Attack on Titan
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Lel0uchZer0 said: heg said: ye you got no argument then Grisha even says to Zeke to stop Eren in the final panels of this chapter because he saw the future memories of Eren I mean thanks for making my argument No point trying to convience you of the obvious just do as you please just because you read the word future you just denied everything about the past influences of Eren here huh nice work |
Patokwak said: Is it possible that as the Attack Titan is a former part of Ymir, then Ymir would be the real mastermind? It's certainly possible. If she were the 1st titan shifter, then the attack titan's abilities would have been part of the ultimate power she received some 2000 years ago, and she would then have theoretically been able to peer into the future through it's successors, masterminding thuis entire plot. Given how close we are to the end of the story though, it would surprise me if Ymir was anything more than just a plot device at this point. If she were to suddenly rise up like Kaguya from Naruto, it would be really disappointing. However, her origin story is still sketchy at best as there are currently different versions of events told both by Marleyan and Eldian texts. I'm hoping we'll get some sort of backstory next chapter should Eren make contact with her. At this point in the story, I'm willing to concede that anything is possible. This delving into past memories reminds me a lot of the movie "The Butterfly Effect" where the MC regularly delves into his memories of the past in order to alter the events of the future. Except instead of using himself as the source of the change, Eren is using the memories of previous AT shifters instead. |
xenosysSep 5, 2019 4:30 AM
| so according to Grisha the Attack titan's ability is future vision, however in Eren's case when he touches some one with royal blood the power of the Attack titan is amplified, not only can he see the past & the future & travel in the memories but he can even influence the other people in the memories that he can see, and the changes in those memories are turned into on the ground reality, we have already seen this at the beginning of the manga when Mikasa wakes up Eren & he tells her something like "since when did your hair get so long?, I just had the longest dream ever" & then he starts crying, that was not a coincidence, two possibilties to explain what happened, either grown up Eren was sending visions to child Eren, or the grown up totally screwed up & so he literaly went back in time & lost his memories temporarily as a side effect. and now Eren will touch Ymir herself! you can't get any more royal than that! just how much will the Attack titan's ability be amplified this time? so guys prepare for a major developement next chapter. |
Luciberi said: look at this moment in the first chapter and now look at this moment in the latest chapter it's in the first fucking chapter. Grisha is looking at adult Eren. God damn, exactly like I was saying, this man planned everything out from the start. Fucking hell seeing how even small things like this tie in so damn late into the story always leaves me at a loss for words. |
LoneWalkers said: Anokata-DD said: @LoneWalkers Yes it is a causal (not casual) loop. And paths do not disrupt the flow of time, they are a part of it, that's the point. Attack on Titan does follow the rules of the concept. Explain how it's a part of it? Closed causal loops(having single cause and effect) are supposed to preserve self-consistency laws, someone with Attack Titan powers who can foresee the past, with the element of paths, there is no way it follows bootstrap paradox as other factors don't remain constant. Unless of course, it makes up its own rules.~ >Paths do not disrupt the flow of time So you are saying sending memories back and to the future are a part of it? Makes zero sense. I don't think you understood very well what happened in this chapter, so I'll make it very simple: TL;DR Grisha, the Owl and likely all Attack Titans from the past are getting "premonitions" and "being influenced" through PATHS by their future successors (in case of Grisha and likely the Owl, by Eren). The other way around seems to also happen, but in the case of Grisha and the Owl, as very implied through dialogue that their actions were influenced by Eren ever since at some point in his life as one of the Attack Titan wielders, he decided to do what he think it's best. And that decision might have been, of course, directly influenced by the information he gathered through PATHS from those other past individuals before him, and maybe even his possible successor (as the end of the chapter seems to imply that Eren already knows the conclusion to the tale). The Owl's own motivations seem to have been boosted in some way by Eren's will much like Grisha, as since chapter 89-90 or so, he did say something that would be of utmost importance to Eren, which carried out to Grisha as soon as he became the fated successor of the Attack Titan, naturally (To save Armin and Mikasa). And of course, this whole "memories from the future affecting people in the present or even past (also vice-versa)" thing has been an ongoing theme for the longest time. It's not like this twist was in any way incoherent with the previously established information thus far, much for the contrary, it's surprisingly consistent, and many theorized that this was the case ever since the basement reveal chapters in which they formely introduced PATHS. |
