Are we gonna ignore the double stupidity in levi vs zeke in the forest??

troilus_05s said:
1) In S3 part 2, Levi did not have to kill his comrades. They sacrificed themselves. Here, he has to kill them himself.
2) Levi has lost everyone. I don't think he was afraid of dying. He attached a thunderspear to Zeke so that IF Zeke tried to do anything, the thunderspear would blow up ensuring that Zeke was killed. Levi may die too. But, at least he will die ensuring that Zeke died too and that Eren and Zeke's plan did not succeed. However, he did not expect Zeke to really commit suicide. He thought that a death threat was enough to keep Zeke quiet.

no matter how you think about it you'll always find a plot hole:

AkeldamaTemere said:
and even if he transforms you can simply take him down again as you did before.

Catalano said:
1. Zeke is incompetent in military tactics, it was established back in s3p2, he's just no good
2. I think you're referring to Levi immobilizing Zeke with the spear, yeah, it's stupid, when I saw it, in my mind I was "oh, but what if Zeke will blow it up?" I don't think he ran out of blades.

Still, the forest fight was ok, Levi was just too good and Zeke is not a good soldier, the beast titan is very weak

Fax001s said:

No because he would be blown up by the transformation just like the thunder spear, except Zeke would be 100% alive. Levi simply took too many precautions.

Fax001s said:

No because he would be blown up by the transformation just like the thunder spear, except Zeke would be 100% alive. Levi simply took too many precautions.

Kaito10 said:
1. Zeke's plan was really good. The only chance he'd have against Levi was doing this. His main goal is to unite with Eren, and this was the only way he could have gotten rid of Levi. He didn't have 4 years to think about this, since he couldn't have known they'd take him to the forest and keep him there separately, so coming up with this idea was the by far best thing he could do.
2. Regarding the thunderspear. Levi's main goal at this point is to get Zeke to be eaten by someone else. They are far away from everyone else, so he has to somehow transport Zeke. How is he going to do that without risking for Zeke to transform at some point when enough time has passed. Doing the thing with the thunderspear to make Zeke fear he might die if he even moves a little bit was the smartest thing to do at this point.
It's not that much of a "plot hole" if you put a little thought into it, instead of trying to find flaws everywhere.

hamza121419 said:
As the title says, are we just gonna ignore the fight between levi and zeke was executed in a stupid way that goes against the way the characters were established? I know there will be a lot of people coming up with numerous reasons to justify the stupidity made in this last fight, but no matter how you think about it you'll always find a plot hole:

1) zeke's stupidity:
I don't know how a smart character like zeke wouldn't come up with a plan B in case levi kills his comarades and pursues him. This is complete shit writing knowing that zeke has been planning for this for 4 years and he didn't even consider how to face the biggest threat of his plan which is levi. From zeke's pov levi did sacrifice his comarades back in s3 p2 for him to be able to take him by surprise, what in the world made him assume he won't kill his comarades? Which info he has about levi that telles him he won't sacrifice them? No info. And even if you think he won't kill them, as a strategist you have to take in consideration every possibility and have a potential plan in case it happens. This is out of zeke's character and should never have happened.

2) levi's stupidity:
Now about levi attaching zeke to the thunder spear, i know people came up with several reasons for why he did it but it doesn't change the fact that is a stupid plan that levi should never came up with knowing he is someone who doesn't make a choice unless he think about it a lot and makes sur he won't regret it. You can say he was stressed and exhausted this does not change anything as the plan be came up with is completely stupid even a tired person wouldn't go with it if he is a little bit smart, and levi isn't a dumb person, he isn't very smart but he is smart enough to make good choices even in bad situations, this is how his whole character is built up. He is a soldier who experienced everything thing in battlefield, against titans and humains in every possible situation, he has lost every friend and comarade and that forged him as a strong person. He is used to battle fatigue and stress. And for those who by chance forgot about s3 pe let me remind you that the stress levi was in at that time is arguably higher than this time, at least they are comparable. At that time the situation was more hopeless than this one, levi was exhausted after fighting all the titans, after sacrificing his comarades and after being consumed with the guilt of not taking down zeke, he was physically exhausted to the extent he didn't have any energy left to put a resistance to mikassa and psychologically tired as we are talking about the man he cared about the most, the guilt of sacrificing his friends for nothing.... Yet he did overcome all this and came up with a "good" choice after thinking about the matter and dealing with his emotions, some might not agree he made the best choice, but we at least can agree it wasn't stupid, that it was done after a reflection and big battle inside him. But what about now? What happened to all this build up in his character if you are gonna just butcher a character like this.
His choice is dumb and doesnt fit his character at all, why are you giving your enemy a chance to take you down while you have the upper
Hand on him, you can just keep on slicing his limbs and prevent him from gransforming, and even if he transforms you can simply take him down again as you did before. Aslo he is a shifter and has high chances to survive the explosion, not to mention that levi now knows zeke was lying about his powers and that he might have another secret to survive an explosion.

