Bleach Chapter 474 Discussion

Monad said:


Kubo is the one who drew Ukitake in the shadows and all those surprised faces like the sky fell on their heads despite hearing stupid trivial things that shouldn't bother them at all.
It is Kubo that is bullshiting us. Trying to built suspense out of nothing and probably even more ridiculous take it back by having Ichigo saying shit like "I don't care" in the next chapter.
If you don't care then what where all those "Oh! my fucking God!!!" faces and words about who he should be fighting? Oh! yeah they where just Kubo trolling us. And if it's not a troll and that little thing is really so shocking to him then is just stupid plot.
So ether we have a stupid story with a character going crazy over something it shouldn't bother him much or we have a troll mangaka that likes to create false suspense and bullshit simply so he can have some pretentious dialogs and supposed cliffhangers.

icegenie said:
1. who said this was the 'big revelation'? Definitely not Kubo. Please do not assume things by yourselves and then get disappointed by the lack of expectations and then blame someone else.

2. The badge is not a fucking GPS for god's sake. There is a difference between a monitoring device and a GPS. Go google it for yourselves.

3. Again, alll the hate based on ONE chapter. Werent you taught not to jump into conclusions when you were young?

We as audience see a clearer picture than the characters in the story. We have the luxury to flip back past chapters and look at everyone's perspective. So please think before saying things like 'why is everyone looking so shocked when everything is so obvious?!?' Ishida doesn't know much about ukitake. Nor is he making things too complicated. These are questions that most readers will ask. And this means that the answers to these questions will be provided later. Ichigo din think much about the badge either. He doesn't think too much of his role as a substitute Shinigami. All he wants to do is to protect his friends and family.

Plus him being 'surprised' doesn't mean that he doubts his friends. He is most probably 'surprised' because he would never think that he would hear such words (regarding his friends) being uttered.

____

Also, as I mentioned earlier, Ichigo hates it when people badmouth about his friends. Probably the sole reason that caused him to go into rage mode. I wouldn't believe that he let what Ginjo say get in his head because he knows that there are things that he doesn't want to tell even the people he trust and of cos the same people will have things that they feel is better not to tell him (yet). Rmb the conversations Ichigo and Rukia had before fighting Fisher, and also Ichigo and his dad while fighting Aizen...

Fai said:
- Ukitake having sokyoku-destroying seals from unknown noble family - aka something Captains WOULD NOT have.
- Ukitake recognizing Ichigo's reiatsu.(byakyuya also did and now seems to hold Ichigo in quite high regard, but Ukitake handed Ichigo the badge after that)
- his dialogue with Aizen when Aizen was leaving.
- Kaien's utter reluctance and rejection of ukitake's offer to be his VC.
- Kaien's convenient death and Shiba clan's supposed possible connection to Kurosaki family.
- Ukitake handling Ichigo a badge saying some bullshit and NO ONE else recognising it.
- Ishida getting a VERY bad vibe about the badge.
- Chad noting that badge looks "ominous".
- His anouncement that he will be taking Captain-Commander's place for now(during arrancar arc) and his "death glare" when hitsugaya asks why him.
- His seeming disappointment that Captain Commander won't leave his position (and his two subordinates even noticed that).
- Rukia's first mission to real world, memories of which, SOMEHOW GOT ERASED FROM HER HEAD.
- His dialogue with shunsui during the top espada fight in fake karakura town.
- name of his sword,Sōgyo no Kotowari , bassically meaning, truth of pisces, aka twin/dual fishes.
- Wonderweiss. Is said to be attracted to pure things and despise the "unclean things". What he did the moment he got to the scene? Skewered Ukitake.

