 Modern currents have long wanted to portray ancient Greece as a heaven for homosexuals. The truth is that the vocabulary of the Greek language and the legislation of most of its cities attest that homosexuality was typically seen as something "abnormal" These currents say that the Spartans were effeminate; That Alexander the Great also; That Plato's Banquet speaks of it and that bedding with ephebes was commonplace in ancient Greece ... How many times have we heard of this subject without receiving historical sources? 1. Origin of the myth It would be absurd to deny the existence of homosexuality or pedophilia in Ancient Greece (where were they not?) But it is irrefutable that the traditional morals of the Hellenes and their ancient laws condemned these practices, even with the penalty of exile, in some cases. It is usually ignored that almost all "experts" who allude to an endemic extension of homosexuality in Ancient Greece were declared homosexuals. Among these "experts" and "authorities" we have to Walter Pater, Michel Foucault, John Boswell, John Winkler, David Halperin and Kenneth James Dover. These Victorians are responsible for accommodating history and mythology Greek to their fantasies and sexual positions. A century later, its works would be dusted and even applauded during the advent of the hippie surge. So, where is the "proof" of homosexuality accepted in Greece according to these authors? (A) The first one states that the Greeks, particularly those of the Ionian heritage (such as the Athenians), tended to "hold back" their women from public life, suppressing the feminine image of social life. This situation was not typical of all of Hellas (in the Sparta doria women had a truly remarkable freedom); It was clear that the strongest personal ties used to be between men. B) The second is based on the ideal of beauty. Just as today the ideal of the collective imagination is the body of a woman between twenty and thirty years old, in Ancient Greece the ideal of beauty was that of the boy who was between adolescence and maturity, considered the only human type combined a life of violent exercise outdoors and body health. Now, just as no one would say that today, to show the woman as an ideal of beauty, women should be all lesbians, the same should be thought of the male prototype of beauty and the reasons that were adduced for it. C) The third: in a town that gave so much importance to sports training, combat and camaraderie, it was normal that, in the midst of adventures and great battles away from home, extremely deep bonds were forged between men ... Of course they were links rarely understood by a pacifist, sedentary and effeminate society like ours, which, in any case, did not go beyond a solid brotherhood. It is true, however, that there must have been cases of some homosexual relations in these environments, but from there to think that every Greek soldier was sodomite, there is an immense abyss. In fact, the Greek words for the initiating teacher and the young initiate who aspired to become a man were "erastes" and "erómenos" respectively, which, literally translated, would be something like "lover" and "beloved." However, as we shall see, the mentality of Antiquity clearly distinguished between Carnal love and Platonic love, especially in a culture which considered that every young person needed the tutelage and advice of an elder to become wise in life or sublime in the sport. Moreover, if there was a place where the dissonant behavior of the sodomite was frowned upon, it was undoubtedly in the associations of hunters and soldiers of the distant past, where teamwork, brotherhood, duty, and camaraderie prevailed over individual instincts which were unloaded in combat or with women. 2. Homosexual nicknames and importance of modesty Most societies have stigmatized and outlawed sterile sexual practices or those that carry the risk of infection. Homosexuality itself meets both conditions, since on the one hand it is incapable of engendering new life and, on the other, the place used for carnal relations between men (the anus) is not precisely the cleanest, healthiest and most hygienic part of the body. In ancient Greece, which was no exception to this general rule, there were no politically correct euphemisms such as "homosexual," "gay," or "heterosexual." The "heteros" were simply normal people who fulfilled the natural law and enough; For homosexuals they reserved a series of words, generally of highly infamous and unworthy significance like Euryproktos, Lakkoproktos, Katapygon, Kataproktos, Arsenokoitai, Marikas, Androgynus and Kinaidos.  It is interesting the meaning of Kinaidos (κιναίδος): Causer of shame. This word is derived from kineo (move) and Aidós (shame, goddess of modesty, respect, modesty, reverence, accompanying goddess of Nemesis and punisher of moral transgressions). Aidos, according to the myth, was always accompanied by the cruel Nemesis (Indignation - other meanings: Justice and Vengeance are the best known), an avenging divinity that fits well with the notion of "karma" or punishment for sins; Well: the Greeks thought that anyone who had committed sodomy had a sword of Damocles patiently hanging over his head. But the most revealing fact is that in the Greek imagery, Aidos was associated precisely with the anus. How? Yes. When Zeus created the human being and the properties of its soul, he left out the Shame (Aidos, reverence, respect, modesty, modesty) and, since he did not know where to insert it, ordered it to be inserted in the anus. Aidus, however, complained against Zeus saying: "I will agree to be inserted in this way, only on the condition that, when something enters after me, I will leave immediately" . From this myth it follows that, according to the traditional Greek mentality, anal sex implied both shamelessness (modesty was considered virtue in Greece) and scattering the shame around one. In a European Pagan culture where every activity, every trade, every moment of life had its own "patron" or protector god, one would expect to find a divinity, a numen or a spirit of some kind, take care of homosexuality; And there was not ... Or rather, they did exist: they were the satyrs, those degenerate daimons who carried out all conceivable perversions and who, in Greece, did not enjoy a very good reputation. On the other hand, in a civilization that grants "regular" status to homosexuality, and favors it above heterosexuality, one would expect eroticism to be personified in a divinity represented by a young, beautiful, strong boy ...; But reality, again, is not such. The goddess of love, the traitor of Eros and all those things that make men lose their heads, was Aphrodite, the archetype of the "alpha female" (sorry feminists) 3. "Misokinia" in Greek law and morality We do not speak here of that modern euphemism called "homophobia" (etymologically "fear of the homosexual"), but of a true "miso-kinia" (misos: hate, kynos: dog / homosexual) persecuted and even punished by ethics and the most of the Hellenic laws of the past. Let's see. In his "Contra Timarco", Esquines (389-314 BC) tells how among the famous Laws of Solon, the following provisions were prescribed against whoever had "etairese" (company of the same sex): "If any Athenian prostitute (homosexual relationship), he is not allowed to become one of the nine archons, nor is he consecrated a priest, or to exercise the judiciary by the people, or to perform any office, either inside or outside , Nor by lottery nor by election, nor made herald, nor pronounce opinion, nor enter public sanctuaries, nor carry a crown in the processions, nor pass through the surroundings of the agora. If any of this does, sentenced for prostitution is sentenced to death" The Esquines' discourse takes on tougher tones when he invites judges to remind their Athenian ancestors, "severe to all shameful conduct" considering "the purity of their sons and their fellow citizens." He also praised the radical Spartan measures against homosexuality, citing the saying that "it is good to imitate virtue, even in a foreigner." This law of "progressive" and "advanced" Greek democracy, today would be described as homophobic and Fascist, without a doubt. For his part, the famous orator and politician Demosthenes (384-322 BC), enumerates some measures of the same tenor in his "Contra Androcio", specifying that those who have taken part in acts of sodomy, the law "prohibits to speak in public or submit motions " Many other citations could be adduced here in terms of legislation; We only point out that by practicing homosexuality, the Athenians were deprived of attending political, cultural, religious or popular events of any kind, becoming directly Mekoscos or second-class citizens. 