In which category does Revolutionary Girl Utena ultimately falls?
| Most goddam pretentious show I've ever seen in my life, honestly. It embodies the very definition of the word. |
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Chiibi said: Most goddam pretentious show I've ever seen in my life, honestly. It embodies the very definition of the word. Mind explaining why you think so? Not that I disagree with you, but I didn't think it was that pretentious. |
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| I don't know I did not watch it, but I highly doubt that it is as good everyone says it is. |
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Snappynator said: Chiibi said: Most goddam pretentious show I've ever seen in my life, honestly. It embodies the very definition of the word. Mind explaining why you think so? Not that I disagree with you, but I didn't think it was that pretentious. The overload of symbolism and taboo relationships. Pretentiousness is a subjective thing.....but I felt that the show was "trying too hard" and trying to act smarter and deeper than it actually was, like "look at me, I'm so amazing...look at my amazing symbolism.....ASK ME WHAT IT MEANS!!" |
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| Penguindrum actually DOES have my interest. Looking forward to trying it soon.... |
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| I won't call it pretentious but it's just hard to wrap your head into. |
| Again with everyone calling things they don't like, "pretentious". |
 Banner credit to @turnip |
KonaKoffee4 said: Again with everyone calling things they don't like, "pretentious". Kona............. There are a bunch of anime I hate but this is the only title I'm going to call "pretentious". Why not call the other shows I hate "pretentious"? Because they aren't. They are stupid and/or boring. .............which is actually worse than being pretentious. lol |
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Chiibi said: KonaKoffee4 said: Again with everyone calling things they don't like, "pretentious". Kona............. There are a bunch of anime I hate but this is the only title I'm going to call "pretentious". Why not call the other shows I hate "pretentious"? Because they aren't. They are stupid and/or boring. .............which is actually worse than being pretentious. lol Lol boring is worse than anything. But how is something pretentious, smart, etc..? Like when people say that about anime I just don't get it. Sure there are things that try to appear deeper than they really are, but that is also subjective due to the meaning behind the symbolism and how the audience is affected by it. I just feel the word pretentious, when discussing shows, doesn't really mean anything other than "I don't like the message of the show". But in regards to utena, there are some people that were put off by the surrealism of it. Although, I usually suggest mawaru penguindrum to those people, if they want to try out an anime that is "fun" but with more meaning. |
| Banner credit to @turnip |
| I particularly hate pretentious stuff. That's why I fucking hate Evangelion. Utena, however, is actually awesome. While it runs borderline pretentious and a few times can slip to the other side, it doesn't embody it at all. |
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Fenryr19 said: I particularly hate pretentious stuff. That's why I fucking hate Evangelion. Utena, however, is actually awesome. While it runs borderline pretentious and a few times can slip to the other side, it doesn't embody it at all. Utena and NGE, Ikuhara and Hideaki, are two sides of the same coin. If NGE is pretentious, so is Utena. (neither is pretentious) |
Fenryr19 said: I particularly hate pretentious stuff. That's why I fucking hate Evangelion. Utena, however, is actually awesome. While it runs borderline pretentious and a few times can slip to the other side, it doesn't embody it at all. How in any way is Eva pretentious? And don't just say "muh religious symbolism" because that's not even the main focus of the show. |
| ...It is a half-surrealist, half-metafictional fairy tale that makes some unique social commentary. The series uses too much symbolism for its own good, with several obvious allegories appearing over and over again, but one doesn't have to think too much in order to understand what the writers are trying to say and what comparisons to real life are being drawn. The narrative could be more compelling and I am sure that the show would have benefited from less phallic allegories, but the anime is unique and interesting enough to be worth a watch. It also states things that are rarely stated and tries to reveal some uncomfortable truths, but it never tries to sound smarter than it is. The answer is neither. It isn't a masterpiece, it is just an anime that makes use of some unique tropes and aesthetics and doesn't have a pretentious bone in its body. |
Lease_of_LifeSep 18, 2016 5:25 PM
| "I will become his world and will make him my world" - You really should know who said this. "Firing at unarmed citizens is a feat that those without courage and a chivalrous spirit simply cannot accomplish." - Oskar von Reuenthal "No way Spirited Away is better than Akira. NO WAY." - Kanye West |