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| The time travel stuff is whatever but I don't like how the author is building up Eren to be the bad guy here. What next? He's the one who fucked up with the original Yimer? |
Chill out Kathy Newman, considering the quote you got that from was complaining about straw-men, you probably shouldn't make one of your own. That quote doesn't say that you shouldn't follow foreshadowing but that execution is just as important and if you fuck up one, you've fucked the entire story. That foreshadow isn't a blanket excuse for any developments to be immediately accepted. And? You can just have one season favorited. You're not going to convince even the people who agree with you that you're not a fervent fan of this series. That's another fallacy, being a fan of those series does not detract or somehow restrict you from being a AOT fan boy. All of your defences are entirely fallacious. Also, I've noticed you ignored the original straw-man complaint. Are you going to admit that was an awful straw-man? |
YautjaSep 5, 2019 7:20 AM
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LoneWalkers said: Danpmss said: I don't think you understood very well what happened in this chapter, so I'll make it very simple: TL;DR Grisha, the Owl and likely all Attack Titans from the past are getting "premonitions" and "being influenced" through PATHS by their future successors (in case of Grisha and likely the Owl, by Eren). The other way around seems to also happen, but in the case of Grisha and the Owl, as very implied through dialogue that their actions were influenced by Eren ever since at some point in his life as one of the Attack Titan wielders, he decided to do what he think it's best. And that decision might have been, of course, directly influenced by the information he gathered through PATHS from those other past individuals before him, and maybe even his possible successor (as the end of the chapter seems to imply that Eren already knows the conclusion to the tale). The Owl's own motivations seem to have been boosted in some way by Eren's will much like Grisha, as since chapter 89-90 or so, he did say something that would be of utmost importance to Eren, which carried out to Grisha as soon as he became the fated successor of the Attack Titan, naturally (To save Armin and Mikasa). And of course, this whole "memories from the future affecting people in the present or even past (also vice-versa)" thing has been an ongoing theme for the longest time. It's not like this twist was in any way incoherent with the previously established information thus far, much for the contrary, it's surprisingly consistent, and many theorized that this was the case ever since the basement reveal chapters in which they formely introduced PATHS. Maybe read the other posts and stop quoting with an irrelevant comment? We have already established it's similar to a bootstrap paradox, someone also explained it for others in a better way. The problem lies elsewhere, the consistency laws connected to the paradox. I think I explained how it worked pretty clearly, I mean, what "problem" exactly? Spoiler for Steins;Gate included: In Shingeki no Kyojin, PATHS work more like destiny that at some point will be forged through the connections of people through time since their memories are connected even before the time they are actually born as long as the person in question at some point inherits the titan, as expected from PATHS. This has been thrown at us quite a few times now. PATHS itself is predetermined. The people who get to connnect their memories through the Attack Titan likely were influenced and also influenced others themselves from the moment they got connected in their memories. The trigger to this bigger flux of information being transmitted seems to be quite well established to be "entering in contact with someone of Royal blood" (which the Owl clearly did at some point, much like Grisha did at some point as well, and also Eren, of course). |
DanpmssSep 5, 2019 7:39 AM
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Luciberi said: look at this moment in the first chapter and now look at this moment in the latest chapter it's in the first fucking chapter. Grisha is looking at adult Eren. Time to reread the entire thing and pay attention with whom people are actually talking. Honestly, I loved the chapter. Though, I would really liketo know more about the paths dimension and the rules in it. Is it physical to the extent that people can hurt each other? Eren tore his thumb off, so I would assume so. Does Eren now have to eat Ymir to gain control? |
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That's unneeded, especially since my argument is precisely that they don't share similarities other than some coincidences. Shingeki no Kyojin is clearly and explicit told to be spiritually inspired by Muv Luv Alternative, which also has a similar status quo inevitability regarding their Causality Conductor plot device (although there's a LOT of hard sci-fi that isn't at all the same in Shingeki no Kyojin, since, despite some other similarities in terms of plot, they are vastly different works with vastly different stories and settings; for one, Shingeki isn't really sci-fi and never really tried to be, it always relied more in mythos, politics and religious allegories instead). |