4. The best authors of Greece repudiated sodomy The great teacher Plato, said: "When the male unites with the woman to procreate, the pleasure experienced is assumed by nature [kata physin], but is contrary to nature [para physin] when mating with a male, or when a female does with a woman, and those guilty of such enormities are driven by their slavery to pleasure " And even more: "We could force one of two in loving practices: or that no one dare touch any person born of the nobles and free except the husband to his own wife, nor to sow any profane or bastard seed in concubinage, nor, against nature, seed sterile in men - or we should totally extirpate the love for men ". In the "Phaedrus", he said: "You are afraid of public opinion, and you fear that if people find out [about your love affair], you will be repudiated" Aristotle himself, in his Nicomachean Ethics, simply called sickness or perversion to sodomy, arguing that it could come from bad constitution or from problems in childhood. For his part, Plutarch will contrast in his "Erotic" the natural union between man and woman as opposed to the "union between men, contrary to nature," to say later that those who "cohabit with men" do "to physin ", that is, against nature. Luciano de Samósata (125-181 AD), in his work Erotes has numerous anti-sodomytic pearls of Platonic roots: "Since a thing can not be born from a single source, to each species it [the 'primordial mother'] has endowed it with two genres, the male, to whom it has given the beginning of the seed, and the female, to the which has been molded as a container for said seed. She brings them together through desire, and unites them both in accordance with the healthy need, so that, remaining within her natural limits, the woman does not claim to have become a man, nor does man become indecently effeminate. This is how the unions of men with women have perpetuated the human race to this day ... " Quotations abound, even in numerous comedies (Aristophanes turns out to be a classic) where an extremely crude language is used to despise homosexuals, especially to those who take the passive role of kataproktoses, "anus that receives something from above." The question is obligatory: if homosexuality was so well seen and even a praised practice in Greece, to what so much "misokinica" literature? --------------------- Sources: -Henry-Irenee Marrou, Historia de la educación en la antigüedad, Akal/Universitara, Madrid 1985, 46. -Félix Buffière, Eros adolescent, la pédérastie dans la Grèce Antique, Les Belles Lettres París 1980, 703 pp. -El mito de la homosexualidad en la antigua Grecia, Camzo, Madrid 2012, 91 pp. -Aesop, Fables. -Platón, The Laws, 836c. -Esquino, Contra Timarco, v 21. -Demosthenes, Political Discourses, t. 1 -Idem, 841c. -Plato, Phaedrus, 231e. -Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics, l. VII, c. 6. -Plutarco, Erotica, 751c. -Lucian of Samosata, Erotes, v. 19. ---------------------------------------- Second Part ------> Post #48 |
_Nemrod_Jul 5, 2017 11:23 AM
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| Not reading all this shit. The greeks were openly homosexual and didn't give a fuck. They didn't have homosexual marriage though but that was because marriage wasn't about love it was a contract between families about carrying on family lineage. I'm part Greek myself. |
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traed said: Not reading all this shit. The greeks were openly homosexual and didn't give a fuck. They didn't have homosexual marriage though but that was because marriage wasn't about love it was a contract between families about carrying on family lineage. I'm part Greek myself. If you do not read, then save your opinion. That you are partially Greek does not tell me anything. |
_Nemrod_Jun 28, 2017 7:10 PM
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Rarusu_ said: Ancient Greece is a long period of time, and their societies did as well change over time like ours, and of course, people had different opinions about certain things back then as well. I'm not an expert on Ancient Greece myself, so I won't leave any strong comments about this, but according to Camille Paglia, the androgyny with effeminate men in Greek art occured at the late (decadent) phase of its culture. Your comment makes sense. Although it is not impossible for a strong civilization to be overthrown by force, they usually rot on the inside before being conquered from outside. That was the case of Babilonia and Ancient Greece. However, decadent times tend to be relatively short and begin when civilizations begin to worry about the small details. Camille Paglia, although lesbian, seems to recognize the abnormality of homosexuality. If my memory does not fail, it was she who said "nothing defines the decadence of the West better than our open tolerance to homosexuality and transsexuality" |
_Nemrod_Jun 28, 2017 7:59 PM
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| the way those dudes write is pretty gay boom get disproven, nimrod |
イカロス --I K A R O S D E S U-- "Hai master" <3cruise   Becoming the bell of my heart dont click here, baka -->> https://soundcloud.com/franciscan-guitar |
6Nimrod6 said: traed said: Not reading all this shit. The greeks were openly homosexual and didn't give a fuck. They didn't have homosexual marriage though but that was because marriage wasn't about love it was a contract between families about carrying on family lineage. I'm part Greek myself. If you do not read, then save your opinion. That you are partially Greek does not tell me anything. Well considering I known you're just doing this to whine about "degeneracy" as you pointed out in another thread and without any sources I know it's not worth the read. Of course some people looked down on it but it was pretty in the open and common enough it made its way in many works of art. It's just stupid to try to compare it to modern times. They had views that looked down on it but that was from looking down on not carrying on a family lineage as I already pointed out so they woulnt care if they were bisexual it was just people purely gay they might have been bothered by and that was within a family not usually by strangers as far as Im aware. You arent looking at things the from the right perspective to even begin to comprehend it. It's just not worth my time to address all your points individually because you're far from open minded and just want to spin your narrative of bigotry. if you actually cared about what they actually did you at least would provide sources. A greek philosopher was responsible for the concept of men being superior to women and the greeks even started the veiling women thing before it spread to the abrahamic religions. The culture had different stuff going on at different times. They would joke about gay sex and would worry about people thinking themselves are effeminate but that doesn't mean they ddin't accept homosexuals it just means they werent too unlike people today. |
traedJun 28, 2017 8:40 PM
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| Very interesting thread. I thought rome was the place where men had sex in the showers? Also, what did they think of sodomy if it was with a woman? |
PoeticJustice said: Very interesting thread. I thought rome was the place where men had sex in the showers? Also, what did they think of sodomy if it was with a woman? Rome will be pending for another thread. I have not yet completed my study of female homosexuality in Ancient Greece. So, I can not be very extensive on that point. However, I can said that female homosexuality was not seen with good eyes during most of the existence of Ancient Greece. The Greeks had a high esteem for female modesty and it is not difficult to realize that Christianity was successful in Greece because of this type of compatibility. Who can be so naive in thinking that Christianity would succeed in a sodomite culture? Just look what Plato, said: "When the male unites with the woman to procreate, the pleasure experienced is assumed by nature [kata physin], but is contrary to nature [para physin] when mating with a male, or when a female does with a woman, and those guilty of such enormities are driven by their slavery to pleasure " traed said: Well considering I known you're just doing this to whine about "degeneracy" as you pointed out in another thread and without any sources I know it's not worth the read. Of course some people looked down on it but it was pretty in the open and common enough it made its way in many works of art. It's just stupid to try to compare it to modern times. They had views that looked down on it but that was from looking down on not carrying on a family lineage as I already