This battle would have been amazing without this shit writing that ruined the whole thing, i missed the battle of shiganshina where characters were acting accordingly with their build up, where there were amazing plans playing out from both sides, where people could still make good choices in a desperate situation. Now this season all we have is people making wrong moves (zeke, eren, levi) or choosing between bad choives, having no plan for what's happening (hange, armin and company) i mean no one is ever making a good move since erwin died. This shows how the writing isn't that good because it's all forced upon the watcher. Things aren't going naturally but rather forced to go the way isayama wants even if they don't make sense.

This is what i thought about the later events of the series, i hope the responses won't be toxic and if any one feels offended with the criticism i made i'm sorry in advance.

cAbaddon said:
Holy fuck dude, Zeke is not and omniscient god with infinite resources in this situation, his plan with the wine was perfect and accommodated many situations, not that he knew exactly that Levi would take him to the forest in the first place.

In the case of Levi the same, he was alone transporting Zeke and Zeke transforming again in close proximity would have the same effect that the thunder spear, and in distance in open field without 3dmg the beast titan has complete advantage.

Blocky-producer said:


i was made pretty clear that you cant transform when you body is too focused on healing. he could have cut off his limp and arms.

Blocky-producer said:


i was made pretty clear that you cant transform when you body is too focused on healing. he could have cut off his limp and arms.

troilus_05s said:
1) In S3 part 2, Levi did not have to kill his comrades. They sacrificed themselves. Here, he has to kill them himself.
2) Levi has lost everyone. I don't think he was afraid of dying. He attached a thunderspear to Zeke so that IF Zeke tried to do anything, the thunderspear would blow up ensuring that Zeke was killed. Levi may die too. But, at least he will die ensuring that Zeke died too and that Eren and Zeke's plan did not succeed. However, he did not expect Zeke to really commit suicide. He thought that a death threat was enough to keep Zeke quiet.

Catalano said:
1. Zeke is incompetent in military tactics, it was established back in s3p2, he's just no good
2. I think you're referring to Levi immobilizing Zeke with the spear, yeah, it's stupid, when I saw it, in my mind I was "oh, but what if Zeke will blow it up?" I don't think he ran out of blades.

Still, the forest fight was ok, Levi was just too good and Zeke is not a good soldier, the beast titan is very weak

cAbaddon said:
Holy fuck dude, Zeke is not and omniscient god with infinite resources in this situation, his plan with the wine was perfect and accommodated many situations, not that he knew exactly that Levi would take him to the forest in the first place.

In the case of Levi the same, he was alone transporting Zeke and Zeke transforming again in close proximity would have the same effect that the thunder spear, and in distance in open field without 3dmg the beast titan has complete advantage.

hamza121419 said:
1) zeke's stupidity:
I don't know how a smart character like zeke wouldn't come up with a plan B in case levi kills his comarades and pursues him.

Yashvanth said:
Levi's foolishness:
1.levi could've spared one of his subordinates who got turned into titan and could've made him/her eat zeke.
2. He is already cutting zeke's leg to stop him from transforming so there is no need for the thunder spear.

