| I'm sure this has been suggested already, but I couldn't find it, so posting again. I'd like to suggest that the DB be expanded to include all anime, and not just limit it to those made IN Japan or whatever the very limited rules are today. I mean if the source material is Japanese and there is a professional dub of it in Japanese, why not include it and if you want to tag it however to identify it as something else...go for it. Example - the new Castlevania Netflix series should be included. Whether it was made on Japanese soil or not, is irrelevant, it is without a doubt an anime. Please note...I'm not arguing what the current rules are. I already get it...I'm stating that I think the current rules are close-minded and need to change so we can better support the anime community...regardless of where someone was able to get funding or find someone willing to create these works. At the end of the day, I could care less if Bob that produced the anime is from China, Japan, US, or Zimbabwe......if he is able to continue one of my favorite series, or bring it to the screen...I want to support him and help get the word out so his work is a success and he continues to create series I love. |
KinetaJan 28, 2018 12:23 PM
This thread is not to argue your definition of anime (by that right the chinese ones on here would be removed). This is a suggestion thread with the purpose of SUGGESTING that the DB be expanded to include animations by non-Japanese individuals. If you don't care about knowing about anything made outside Japan...great. Noted, and thank you. |
Stacycmc said: by that right the chinese ones on here would be removed I wouldn't mind if chinese ones would be removed. Stacycmc said: If you don't care about knowing about anything made outside Japan...great. Noted, and thank you. It's not like that. I just don't want them here. |
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I've watched a few chinese ones and they were very good, some others not so much....I don't see why they can't just be tagged to show region or something along those lines so if someone ONLY wants to see shows made on Japanese soil for some reason, they can.... meanwhile those of us that don't care where it was made, just care if it's good or not can find it and have info on it. |
Stacycmc said: I've watched a few chinese ones and they were very good, some others not so much....I don't see why they can't just be tagged to show region or something along those lines so if someone ONLY wants to see shows made on Japanese soil for some reason, they can.... meanwhile those of us that don't care where it was made, just care if it's good or not can find it and have info on it. Then you might as well just go and make your list on kitsu. It has shows from other countries, like Avatar and Wakfu. I watch animated series that weren't made in Japan too, I just don't want them HERE |
ModelCitizenJan 24, 2018 11:45 AM
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| What I'd like is one singular place to look through all anime (even those not made in Japan), so I can support and watch them. It's too hard to try to track anime on different sites... It's wonderful to be able to see ratings from users familiar with anime, track your wish list, watched, etc... from one location. If they had tags, so they could easily be filtered or differentiated...I see it as a win for all. Want only japanese...great hit the japanese filter...done. Want to see all anime, dont filter, or filter to all or something. It literally benefits all and supports the industry.... So that's why I want it here. I see no reason why this site has to be narrow as to say Japan only, but then has it's own large gray area where some Chinese and others can filter through, but when you get to one made in America, even though they hire legit Japanese voice actors to do the dub'd version, still can't be on there. Just makes no sense to me....so I would like them to expand it. |
Mkim said: I really don't see how this "support the anime community" or "benefits the industry" It helps the community because it makes it more widely known and accessible.... Example... I wouldn't have watched half the shows I have today if they had NOT been in the DB...so I could check them out, see reviews, etc... A LOT of people use this to find new shows...if its' not here it may easily be overlooked or something. The more people that watches the shows the more likely they will make more...it's a pretty simple concept. I just don't understand why anyone would be opposed, as long as they did it right, you could go on with your lives just as you do today and ignore whatever it is that you want to ignore (such as all anime made outside Japan if you so desired), but if you were interested in watching something just because it's good, having them listed here would provide more info and visibility, making it more likely to end up in someone's watch list. |
| I mean, the only 'anime' worth a damn not on MAL is Avatar the Last Airbender. Let's be real. |
| might as well just bring all western cartoons, lol in fact I would say even chinese anime being in here is quite stupid but whatever really, close enough |
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| I am truly amazed at how closed minded people can be.... I mean just wow. Not like anyone is making you watch or view items...they could be filtered out with the inclusion of a simple tag or something... And the definition that says anime has to be made in Japan...oh wait, Asia, oh wait just East Asia...or maybe if we exclude China..no wait it's included... Blah, blah.....in other words, whatever definition someone wants to pull out of their ass to be restrictive and suit their own opinion at the time. Anyway....just insane. Makes zero sense. Oh well, be what it may, my suggestion still is the same....I'd like them added. |
| quoting what @Smpavement said in another thread. Smpavement said: Lol you just proved yourself wrong. MAL clearly states that anime isn’t a style, it’s a geographic denotation. Anyone can copy a style. If an American makes teriyaki, it’s still Japanese food. If a European paints a Japanese water color, it’s still a Japanese watercolor because those things are styles. |
