Asuna vs. Suguha

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TitanAnteus said:
The author just wanted to write a character that was popular with girls through what he perceives as an ideal personality or his version of the Gary Stu.

Asuna becoming damsel in distress was to be expected. Kirito is the main character and it was the best reason the author could come up with to put him into another game.
Why include sugu? Because it's an mmo and a community thing so he wanted to keep that vibe. Who else to be the travel partner but a hot girl he can't date because incest.

1#They are not Gary Stu
2#So I guess Asuna is a damsel in distress in the next 2-3 arc/games right?
3#Because he was willing to date all the other girls right?(excluding Sachi)

Jan 9, 2013 12:50 PM

#53

TitanAnteus

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ssjokg said:

TitanAnteus said:
The author just wanted to write a character that was popular with girls through what he perceives as an ideal personality or his version of the Gary Stu.

Asuna becoming damsel in distress was to be expected. Kirito is the main character and it was the best reason the author could come up with to put him into another game.
Why include sugu? Because it's an mmo and a community thing so he wanted to keep that vibe. Who else to be the travel partner but a hot girl he can't date because incest.

1#They are not Gary Stu
2#So I guess Asuna is a damsel in distress in the next 2-3 arc/games right?
3#Because he was willing to date all the other girls right?(excluding Sachi)

Kirito is a Gary Stu.

...I'm just talking about the anime here.

What? I just said the author wanted to have a community vibe because it's an MMO and he likes choosing girls as part of that community. If there's anything to be said from that third statement it'd be the reverse. All the other girls were willing to date him(including sachi)

Jan 9, 2013 1:03 PM

#54

AirStyles

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For those 2?

Easily Sugu.

But both of them combine and they still won't touch Sachi.

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Jan 9, 2013 1:29 PM

#55

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TitanAnteus said:

ssjokg said:

TitanAnteus said:
The author just wanted to write a character that was popular with girls through what he perceives as an ideal personality or his version of the Gary Stu.

Asuna becoming damsel in distress was to be expected. Kirito is the main character and it was the best reason the author could come up with to put him into another game.
Why include sugu? Because it's an mmo and a community thing so he wanted to keep that vibe. Who else to be the travel partner but a hot girl he can't date because incest.

1#They are not Gary Stu
2#So I guess Asuna is a damsel in distress in the next 2-3 arc/games right?
3#Because he was willing to date all the other girls right?(excluding Sachi)

Kirito is a Gary Stu.

...I'm just talking about the anime here.

What? I just said the author wanted to have a community vibe because it's an MMO and he likes choosing girls as part of that community. If there's anything to be said from that third statement it'd be the reverse. All the other girls were willing to date him(including sachi)

1.Gary Stu is a FLAWLESS character and ALL the characters in SAO,especially Kirito, have flaws.If you give him the Gary Stu label because he was in the top of both games while ignoring his mistakes,trauma, overconfidence then ok.Every char in every anime is a Gary Stu if we do that.

2."Asuna becoming damsel in distress was to be expected. Kirito is the main character and it was the best reason the author could come up with to put him into another game."

Anime or LN it is the same story(mostly).Clearly the writer had more reasons for Kirito to enter another game.

3.You said that he cant date Sugu because of incest.He wouldnt date any other girl except Asuna OR Sachi if she was alive since she was his first love.
And no.Kirito had feelings for Sachi as stated by the writer himself.For Sachi he was someone that could protect her.Feeling safe=/=love.She showed no signs of love in the original SAO.That may change in SAO:Progressive.And no not all girls want to date him.Asuna,Liz,Sugu and maybe Sinon were the only ones till now.

Jan 9, 2013 1:35 PM

#56

pokecenter

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There could be more options; at least ''none'' and ''both'' . I don't dislike Suguha, that ''incest'' thing for me is bs. I don't dislike Asuna either, all depends how the things turn out.

Jan 9, 2013 1:59 PM

#57

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ssjokg said:

1.Gary Stu is a FLAWLESS character and ALL the characters in SAO,especially Kirito, have flaws.If you give him the Gary Stu label because he was in the top of both games while ignoring his mistakes,trauma, overconfidence then ok.Every char in every anime is a Gary Stu if we do that.