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LoneWalkers said: See, that's why I told you to actually read the posts of three pages. We already agreed this mechanism isn't similar to steins;gate since there is no worldlines stuff here, but more of a closed causal loop(look up Novikov consistency principles to see how that's a problem here, can't bother to explain same thing 5 times in one topic for every random quote). If you don't have anything to add in that regard, stop quoting me and post on a separate topic instead.~ I've read everything since the start of my explanation in the very first post I quoted you, I'm asking what part of my explanation "didn't add up and does not contribute to the answer you are looking for" to your argument "that was already discussed" and I know very well it was? |
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Modernoir said: ... it's not THAT hard to believe the man's planned everything out from the beginning, but of course gotta get those brownie points by making useless comments on new chapters for a popular series. Whilst I agree with most of your points in the post, it's unlikely that he's had this particular ending planned out from the start when he admitted himself that the manga was originally due to end a long time ago with everyone dying, but was later convinced to keep it going due to the it's success. He's probably took elements of parts of the story and made them fit with his new version of events. It's still been done extremely well so I'll give Isayama huge credit for that. |
xenosysSep 5, 2019 8:03 AM
| DARKKK ERENNN WTFFFFF THAT WAS SOO FUCKING LITTTT!!!!!! Eren literally manipulated Grisha??!?!?!??? This is some Lelouch shit right here... All good things aside, dang cliffhangers again... and the pacing of the dialogue aint really that smooth tbh Solid chapter, cant wait for 122... dangit |
on Devil_Slayer said: nahh he aint bad guy bruhh he more "the ends justify the means" guy and hell he prolly be the hero of Eldians in the end.The time travel stuff is whatever but I don't like how the author is building up Eren to be the bad guy here. What next? He's the one who fucked up with the original Yimer? DARK EREN = BEST EREN |
Hhguf said: The main character was actually the last boss villan And the villan was actually the hero You cant seriously think Zeke is the hero of SnK bruhhh... unless you agree that euthanizing all Eldians is a good thig to do. I still think Eren's the 'hero', a morally grey one. |
Lel0uchZer0 said: heg said: the only time travel stuff in the entertainment industry of the whole world afaik that is close to being scientific is the Avengers Endgame time travel rules (Many Worlds Theory in Quantum Physics) Endgame time travel rules are by far the worst ones i've seen in my life The only time time travel worked was steins gate Thank god this is not time travel Endgame's time travel rules are definitely bad and shouldn't be set as good examples. Everything that they change in the past wont affect anything in the future for some reason. |
LoneWalkers said: Danpmss said: I'm asking what part of my explanation "didn't add up and does not contribute to the answer you are looking for" to your argument "that was already discussed" and I know very well it was? Unless you are explaining how causal time loop is established by keeping the other factors consistent(like Novikov principles), don't bother explaining anything because so far there has been no "contribution" to that from your posts(since most of it is already established and agreed here), at least the post that I quoted initially was logical enough to bring up an argument and proper discussion. Have a great day. ~ There's literally no casual time loop, there's not a single time loop. There's people in the past receiving information from the future and being influenced by it (and vice versa) in a predetermined timeline. IT DOESN'T FOLLOW NOVIKOV PRINCIPLES in the first place, why did you ever think that it would be the case? This is a supernatural plot device in a series about Giant god-like creatures with fantastic abilities, for Christ sake, the story never once even implied that, your argument makes no sense. It's following very well, to a T, the rules it establishes for itself, and that's the important thing. That's my contribution, you are severely misinterpreting the content given with your own ideas of how you think this theorically works, scientifically speaking. |
DanpmssSep 5, 2019 8:24 AM
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| Yikes, I dont know how to feel about Erens memory manipulation power. It just feels so out of place for this type of story for me, yes memory viewing has been a thing for a while, but it was more of a passive stance. Like when a shifter eats another they just learn about their past and decide what to do from there and that's it. However..This more aggressive approach from Eren with memories just feels wrong for this series for me. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the manga, but at this point it just feels like Isayama is making Eren God of the story. |