Kaito10 said:
1. Zeke's plan was really good. The only chance he'd have against Levi was doing this. His main goal is to unite with Eren, and this was the only way he could have gotten rid of Levi. He didn't have 4 years to think about this, since he couldn't have known they'd take him to the forest and keep him there separately, so coming up with this idea was the by far best thing he could do.
2. Regarding the thunderspear. Levi's main goal at this point is to get Zeke to be eaten by someone else. They are far away from everyone else, so he has to somehow transport Zeke. How is he going to do that without risking for Zeke to transform at some point when enough time has passed. Doing the thing with the thunderspear to make Zeke fear he might die if he even moves a little bit was the smartest thing to do at this point.
It's not that much of a "plot hole" if you put a little thought into it, instead of trying to find flaws everywhere.

Xilver said:

Just gonna make sure you understand that the plan was to just hold Levi back for enough time, that's why Zeke didn't try to fight himself, but just ran, getting out of the forest was priority. What he didn't expect is for Levi to kill them SO fast that he even is able to find his trail and reach him before he gets out of the forest.

Yashvanth said:
Levi's foolishness:
1.levi could've spared one of his subordinates who got turned into titan and could've made him/her eat zeke.
2. He is already cutting zeke's leg to stop him from transforming so there is no need for the thunder spear.

hamza121419 said:
what he didn' t expect is the stupidity itself, from zeke's pov levi did sacrifice his friends to take him by surprise in s3 p2 and he is falling for the same trick again, levi killed his titans in s3 p2 very quickly and pursued him, zeke had enough info that showed what levi will do and decided to ignore that, no isayama decided to ignore that and gives this bullshit instead.

troilus_05s said:
1) In S3 part 2, Levi did not have to kill his comrades. They sacrificed themselves. Here, he has to kill them himself.
2) Levi has lost everyone. I don't think he was afraid of dying. He attached a thunderspear to Zeke so that IF Zeke tried to do anything, the thunderspear would blow up ensuring that Zeke was killed. Levi may die too. But, at least he will die ensuring that Zeke died too and that Eren and Zeke's plan did not succeed. However, he did not expect Zeke to really commit suicide. He thought that a death threat was enough to keep Zeke quiet.

Xilver said:

Yeah but it's not about just sacrificing friends, it's about the time it takes for him to overcome his inner turmoil, then actually managing to kill all of those super pure titans, and even after that managing to track him down, meaning find the trail, and catch up so fast that Zeke doesn't even come close to the exit. If Zeke managed to get out - that's it, Levi has no means to pursue him in open territory.
Like it's kind of questionable that Levi actually did manage to do that, how did he even find him?

Xilver said:

Yeah but it's not about just sacrificing friends, it's about the time it takes for him to overcome his inner turmoil, then actually managing to kill all of those super pure titans, and even after that managing to track him down, meaning find the trail, and catch up so fast that Zeke doesn't even come close to the exit. If Zeke managed to get out that's it, Levi has no means to pursue him in open territory.
Like it's kind of questionable that Levi actually did manage to do that, how did he even find him?

hamza121419 said:
he can simply find his trail because of the titans noises, their steps are making very loud sounds. But what you've written here applies also to s3 p2, but he did catch up to him very quickly after sending his friends to death charging zeke and after killing all the pure titans in a place where the 3d manœuvre gear isn't very useful, here in the forest it's easier to kill those titans. So your point isn't valid

Xilver said:

Depends on how far they are, Zeke started running instantly, when Levi was still second-guessing.
No, s3p2 isn't comparable, because in that situation while his friends were distracting Zeke, he used the titans that were JUST STANDING there, basically used them as trees to reach him. In this case all of the titans were attacking him, while Zeke was actively running away from him.
In s3 titans served as objects to HELP him reach Zeke, in this situations they were active obstacles.
In s3 Zeke was just standing there, in our situation he is running away full speed.

troilus_05s said:
Zeke did not change his direction but ran in a straight line.

Xilver said:

Now that would legit be stupid.

cAbaddon said:
omg guys why zeke is not an 9000iq unrealistic 5D asspuller like lelouch why are you defending this please agree with me!!!! is how the op sounds at this point.