pointed out so they woulnt care if they were bisexual it was just people purely gay they might have been bothered by and that was within a family not usually by strangers as far as Im aware. You arent looking at things the from the right perspective to even begin to comprehend it. It's just not worth my time to address all your points individually because you're far from open minded and just want to spin your narrative of bigotry. if you actually cared about what they actually did you at least would provide sources. A greek philosopher was responsible for the concept of men being superior to women and the greeks even started the veiling women thing before it spread to the abrahamic religions. The culture had different stuff going on at different times. They would joke about gay sex and would worry about people thinking themselves are effeminate but that doesn't mean they ddin't accept homosexuals it just means they werent too unlike people today. So, should I pretend that homosexuality is something "normal"? Intolerance in what aspect? That word (intolerance) does not work with me. On the contrary, I make fun of it. The points have back from raw sources. That is not your case. If you read the article, you will see the sources. The ancient Greeks did not just look down homosexuals. They marginalized and punished homosexuals with severe sentences. For the ancient Greeks, homosexuals were abnormal. Read and then refute if you can. Do you think living as a citizen of second class was just a matter of "look down"? Deprivation of attending political, cultural, religious or popular events of any kind is just "look down" for you? Homosexual art? In which period? The immediate periode before fall of Ancient Greeks? Remember that several seemingly homosexual arts (Layo), actually served as tools to reprove homosexuality. The second and third part of this subject I will publish in other threads. |
_Nemrod_Jun 28, 2017 10:53 PM
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| I can easily buy that modern academia plays up the gayness of ancient Greece as much as possible. In fact, it's absurd on the face of it to think they wouldn't. There will of course be a grain of truth, that being that the late decadent stage would have become more permissive. Beyond that, artists tend to be more libertine than the average. I don't know how accepted some of this artwork was. Certainly the depictions I've seen of some effeminate male being bent over by a more dominant one are not in the upper echelons on classical Greek art. There's a decadence in both the quality and content. This cycle happens over and over, and yet the left either just doesn't realize what's happening, or they think the technocracy will save us from our own dysfunction. I think they're in for a rude awakening. |
Altairius said: "The left" - Please, define "the left" of Ancient Greece. I am genuinely curious. This cycle happens over and over, and yet the left either just doesn't realize what's happening, or they think the technocracy will save us from our own dysfunction. I think they're in for a rude awakening. |
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traed said: How would you know, you don't look a few thousand years old.Not reading all this shit. The greeks were openly homosexual and didn't give a fuck. They didn't have homosexual marriage though but that was because marriage wasn't about love it was a contract between families about carrying on family lineage. I'm part Greek myself. |
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Pirating_Ninja said: Altairius said: "The left" - Please, define "the left" of Ancient Greece. I am genuinely curious. This cycle happens over and over, and yet the left either just doesn't realize what's happening, or they think the technocracy will save us from our own dysfunction. I think they're in for a rude awakening. The degenerate, r-selected elements of that society. I believe that left and right are essentially biological phenomena at their root. http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/the-theory/rk-selection-theory/ |
| I don't think so, though I recall homo pedo shet being a thing in Ancient Rome. But don't quote me as an expert. |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Gay pedophilic rape was accepted and promoted by the Spartans. The Zoroastrian Persians should have been the heroes of 300. |
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Altairius said: Great. Pirating_Ninja said: "The left" - Please, define "the left" of Ancient Greece. I am genuinely curious. The degenerate, r-selected elements of that society. I believe that left and right are essentially biological phenomena at their root. http://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/the-theory/rk-selection-theory/ Do me a favor - Don't use the word "biology", what you are referencing is, at best, evolutionary psychology; Although, even then, this blog is speculative pseudoscience pretending to fall under the umbrella of an already iffy field (i.e. evolutionary psychology) which cannot be scientifically proven. What's even more unforgivable is that this retarded "anonymous conservative" is basically tainting a theory drummed up in the 1960's and copy-pasting it to areas it doesn't apply too. There are so many flaws with this, including actually statistically showing Conservatives = K; Liberal = r. (Edit: For example, the original theory talks about mating strategies; I would say that the concept of a core family, and monogamy is relatively Conservative. On the other hand any form of polygamy, either polygyny or polyandry, would be "liberal". In this case, liberal = K, Conservative = r, as conservatives are the ones abiding to herd mentality to ensure all can obtain a mate. What greater disparity is there than the opportunity to produce offspring? The guy can't even properly apply his own bull@#$%.) Finally, perhaps the biggest punchline in this farce is that you failed to understand my original point - That the term "liberal" or "conservative", as well as the values they entail are not universal across human history. The retard author here points to notions like "self-defense" being "conservative". Does that mean then, that in Ancient Greece their was a group of "liberals" who were pro-choice, pro-gay sex, and anti-spear ownership? Your post is wrong on so many fronts it is actually an insult to intellect in general - I grow weary that what is going to eventually destroy "Western Culture" isn't extreme PC or anything of that nature, but this idiotic rise of armchair psychologists who understand as much about "science" as Frank who has been flipping burgers at McDonalds for the last 30 years. (On a side note, surprised you would link a blog post relating to some pseudo form of Evolutionary Psychology, since most of the theories in this field are extremely unkind to Conservatism, especially religion and this constant clutching to "morality") |
Pirating_NinjaJun 29, 2017 10:07 PM
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| @Pirating_Ninja You seem rustled. That's just the general theory. There is a whole book expounding on it. He doesn't apply it to ancient Greece. I was doing that, in the sense that we see a similar cycle with the rise and fall of civilizations. The tendencies that we call "the left" today manifested themselves differently in different societies. (Edit: For example, the original theory talks about mating strategies; I would say that the concept of a core family, and monogamy is relatively Conservative. On the other hand any form of polygamy, either polygyny or polyandry, would be "liberal". In this case, liberal = K, Conservative = r, as conservatives are the ones abiding to herd mentality to ensure all can obtain a mate. What greater disparity is there than the opportunity to produce offspring? The guy can't even properly apply his own bull@#$%.) No, that demonstrates that liberals are more promiscuous/less selective in their breeding and don't put as much care into their potential offspring. |
AltairiusJun 29, 2017 10:17 PM