Monad said:


Kubo is the one who drew Ukitake in the shadows and all those surprised faces like the sky fell on their heads despite hearing stupid trivial things that shouldn't bother them at all.
It is Kubo that is bullshiting us. Trying to built suspense out of nothing and probably even more ridiculous take it back by having Ichigo saying shit like "I don't care" in the next chapter.
If you don't care then what where all those "Oh! my fucking God!!!" faces and words about who he should be fighting? Oh! yeah they where just Kubo trolling us. And if it's not a troll and that little thing is really so shocking to him then is just stupid plot.
So ether we have a stupid story with a character going crazy over something it shouldn't bother him much or we have a troll mangaka that likes to create false suspense and bullshit simply so he can have some pretentious dialogs and supposed cliffhangers.

reaght said:

Uhm why are you criticising Kubo so badly... You are really not making any sense. I have to agree that the espada's were a big letdown for me, and the power ups of Aizen and Ichigo were pretty rediculous. But the story elements that are now being used are interesting again.

You can choose not to like the story, which is okay.... But to hate on the way Kubo writes his story and saying all kinds of b*llsh*t is just unneccesary.

JUST DONT READ HIS STORIES IF YOU DONT LIKE IT!! It's as simple as that.

For me I clearly missed out on stuff because I did not read the manga until the war. The Ukitaki hints that were layed down were not so apparent in the anime. Or does anybody have some screenshots like the screenshots of the manga posted here, but then animewise? Which show the same hints?

Shyster said:
Wait is Ukitake even doing anything evil?

icegenie said:
1. who said this was the 'big revelation'? Definitely not Kubo. Please do not assume things by yourselves and then get disappointed by the lack of expectations and then blame someone else.

2. The badge is not a fucking GPS for god's sake. There is a difference between a monitoring device and a GPS. Go google it for yourselves.

3. Again, alll the hate based on ONE chapter. Werent you taught not to jump into conclusions when you were young?

icegenie said:
We as audience see a clearer picture than the characters in the story. We have the luxury to flip back past chapters and look at everyone's perspective. So please think before saying things like 'why is everyone looking so shocked when everything is so obvious?!?

icegenie said:
This is only 1 chapter. It is not the 'big revelation' that Kubo promised. Nor is it an overeaction on the Ichigo's and Ishida's part. It is just the start/unveiling of a whole new part of the big picture. If you understand this then you'll realize that your raving was uncalled for.

reaght said:
Uhm why are you criticising Kubo so badly... You are really not making any sense. I have to agree that the espada's were a big letdown for me, and the power ups of Aizen and Ichigo were pretty rediculous. But the story elements that are now being used are interesting again.

You can choose not to like the story, which is okay.... But to hate on the way Kubo writes his story and saying all kinds of b*llsh*t is just unneccesary.

JUST DONT READ HIS STORIES IF YOU DONT LIKE IT!! It's as simple as that.

Arashi89 said:
blah blah

Arashi89 said:
SS isn't the Big Brother

Arashi89 said:
blah blah

Arashi89 said:
Why are you so sure about that?! Do you have a time machine? Did you see into the future this big revelation that explains the whole picture?

Arashi89 said:
In short, I do it because I can, and you don't have any good reason to stop me.

And why are you lot insisting so much on this point? Is it because we are telling the truth, that Kubo is a worthless writer, and you're too sheltered to accept the fact that sometimes he makes mistakes?

Monad said:


No, the guy did nothing wrong really, just a lot of bullshiting from Kubo and Fai's crazy scenarios.

P.S = Fai you are full of it. Both the pics from the manga you posted have nothing with your comments about them. Ukitake has no death glare there and the one with Aizen has no foreshadowing of the thing you say ether. It's a pretty straightforward dialog. Ukitake simply comments that Aizen felt from grace in his quest for new highs of power. Nothing strange about it. You just took ordinary pages and made theories around them. If you are so desperate to make Kubo's stories seem more deep and complex from what they are then give him a call, maybe he needs a storyteller seeing as he ain't doing very good by himself.