You do know that Gary Stu's can have weaknesses on the story level, right? All that matters is that the weaknesses they have are only an excuse, as they are not used at all in story progression and on meta level. A common example for a typical Mary/Gary Stu weakness would be the typical "Oh, I'm so clumsy!" said character proclaims, but which is never utilized in a story as the character always succeeds in such situation against the most uneven odds. Sure, a lot of non-Stu's have such a character arc as well, but usually that goes ahnd in ahnd with a lot of character development, sacrifices on their part and other devices that justify it.
And at least in the anime Kirito's "flaws" hardly hinder his progress.He sure helps out a lot of people despite being "anti-social", for example. Even his arrogance, the most prominent flaw, is never really portrayed as a weakness on the meta level because there is ALWAYS someone who helps him out by suprise healing/reviving him/other random plot devices. The intention is obvious: Kirito's flaw should not be shown. After all, he is a blank slate for self-insertion and both the author and the staff do not want the pitiful creatures who want to be in Kirito's shoes feel uneasy.

NidhoeggrJan 9, 2013 2:05 PM

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jan 9, 2013 2:04 PM

#58

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Nidhoeggr said:

ssjokg said:

1.Gary Stu is a FLAWLESS character and ALL the characters in SAO,especially Kirito, have flaws.If you give him the Gary Stu label because he was in the top of both games while ignoring his mistakes,trauma, overconfidence then ok.Every char in every anime is a Gary Stu if we do that.

You do know that Gary Stu's can have weaknesses on the story level, right? All that matters is that the weaknesses they have are only an excuse, as they do not matter in the story at all. A common example for a typical Mary/Gary Stu weakness would be the typical "Oh, I'm so clumsy!" said character proclaims, but which is never utilized in a story. And at least in the anime Kirito's flaws hardly hinder his progress.He sure helps out a lot of people despite being "anti-social", for example.

Sachi's death didnt matter at all right?That he was hopeless against Sugou AND the guardian statues also didnt matter right?The fact that he needs DEMs to win doesnt say anything about him not being a Gary Stu?

Of course we can ignore those for the sake of argument.

Your Edit:You really want to prove that SAO is shit dont you.

Jan 9, 2013 2:08 PM

#59

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ssjokg said:
Sachi's death didnt matter at all right?That he was hopeless against Sugou AND the guardian statues also didnt matter right?The fact that he needs DEMs to win doesnt say anything about him not being a Gary Stu?

Of course we can ignore those for the sake of argument.

Your Edit:You really want to prove that SAO is shit dont you.

LOL @ Sachi's death. Do you know what Kirito should've learned from that? That his overconfidence and miscommunication, his unwarranted sense of adventure in dire situations caused people to die! And what do you think he did in ALO, where he should've just rushed through the game? He goofed around! Hell, even fucking Yui had to remind him not to marvel at the game and to rescue his girlfriend instead of following his childish gamer instincts. Sachi's death as character development was a fucking farce.
We've gone over this for fucking months by now. If you still don't see how at least the anime portrays Kirito in such a way then I honestly doubt you are not a fanboy.

I don't really need to prove it is a failed adaption (and series, but that is not the point here), the series itself does it already.

NidhoeggrJan 9, 2013 2:14 PM

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jan 9, 2013 2:14 PM

#60

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Nidhoeggr said:

ssjokg said:
Sachi's death didnt matter at all right?That he was hopeless against Sugou AND the guardian statues also didnt matter right?The fact that he needs DEMs to win doesnt say anything about him not being a Gary Stu?

Of course we can ignore those for the sake of argument.

Your Edit:You really want to prove that SAO is shit dont you.

LOL @ Sachi's death. Do you know what Kirito should've learned from that: That his overconfidence and miscommunication, his unwarranted sense of adventure in dire situations caused people to die? And what do you think he did in ALO, where he should've just rushed through the game? He goofed around! Hell, even fucking Yui had to remind him not to marvel at the game and to rescue his girlfriend instead of following his childish gamer instincts. Sachi's character development was a fucking farce.

Doesnt that prove that he isnt perfect?Didnt that slow him down at all?

Of course he had benefits for that and even then that showed that he DID need them to achieve his goal.

SAchi's development=/=Kirito's development.And he had a week to save Asuna who wasnt going to die.He lost 1 hour max.And lets forget how many people he helped after her death.

ssjokgJan 9, 2013 2:20 PM

Jan 9, 2013 2:18 PM

#61

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Nidhoeggr said:

We've gone over this for fucking months by now. If you still don't see how at least the anime portrays Kirito in such a way then I honestly doubt you are not a fanboy.