Chiibi said: Most goddam pretentious show I've ever seen in my life, honestly. It embodies the very definition of the word. THIS, THIS, THIS!!!! Honestly I found it weird when people insulting one of my favorite anime Kara no Kyoukai as pretentious for having much thematic expositions but Utena is 1000x more pretentious than even KnK and Evangelion combined. |
YouJan 17, 2017 7:12 AM
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Clebardman said: @You Not really surprised you didn't like it considering you hate EoE. Your allergy to symbolism is showing, dood :p Not really. I like KLK and for me KLK has symbolism that is tightly connected with the story, because the characters spoke about it (e.g on goku uniforms, life fibers, etc) while as for Utena, it's very loose or I might say that some of them is unrelated with the storyline and unnecessary because the overload amount of it, nor the characters spoke about it clearly once. While being so, while for Utena herself being reasonable enough, all other characters are being a super chuunibyou yet managed to achieved so much things, pretty much a wish fulfilment for chuunis? Also I used to think that Yuno Gasai is the worst depiction of yandere, but no, Nanami is worse. Wakaba on ep 19, I hate her just like Subaru on ep 18 and my hatred grew more on her on the episode when she tried to flirt with Akio. Another thing this anime makes me cringe is that there's at least one or more SoL comedic episode which isn't even funny in every arc (The first duel arc, Black Rose, and the Akio car) which is also, unnecessary. The way Akio recruit those who recruit their dueling partner such as Kozue to his side is unexplained enough too even after the recap episodes. I feel like this show throws symbolism for the sake of it and then tried to connect it with the story with a few seconds of taboo scenes but sorry, that doesn't work on me. People might use the word "surreal" or "symbolism" to defend this but I don't see how Utena effectively use the symbolism compared to others shows because it just too much and most of them isn't tightly connected enough or might be a miss. As for the pacing, I found that Utena try to be a slow episodic story but it failed to show the details within each episode story that I think if I judge it episodically, it's rushed af, hence the character chemistry feels forced. |
YouJan 17, 2017 7:43 AM
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| @You I think Utena and KlK are actually pretty similar, heh. KlK keeps paying hommages at many things, and Utena was the most prominent inspiration I could see with my limited knowledge. I can understand your arguments but KlK is guilty of all this to an extent too. Throwing sexual symbolism everywhere and tying it up with the story? Check. Filler comedic episode? Check. Super powerful chuuni ("confused") student council? Check. Some episodes are taken straight out of Utena (Ep 7 and 12 of KlK, respectively 19(?) and 12 in Utena). Akio recruits students by giving 'em a ride, and I'm not talking about his car ;3 I understand why you might not like having a train pass by during a conversation on a balcony, but I find it weird to hate it so hard when you like KlK :x |
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Clebardman said: @You I think Utena and KlK are actually pretty similar, heh. KlK keeps paying hommages at many things, and Utena was the most prominent inspiration I could see with my limited knowledge. I can understand your arguments but KlK is guilty of all this to an extent too. Throwing sexual symbolism everywhere and tying it up with the story? Check. Filler comedic episode? Check. Super powerful chuuni ("confused") student council? Check. Some episodes are taken straight out of Utena (Ep 7 and 12 of KlK, respectively 19(?) and 12 in Utena). Akio recruits students by giving 'em a ride, and I'm not talking about his car ;3 I understand why you might not like having a train pass by during a conversation on a balcony, but I find it weird to hate it so hard when you like KlK :x The problem is not tying up the symbolism with the story but how tight is thebsymbolism are tied. KLK symbolism are tightly connected thanks to the characters also spke about it while in Utena, none of the characters talk about that and just showing what Akio have done to Anthy in less than 5 seconds. As for the comedic episode, Utena put it whenever the shows like it. Like say in the middle of the 2nd arc a.k.a Nanami's cowbell episode or between the 3rd during Nanami's egg. If it was put between 2nd and 3rd arc fight, I can took this show more seriously. Whlist in KLK, the "filler" episodes was never put in the middle of a series of fighting episodes. Like say when Ryuko has to fight the elite four, the show become serious all along because there's no "filler" episodes on it, so yeah, my issues is not whether the filler episodes exists or not but rather the timing of placing that episodes. As for the SRC, it's indeed quite similar even the leader both have similar surname (Kiryuu and Kiryuuin) and I actually have no complaints on it but rather just wanted to point out. I know, but just when he did give Kozue etc a ride? The story only tried to show a person get the ride but not the partner. I was being thought that this anime is the most feminist anime but why what I got is the justification of all male (except Luka) is a playboy and female being easily attracted by them? Why besides Utena herself, none of the girls are being kickass compared to the boys? This is the main reason of me hating Wakaba the most. But yeah that's just my opinion :P |