| In other words, nothing to say? Altairius said: A book is not a peer-reviewed journal. Anyone can write a book and claim anything. Without any kind of scientific backing it doesn't even deserve the honor of being called a "hypothesis" (as a hypothesis at least requires an extensive review of the material relevant to said hypothesis). That's just the general theory. There is a whole book expounding on it. Altairius said: I would hope not. He doesn't apply it to ancient Greece. Altairius said: You have gone so far off the r/K theory at this point I honestly have no idea why it is the basis for your "theory".I was doing that, in the sense that we see a similar cycle with the rise and fall of civilizations. Altairius said: 0_0The tendencies that we call "the left" today manifested themselves differently in different societies. You have essentially made the term "the left" mean absolutely nothing. This argument is so backwards I'll leave it at that. Altairius said: Not at all, in fact it means liberals put more care into potential off-spring in polygynous societies (which is the norm for mammalian species). In polygynous systems females can be more selective, meaning that 20 women can all mate with the #1 male; Which across all members would mean a greater percentage of off-spring got "preferred" genes than in a monogamous society. And while 20 sounds ridiculous, within human society the resource disparity is large enough that the number would be many magnitudes greater than 1:20 at the top. Polygyny is the system in which humans evolved, and it is only in very recent history that humans have started practicing monogamy (around the beginning of human civilizations, it is believed monogamy is a requirement for society as disparities in potentials to reproduce are especially violent in humans). Male parental investment (one reason for monogamy), while higher in humans, is only necessary in terms of resources. Monogamy itself is not needed, just that it is only better for the female if her share of the resources in a polygynous relationship still is greater than what she could receive in a monogomous relationship - which again, with resource disparities being what they are, this is more than likely.(Edit: For example, the original theory talks about mating strategies; I would say that the concept of a core family, and monogamy is relatively Conservative. On the other hand any form of polygamy, either polygyny or polyandry, would be "liberal". In this case, liberal = K, Conservative = r, as conservatives are the ones abiding to herd mentality to ensure all can obtain a mate. What greater disparity is there than the opportunity to produce offspring? The guy can't even properly apply his own bull@#$%.) No, that demonstrates that liberals are more promiscuous/less selective in their breeding and don't put as much care into their potential offspring. |
Pirating_NinjaJun 29, 2017 10:31 PM
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| @Pirating_Ninja Peer review only means so much when your peers immediately reject anything conservative friendly or politically incorrect out of hand. This is what I'm getting at. I'm saying that at the root of the policies of the left there are tendencies that long predate the modern political landscape. 20 women mating with the "#1 male" does not strike me as showing particular care for the potential offspring. More like a mindless adherence to one's biological urges. |
Turnip said: traed said: How would you know, you don't look a few thousand years old.Not reading all this shit. The greeks were openly homosexual and didn't give a fuck. They didn't have homosexual marriage though but that was because marriage wasn't about love it was a contract between families about carrying on family lineage. I'm part Greek myself. Thank you for the compliment. I try not to step into the sun to age me. BarryManilow said: Gay pedophilic rape was accepted and promoted by the Spartans. The Zoroastrian Persians should have been the heroes of 300. Pedastry wasn't pedoppilia it was a relation with post-pubecent who usually were teens. They looked down on pedophilia as far as im aware. Supposedly their views of gay rape are kind of screwed up though they would look down on the victim more than the offender because they saw it as emasculating. 6Nimrod6 said: So, should I pretend that homosexuality is something "normal"? Intolerance in what aspect? That word (intolerance) does not work with me. On the contrary, I make fun of it. The points have back from raw sources. That is not your case. If you read the article, you will see the sources. The ancient Greeks did not just look down homosexuals. They marginalized and punished homosexuals with severe sentences. For the ancient Greeks, homosexuals were abnormal. Read and then refute if you can. Do you think living as a citizen of second class was just a matter of "look down"? Deprivation of attending political, cultural, religious or popular events of any kind is just "look down" for you? Homosexual art? In which period? The immediate periode before fall of Ancient Greeks? Remember that several seemingly homosexual arts (Layo), actually served as tools to reprove homosexuality. The second and third part of this subject I will publish in other threads. Define "normal". I didn't even use the word intolerance. I did read through it but skimming around. For example those quotes, when searching those just using a short section of it in quotes no results turn up. This is the only place on all the internet that even has them. You provide no evidence it's legit. Yet you have no sources talking about them being second class and punished. You do realize many of the gods they worshipped had homosexual relationships in the mythology, right? The Ancient Greeks didn't fall. The power of the empire fell but their culture lived on while being ruled by other empires. Zephyros and Hyakinthos Attic red figure cup from Tarquinia, circa 480 BCE. Boston Museum of Fine Arts.  Dont bother. You couldnt even provide sources for this one. I actually would be more interested in the topic and more likely to believe it if sources were provided and if it wasn't coming from a bigot trying to push an agenda. |
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| A lot of people there were bissexual, not homosexual per se, or at least very open-minded, if you know what I mean. Not too much to say as I don't know lol |
| Today they say you're crazy, tomorrow they will say you're a genious. |
| why does it matter if ancient greece supported homosexuality or not? they also supported bestiality, pedophilia, incests....you name it |
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Nigami_Shin said: They didn't support pedophilia. Pedastry was with teenagers. I don't know where you got the bestiality idea from but knowing you, you're jusst talking out of your ass.why does it matter if ancient greece supported homosexuality or not? they also supported bestiality, pedophilia, incests....you name it |
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traed said: Nigami_Shin said: They didn't support pedophilia. Pedastry was with teenagers. I don't know where you got the bestiality idea from but knowing you, you're jusst talking out of your ass.why does it matter if ancient greece supported homosexuality or not? they also supported bestiality, pedophilia, incests....you name it well pederasty in ancient greece was with boys from 12 to probably 17 - And a 12yo isn't a teen. Many stories from ancient greece involve sex between humans and animals (minotauros, ledia and the swan, europa) or paintings (amphoras, bath houses, "brothels") |
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Altairius said: Proof?@Pirating_Ninja Peer review only means so much when your peers immediately reject anything conservative friendly or politically incorrect out of hand. Altairius said: many "policies of the left" did not exist before the modern political landscape. Saying there is some "root" to it all that determined what would be part of "the left" is merely an unsubstantiated claim that quite honestly has glaring flaws from the onset. (Largest among them being that such basic concepts that dictated the "morals" of right v. left were shaped upon current understandings of how the world worked at their respective time frames; As their understanding changed, so too did the underlying morals, making the notion that there is some mysterious correlation between groups throughout history based on political beliefs ridiculous)This is what I'm getting at. I'm saying that at the root of the policies of the left there are tendencies that long predate the modern political landscape. Altairius said: . . . 20 women mating with the "#1 male" does not strike me as showing particular care for the potential offspring. More like a mindless adherence to one's biological urges. What do you think Natural Selection is? (If you don't get what I am talking about, feel free to ask before completely guessing at what I am talking about; This is a fundamental concept of biology and it is why some 90%+ of mammalian species are polygynous.) |
Pirating_NinjaJun 30, 2017 6:31 AM
