Why do anime lack subtlety

teruu said:
AS a beautiful comment on anime states



Why do you think anime goes over the top to express obvious emotions in their anime plot context? The most common case with such anime are in the love genre where the feelings are expression in the most obvious way but the main characters lack any if at all subtility. Why is this so common in anime? Is this Japanese culture?

Bourmegar said:

Animation series in General tend to be more expressive then tv shows.
And that is simply because they can.

Anime and etc revels in being unrealistic.
And yh Japanese culture is also a reason.

Deknijff said:
Was that quote written around 2015 or something where everything had to be seen as a deconstruction to be slightly relevant in peoples's eyes and the term was thrown around at random at everything

StarSwoardsman said:
I don't know what you are talking about, but there are plenty of anime that has subtly.

Take a look at Neon Genesis Evangelion. While some of it's themes are in your face, a lot of the actual scenes between the characters are very subtle. For example the first scene between Shinji and Rei. You see Shinji enter her room and look around and notices the mess that it is. We can infer from this that Rei herself is a mess without even seeing her yet. Then Rei comes into her room and does not react to Shinji seeing her in a towel, but does get angry to see him with Gendo's glasses. We can tell right away that Rei does not have proper boundaries, but she does clearly care about Gendo.

Other shows that have good subtly would be Psycho Pass, Elfen Lied, Attack On Titan, Cowboy Bebop, Your Lie In April, Nana, Toradora!, Noir, Gunslinger Girl, Kids On The Slope, Paradise Kiss, Re Zero, Wolf's Rain, Paranoid Agent, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suizmiya, Initial D , Sound Euphonium, K-ON! among others.

As for movies, Miyzaki, Shinkai, Hosada and Yamada are all about subtly. Simply watch A silent voice as it's got so many little things going on. Satsohi Kon was great at this as well. The Disappearance Of Haruhi Suzimiaya was subtle genius.

bitchassdarius said:

evangelion is hardly subtle, all of the characters' emotions are not only telegraphed clearly but repeatedly so

jal90 said:
So is this another of your "why am I right please circlejerk me or don't post at all" threads?

teruu said:
No idea but you seem mad about it. Why?

StarSwoardsman said:

I did say that their themes are in your face and yes, the emotions can in fact be very theatrical. But, there is a ton of subtly in the character relating and the actual direction of the show. It's a really good mix that allows for the show to engaging while also be something worth looking at in an intellectual and emotional way IMO.

I was about to say.

bitchassdarius said:

what i'm saying is those subtleties aren't actually subtle, more like it's information already ascertained that's beaten into the viewers

Energetic-Nova said:
Animation as a medium requires greater expression. Sadamoto said it perfectly when he said why he felt drawing Shinji Ikari was the most difficult, and it was do to the subtly of his expressions. And he also said this is why he enjoys drawing female characters more.

Making a character have subtle, more realistic expressions is more difficult and less fun. It is really not a good use of the medium either.

StarSwoardsman said:

Not really. I'm not even sure you know the definition of subtly. Here it is for you:sub·tly
ˈsəd(ə)lē,ˈsətlē/
adverb
adverb: subtly
1.
in a manner that is so delicate or precise as to be difficult to analyze or describe.
"the script subtly shifts in tone from comedy to tragedy"
in a delicately complex and understated way.
"a subtly flavored dessert"
2.
in a clever and indirect way, in order to achieve something.
"he would prattle on about something else for a while before subtly raising the question again"

Evangelion definetely fits the definiton.

bitchassdarius said:

yes really, the scene you described isn't subtle, that's just basic character work. "show not tell" is the standard, most people don't consider very standard writing to be "subtle"
additionally, multiple scenes of shinji talking about his worthlessness through the whole show is pretty much the opposite of subtle. as a point of comparison, think of all the different ways you could depict shinji's self-hatred without him outright talking about it. the show's not subtle at all

StarSwoardsman said:

If you read that defintion then the scene that I stated fits the second definition. We had never met Rei and knew nothing about her. But, we learn about her in an indirect way.

