| objectively good anime actually exist? my life was a lie.... Yeah I still don't think there is a such thing. Even the most elitist of shows can get trashed on by someone else. Gargoyle08 said: That would make this community look boring. Diversed opinions are what makes discussions spicy.Can't we just enjoy anime as they are, even if they are trashy entertainment? |
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| I understand that a large part of enjoyment comes from subjectivity.But at the same time at some point you have to consider where that enjoyment comes from and that's when the objective aspect it comes into play.If everybody just decided to not look at an anime from a critical point of view,then you would just be telling people to settle for mediocrity.Remember even if you hate objectively good shows, they are considered classics for a reason. |
SummerynDec 30, 2019 6:35 AM
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| There is no such thing as objectively good in Entertainment. You either like something for what it is or you just don't. For example, I personally think that the Exploitation-classic "Faces of Death" is a masterpiece in narration and cinematography. Most other people think it's worthless trash and shock-value. "Legend of the Galactic Heroes" on the other hand I consider to be boring crap with zero entertainment value. |
MySweetLuciferDec 30, 2019 6:41 AM
| lol good point objective means facts and that means its reproducible or formulaic and they say formulaic things are boring |
| What a dumb question. You do understand that every employee strives for the perfection of his work, don't you? Now tell me, when you pay for something how will you justify the price on a faulty, average or just plain bad product. If quality wasn't important you would live like a bum consuming garbage that you paid for. |
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| @midascruzer We don't talk about the quality of food or other things where objective quality is important. We talk about entertainment. |
MySweetLucifer said: @midascruzer We don't talk about the quality of food or other things where objective quality is important. We talk about entertainment. Doesn't matter, it's still a product. The studio is trying to achieve greatness with the tools they have. You can't just say "ah art is solely subjective, you can't judge it's quality". It just doesn't work like that. You have to be really undemanding to say that you would settle for an anime with bad animation, pacing, voice acting, style, etc. |
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| but everything is objective now a days with all the cliches/formulaic/predictability so there is no originality anymore besides better execution |
midascruzer said: Doesn't matter, it's still a product. The studio is trying to achieve greatness with the tools they have. You can't just say "ah art is solely subjective, you can't judge it's quality". It just doesn't work like that. The try to achieve perfection according to their own standards. Not the standards of some snobbish fucks. |
| @weebanimeweed "Idiocracy"? That's your answer? A movie which is as stupid and unsubtle as the things it tries to make fun of? |
| how can something this subjective be objective? :) first there's opinions... but opinions don't matter if they are biased... most people have biased opinions and so don't realy matter to anybody but themselves ;) so no anime can be good/bad in everybody's opinion... some like to bash it because of bias, so... ignore those people. |
MySweetLucifer said: @weebanimeweed "Idiocracy"? That's your answer? A movie which is as stupid and unsubtle as the things it tries to make fun of? "as shitty and unsubtle as the world it tries to be a parody on" Well it's still entertainment wouldn't you agree? It can be as lazy, unimaginative garbage as possible as long as you are entertained. Perhaps an ass is entertaining for some so you can't argue against it, right? |
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| @midascruzer I'm of the opinion that a movie, book etc. should have entertainment-value. An ass for 90 minutes, doesn't sound very entertaining to me and can't even be considered a movie or a story. But that's not what I'm talking about. I make a difference between Entertainment which wants to be just that, and Entertainment that can be considered art. I even have movies as favourites which aren't entertaining at all, like "Faces of Death", "Melancholie der Engel", "Eyes Wide Shut" etc. but I think they are interesting in their artfullness. |
| Yes you can enjoy trashy anime and not enjoy the so called "good" anime. However enjoyment is as subjective as quality. |
MySweetLucifer said: @midascruzer I'm of the opinion that a movie, book etc. should have entertainment-value. An ass for 90 minutes, doesn't sound very entertaining to me and can't even be considered a movie or a story. But that's not what I'm talking about. I make a difference between Entertainment which wants to be just that, and Entertainment that can be considered art. I even have movies as favourites which aren't entertaining at all, like "Faces of Death", "Melancholie der Engel", "Eyes Wide Shut" etc. but I think they are interesting in their artfullness. Yes, it should have entertainment value. I'm not arguing against that but objectively good also means good cinematography as in good compositions, action scenes, pacing, acting, colour grading, tension building and whatnot. Your film can't be lacking in these departments. "I think they are interesting in their artfullness." So they do have entertainment value. lel |
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midascruzer said: What a dumb question. You do understand that every employee strives for the perfection of his work, don't you?. Do they? I'm not sure of your experiences so I won't speculate but this is far from the case in my experience at work. |
Gargoyle08 said: midascruzer said: What a dumb question. You do understand that every employee strives for the perfection of his work, don't you? Now tell me, when you pay for something how will you justify the price on a faulty, average or just plain bad product. If quality wasn't important you would live like a bum consuming garbage that you paid for. Are we still talking about anime here? What sells today isn't high-acclaimed intellectual 'good' anime so the companies do not make that but instead focus on the 'average or just plain bad product' as you say. What you are advising for is the death of the industry. What sells today is garbage because you are content and undemanding. You accepted the obviously inferior entertainment and you are satisfied. "What you are advising for is the death of the industry." please elaborate |
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| @midascruzer And what if me and you have completely different views on what makes all of these aspects "good". Pacing for example. I like slow-paced movies. 2001-Space Odyssee for example is still one of the greatest Sci-Fi movies and I think the slow-pacing really fits it right. |
MySweetLucifer said: @midascruzer And what if me and you have completely different views on what makes all of these aspects "good". Pacing for example. I like slow-paced movies. 2001-Space Odyssee for example is still one of the greatest Sci-Fi movies and I think the slow-pacing really fits it right. "slow-pacing really fit it right" You are objectively correct because context matters. You have to choose the right methods for the experience you are trying to achieve. |