I don't really need to prove it is a failed adaption (and series, but that is not the point here), the series itself does it already.

You hate SAO to the core.You pick things to "analyze" that dont matter/arent there like above.
If I am a fanboy then you arent any different from me.You are just the other side.

Yet you try to show faults that arent there just to make it even worse.

And since we have being saying this since summer and since none of us has changed his opinion why did you care to reply to my post.
I mean it is futile, why even bother?

Jan 9, 2013 2:19 PM

#62

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ssjokg said:

Nidhoeggr said:

ssjokg said:
Sachi's death didnt matter at all right?That he was hopeless against Sugou AND the guardian statues also didnt matter right?The fact that he needs DEMs to win doesnt say anything about him not being a Gary Stu?

Of course we can ignore those for the sake of argument.

Your Edit:You really want to prove that SAO is shit dont you.

LOL @ Sachi's death. Do you know what Kirito should've learned from that: That his overconfidence and miscommunication, his unwarranted sense of adventure in dire situations caused people to die? And what do you think he did in ALO, where he should've just rushed through the game? He goofed around! Hell, even fucking Yui had to remind him not to marvel at the game and to rescue his girlfriend instead of following his childish gamer instincts. Sachi's character development was a fucking farce.

Doesnt that prove that he isnt perfect?Didnt that slow him down at all?

Of course he had benefits for that and even then that showed that he DID need them to achieve his goal.

SAchi's development=/=Kirito's development.And he had a week to save Asuna who wasnt going to die.He lost 1 hour max.And lets forget how he helped people after her death.

1. It proved that Kirito doesn't learn, that supposed character devlopment is a farce and not really there.
2. The shown flaws hardly mattered because the writer didn't want really to portray it as a flaw. Despite his fooling around, despite his lack of communication, despite ignoring obvious better methods he gets away with everything when he - as you pointed out - should not! Kirito's should've died and not be revived because of the mentioned flaws. He should've been too late and he should have suffered REAL drawbacks. But he did not. Why? Because the author decided that he must get away with it as he is unfailable despite failing. Kirito can not die even if you kill him. Don't you realize how overblown and pathetic that is? That "thing" is not a character, at all. That is just wish-fulfillment.
Luffy can get his ass kicked and loose his crew, Gon can suffer mayor drawbacks from using a certain technique; hell, even fucking "Ninja Jesus" Naruto is unable to save some of his friends despite learning from some of his mistakes. Only Kirito is still the good old, overpowered and perfect being.

ssjokg said:

And since we have being saying this since summer and since none of us has changed his opinion why did you care to reply to my post.
I mean it is futile, why even bother?

Other people read our posts as well.

And they end up reading the same thing over and over again.

Jan 9, 2013 2:33 PM

#64

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Lets say that Kirito and the rest(as chars) are as good as Luffy and crew.The same for the story.If you want to compare SAO with OP, compare it at least with the first arcs of OP, where Luffy didnt lose anyone and didnt suffer a miserable defeat.Same with Naruto.

I would like to say that even if we exclude Sachi,two of Kirito's friends

Of course we can ignore them as plot devices and/or cheap methods to make Kirito angry,more powerful etc

Jan 9, 2013 2:36 PM

#65

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ssjokg said:
Lets say that Kirito and the rest(as chars) are as good as Luffy and crew.The same for the story.If you want to compare SAO with OP, compare it at least with the first arcs of OP, where Luffy didnt lose anyone and didnt suffer a miserable defeat.Same with Naruto.

I would like to say that even if we exclude Sachi,two of Kirito's friends

Of course we can ignore them as plot devices and/or cheap methods to make Kirito angry,more powerful etc

Well, I only read one volume and watched the anime from SAO so I wouldn't know those facts. Still, even in the first arcs in east Blue Luffy idiocy nearly got him drowned several times, was the cause for massive wounds in at leats two arcs (especially Arlong), allowed villians to move along their plans, etc. Of course they succeeded in the end (it is a Shounen, after all), but those were considerable drawbacks that FELT like drawbacks.
There was never any sense of failure coming from the entire ALO arc. Even the SAO alcked suspension, the author uses these plot devices in too obvious ways if you ask me.

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jan 9, 2013 2:53 PM

#66

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Nidhoeggr said:

ssjokg said:
Lets say that Kirito and the rest(as chars) are as good as Luffy and crew.The same for the story.If you want to compare SAO with OP, compare it at least with the first arcs of OP, where Luffy didnt lose anyone and didnt suffer a miserable defeat.Same with Naruto.