Do you read bro? I already said that the show can be pretty on the nose. It's like you ignore what the other person says and just want to be right. Geez, don't respond to me again.

teruu said:
The most common case with such anime are in the love genre where the feelings are expression in the most obvious way but the main characters lack any if at all subtility. Why is this so common in anime? Is this Japanese culture?

teruu said:


Being too expressive is overkill
While they can, they can also tend to improve it. You can notice that a lot of the top anime, although lack major quality in other aspects have their subtlility corrected. A good example would be Tokyo Ghoul with the exception of Kaneki who keeps going on and on about how he wants to be strong (it gets ridicolous obviously) but the anime fans keep hyping it up simply due to their unconditional love for Kaneki

bitchassdarius said:

what i'm saying is those subtleties aren't actually subtle, more like it's information already ascertained that's beaten into the viewers

gopivot said:
While you guy are at it

what's an example animes that has a lot of subtlety?

Energetic-Nova said:



So I am going to give you an example of a subtle expression Shinji makes.




or


^^^
yeah I used rebuilds bite me.






Sadamoto says Asuka is way more fun to draw.








Everything about how Asuka moves and how she has long hair, makes her more fun to draw.

Vs. Shinji who is difficult to not make look like he belongs in the background somewhere...

Asuka is more traditionally what anime characters were. And emotes similarly to a lot of characters made around that time. But Shinji does not. He emotes more like a 70's space opera character.

StarSwoardsman said:

Very good examples. And it fits both of their characters to a tee. Shinji is a depressive guy with avoidant personality disorder. Asuka clearly has borderline personality disorder and enjoys to put herself out there. Great character animation and direction.

Energetic-Nova said:



So I am going to give you an example of a subtle expression Shinji makes.




or


^^^
yeah I used rebuilds bite me.






Sadamoto says Asuka is way more fun to draw.








Everything about how Asuka moves and how she has long hair, makes her more fun to draw.

Vs. Shinji who is difficult to not make look like he belongs in the background somewhere...

Asuka is more traditionally what anime characters were. And emotes similarly to a lot of characters made around that time. But Shinji does not. He emotes more like a 70's space opera character.

bitchassdarius said:

that's not subtle, just downcast because shinji is generally depressed. faces generally can't have subtle emotions because faces are meant to be read. if you're looking for subtle expression, you should've provided examples of body movement, which we tend to use to express more subtle emotions. that's why reading body language is harder than reading someone's face

Energetic-Nova said:


I feel Shinji is more like.... Cloister syndrome.... (autistic).... Asuka is just a bitchy 14 year old who reminds me of... my sister.


I am autistic.... My sister is.... a bitch. She felt threatened when I did anything right.

Energetic-Nova said:


OK. :)



Pulls hand away from Misato.



Allows contact with Kaworu just a few episodes later.

StarSwoardsman said:

While all men are autistic to a certain extent (the male brain is basically the female brain on autism), Shinji isn't autistic because he can truly empathize with others and feel their pain. He is the most emotional character in the series by far.

Asuka very much has borderline personality disorder. As someone who has done a great deal of research on borderline personality disorder (which is hard to delve into due to it's complex nature) she fits it to a tee. Anno did an amazing job or showcasing what a true borderline personality girl is like.