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My fucking Keyboard is not that new anymore so there are errors that I have to fix for not paying enough attention so please stop that. But there are different people with different views. There are people who hate 2001 for that slow-pacing. |
| I really dislike this black and white approach. Quality can be fun, but isn't necessarily required to have fun. |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
MySweetLucifer said: My fucking Keyboard is not that new anymore so there are errors that I have to fix for not paying enough attention so please stop that. But there are different people with different views. There are people who hate 2001 for that slow-pacing. That's fine. You can dislike the medium, yet it won't determine it's objective quality. The same can be observed with food or virtually anything. |
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| "Why is it so important for an anime to be objectively good?" No anime can be that in the first place... |
| Boring school homework is dry shit (like, LOGH). Dry stuff is not objectively good. And one does not have to be fun, to be interesting (like, Texhnolyze). Also, it is important, because you should have a sense of value. And fun stuff can also be considered as objectively good (like, Baccano and Inferno Cop). So I do not really know what are you talking about. |
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midascruzer said: That's fine. You can dislike the medium, yet it won't determine it's objective quality. The same can be observed with food or virtually anything. I mean actually I don't care. I don't give stuff ratings on MAL or anywhere else, because I don't think it's necessary. |
| There is no such thing as something objectively good, because quality depends on too much aspects, you can't put an unique definition on the term "good". That said, I think people too easily resume medias to pure entertainment, and base their whole perception of it through that term, which is very restrictive. Before being entertainment, medias are art, they're made for entertainment, sure, but that doesn't mean that this is their sole purpose and the only way we should consider them. Even though every work of art is different and doesn't work the same way as the others, there are still specific codes in constructive analysis, such as character development, world-building, coherence, and such... And that's specifically the point of a constructive opinion. What if it doesn't hold any objective value ? Does it mean that it has the same value as any other ? Not necesseraly. It entirely depends on how much you are able to build a solid reasonning of a work of art, of its construction, of its aims, and of its characters. That is why I believe entertainment and critical opinion should be as much separate as they can be. I don't believe in the fatality of "Everything depends on your tastes" because art doesn't only belongs to yourself, just because it can only be interpreted through a human mind doesn't mean that you cannot perfect your perception of it, make it more just. Story-telling has many ways of functionning, but it isn't something purely random that you can't get an actual grasp of. Building your critical opinion on pure entertainment will only lead to randomness, you can't really have a decent critical credibility if the entirity of your critics are based on your feelings. Even though we can't reach an objective state of critic, I think assuming that everything is purely random and taste-based is way too easy of a way to go. That's why I'd cut the "objective" for "rationnality" which is a more modest term. Rationnality doesn't imply that you HAVE to be objective, but that you make use of your reasonning to build fair and solid analysis. Don't try to be objective, you can't. But don't be that guy who will only resume everything to "I think whatever I want and nothing holds any value besides what I decide of it". Extreme relativism is really the worse mentality to have when you want to discuss critical opinions with each other. |
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Gargoyle08 said: midascruzer said: What sells today is garbage because you are content and undemanding. You accepted the obviously inferior entertainment and you are satisfied. "What you are advising for is the death of the industry." please elaborate You want superior products but do not see that there needs to be a certain demand and understanding of them from the paying (consumer) party. The majority won't get them thus there won't be any profit in for the industry to produce these shows. Are you trying to imply that a fruitless company is the consumers fault? There is a demand and high quality products should sell quite well. You just have to improve your marketing. Look at the gaming industry. It's getting pushed into oblivion because the customers have certain standards. The companies try to satisfy their audience. They try new and well tested tactics and it works for most companies. They still make a profit with a $60 pricetag which is low considering the production. |
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| Art is subjective, that's why many people take different things out of it. However, technical aspects are objective. |
| Objectivity doesn't exist, except for talking about facts. So objectively good is retarded, as objectivity isn't good or bad. |
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| It just means people want to talk about anime, describe and share insights about anime. By making judgements of anime one share one's taste and insight with others. Other people can then answer with their reasoning. Objective vs subjective is wrong because subjective opinions are not invalid in discussions and objective facts are up for discussion if they truly are facts, but that needs to argued and not relativized. Both subjective and objective arguments can be challenged by reasoning. @Gargoyle08 If one is only after pure enjoyment and do not care about anything else, then the question is why one choose to watch anime and not just choose the most simple entertainment available. Taste is contemplating why one choose one entertainment over another, if one come up with a specific reason then that is a pragmatic reason and not based on taste. Liking something based on taste makes one unable to come up with any specific reason for it, but one cannot stop contemplating it. So showing one's taste is to describe the anime and pick and choose elements of it that stand out for one that one want to discuss. |
| I enjoy objectively good anime, so idk what the hell you're talking about. |
The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows.  |
Milk_is_Special said: You're contradicting yourself. If I say murder isn't objectively bad then is that true?Objectivity doesn't exist, except for talking about facts. So objectively good is retarded, as objectivity isn't good or bad. |
| The word elitist is stupid since it's just used by people who can't defend their favorite shows and use it on people who criticize their favorite shows. |
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