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For the ancient Greeks, the normal is that which harmonizes with nature. It is evident that they saw homosexuality as something abnormal. traed said: I did read through it but skimming around. For example those quotes, when searching those just using a short section of it in quotes no results turn up. This is the only place on all the internet that even has them. You provide no evidence it's legit. Unfortunately my level of English is not suitable for professional work, so it would not be rare that my quotes can not be seen on google. However I shared the sources in the first post. Some of these sources are raw and the others are directly connected with raw sources. it is your problem if you do not trust in raw sources (ancient Greeks). Not mine. For the other hand, I am not surprised that it is difficult to find data based on raw sources in English-speaking historiography. This one is full of lies against the Ibero-Sphere, Germany, France, Italy, Christendom (Middle Ages), Ancient Egypt and Not-Caucasian races. Why would it be different with the ancient Greeks? In any case, I do not think it is impossible to find decent Anglo-Saxon authors who offer arguments based on raw sources. traed said: Yet you have no sources talking about them being second class and punished. You do realize many of the gods they worshipped had homosexual relationships in the mythology, right? Read the sources I shared, especially Demosthenes. Did the Greek gods have homosexual relationships? Really? Who says that? The Greeks who destroyed in little time a glory built for many centuries? Decadent Victorian to the XIX century? History Channel? Hollywood movies maybe? traed said: The Ancient Greeks didn't fall. The power of the empire fell but their culture lived on while being ruled by other empires. Loss Political, Economic and Military powers also is fall. Yes, the Greek culture fortunately survived and the Byzantine Greeks (Eastern Roman Empire) were their main heirs. However, one does not have to be a genius to realize that it was the recovery of traditional Greek morality that granted success to Christianity in the Hellenes. The early Christians knew very well that it was much less difficult to conquer societies that respected and enforced the laws of nature, for which reason the "conversion" of Greece and Rome was a priority task for them. Christianity would never have succeeded in a sodomite society. Nigami_Shin said: why does it matter if ancient greece supported homosexuality or not? they also supported bestiality, pedophilia, incests....you name it traed said: Zephyros and Hyakinthos Attic red figure cup from Tarquinia, circa 480 BCE. Boston Museum of Fine Arts. What is the meaning of that picture? Now let's review this picture: Anyone would say that the picture promotes Pederasty, but is it really so? The truth is that the image represents Layo, a mythological person cursed by Zeus for having committed a homosexual and pederastic action. It was this act contrary to nature that would cause the gods to send the famous Sphinx to Thebes who, with a lion's body, a woman's head and a bird's wings, was dedicated to terrorizing the Theban fields. The infamous Layo, then married to Yocasta, will receive from the oracle of Delphi the warning of his future: he should not have a family; a man of his progeny would kill his father and marry his mother. It was inevitable Moira (destiny) for the Greeks. The story is well-known: in time, Oedipus, his son, will end up committing parricide and marrying his own mother; Yocasta will hang himself; Oedipus will tear out his eyes, ending his life in exile; Etéocles and Polinices, son of incest, will die in singular combat while Antigone and Ismele, will be condemned to death ... And all for Layo homosexual relationship.... This myth, clearly devised to prevent homosexuality, allowed the Greeks to draw several morals: on the one hand, that the aberration was always punished by the gods, sooner or later, whether or not it was known. On the other, that to Aidós was always supported by Nemesis, the goddess of "karmic" revenge. Finally, that the sins of the parents were paid, at least, to the third generation. The true is that painting I publish is much more revealing than yours, however, we can see this one was used to reprobate and stigmatize homosexuality and pedophilia. So what mean your picture traed? what happen with Apollon and Hyacinth myth? That is something that I will share in the next days. BarryManilow said: Gay pedophilic rape was accepted and promoted by the Spartans. The Zoroastrian Persians should have been the heroes of 300. Really?  In the next post I will share information about "Greek homosexual militias" (Spartans). I suggest you keep an eye out for my next post in this thread. |
_Nemrod_Jun 30, 2017 12:06 PM
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Pirating_Ninja said: Altairius said: Proof?@Pirating_Ninja Peer review only means so much when your peers immediately reject anything conservative friendly or politically incorrect out of hand. Altairius said: many "policies of the left" did not exist before the modern political landscape. Saying there is some "root" to it all that determined what would be part of "the left" is merely an unsubstantiated claim that quite honestly has glaring flaws from the onset. (Largest among them being that such basic concepts that dictated the "morals" of right v. left were shaped upon current understandings of how the world worked at their respective time frames; As their understanding changed, so too did the underlying morals, making the notion that there is some mysterious correlation between groups throughout history based on political beliefs ridiculous)This is what I'm getting at. I'm saying that at the root of the policies of the left there are tendencies that long predate the modern political landscape. Altairius said: . . . 20 women mating with the "#1 male" does not strike me as showing particular care for the potential offspring. More like a mindless adherence to one's biological urges. What do you think Natural Selection is? (If you don't get what I am talking about, feel free to ask before completely guessing at what I am talking about; This is a fundamental concept of biology and it is why some 90%+ of mammalian species are polygynous.) In terms of selecting good genes, sure, or at least for lower mammalian species. When we take into account the human ability to think ahead and determine the best environment for raising the offspring though, going and just getting knocked up by the most alpha Chad is probably not the most K-selected behavior. I don't think this is quite what we see in the breeding patterns of liberals anyway though. It's more just promiscuous sex generally, like we see in rabbits, which is a definitive r-selected species. |
Haha yea plus they made statues of dudes with their dicks out what a bunch of homosexuals |
Altairius said: Pirating_Ninja said: Proof? many "policies of the left" did not exist before the modern political landscape. Saying there is some "root" to it all that determined what would be part of "the left" is merely an unsubstantiated claim that quite honestly has glaring flaws from the onset. (Largest among them being that such basic concepts that dictated the "morals" of right v. left were shaped upon current understandings of how the world worked at their respective time frames; As their understanding changed, so too did the underlying morals, making the notion that there is some mysterious correlation between groups throughout history based on political beliefs ridiculous) . . . What do you think Natural Selection is? (If you don't get what I am talking about, feel free to ask before completely guessing at what I am talking about; This is a fundamental concept of biology and it is why some 90%+ of mammalian species are polygynous.) In terms of selecting good genes, sure, or at least for lower mammalian species. When we take into account the human ability to think ahead and determine the best environment for raising the offspring though, going and just getting knocked up by the most alpha Chad is probably not the most K-selected behavior. I don't think this is quite what we see in the breeding patterns of liberals anyway though. It's more just promiscuous sex generally, like we see in rabbits, which is a definitive r-selected species. For starters, r/K theory is talking about breeding patterns within species - saying a species is all one or the other instantaneously rejects the theory as being applicable to that species (i.e. rabbits in this case). Second of all, "superior genes" is a misnomer if you apply that to mean intellect / strength / w/e. Superior genes are the genes that produce the most off-spring as subsequent generations will contain more and more of w/e trait it is that enables this advantage in reproduction. In fact, due to humanity facing very few natural selection pressures in the modern era, traits such as intellect or strength which would have once predicted the chance to survive until the age to reproduce now hold next to no meaning. Stop babbling about such contradictory statements towards natural selection if you are going to bring up a theory from the field of evolutionary psychology. And finally, you are still applying pseudo-science dreamt up in the 60's to explain political standing - something even the theory itself did not address. To say what you are spouting is nothing more than idealistic drivel would be an insult to the concept of "ideals". Also, on a side note - Nice job addressing both how this is applicable to the entirety of human history when political concepts such as "right" and "left" didn't exist; Or any proof to dismiss academia in favor of a blog post / novelist. |