These are the traits of someone who has borderline personality disorder:
Fear of abandonment. People with BPD are often terrified of being abandoned or left alone. Even something as innocuous as a loved one getting home late from work or going away for the weekend can trigger intense fear. This leads to frantic efforts to keep the other person close. You may beg, cling, start fights, jealously track your loved one’s movements, or even physically block the other person from leaving. Unfortunately, this behavior tends to have the opposite effect—driving others away.
Unstable relationships. People with BPD tend to have relationships that are intense and short-lived. You may fall in love quickly, believing each new person is the one who will make you feel whole, only to be quickly disappointed. Your relationships either seem perfect or horrible, with nothing in between. Your lovers, friends, or family members may feel like they have emotional whiplash from your rapid swings between idealization and devaluation, anger, and hate.
Unclear or unstable self-image. When you have BPD, your sense of self is typically unstable. Sometimes you may feel good about yourself, but other times you hate yourself, or even view yourself as evil. You probably don’t have a clear idea of who you are or what you want in life. As a result, you may frequently change jobs, friends, lovers, religion, values, goals, and even sexual identity.
Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors. If you have BPD, you may engage in harmful, sensation-seeking behaviors, especially when you’re upset. You may impulsively spend money you can’t afford, binge eat, drive recklessly, shoplift, engage in risky sex, or overdo it with drugs or alcohol. These risky behaviors may help you feel better in the moment, but they hurt you and those around you over the long-term.
Self-harm. Suicidal behavior and deliberate self-harm is common in people with BPD. Suicidal behavior includes thinking about suicide, making suicidal gestures or threats, or actually carrying out a suicide attempt. Self-harm includes all other attempts to hurt yourself without suicidal intent. Common forms of self-harm include cutting and burning.
Extreme emotional swings. Unstable emotions and moods are common with BPD. One moment, you may feel happy, and the next, despondent. Little things that other people brush off can send you into an emotional tailspin. These mood swings are intense, but they tend to pass fairly quickly (unlike the emotional swings of depression or bipolar disorder), usually lasting just a few minutes or hours.
Chronic feelings of emptiness. People with BPD often talk about feeling empty, as if there’s a hole or a void inside them. At the extreme, you may feel as if you’re “nothing” or “nobody.” This feeling is uncomfortable, so you may try to fill the hole with things like drugs, food, or sex. But nothing feels truly satisfying.
Explosive anger. If you have BPD, you may struggle with intense anger and a short temper. You may also have trouble controlling yourself once the fuse is lit—yelling, throwing things, or becoming completely consumed by rage. It’s important to note that this anger isn’t always directed outwards. You may spend a lot of time being angry at yourself.
Feeling suspicious or out of touch with reality. People with BPD often struggle with paranoia or suspicious thoughts about others’ motives. When under stress, you may even lose touch with reality—an experience known as dissociation. You may feel foggy, spaced out, or as if you’re outside your own body.

That's basically also Asuka's character traits LOL. She herself might be autistic too. She can't seem to really empahize with anyone.

Energetic-Nova said:



Ask anyone in the autistic community. If anything, we feel too much. We feel so much we become numb again. Outbursts come from frustration and people misunderstanding all the time or treating us bad.

Autistic community always identifies with either Rei, Shinji, or Kaworu. I was misdiagnosed with bipolar for a LONG time. I have Autism and ADHD with Tourettes.

bitchassdarius said:

see, these are good examples, but you can't provide them without the context of the scenes that they're in, and if you know the scenes, the information conveyed is redundant, as they're enacted by archetypes whose motives can be read down the line. so, yes, subtle in examination, but not subtle in practice

Energetic-Nova said:


But then again, many anime fans have never even gotten so far as to have their hand touched by someone else so eh.

StarSwoardsman said:

Very good examples. And it fits both of their characters to a tee. Shinji is a depressive guy with avoidant personality disorder. Asuka clearly has borderline personality disorder and enjoys to put herself out there. Great character animation and direction.

Energetic-Nova said:



Kaworu was talking about philosophy.

Misato was trying to comfort Shinji very directly.... >.>

Kaworu was jut talking about stuff that interests him, and wasn't being very direct until Which, people argue about endlessly what he meant by that.... and I am like... pretty sure when a man says to another man while they are naked....

But then again, many anime fans have never even gotten so far as to have their hand touched by someone else so eh.

StarSwoardsman said:

Bingo. Nail has been sufficently hit.

Energetic-Nova said:


I feel Shinji is more like.... Cloister syndrome.... (autistic).... Asuka is just a bitchy 14 year old who reminds me of... my sister.


I am autistic.... My sister is.... a bitch. She felt threatened when I did anything right.

bitchassdarius said:

kaworu is probably the most interesting character in evangelion, but he's also basically only in one episode, so i would hardly call him a representation of the whole show's writing

bitchassdarius said:

i like how you let someone else do your work for you and you can't even come up with your own insults. hop off his dick bro, it's unbecoming

StarSwoardsman said:

While all men are autistic to a certain extent (the male brain is basically the female brain on autism), Shinji isn't autistic because he can truly empathize with others and feel their pain. He is the most emotional character in the series by far.

Asuka very much has borderline personality disorder. As someone who has done a great deal of research on borderline personality disorder (which is hard to delve into due to it's complex nature) she fits it to a tee. Anno did an amazing job or showcasing what a true borderline personality girl is like.