Xilver said:

Depends on how far they are, Zeke started running instantly, when Levi was still second-guessing.
No, s3p2 isn't comparable, because in that situation while his friends were distracting Zeke, he used the titans that were JUST STANDING there, basically used them as trees to reach him. In this case all of the titans were attacking him, while Zeke was actively running away from him.
In s3 titans served as objects to HELP him reach Zeke, in this situations they were active obstacles.
In s3 Zeke was just standing there, in our situation he is running away full speed.

hamza121419 said:
i think your memory isn't that good because i was talking about killing the pure titans remaining after zeke ordered them to kill him, i mean the other half of titans and levi did kill them quickly and caught up to zeke who gave up on bertold and run away with peak helping him. It's the same thing as here, maybe even worse in s3 p2 because of the titans number and the space that doesn't help because there were no trees there. No matter how you think about it dude there is something wrong with what happened in this episode and this is a sign of bad battle writing.

Gilgameshuu said:

This makes the most sense.

hamza121419 said:
are you kidding dude, zeke's only chance was to do so? Are you trolling? What kind of drug do you take to believe this lie? He has 4 years to tbink of a plan to face levi even in one vs one and he sbould have thought of this because he will face levi no mattet what, levi is his biggest enemy but he didn't even think of a way to neutralize him. If he didn't have any other option as you said he shouldn't have executed his plan because that's suicide, you are getting to enemy territory and ther you have levi and you don't have a plan to counter him, this is straight up suicide. Zeke had several days in the forest to think only about how to get away from levi because the other points of his plan have already been thought of and in execution. He had plenty of time to come up with some thing other than assuming levi won't kill his comarades and that he will let him get away, this is stupid knowing the first encounter between the 2 in s3 p3.

About the thunder spear that was't needed he could have just went on slicing his limbs and he won't transform, why risk your life for something stupid, and levi isn't the kind of person to do so.

hamza121419 said:
are you kidding dude, zeke's only chance was to do so? Are you trolling? What kind of drug do you take to believe this lie? He has 4 years to tbink of a plan to face levi even in one vs one and he sbould have thought of this because he will face levi no mattet what, levi is his biggest enemy but he didn't even think of a way to neutralize him. If he didn't have any other option as you said he shouldn't have executed his plan because that's suicide, you are getting to enemy territory and ther you have levi and you don't have a plan to counter him, this is straight up suicide. Zeke had several days in the forest to think only about how to get away from levi because the other points of his plan have already been thought of and in execution. He had plenty of time to come up with some thing other than assuming levi won't kill his comarades and that he will let him get away, this is stupid knowing the first encounter between the 2 in s3 p3.

About the thunder spear that was't needed he could have just went on slicing his limbs and he won't transform, why risk your life for something stupid, and levi isn't the kind of person to do so.

hamza121419 said:
I'm sorry guys none of your answers are convincing, all you come up with is this is levi's goal he did this, this is zeke's goal he did that, yeah i got what they did and that's what i'm criticising cause it doesn't fit their characters, you are oversimplifying things alot, because they are in battle and they have to make the best decisions not just any random ones, and they are not characters that just make random decisions without thinking them through, levi didn' t even think of his plan he just executed it out of rage or whatever which goes against his character. I've evoked s3 p2 and how levi in a worse situation still was able to come up with great choices,but you guys seems to ignore that.

Zeke's assumption is even worse than levi's using the thunder spear because he already got beaten by levi and should have come up with a plan to face him even in one vs one situation. Him assuming he won't kill his comarades while he did sacrifice them in s3 p2 from zeke's pov is just dumb as fuck. I don't know how can you guys still defend everything isayama does even if it doesn't make sense, yes isayama is a great mangaka but he can make mistakes, but some of aot fans just can accept this fact and continue defending his mistakes even if they sound dumb.

hamza121419 said:
what he didn' t expect is the stupidity itself, from zeke's pov levi did sacrifice his friends to take him by surprise in s3 p2 and he is falling for the same trick again, levi killed his titans in s3 p2 very quickly and pursued him, zeke had enough info that showed what levi will do and decided to ignore that, no isayama decided to ignore that and gives this bullshit instead.