Dave_Adrian said: Hhguf said: The main character was actually the last boss villan And the villan was actually the hero You cant seriously think Zeke is the hero of SnK bruhhh... unless you agree that euthanizing all Eldians is a good thig to do. I still think Eren's the 'hero', a morally grey one. If you think about the likely outcomes of this story, euthanization would actually be the most utilitarian approach to the entire situation. It's certainly the lesser of a few evils, and most painless way given the other potential outcomes. What options are there given that Isayama has promised us that everyone won't be riding off into the sunset? Eren activates the rumbling and genocides every single race on the planet except those Eldians still within the walls of Wall Sina? Probably wipes out 99% of the population. That would be my own guess given the clues that we've been given. Eren uses the power of the founding titan to ensure Eldians no longer have the ability to transform into titans thus removing them as a threat? Marley will still invade off the back off 2000 years of persecution and hate, and either enslave all Eldians or Genocide them because they're now of no use to them in wars etc. They'll also invade to steal their resources on the island. Eldians also no longer have the option of defending themselves because they no longer have titan abilities. Diplomatic Talks to resolve the situation without conflict? Well Kyomi has already confirmed that those have failed and Paradis are effectively on their own with the rest of the world launching an attack within 6 month off the back of Eren's invasion of Liberio. I suppose it depends on your perspective and who you think is in the right and who's in the wrong and who you personally think are the "good" guys in this story. Is it the Eldians who have been persecuted for over a century off the back of thousands of years of colonization and conquest at the expense of others? or is the Marleyans, who are exacting revenge and doling out punitive measures to allow Eldians to atone for the sins of their ancestors? There's no right answer. That's part of what makes the series excellent, it doesn't stick to standard shounen tropes of distinguishable lines in the sand between good and bad and dares explore it's characters morality in a dark and disturbing manner. Eren's probably more of an anti-hero at this point imo. |
xenosysSep 5, 2019 8:29 AM
LoneWalkers said: Cheers, no wonder your comments were pointless and irrelevant, you disagree with the basic and fundamental premise of the initial topic itself. Hence, the one who started this casual time loop discussion Says the person who can't answer one comment straight and can't argue for crap, only evade contrary opinion and disregard them as irrelevant. I'm arguing with you because you are the one who started the whole time loop, time-travel laws and paradox talk in the first place. I only quoted that post especifically since it had the more balanced and convenient amount of discussion for me to introduce my argument. Or did I ever said this idea was yours when I posted? From what I recall, I only called out that you didn't seem to understand the plot the way it was presented. The rest is you bringing up other people's arguments introduced in the discussion as your own objective line of thought. If you don't want to argue, don't start a flamebait and then try to escapegoat getting the person who first presented it to discuss in your place. |
DanpmssSep 5, 2019 8:37 AM
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Byleth-Kun said: Yikes, I dont know how to feel about Erens memory manipulation power. It just feels so out of place for this type of story for me, yes memory viewing has been a thing for a while, but it was more of a passive stance. Like when a shifter eats another they just learn about their past and decide what to do from there and that's it. However..This more aggressive approach from Eren with memories just feels wrong for this series for me. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the manga, but at this point it just feels like Isayama is making Eren God of the story. Attack on Titan = Naruto |
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LoneWalkers said: Danpmss said: I only quoted that post especifically since it had the more balanced and convenient amount of discussion for me to introduce my argument. Or did I ever said this idea was yours when I posted? From what I recall, I only called out that you didn't seem to understand the plot the way it was presented. . So a small advice for next time, instead of interfering in another argument just for your own sweet convenience, try to make a separate post so that it can be constructed properly without any initial assumptions or wasting other's time. I already had a proper discussion and argued with six users who properly made similar arguments like you(reason why I told you to read the previous posts), so cheers and see you another day~ Hm... I think we can end this here to be honest, wish you a good day as well. Just to clear up regarding quotting in the discussion at hand, however (spoilered since is off-topic): vvvwwi said: Byleth-Kun said: Yikes, I dont know how to feel about Erens memory manipulation power. It just feels so out of place for this type of story for me, yes memory viewing has been a thing for a while, but it was more of a passive stance. Like when a shifter eats another they just learn about their past and decide what to do from there and that's it. However..This more aggressive approach from Eren with memories just feels wrong for this series for me. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoy the manga, but at this point it just feels like Isayama is making Eren God of the story. Attack on Titan = Naruto Naruto spoilers |