These are the traits of someone who has borderline personality disorder:
Fear of abandonment. People with BPD are often terrified of being abandoned or left alone. Even something as innocuous as a loved one getting home late from work or going away for the weekend can trigger intense fear. This leads to frantic efforts to keep the other person close. You may beg, cling, start fights, jealously track your loved one’s movements, or even physically block the other person from leaving. Unfortunately, this behavior tends to have the opposite effect—driving others away.
Unstable relationships. People with BPD tend to have relationships that are intense and short-lived. You may fall in love quickly, believing each new person is the one who will make you feel whole, only to be quickly disappointed. Your relationships either seem perfect or horrible, with nothing in between. Your lovers, friends, or family members may feel like they have emotional whiplash from your rapid swings between idealization and devaluation, anger, and hate.
Unclear or unstable self-image. When you have BPD, your sense of self is typically unstable. Sometimes you may feel good about yourself, but other times you hate yourself, or even view yourself as evil. You probably don’t have a clear idea of who you are or what you want in life. As a result, you may frequently change jobs, friends, lovers, religion, values, goals, and even sexual identity.
Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors. If you have BPD, you may engage in harmful, sensation-seeking behaviors, especially when you’re upset. You may impulsively spend money you can’t afford, binge eat, drive recklessly, shoplift, engage in risky sex, or overdo it with drugs or alcohol. These risky behaviors may help you feel better in the moment, but they hurt you and those around you over the long-term.
Self-harm. Suicidal behavior and deliberate self-harm is common in people with BPD. Suicidal behavior includes thinking about suicide, making suicidal gestures or threats, or actually carrying out a suicide attempt. Self-harm includes all other attempts to hurt yourself without suicidal intent. Common forms of self-harm include cutting and burning.
Extreme emotional swings. Unstable emotions and moods are common with BPD. One moment, you may feel happy, and the next, despondent. Little things that other people brush off can send you into an emotional tailspin. These mood swings are intense, but they tend to pass fairly quickly (unlike the emotional swings of depression or bipolar disorder), usually lasting just a few minutes or hours.
Chronic feelings of emptiness. People with BPD often talk about feeling empty, as if there’s a hole or a void inside them. At the extreme, you may feel as if you’re “nothing” or “nobody.” This feeling is uncomfortable, so you may try to fill the hole with things like drugs, food, or sex. But nothing feels truly satisfying.
Explosive anger. If you have BPD, you may struggle with intense anger and a short temper. You may also have trouble controlling yourself once the fuse is lit—yelling, throwing things, or becoming completely consumed by rage. It’s important to note that this anger isn’t always directed outwards. You may spend a lot of time being angry at yourself.
Feeling suspicious or out of touch with reality. People with BPD often struggle with paranoia or suspicious thoughts about others’ motives. When under stress, you may even lose touch with reality—an experience known as dissociation. You may feel foggy, spaced out, or as if you’re outside your own body.

That's basically also Asuka's character traits LOL. She herself might be autistic too. She can't seem to really empahize with anyone.

StarSwoardsman said:

What guy? Energetic is a woman.'

And, I don't find you fun to talk to which is why I stopped. You are too myopic for me to debate with you. She's a lot nicer than me so she'll be patient with you. But, you bored me to quickly. You can work on that though.

Energetic-Nova said:



Ask anyone in the autistic community. If anything, we feel too much. We feel so much we become numb again. Outbursts come from frustration and people misunderstanding all the time or treating us bad.

Autistic community always identifies with either Rei, Shinji, or Kaworu. I was misdiagnosed with bipolar for a LONG time. I have Autism and ADHD with Tourettes.

bitchassdarius said:

you disengaged because you couldn't properly explain yourself so you resorted to textbook definitions, which is the most mundane way to argue. then you sat there lapping up energetic's work, effectively engaging in the same debate without inserting your ego into it. call me whatever you want, at least i'm not rhetorically vapid

StarSwoardsman said:

Whatever makes you feel better man. I've had some good discussions with people who don't agree with me on here and you are not one of them. Wisdom is a factor though.

NihilisticLoner said:
Miyazaki said it best. It's incredibly short:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/131872-Hayao-Miyazaki-Anime-Suffers-Because-the-Industry-is-Full-of-Otaku

I can tell that 99% of the anime I've seen, none of the characters were created on the basis of the author observing actual people, but rather, the basis has always been what everyone else has done.



>Drama anime
>Subtle

What?