Pirating_NinjaJul 3, 2017 5:57 PM
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| Due to lack of time, I have not culminated with the all the post related to this topic, but I want to advance something. @Damichan, The raw sources I have given are not only translated in English, but also in Spanish, French and German. Not trusting a translation is acceptable but not trusting on several sources that match and in turn belong to different times, is simply absurd, especially when we talk about translations made with the help of Greek professionals.....And you do not want to say that Greek translators of different times were useless, right? That you are Greek does not tell me anything because I personally know Greeks with gray hairs on their head who do not think like you. Here an anecdote fact. It is known that after a movie about Alexander the Great in 2014, a group of 25 Greek lawyers threatened to denounce Warner Bross and Oliver Stone for distorting the story of Alexander the Great. That film was only at the box office 4 days in Greece, being a complete failure. The truth is that all sources agree that Alexander the Great was not homosexual, but a highly sexually content man -something logical in athletes and military-. The best source of this comes from Plutarch (I'll write about it later). Now with regard to laws: In his "Contra Timarco", Esquines (389-314 BC) tells how among the famous Laws of Solon, the following provisions were prescribed against whoever had "etairese" (company of the same sex): "If any Athenian prostitute (homosexual relationship), he is not allowed to become one of the nine archons, nor is he consecrated a priest, or to exercise the judiciary by the people, or to perform any office, either inside or outside , Nor by lottery nor by election, nor made herald, nor pronounce opinion, nor enter public sanctuaries, nor carry a crown in the processions, nor pass through the surroundings of the agora. If any of this does, sentenced for prostitution is sentenced to death" For his part, the famous orator and politician Demosthenes (384-322 BC), enumerates some measures of the same tenor in his "Contra Androcio", specifying that those who have taken part in acts of sodomy, the law "prohibits to speak in public or submit motions " The list goes on and on, however, it is easy to see that these penalties are punishment. ------ With a little luck, in a couple of days I can share the post dedicated to Sparta in this thread |
_Nemrod_Jul 3, 2017 10:00 PM
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| @Pirating_Ninja Well, wouldn't natural selection manifest differently in different species / different societies? It seems that you haven't disagreed that liberals are more promiscuous, at any rate. Now, there's an obvious racial component to this that I think has to mentioned. Black, Hispanic and Muslim populations tend to exhibit this sort of behavior at higher rates than Whites and East Asians. Those groups also vote left at significantly higher rates than the latter two groups. So we see a pretty definitive trend of groups that have a lower ability to delay gratification leaning to the left, with blacks having both the shortest time horizon and leaning farthest to the left. |
Altairius said: No. @Pirating_Ninja Well, wouldn't natural selection manifest differently in different species / different societies? This is actually kind of annoying, I have no idea why you comment on something as basic as natural selection if you have no idea what it entails. This goes beyond being a "psuedo-intellectual", you are just applying random bull @#$% willy nilly, with absolutely 0 understanding of basic components - This kind of brazen stupidity will be what destroys the West - A flagrant disregard for science is not something to be admired, and to bring in politically motivated bull @#$% to this psuedo-science to fit your world view helps absolutely nobody. Rude? Yes. True? Yes. Why? Natural Selection is at its core a theory that revolves around the basic logic that if a trait increases the likelihood / # of offspring produced, it will be selected for in a population until eventually the entire population will posses the trait (i.e. 1 step to evolution). The reason being that the greater # of off-spring produced, the greater % of the pop. has the trait in question - with each subsequent generation there is even more individuals with the trait. Now, when applied to a real species (for example, humans), it is far more complex than this however the very basic core tenant still stands and any trait can be linked back to this concept. In this regard, natural selection does not manifest differently - regardless of species. Altairius said: Well, I was merely pointing out that by your own logic (i.e. liberals = more promiscuous), that the moron w/ the blog has flipped r and K backwards. Consider it humoring you to point out an inconsistency in your own claim.It seems that you haven't disagreed that liberals are more promiscuous Altairius said: Oh god. Here we go . . . Can I just add, you have seriously shifted the posts so far at this point that you are quite literally grasping at straws. However this is, of course, the problem with trying to pass off completely and utter drivel as "science". My advice, don't read a blog post by a politically motivated moron w/ no accreditation about applying a hypothesis formulated in the 1960s to political identity. One would typically see 1 or 2 red flags when given that description, but bias works in mysterious ways I suppose. there's an obvious racial component to this that I think has to mentioned. Altairius said: Eh? Pretty sure Muslims are far more conservative than your stereotypical Asian or White. I don't really agree with any of this, but arguing to you about race is just going to be you linking me to random ass sites that have a crusader as their logo so I'll pass on all of that.Black, Hispanic and Muslim populations tend to exhibit this sort of behavior at higher rates than Whites and East Asians. Altairius said: This is stupid for multiple reasons. Those groups also vote left at significantly higher rates than the latter two groups. So we see a pretty definitive trend of groups that have a lower ability to delay gratification leaning to the left, with blacks having both the shortest time horizon and leaning farthest to the left. 1) "Blacks", are actually pretty conservative around the world. You application of certain communities within America, propagated mostly by extreme poverty, to explain "social trends" is utterly moronic when you look at the larger picture. Nobody is saying that Jacob Zuma is a liberal . . . 2) "Muslims", as you have often been very quick to point out - are extremely conservative. To calim them as part of the left is moronic to say the least. Don't get me wrong, any religious extremism is going to fall to the right. 3) Hispanics, are predominantly extremely catholic. Similar to the reason above, many hispanic countries are very conservative - and overall I would say the majority are conservative. (As a side note, can you provide any peer-reviewed articles linking a failure to delay gratification to being a "left" trait, or a racial one?) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The reason why they vote left in America has far more to do with people like you voting right - i.e. why the fuck would they vote for the same party as a dude who wants their asses deported and sent back to a country they know literally nothing about since their families have been living here for the last 3 generations and by all rights they are American. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ PS: If you comment anything about race I'll ignore it. I humored you with this post but that is it. You have shifted the posts so far the initial point was clearly you being an idiot hence 3 posts now where you fail to address or even attempt to refute my own refutations of your initial claims. Please do me a favor and stop calling upon science, especially biology, to explain societal trends. Not only is the application to specific trends inappropriate as it is not applicable, but you don't understand the core concepts behind the original theory making any and all attempts not only embarrassing on your own part, but worrying for people such as my self who wonder how bad our education system is to have failed to teach what natural selection is. |