DanpmssSep 5, 2019 9:16 AM
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| Lmao at the people calling Eren the villain. 5/5 chapter. The wait for the next one will be hard. |
| I use Arch, btw. |
Devil_Slayer said: The time travel stuff is whatever but I don't like how the author is building up Eren to be the bad guy here. What next? He's the one who fucked up with the original Yimer? honestly the story is progressing quite good now, as long as Isayama doesn't decide to shove Gabbi down our throat & make her inheret the Attack titan to make her relevant then I'm OK with the current progression. |
Dave_Adrian said: Devil_Slayer said: nahh he aint bad guy bruhh he more "the ends justify the means" guy and hell he prolly be the hero of Eldians in the end.The time travel stuff is whatever but I don't like how the author is building up Eren to be the bad guy here. What next? He's the one who fucked up with the original Yimer? DARK EREN = BEST EREN Most villian protagonists were written with that mindset from the start so turning Eren into the final boss isn't I would stand behind. Eren always had a gray morality but he been crossing the line too often since the time-skip. While he may not be a flat-out villian yet, I lost my faith in his cause long ago because of all the methods he took. He's not any better than Marley, I know this is kinda he points Isyama is going for, but that doesn't change the fact that I am emotionally discounted from his goal and cause. I am just watching it unfold at this point without taking any side because both sides are shit. |
Luciberi said: look at this moment in the first chapter and now look at this moment in the latest chapter it's in the first fucking chapter. Grisha is looking at adult Eren. its all connect and i think this is the time we discuss who is grisha holding in the last panel that revealed by isayama before, im pretty sure the father is grisha but the child is between eren and zeke whoever win in the next chapter i cant predict who's gonna "free" in the end no one can, isayama is pure genius *sorry my english so bad |
vexiaishereSep 5, 2019 10:03 AM
| Going to leave this here |
| Overall a great chapter, probably the best so far, almost as good if not better than chapter 100, everything seems to have been planned way way back, and if you pay attention to things and link them together, everything does actually really make sense. There is a lot of vocal idiots in this post, honestly it is either people that didn't understand the chapter and don't want to understand it, or people that obviously didn't catch the foreshadowing and are trying to make it look like just random shit when it was referenced way back in the first chapters... But this is a MAL post so it is expected for elitists to show up :) |
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JoachimV said: Also, if eren did in fact influence grisha, and grisha asked zeke to stop eren. Why did grisha still end up giving eren the Attack titan? And told him to avenge his mom and save mikasa and armin? Even after grisha had seen the “terrifying scene” eren caused in the future? And then told zeke to stop eren. Like I don’t get it man. Please help. I know there’s no asspull here, but I’m trying really hard to understand. It was mentioned by Zeke in one panel that Eren had shown Grisha something from the future, which convinced him to give him the titans, despite Grisha seeing the aftermath of what Eren had planned and found it terrifying. So it's safe to say that what Eren had shown Grisha was a number of different events in the future. One of the aftermath of his plan, which he found terrifying, and another event which strong-armed Grisha into handing over the titans. Possibly a future of Eren and Mikasa dying had he not done so? Who knows. |
xenosysSep 5, 2019 10:40 AM
Devil_Slayer said: Dave_Adrian said: nahh he aint bad guy bruhh he more "the ends justify the means" guy and hell he prolly be the hero of Eldians in the end. DARK EREN = BEST EREN Most villian protagonists were written with that mindset from the start so turning Eren into the final boss isn't I would stand behind. Eren always had a gray morality but he been crossing the line too often since the time-skip. While he may not be a flat-out villian yet, I lost my faith in his cause long ago because of all the methods he took. He's not any better than Marley, I know this is kinda he points Isyama is going for, but that doesn't change the fact that I am emotionally discounted from his goal and cause. I am just watching it unfold at this point without taking any side because both sides are shit. "I am emotionally discounted from his goal and cause." I don't think his goal and cause have been revealed yet.... |