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You said: I was being thought that this anime is the most feminist anime but why what I got is the justification of all male (except Luka) is a playboy and female being easily attracted by them? Why besides Utena herself, none of the girls are being kickass compared to the boys? This is the main reason of me hating Wakaba the most. But yeah that's just my opinion :P Well, the characters are all unsufferable, it's not just the males, Utena is seriously getting on my nerves with her holier-than-thou attitude. And Juri kicks ass ;3 |
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You said: http://imgur.com/a/550OKThe problem is not tying up the symbolism with the story but how tight is thebsymbolism are tied. KLK symbolism are tightly connected thanks to the characters also spke about it while in Utena, none of the characters talk about that and just showing what Akio have done to Anthy in less than 5 seconds. Wait, so you want characters to directly describe symbols to the viewers? Otherwise, your criticism is nonsensical. |
TonyThemeJan 18, 2017 4:04 AM
TonyTheme said: You said: http://imgur.com/a/550OKThe problem is not tying up the symbolism with the story but how tight is thebsymbolism are tied. KLK symbolism are tightly connected thanks to the characters also spke about it while in Utena, none of the characters talk about that and just showing what Akio have done to Anthy in less than 5 seconds. Wait, so you want characters to directly describe symbols to the viewers? Otherwise, your criticism is nonsensical. Not directly, hell I'll dislike KLK too if it needs to be described directly. But it can be shown by how the characters convo with other characters instead of like the pic you shown to me, putting an arrow on the symbolism. It's like the film trying to say "look, it's a symbolism!" in a forced way and by so, making the show tries to be smart. A truly smart show don't need to point the symbolism with hand like that, as how the hands aren't shown in other episodes. Why don't you just use it to all the epsiodes instead of just one? For me its looks like the director thought "OMG this symbol is difficult to be read than the others, but I need them, oh yeah let's use pointing hands to make the audience look at it! I bet they won't complain about it!" failure to show the symbolism naturally is a failure for me to make it not being pretentious. Anyways regarding your point on criticism: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1575213 I've come into conclusions that "I agree with the criticism"=valid criticism while "I don't agree with this criticism"=invalid criticism. Well since you like it then all criticism of hating it will be invalid. The same with the shows I like and you don't. This already happens with me and another MAL user called zal, we've debated for long about 2-3 of our favorite show that one of us have kind of different opinions but never come into conclusion. Clebardman said: You said: I was being thought that this anime is the most feminist anime but why what I got is the justification of all male (except Luka) is a playboy and female being easily attracted by them? Why besides Utena herself, none of the girls are being kickass compared to the boys? This is the main reason of me hating Wakaba the most. But yeah that's just my opinion :P Well, the characters are all unsufferable, it's not just the males, Utena is seriously getting on my nerves with her holier-than-thou attitude. And Juri kicks ass ;3 Utena is too lawful good yes, hence why my recommendation for Utena I've just created. (#DankRecs is my series of recs which both shows seems to have no similarities but I tryhard to found them.) |
YouJan 18, 2017 4:48 AM
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| Yeah, you just dismantled your own point. Is it hard to get, random, or just too obvious? Regardless, you missed the point of it all, which I will explain further down. You're trying to use your supposition of the director's motive or mind state to criticize a show that you've shown a poor understanding of in the first place. Your criticism is nonsensical not because I disagree with it, but because it's illogical. You say there's no clear discussion of symbols or relation to characters (their arcs and whatever else), the themes, but there is. And it all ties together into this particular character that actually touches on many things central to the narrative, other characters, and it refers back to earlier parts of the show while clearly foreshadowing the very end of this arc . The arrows pointing to a particular part of the screen is a quirk of a director that actually appears in other shows (I'll get back to you on that). The point really was to point out the artificiality of it (something Utena does frequently) and how he was manipulated. It was a giant ruse to get him interested into the research orchestrated by Akio very clearly. Context is key. It's also self-referential e.g. the butterfly morphing back was shown many times before when