- Kaien's utter reluctance and rejection of ukitake's offer to be his VC.
- Kaien's convenient death and Shiba clan's supposed possible connection to Kurosaki family.
- Rukia's first mission to real world, memories of which, SOMEHOW GOT ERASED FROM HER HEAD.
- Wonderweiss. Is said to be attracted to pure things and despise the "unclean things". What he did the moment he got to the scene? Skewered Ukitake.

lancier57 said:
wanna see ichigo go vigilante!!! go to the dark side!!! be overlord! supreme ruler or watevr!!!

icegenie said:
1. Yes, Kubo drew the chapter. But did he say ANYWHERE that this was The Big Revelation? No one. Whoever that is disappointed and raving are the ones who think "this is it". That includes you and all the other haters. If bringing the 'weak' character Ukitake into the plot doesnt change the big picture then I dont know what does. Maybe if Ichigo was actually a SS experiment huh?

Fai said:
Also, according to Kubo's more recent interviews, there's one chapter coming up soon in this arc that ill completely change everyone's perception of what is going on as, quoting kubo, it made the publishers drop their jaws to the floor from shock.

icegenie said:
2. So SS isnt monitoring Ichigo's reiatsu and controlling it, then who is? And FYI, GPS doesnt measure ANYTHING. It TRACKS.

icegenie said:
3. The point is jumping into conclusions. You did not deny that. Good for you.

icegenie said:
No relation whatsoever to my point. "We as audience see a clearer picture than the characters in the story. We have the luxury to flip back past chapters and look at everyone's perspective." And FYI again, I am not a 'boy'.

icegenie said:
"It is just the start/unveiling of a whole new part of the big picture."
More will be explained in the following chapters. Duh. Back to point 1. If bringing the 'weak' character Ukitake into the plot doesnt change the big picture then I dont know what does.

icegenie said:
Same for us. We can say whatever we want. And you can say whatever you want. You can TROLL for as long as you like because you KNOW you are trolling. i.e. You KNOW that you are just making a fool out of yourselves. (go ahead, I know you will deny it.) Of cos, Im not like reaght. Please go ahead and read Bleach for all you want and hate it for all you want as everytime Bleach is read, its popularity goes higher. Thank you very much.

icegenie said:
Lastly, obviously you do not know much about Kubo. It's okay that you come here and start raving how bad was the chapter and how much Bleach sucks. It just shows how ignorant you are about what you're reading. You can not like what we are predicting. Sure, everyone has different opinions about how the story will turn out. Go ahead and disagree.

icegenie said:
'Mistakes' ? what 'mistakes' ? If you are talking about loopholes, it's just silly to discuss this because the story is not over. But I know you love to jump into conclusions. Thats fine I guess. You can be a better writer than 'worthless' Kubo and your manga will sell more than 72 million in Japan and be one of top in U.S. too. Good for you.

icegenie said:
Oh, feel free to deny alllll my points. It's okay. I know you will be in denial.

icegenie said:
And also, a good writer will not suddenly drop a spotlight on a 'weak' character without giving any hints. That then is what I call a lousy writer who has no planning and no more inspiration.

Maddo_scientisto said:

I also think that some of Fai's point are wrong but you can't just brush every point he made aside on the basis that some of them were wrong.

Particuliary these:


+ the fact that Ukitake did lied to Ichigo.

We aren't saying that Ukitake is the mother of evil and a big asshole. We are not saying that he'll pull a big keikaku doori and reveal himself as a vilain. We are just saying that there's some shady business surrounding him since the start of the manga.
It isn't a black and white situation and with the system SS is based from something a human that live in the real world would consider evil could but justice in SS, moral and rules changes depending on the society.

Arashi89 said:

Kubo himself said that. A few weeks ago, in the MAL Forum Discussion Thread about Chapter 462 of Bleach, Fai said, and here I quote his exact words from Post #5:



And then this chapter happened. And it turned out to be what it is. And there's only one chapter with the big twist. Not two, not three, not many, just one.