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zerotitan said: @Yautja And? You can just have one season favorited. You're not going to convince even the people who agree with you that you're not a fervent fan of this series. That's another fallacy, being a fan of those series does not detract or somehow restrict you from being an AOT fanboy. All of your defenses are entirely fallacious. Also, I've noticed you ignored the original straw-man complaint. Are you going to admit that was an awful straw-man? 1. So I have no problem saying I am a fan of this series. 2. If you actually see my initial reply to your post there was no dismissive sound or zealous defense kind of thing it was just an argument from my side on which we could have a simple discussion, which you clearly not intended, you bring in since I am fanboy I won't listen to criticism, while if you see my other post I was clearly engaged with other users in a simple discussion with exchange of arguments from their side and my side presented based on our understanding. My argument could have been wrong, but you brought up unnecessarily fan boy thing. Further, the kind of arguments I have made have been made by several other users so I don't know if you consider arguments from their perspectives as a zealous defense of some high-level constructive criticism points you made. 3. Your logic of rewarding me with fanboy tag is very weak actually, since I have 9/20 favourites related to snk I am a fan boy, fine so by your logic when I would have watched some over 100 animes , I would have read some more mangas, and after all that when I am able to use all my 40 available slots of favourites then it will be 9/40 snk related and during this time even list also can change so final snk related favourites will be less than or equal to 9 out of 40 so will I not be a fanboy by your explanation? 4. I have just watched around 30 anime series out of which I already have 4 series as my favourites, when the no. of animes I watch will increase and possibly I may find different favourites then obviously I will change my list , keep 1 or 2 snk seasons and make space for others but till then I don't see problem in keeping them, no reason to be called out as fanboy for this reason. 5. I don't expect a good discussion from you since to my very first argument even if according to you it was faulty, strawman or whatever you could have simply pointed out the fault in the point I made but you chose to divert the discussion from chapter points to "YOUR CRITICISM IS GOOD AND AS A FANBOY I WON"T LISTEN TO IT". So I won't reply you any further. Peace Out! 1. No one said other wise, I called you a fan boy which isn't the same thing. Which is something you seem to have a problem with. Oh straw-man my straw-man. 2. Yea, and your next one was dismissive. And your other argument with another person sure did seem zealous. And considering how you did straw-man and later dismiss my criticism, I was right. Being a fan boy, extremely bias, is most certainly relevant. 3. Oh really? What would define a fan boy as then? Clearly you don't have one because yet again your using some fallacious response by linking it to total anime watched and how that scales instead of acknowledging that your profile overwhelming reflects one series. 4. Fanboy: A person who is an extremely or overly enthusiastic fan in regards to a specific subject. You are a fan boy and this has got to be the dumbest hill for you to die on. Again. Another fallacious response. Your profile, name and COMMENTING HISTORY solely reflect AOT, and considering I've hit a nerve so hard, you've actually changed your profile name and picture, so I take that to mean I am right even moreso. 5. I did point out it was a straw-man, the very first sentence and all following pointed out how you were wrong and only a single one called you a fan boy, so if we're going to play the fallacious statistics game, 7/8 sentences related to your fallacy, while only one related to your fan boy nature, so you are the one diverting discussion. And considering in each subsequent response, you were the one focusing on the fan boy label, I don't see how I am in any way responsible for derailing. Fucking fanboys have gone so far crazy they won't even admit what they are. |
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LoneWalkers said: Anokata-DD said: @LoneWalkers Yes it is a causal (not casual) loop. And paths do not disrupt the flow of time, they are a part of it, that's the point. Attack on Titan does follow the rules of the concept. Explain how it's a part of it? Closed causal loops(having single cause and effect) are supposed to preserve self-consistency laws, someone with Attack Titan powers who can foresee the past, with the element of paths, there is no way it follows bootstrap paradox as other factors don't remain constant. Unless of course, it makes up its own rules.~ >Paths do not disrupt the flow of time So you are saying sending memories back and to the future are a part of it? Makes zero sense. I think the flow of time in AoT is more similar to the one of the film ARRIVAL, time is not seen as a PAST - PRESENT - FUTURE one happening after the other, instead it is seen as a dimension, all three of them happening at the same time as frames in a film and our way of perceiving it is just an illusion, so even if knowing the future you cannot change it, because you seeing the future was already part of the equation (so there is no timeline A where everything happened first and the sent it back to timeline B and changed the past, there is only one timeline, where the people saw their future as they would see a different frame of the film where the future was happening). Time it is not seeing as something happening step by step but happening all together at the same moment, and the way we humans perceive it is our inhability to move (or see) freely in this dimension, but the PATHS allow you to see freely. It is a pain in the ass to explain, but I think that film does it that way. |
| <img src="http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/6832/anigiftus.gif"/> |
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