I would like to say that even if we exclude Sachi,two of Kirito's friends

Of course we can ignore them as plot devices and/or cheap methods to make Kirito angry,more powerful etc

Well, I only read one volume and watched the anime from SAO so I wouldn't know those facts. Still, even in the first arcs in east Blue Luffy idiocy nearly got him drowned several times, was the cause for massive wounds in at leats two arcs (especially Arlong), allowed villians to move along their plans, etc. Of course they succeeded in the end (it is a Shounen, after all), but those were considerable drawbacks that FELT like drawbacks.
There was never any sense of failure coming from the entire ALO arc. Even the SAO alcked suspension, the author uses these plot devices in too obvious ways if you ask me.

Well then it is just that unlike you,I feel that Kirito does encounter obstacles sometimes.As big as Luffy's?No.Naruto's?No.Ichigo gets so much help from the plot that needs another Kirito vs Ichigo thread so forget him...
And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO)as a sign that the MC has failed.
Of course that is a difference in what we call a failure.

As for SAO in general I know that Kirito WILL overcome all his obstacles.What I care is how.It may disappoint me or it may not.But as I have said before I prefer it when the MC is overpowered(even from the beginning)and defeats his enemies than seeing him get stronger by the number of battles he had some hours ago and by that I mean Ichigo-like chars.

Jan 9, 2013 5:37 PM

#67

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ssjokg said:

Well then it is just that unlike you,I feel that Kirito does encounter obstacles sometimes.As big as Luffy's?No.Naruto's?No.Ichigo gets so much help from the plot that needs another Kirito vs Ichigo thread so forget him...
And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO) as a sign that the MC has failed.
Of course that is a difference in what we call a failure.
What I care is how.It may disappoint me or it may not.

But that was always one of my biggest points, the execution is bad because it is way too obvious. The deus ex machina were blatant, the non-existant character development was blatant - the whole show's staff clearly seemed to not give a single fuck about this anime. That's what's so atrocious about this show.

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jan 9, 2013 6:04 PM

#68

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ssjokg said:

And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO)as a sign that the MC has failed.

Eh, for me, that was one of the reasons why i liked GGO so much more. They actually beat the villain without resorting to that.

Jan 9, 2013 6:09 PM

#69

Tachii

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Nidhoeggr said:

ssjokg said:

Well then it is just that unlike you,I feel that Kirito does encounter obstacles sometimes.As big as Luffy's?No.Naruto's?No.Ichigo gets so much help from the plot that needs another Kirito vs Ichigo thread so forget him...
And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO) as a sign that the MC has failed.
Of course that is a difference in what we call a failure.
What I care is how.It may disappoint me or it may not.

But that was always one of my biggest points, the execution is bad because it is way too obvious. The deus ex machina were blatant, the non-existant character development was blatant - the whole show's staff clearly seemed to not give a single fuck about this anime. That's what's so atrocious about this show.

I'm pretty sure people mentioned that girl who died to have influenced Kirito in other threads already and probably to you already. I really don't see why that's not considered as character development. But I really don't want to beat on a dead horse, if you feel he had no character development, fine. Just don't try to push this opinion on others by saying stuff like "clearly" not caring.

Shamelessly inserting my reviews. |

Jan 9, 2013 6:21 PM

#70

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Tachii said:

Nidhoeggr said:

ssjokg said:

Well then it is just that unlike you,I feel that Kirito does encounter obstacles sometimes.As big as Luffy's?No.Naruto's?No.Ichigo gets so much help from the plot that needs another Kirito vs Ichigo thread so forget him...
And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO) as a sign that the MC has failed.
Of course that is a difference in what we call a failure.
What I care is how.It may disappoint me or it may not.

But that was always one of my biggest points, the execution is bad because it is way too obvious. The deus ex machina were blatant, the non-existant character development was blatant - the whole show's staff clearly seemed to not give a single fuck about this anime. That's what's so atrocious about this show.

I'm pretty sure people mentioned that girl who died to have influenced Kirito in other threads already and probably to you already. I really don't see why that's not considered as character development. But I really don't want to beat on a dead horse, if you feel he had no character development, fine. Just don't try to push this opinion on others by saying stuff like "clearly" not caring.

Let's agree to disagree then.

Steel Ball Run anime when?

Jan 9, 2013 8:37 PM

#71

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RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO)as a sign that the MC has failed.