Pirating_NinjaJul 3, 2017 10:25 PM
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| You're getting too rustled. Relax. Pirating_Ninja said: Now, when applied to a real species (for example, humans), it is far more complex than this however the very basic core tenant still stands and any trait can be linked back to this concept. This is basically what I meant by "manifesting differently among different species/societies". No, those groups vote left for the gibs and the pandering toward their group. It's a well documented strategy of the Democratic party. People like me voting right is a response to these trends. I'm more concerned with a group's tendency to vote for an ever increasing redistribution of wealth than their religiosity. Our education system has objectively failed all of us for the last half century at least. Go look up the work of Charles Murray and ask yourself why he was so roundly condemned by the supposedly apolitical academic establishment, and try not to use any appeals to authority in any attempted justification of this that you'd care to make. |
| Idk if it was accepted but that didn't stop the soldiers from gangbanging |
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| This is the most casual discussion I've seen. |
Nigami_Shin said: traed said: They didn't support pedophilia. Pedastry was with teenagers. I don't know where you got the bestiality idea from but knowing you, you're jusst talking out of your ass. well pederasty in ancient greece was with boys from 12 to probably 17 - And a 12yo isn't a teen. Many stories from ancient greece involve sex between humans and animals (minotauros, ledia and the swan, europa) or paintings (amphoras, bath houses, "brothels") It's not prepubescent though so it wasnt paedophilic. From what I read they didn't like people who tried to do stuff with those who had not hit puberty. In many cultures for that time it was pretty common of an age for sexual relationships or marriage. That's mythology though. I wouldnt take it as a good indicator of daily life. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| If I remember correctly in the anime Drifters (and in the manga source) they were referring to Greece and homosexuals when the one guy made a squad of muscular homosexual men. I think they were referring to that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes |
| @Damichan It is one thing not to translate immediately and another thing is the impossibility of translation. Not translating something in absolute form does not mean not translating the essence. Otherwise, complex materials of Socrates, Platon and Aristotle would lose much of their relevance due to the "impossibility" of translation or "variation of interpretations". The understanding of the teachings of Greek Philosophers is the same in all languages. If I discuss Aristotle's philosophy with a German, we would both talk about the same thing and not something with different meanings depending on the translation. Why would it be different when we talk about documents that are much easier to translate? Of course, the picture must be seen in complete form, but the truth is this one does not contradict the mentioned quotations. It is precisely because no exist contradiction that I made the following quotations from Plato: "When the male unites with the woman to procreate, the pleasure experienced is assumed by nature [kata physin], but is contrary to nature [para physin] when mating with a male, or when a female does with a woman, and those guilty of such enormities are driven by their slavery to pleasure " "We could force one of two in loving practices: or that no one dare touch any person born of the nobles and free except the husband to his own wife, nor to sow any profane or bastard seed in concubinage, nor, against nature, seed sterile in men - or we should totally extirpate the love for men ". The true, it is that exists is a great harmony between the whole picture and these quotes. Do not confuse being accepted with being "tolerated". If a homosexual could live as a second-class citizen, it is obvious that was "tolerated" but clearly that does not mean being accepted. You say that homosexuality was "common" in ancient Greece but you would have to ask yourself what mean "common" if we see the severe great disadvantages that homosexual received. In any case, follow the thread. In the next few days I will have more free time to share information and then we can debate with "equal conditions". After elaborating a post about "the Greek homosexual militia" (Sparta), some "homosexual paintings", the supposed "homosexual relations" of mythological characters (Achilles and Patroclus) and historical characters (Alexander the Great); It is of my interest to deal about Plato's banquet and the lies about the "legalization of pedophilia" |
_Nemrod_Jul 4, 2017 3:01 AM
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| Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men's behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity |
Damichan said: anyways i dont get why youre trying to fight back what i say. you asked a question so i answered with what i know from the ancient texts i read myself.. because why he made the thread. He thinks homosexuality is a"degeneration" and "aberration" https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1632213&show=50#msg51306437 You could literally be a time traveller that went to ancient Greece and he will still go on like he is because it screws up propoganda. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| I've seen similar information before. I believe some in academia try to paint past civilizations as gay paradises to justify their own viewpoints. Frankly speaking, homosexual unions seem to be a bizarre concept across all cultures. Things like pederasty and orgies may have been viewed as acceptable, but "gay marriage" would have been odd because marriage served a clear purpose to them. Either way, I guess a point that can be taken from this is to be careful about the concepts and ideas that you hear or are taught. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| Hi. I'm the closest thing you're going to get to an expert on this forum because, well, I am a college professor of history, my focus in grad school was ancient Greece and Rome, and I can actually read some ancient Greek. So, let me try to clear up some of this confusion, here. First, the idea of "homosexuality" in the modern sense didn't exist in the past. Men who preferred relationships with other men at the exclusion of women were often seen as effeminate and thus somewhat against the natural order. They were not actively oppressed in any legalistic sense (ancient societies didn't let them marry, though). What we would call "bisexuality," however, wasn't necessarily bad, and erotic relationships between older men and their younger wards were common and in fact encouraged in some cities, such as Athens. It should be noted that this wasn't always universal across time and space. Thebes was noted for its Sacred Band, a highly elite military unit of 150 homosexual couples. Whether or not they were exclusively homosexual or if the relationship was simply an extension of the "veteran-neophyte" relationship common in ancient Greek militaries, and thus temporary, is something about which I am not certain. Second, penetrative homosexual sex was a taboo in many ancient cultures. The Spartans were infamous for this and to tell someone they "did it like a Lakedaimonian" was a severe insult. The reason for this was that it feminized the penetrated male--women are penetrated by men and that was believed to be the natural order in many ancient societies. What was considered acceptable, however, was to thrust between the thighs. This is actually shown in ancient red-figure-ware and black-figure-ware vase paintings and other forms of art that survive. It did not feminize either of the couple. |