See? This is a fact. It's different from a fantasy because it has actual basis in reality.

hungry_bunny said:
ALL of those points are circumstantial at best, but for some reason they've almost been presented here as evidence. Nothing is ever that certain in Bleach.

-Kaien explained his reluctance as him not feeling worthy of the title "since there are many people more worthy of a promotion like that than me".
-Kaien would have gone after that Hollow in any case, Ukitake did try to stop him at first but... that Hollow had killed Kaien's wife and so he was fighting for his honor.
-Who said Ukitake was the one that erased her memories, could have been Aizen... IF anything was erased.
-Wonderweiss didn't like Gin either when he came to talk to Tousen, or Urahara. Wonderweiss had a weird definition of what's "pure".

Maybe I'm being to one-sided, I've always argued for the shinigami being good guys after all... the question is, if any of those first points were given by someone who was objective or someone who only looked at the opposite angle of things, shoe-horning them into the fit of a theory.

I believe that the thing being tested by Ginjo isn't only Ichigo's trust in SS, the reader's trust is being tested as well, perhaps it's a way to make it easier to relate to the doubts that could be growing within Ichigo.

hungry_bunny said:
I believe that the thing being tested by Ginjo isn't only Ichigo's trust in SS, the reader's trust is being tested as well, perhaps it's a way to make it easier to relate to the doubts that could be growing within Ichigo.

Arashi89 said:

Again, why you're so sure that "It is just the start/unveiling of a whole new part of the big picture"? You're not in Kubo's head and you have no idea how the next chapter will develop. For all we know, it may be only action without talking.

Arashi89 said:
Very good, you've just proven my point. The badge is just a tracker and not some ominous device that controls him. Compared to the crimes SS has committed, this is irrilevant.

Arashi89 said:
And it's funny that you pretend to accept different opinons when this whole paragraph was just you sorely dismissing mine without any basis.

Mindhaxor said:
I still think Urahara plays a role here that has not been revealed yet, be it good or evil.

Maddo_scientisto said:


I also think that some of Fai's point are wrong but you can't just brush every point he made aside on the basis that some of them were wrong.

Maddo_scientisto said:
'you are too arrogant' line

tamachana said:
And for the SS side, i guess i see why it's like that. Since he's human and all, he probably doesn't know how to "control" His powers and supress it like a proper shinigami. So it suppresses it. If they didn't supress it, they'd have a situation like aizen, where if anyone approached them they would die from the seer amount of power he has;

Maddo_scientisto said:

-A VC seat is not something people refuse yet he didn't want to be Ukitake's VC. Now if we are talking about circunstance about why he would refuse the post we should not discard the possibility of him not refusing a VC seat but instead refusing being directly under Ukitake. Why would he do that? Possibly because he isn't as nice as he makes himself look.

-True and that's why I say he is not evil. He balanced the scale and judged that it would be convenient for him and that Kaien would get what he want at the same time, either one of these factor being false he would probably have saved him.
A captain and especially a senior captain should have been able to save him if he really wanted to, sick or not, we saw much weaker shinigami being in a more dire state that just having an illness that displayed much more willpower.

-Ukitake is the one that sent Rukia to the real world. It's not impossible for Aizen to have erased her memory but whatfor? It wouldn't benifit Aizen's plan while in return we do not know what Ukitake is up to.
If we consider the Ukitake vs Aizen discussion it is possible to see a blur line where Ukitake could have been working with Aizen prior to him rebelling against SS, probably Aizen under Ukitake thus the 'you are too arrogant' line

-Gin was one of the most impure character in bleach. He constantly tricked people for the sakes of revenge so obviously WW didn't liked him.
Tousen on the other hand was fighting the sake of his justice, always beleiving he was right and that he was walking the right path toward peace. Tousen was a much more pure character than Gin.

Remember who was the 'nicest captain' before? It was Aizen.
People labelling Ukitake as the big heart guy is as streching it as saying that he's the incarnation of evil. Of course he'll be nice as long as things goes his way.

hungry_bunny said:
WW went after Ukitake, Urahara, the Captain-Commander and the Vizards.