people are descending down the elevator. Those people were being manipulated by Mikage. Mikage is doing to others what was done to him and he doesn't even realize it. Even the memories we see in that episode are delusions (another reoccurring thing), he himself is the one who burned down the mansion and so on. Your critiques hold little weight. You said: This was entirely contradicted by what I just said and the images I posted. There's plenty of valid criticisms of Utena, but I've failed to see one by you.The problem is not tying up the symbolism with the story but how tight is thebsymbolism are tied. KLK symbolism are tightly connected thanks to the characters also spke about it while in Utena, none of the characters talk about that and just showing what Akio have done to Anthy in less than 5 seconds. |
TonyThemeJan 18, 2017 5:22 AM
TonyTheme said: Yeah, you just dismantled your own point. Is it hard to get, random, or just too obvious? Regardless, you missed the point of it all, which I will explain further down. You're trying to use your supposition of the director's motive or mind state to criticize a show that you've shown a poor understanding of in the first place. Your criticism is nonsensical not because I disagree with it, but because it's illogical. You say there's no clear discussion of symbols or relation to characters (their arcs and whatever else), the themes, but there is. And it all ties together into this particular character that actually touches on many things central to the narrative, other characters, and it refers back to earlier parts of the show while clearly foreshadowing the very end of this arc . The arrows pointing to a particular part of the screen is a quirk of a director that actually appears in other shows (I'll get back to you on that). The point really was to point out the artificiality of it (something Utena does frequently) and how he was manipulated. It was a giant ruse to get him interested into the research orchestrated by Akio very clearly. Context is key. It's also self-referential e.g. the butterfly morphing back was shown many times before when people are descending down the elevator. Those people were being manipulated by Mikage. Mikage is doing to others what was done to him and he doesn't even realize it. Even the memories we see in that episode are delusions (another reoccurring thing), he himself is the one who burned down the mansion and so on. Your critiques hold little weight. You said: This was entirely contradicted by what I just said and the images I posted. There's plenty of valid criticisms of Utena, but I've failed to see one by you.The problem is not tying up the symbolism with the story but how tight is thebsymbolism are tied. KLK symbolism are tightly connected thanks to the characters also spke about it while in Utena, none of the characters talk about that and just showing what Akio have done to Anthy in less than 5 seconds. Well firstly I kinda want to answer that the symbolism is definitely not the latter of what you're saying and the most accurate is probably the random one. I get that the whole thing are Akio's grand scheme to get his splitted power back and open the rose gate to save Anthy, and the difference of the butterfly and leaf picture shows the unreliable narrator, but is it necessary to point that out like this 👉? And from every review of this series, all of them always said that the show is complex and tackles out a lot of philosophical topic but I failed to see it as so. For me it's just about a hero who tried to save girls and get exhausted from it, then the girl sacrificing herself and due to not being able to endure it, she split herself into two persona and seal her suffering self inside the gate. The hero also suffers from this split and their powers are also being split too. Hence why Akio did a lot of research to retrieve Anthy, which ended up as the school, dueling system, and inviting Utena. But in the end, his plan failed but Utena insisted to save Anthy. She succeeded, at the cost of emm IYKWIM. That's all right? CMIIW. The incest etc isn't even the main theme for me, but instead it's the consequences of being a hero/prince who save people. How's that as deep as what people said? |
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| Honestly, I understand why people don't like it (the repetitions, the useless arc in the middle of it, the 9845 metaphores...) and I agree that it's really pretentious........ but I can't help but love it |
| This show is honestly the fucking best. |
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| I wouldn’t call it a ‘masterpiece’, I’m not into that word, but Utena is pretty singular for me. Symbolism can’t really be categorised as something hard, for me, you either get it or you don’t is how it is. Meaning that, without thinking about it at all, the answer behind the symbolism seeps into you or it doesn’t. Well, it depends on the type of person you are, I guess and what experiences you’ve had, to understand the references. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but that’s how it is. I never thought of it as ‘pretentious’, though the word has different connotations for me than for most people, but no, Utena is just a singular allegory. |
| Utena's one of a kind |
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