Eh, for me, that was one of the reasons why i liked GGO so much more. They actually beat the villain without resorting to that.

That is debatable because of the very,very last moment,but we read several times before that Amu can pick up signals or whatever from outside.

Jan 9, 2013 8:59 PM

#72

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ssjokg said:

RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO)as a sign that the MC has failed.

Eh, for me, that was one of the reasons why i liked GGO so much more. They actually beat the villain without resorting to that.

That is debatable because of the very,very last moment,but we read several times before that Amu can pick up signals or whatever from outside.

Jan 9, 2013 9:04 PM

#73

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RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO)as a sign that the MC has failed.

Eh, for me, that was one of the reasons why i liked GGO so much more. They actually beat the villain without resorting to that.

That is debatable because of the very,very last moment,but we read several times before that Amu can pick up signals or whatever from outside.

That would be worse than a DEM for me.At least a DEM can look cool.^ That thing...is beyond horrible.

Jan 9, 2013 9:11 PM

#74

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ssjokg said:

RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO)as a sign that the MC has failed.

Eh, for me, that was one of the reasons why i liked GGO so much more. They actually beat the villain without resorting to that.

That is debatable because of the very,very last moment,but we read several times before that Amu can pick up signals or whatever from outside.

That would be worse than a DEM for me.At least a DEM can look cool.^ That thing...is beyond horrible.

It would be a whole new tier of cheesy. And for me, would make Asuna more annoying in terms of yelling out the MCs name than Orihime during the Hueco Mundo arc.

Jan 9, 2013 9:16 PM

#75

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RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

And I see the need for a huge DEM(Asuna's love in SAO,Kayaba in ALO)as a sign that the MC has failed.

Eh, for me, that was one of the reasons why i liked GGO so much more. They actually beat the villain without resorting to that.

That is debatable because of the very,very last moment,but we read several times before that Amu can pick up signals or whatever from outside.

That would be worse than a DEM for me.At least a DEM can look cool.^ That thing...is beyond horrible.

It would be a whole new tier of cheesy. And for me, would make Asuna more annoying in terms of yelling out the MCs name than Orihime during the Hueco Mundo arc.

Well it is pretty much a given they will ruin it just because of Sinon.
Add the fanservice that will be at the same level as SAO(Sinon's avatar just asks for weird angles)
And will they even mention why Kirito can dodge bullets?

Jan 9, 2013 9:18 PM

#76

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ssjokg said:

It would be a whole new tier of cheesy. And for me, would make Asuna more annoying in terms of yelling out the MCs name than Orihime during the Hueco Mundo arc.

Well it is pretty much a given they will ruin it just because of Sinon.
Add the fanservice that will be at the same level as SAO(Sinon's avatar just asks for weird angles)
And will they even mention why Kirito can dodge bullets?

THis is my guess for an explanation, Kirito is just gonna go
"Umm yeah...something something" Unless, they make Sinon the go to person that explains mechanics when they show up (i think thats the case in the novel)

RockerXDJan 9, 2013 9:22 PM

Jan 9, 2013 9:29 PM

#77

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RockerXD said:

ssjokg said:

It would be a whole new tier of cheesy. And for me, would make Asuna more annoying in terms of yelling out the MCs name than Orihime during the Hueco Mundo arc.

Well it is pretty much a given they will ruin it just because of Sinon.
Add the fanservice that will be at the same level as SAO(Sinon's avatar just asks for weird angles)
And will they even mention why Kirito can dodge bullets?

THis is my guess for an explanation, Kirito is just gonna go
"Umm yeah...something something" Unless, they make Sinon the go to person that explains mechanics when they show up (i think thats the case in the novel)Kirito doesnt know shit about GGO so yeah it was her explaining while he was taking advantage of how similar the mechanics were to SAO,for obvious reasons(Seed for those that forgot).

Jan 9, 2013 9:41 PM

#78

onesnowyday_

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hmm...things are surprisingly even. I thought more people like Asuna...but this makes me happy. A lot of people were hating on Sugu when she was just an innocent girl in love :/

Jan 9, 2013 11:43 PM

#79

animetyphoon88

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Takei_Hisa said:
hmm...things are surprisingly even. I thought more people like Asuna...but this makes me happy. A lot of people were hating on Sugu when she was just an innocent girl in love :/

an innocent girl in love....with her cousin....who is in love with someone else

Jan 9, 2013 11:45 PM

#80