Second part So, was the homosexuality accepted and promoted in Ancient Greece? The Greek "homosexual militias"  Much has been said about the subject and with enormous self-confidence. Again it is to be noted that, just as no one will be so delusional to think that in closed environments, away from the opposite sex and subjected to enormous pressures such as militia, homosexuality can never be given, nor can it be said that sodomy is a common currency between the militias. The great French historian Marrou points it out in detail when he says that the friendship between the men of Greece, "(Is) a constant of warrior societies, where the manly medium tends to lock itself up. The material exclusion of women, any disappearance of women always provokes an offensive of male love (...). The question becomes even more acute in the military milieu: it tends to disqualify the normal love of man from woman, extolling an ideal based on masculine virtues (strength, courage, fidelity) and cultivating a properly male pride " .[1]. However, to think that love between comrades involved in itself sexual relations, "Far exceeds the data of our texts: it is one of those obscene exaggerations to which modern sociologists have often subjected rites and legends considered as" primitive ": hypotheses derived from an elementary psychoanalysis, how many naive repressions are not dissimulated In the soul of the scholars!"[2]. Male friendship was the normal pedagogical method in the Greek world, and that which developed between a young adolescent and adult had a formative value, an education primarily moral, modeling the character and personality of the young man under the direction of a man of older, teaching the values of loyalty, fidelity and moderation; Even more so in the militia, male topos by antonomasia. A paradigmatic case is constituted, for example, the famous Sacred Battalion of Tebas, denominated the "homosexual battalion" winner of the Spartans. What was it about? For an elite body of three hundred warriors formed by General Epaminondas (378 BC), which as a novel tactic blended into the military lines young soldiers with their tutors warriors, thus combining the experience of some and the daring of others.[3]. Many have wanted to see here a "gay battalion", however, going to the main sources of their history, it is the same Plutarch (the main source in the matter) who is responsible for demystifying the point. "The sacred battalion, it is said, was Gorgidas the first to form it with three hundred chosen men, to whom the city provided training and means of life. Some say that this formation was composed of lovers and loved ones (erastes and erómenos) (...) when the necessary thing was that the lover was arranged next to the beloved, because in the dangerous situations those of a tribe do not take into account the members of his tribe, nor those of a phrattry to his comrades of phratry, while the platoon organized according to the loving sentiment will be unbreakable and impassable: on occasion, the ones because they love their loved ones and the others by shame before those who love them will resist in the dangers of defending one another "[3]. And it even went to the authority of the general Philip to save the possible misinterpretations after their last battle, the one of Chaeronea: "It is said that Philip after the battle stopped at the place where the three hundred had fallen, and when they saw the corpses, all with their armor reached before by the sarisa (long spears) and mixed with each other, remained admired, and upon learning that this was the battalion of lovers and loved ones, tears broke out and said: 'Bad death have those who think of these who did or went through something embarrassing'[4]. It will not be, it seems, but certain poets who will begin with the myth of supposed carnal relation between these heroes, as denouncing in advance Plutarch: "And it is not at all, as the poets say, that among the Thebans the passion of Layo gave rise to this custom over lovers." [5] It is that there is clearly anti-sodomy evidence in the militarized nations, so it is surprising how certain serial authors and repeaters continue to preach the subject of a "Gay Greece" as something undisputed. Sparta is not left behind in the imagination either. The pace of life of the Spartan man, as we know, was intense; The militia was itself a whole universe; And a universe of men where the cult of manhood, camaraderie and the importance of the struggle for the Fatherland was everything. The same thing happened with the master-disciple relationship: each Spartan was the brother of another Spartan (even more so in the art of war). Now, from there to think of homosexuality as something accepted and even practiced as "national sport," there is a long stretch, as clarifies the same Xenophon speaking of the laws of Lycurgus: "If someone who was honest, caught the soul of a boy and tried to make him a friend and irreproachable relationship (master-disciple), praised him (Licurgo) and had the best education, On the other hand, if it was evident that he was attracted to his physique, he considered it dishonorable, and established that in Lacedemonia the lovers should depart from the boys, not least that the parents turn away from their children or the brothers of their brothers, as far as the pleasures of love "[6]. Because the teacher-student relationship, instructor-soldier, founded on respect and admiration, constituted in Sparta a real training, a way of learning, an instruction. The sacredness of this relationship was the foundation of military unity to this day. The Roman Aelius said that if two Spartan men "succumbed to temptation and permitted carnal relations, they should redeem the affront to the honor of Sparta by going into exile or terminating their own lives." Something analogous said Maximus of Tyre: "Any Spartan man who admires a laconian boy admires him only as he admires a very beautiful statue. For carnal pleasures of this kind are carry them by hubris and are forbidden "[7]. --------------- Sources: [1] Henry-Irenee Marrou, op. Cit., 48. [2] Idem, 49. [3] Plutarch, Parallel Lives, t. 3. Pelopidas, Gredos, Madrid 2006, 367-368. [4] Idem, 368-369. [5] Idem, 369. [6] Xenophon, Constitution of the Lacedaemonians, l. II, 13. [7] Maximus of Tyre, Dissertations, 20e. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- @Fvlminatvs, @RedRoseFring, @Luthandorius, @BarryManilow What thoughts do you have about it? Do they consider the contribution of the great French historian Henry-Irenee Marrou reliable, or do you think that the Greek documents are "indecipherable"? |
_Nemrod_Jul 5, 2017 4:53 AM
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6Nimrod6 said: What thoughts do you have about it? Do they consider the contribution of the great French historian Henry-Irenee Marrou reliable, or do you think that the Greek documents are "indecipherable"? Marrou is considered a little bit passe in the current political climate of the French academy, especially since the likes of Foucault, Derrida, etc., ascended to near-divine status as historians. I don't think there's much wrong with Marrou myself, though he does tend to wear his bias on his sleeve, which is helpful. I think in your quote he overstates the presence of homosexuality. We tend to be a very taxonomic society these days and the ancient world was much less a world of "objective classifications" so homosexuality was understood differently than it is today. My entire point is more that what we would call bisexuality was considered much more normal in much of ancient Greece. Homosexuality was ridiculed but not really condemned, mostly because the exclusively homosexual were perceived as effeminate and that, in ancient culture, was sort of a problem because 1) sex-based job distribution was, in some areas, still a matter of survival, and 2) marriage was for family creation and a homosexual couple could not produce children (legitimate or not). These things are tacit, though, and not really spelled out anywhere in the ancient sources. You have to recognize patterns in worldview. Besides, when you are talking about the ancient world, although we know tons, a lot is still conjecture. We could dig up documents tomorrow that could completely demolish everything we thought we knew about Greek sexuality. Honestly, the wikipedia article on Greek homosexuality basically summarizes the current academic consensus, at least in the Anglophonic world. The various linguistic spheres do differ, sometimes, in conclusions due to differing methodologies. |
| >"The" homosexuality Salvatia said: >Implying you're the penetrator :^)Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men's behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity |
 Nico- said: Conversations with people pinging/quoting me to argue about some old post I wrote years ago will not be entertained@Comic_Sans oh no y arnt ppl dieing i need more ppl dieing rly gud plot avansement jus liek tokyo ghoul if erbudy dies amirite |
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