just has more of a problem with the people themselves being generally dismissive of new types of media rather than anything having to do with the concept of escapism itself. I do take umbrage with the claim "anything can be escapism" though. Some pieces just take too much effort to operate that way for any reasonable person. Google the first page of "Finnegan's Wake" by James Joyce; I'd be seriously surprised and concerned if anyone claimed that it felt like an escapist novel. Ok so I agree with your position 'escapist' as genre that is still taken seriously. My point of everything can be escapist, is that reality itself is mostly escapist. People work to forget things, people are mean to others to forget things. The only escape is this avoidaince of thinking. My problem is not with some textbook defintion, it is people use to make out reality like the only thing that matters. No, fiction matters because it is the only way to truly face reality. You might enjoy the philosophy of Rene Descartes, he often talks about how uncertain reality is, but coined the famous phrase "I think, therefore I am". He addresses some of what you're talking about, and the school of metaphysics in general is a beautiful tradition of thought addressing some of these concerns. I myself grew a great interest in the nature of "reality" after playing MGS2. Snake's line at the end "What most people think of reality is actually just fiction" is one that resonates with me deeply. I think the problem people are having with your thread and why you're feeling no one is addressing your concern is that the use of the term 'escapist/m' is a bit ill-advised here. You're saying you have no problem with the 'textbook definition' of escapism nor with the categorization of genre under escapism, but rather a specific rhetorical (perhaps foolish) strategy that some groups use to dismiss fiction. I think if you made the much cleaner claim of "People who dismiss anime as having merit based on preconceived notions are in the wrong", you'd find almost everyone here agrees with you (except for maybe some self-hating weebs). |
Safeanew said: I am defending the people that enjoy anime without thinking, by saying what they are doing is not escapism by itself. What I find is escapist is those that seem to want to shut down threads or conversations in the way they speak. They don't speak on topic, they just say you are ridiculous in these camoflaged ways that makes them seem smart while being really disrespectful of the person they are talking to. Safeanew said: I define escapism as the lack of thinking, the lack of commiting oneself to the things one do. I mean, you do you, but that's not what literally the rest of the world means by 'escapism'. So if you try and start a conversation about it and keep using the wrong word, you can't really get upset that no-one knows what on Earth you're talking about. Using the alternative meaning of 'escapism' - that is, the correct one - there's no need to 'defend' people that watch anime for that purpose. Because, you know, that's fine and all. It is escapism, whether you call it that or not, and most of them would happily admit that's a big part of why they watch it (example: the rest of this thread). And just because it caught my eye: Safeanew said: No, fiction matters because it is the only way to truly face reality. I disagree. Massively. Fiction can, sometimes, reveal telling things about the culture it's portraying, and about the author and their assumptions, and a lot of other things. Certainly, that's true. But it's not 'the only way to truly face reality' - that's actually ridiculous. There's lots of people who, for whatever reason, just aren't that into fiction. They're not disconnected from reality as you claim - they just engage in a different way. And even for those of us who do enjoy fiction? It's, at best, a minor part of how I 'face reality' (whatever that even means). Oh, and if you don't like me saying your writing is confusing, maybe don't write in a confusing way? |
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