Zell182 said:
Well that was foreshadowed for a long time but I didn't expect him to say Ukitake was behind it. I figured it would've been Isshin.

Fai said:

Obviously. This has been quite obvious ever since Aizen/urahara dialogue when Aizen was being sealed. Urahara knows a lot about SS and what is behind SS.

he also is involved with whatever was up with Isshin in the past, the whole Shiba noble house fallout that is still yet to be explained fully, hogyoku creation(for which the reason has yet to be explained too) and so on.

And he knows what ginjou is in progress of telling Ichigo too...

Urahara is one of shadiest characters and he obviously knows stuff

hungry_bunny said:
And last but not least, Hitsugaya was interrupted by Byakuya just after they arrived to confront Ginjo... he might have told Ichigo the truth about the substitute system and why it was created for Ginjo. But it would have been unwise to unbalance him just before a fight. Yeah, they did lie to him, but they could have had a good reason for it, based on experience.

Fai said:


isshin still has a connection.

- He knows Ginjou.
- he knows what Ginjou wants to tell.
- Ginjou baited Ichigo with info about Isshin and while he said it was a red herring, I bet its important.
- This is supposedly (or leads to) isshin past arc.

Fai said:
Also someone is forgetting something: Ginjou said that there was already a person with similar kind of fullbring as Ichigo before :)

kimchuy said:

Question: What the heck are "Vizards"??? *puzzled*
--- I thought it was Visored (Kanji - ヴァイザード, Romanji - vaizādo).

Peralisc said:
I think there was more to what he wanted to tell or should have told even if he continued revealing the "true story".
See Ishida having those deep thoughts about the whole situation 10 chapters ago (Chapter 464). Saying what he said this last chapter "the worst would be if neither was the truth".
Then he says "i shouldnt tell ichigo that ------". But then this last chapter he seems to want to talk, but Ichigo tells him off as if he is sensing what bad news he is about to reveal!
*pic*

hungry_bunny said:
And Wonderweiss was pure... pure as a puppy that wanted to protect his master from anything harmful. His definition of "unpure" was probably anything that was clever enough to threaten his master Aizen. I will not argue the fact that Ukitake is one of the most intelligent captains in SS, but that does not make him a cold and deceitful person. Hueco Mundo was full of two-faced monsters... instead, WW went after Ukitake, Urahara, the Captain-Commander and the Vizards.

Fai said:
For starters there are few problems with the whole badge thing:
1) they did not tell him. Captains get told about limiters. If it was nothing suspicious or malevolent, why not just outright say "hey, this thingy here fixes your reiatsu leak problems". They did not. This leads to 2)
2)From the way Ginjou words it. SS does not want to just "supress" ichigo. they want to control him as weapon.Thanks to badge they will always find him and could off him if he revolts. SS decides Ichigo should wipe out some nu-quincy race? Ichigo would have to do it or die, for example.
3) it reeks of Big Brother. The badge system is bassically the Patriot Act:SS Version - The extreme edition. Ichigo finds out something bad about SS(ala what Aizen and Urahara found out) and Ichigo gets offed, alongside with his family possibly.

fishergirl16 said:
Ukitake?! Really? SO RANDOM. I hate when these things happen. Random conclusions annoy me so much.
A story is supposed to have some foreshadowing, at least when it's not Bobobobo!

Hate this.
So we find this so late in the story even when we already know that Soul Society fully and utterly trusts Ichigo so much that they allowed him to save them so many times. And so it doesn't even make a big deal even if it was true
Whatever. I hope this gets more reasonable later on and what Ginjo just said was crap. Ichigo better not beLIEve (liked that word play) what he said.

Z-flame said:

I agree on this, I don't believe that Ginjo told him the all truth.

ChronosXIII said:
It's a GPS, big whoop.

Ukitake, the evil mastermind!

Uhh, no. Don't really see that happening.