| I don't get the "I'm against it bit" makes zero sense to me since it's a win for everyone. Perhaps you don't care for anime from certain regions, FINE...filter them out. The point is MAL is in the stone age here, and needs to update their restrictions and offer a complete listing of anime... And don't argue that OMG, but then Spongebob will be on here, as that's just a dumb argument. Other sites seem to have no issues figuring out WTF an anime is so why the hell should it be such a horrific issue here? Go to Netflix, select the Anime category...and what do you find? Anime...including Castlevania and RWBY..... Both are listed in KissAnime...and guess what's not? YES....that's right, SpongeBob's not. They must be geniuses to figure that out right? Go to Kitsu and yep, you guessed it...both RWBY and Castlevania are listed on their site. The mindset and rules on MAL though are just ridiculous...we need to move on and understand that it's 2018 and whether Bob the MAL rule maker likes it or not, anime is being made all over, not just in Japan. It's fine to still prefer Japanese anime....but don't block all other anime just because....that's ridiculous. Cladocera said: The Anime DB Guidelines didn't state the definition of anime or mention anything about Asia or East Asia or whatever you've said. None of the DB mods is pulling anything out of their ass either. The Guidelines is there, saying what will be included and what won't, maybe doing a little reseach before claiming such things will help. About the expanding thing, I'm againts it and would want to write the reasons why it shouldn't or won't be implemented, but well that's your suggestion so I won't say anything much. And...btw, the reason I posted here is because I don't need to read through all the crazy rules...I've already seen their responses on why Castlevania wont' be added to the MAL, and it's because it's not Japanese enough.... If it were made on Japanese soil, it'd be perfectly fine to include it though, which is ridiculous and why I posted this suggestion. |
StacycmcJan 25, 2018 9:08 PM
| Animation from Japan is anime, from China it's donghua, from Korea it's aeni, and from the United States (as well as other English speaking countries) it's cartoon. This is myanimelist, not mycartoonlist. If you want to add things like Avatar and Cory in the House to your list you can go to kitsu. Just remember that despite MAL's many weird rules and the fact that they generally don't care if something was doujinshi, they care a lot about where the animation was made and so for all of the hundreds of amateur Japanese animated productions we have on MAL we will never see a French, Mexican, Finnish, or American animation on the database unless they made it in collaboration with Japan, China, or South Korea. |
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Stacycmc said: And...btw, the reason I posted here is because I don't need to read through all the crazy rules...I've already seen their responses on why Castlevania wont' be added to the MAL, and it's because it's not Japanese enough.... If it were made on Japanese soil, it'd be perfectly fine to include it though, which is ridiculous and why I posted this suggestion. You posted this suggestion despite knowing full well on how MAL stands on this topic? Wut. Your suggestion is obviously going to be a "not happening." I don't see the point of your thread. |
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| If I may quote Pullman from the same thread EGOIST quoted from: Pullman said: No because if you add one american production you will have to add them all to remain consistent which is one of the main priorities of any DB. And adding all the american animation out there surpasses the capacity of the staff and defeats the purpose of this site. You can't use vague, subjective feelings like 'I feel this is an anime' or 'it reminds me of anime' as criteria for whether something can enter a DB or not. Databases need strict, objective criteria so they can be applied without doubt and having to discuss every single addition until a consensus is reached. Geographical restrictions are one of the easiest-to-follow criteria and therefore very efficient. @Stacycmc I don't have a problem with your definition of anime (I disagree with it, but that doesn't mean I have a problem with it), but the database needs easy-to-follow criteria like Pullman said. Just because it looks like anime or is based on Japanese source material does not make something anime, particularly by the definition that MAL is using. I don't consider it closed-minded to have a more rigid definition of what makes anime. That's like saying that people are closed-minded for not classifying birds as mammals because they are warm-blooded and have hair-like stuff as well. No one said mammals are better than birds; just that they are two different things. Being closed-minded would mean that someone dislikes an animation just because it isn't Japanese, NOT simply keeping a rigid definition. Besides, to reiterate Pullman, adding so many titles will surpass the capacity of staff. There are a lot of suggestions that come through that are actually great suggestions, but the staff simply can't handle a job that big (at least at this time). They already have their hands full keeping up with the Japanese anime (and Chinese and Korean? I'm whatever about those). Consider that there isn't unlimited manpower, and that searching out all of these "non-Japanese anime" would take a lot of time, along with building their pages and keeping them up to date. |
| I hate chinesse animes, especially after i started watching " Oseam " and i was like am i hearing well or what, what is with this retarded voice acting and than booom they called cat ( in japanesse neko ) mao i noticed it... Don't even want to talk about animation itself... |
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Tyrel said: You posted this suggestion despite knowing full well on how MAL stands on this topic? Wut. Your suggestion is obviously going to be a "not happening." I don't see the point of your thread. Are you really a mod here? LOL......really??? The point of a suggestion thread is CERTAINLY so that consideration can be made to change or add something to the site. May not work that way NOW...but that's why someone makes a suggestion, so it can work differently tomorrow. LOL....geesh. zombie_pegasus said: we will never see a French, Mexican, Finnish, or American animation on the database unless they made it in collaboration with Japan, China, or South Korea. And that's incorrect as well, as the current policy is MUCH more limited that just "collaboration" with Japan... MUCH.... IntoOpenWaters said: If I may quote Pullman from the same thread EGOIST quoted from: Pullman said: No because if you add one american production you will have to add them all to remain consistent which is one of the main priorities of any DB. And adding all the american animation out there surpasses the capacity of the staff and defeats the purpose of this site. You can't use vague, subjective feelings like 'I feel this is an anime' or 'it reminds me of anime' as criteria for whether something can enter a DB or not. Databases need strict, objective criteria so they can be applied without doubt and having to discuss every single addition until a consensus is reached. Geographical restrictions are one of the easiest-to-follow criteria and therefore very efficient. They already have their hands full keeping up with the Japanese anime (and Chinese and Korean? I'm whatever about those). Consider that there isn't unlimited manpower, and that searching out all of these "non-Japanese anime" would take a lot of time, along with building their pages and keeping them up to date. That's why this is based on users being able to submit entries...not just the staff. The staff has to approve yes, but if they don't like it deny it and ask for more info. They DO NOT have to go out and seek out and add material. Users are already trying to add this stuff, and they are using the same effort to deny it's entry that could be used to just include it. Besides...the simple fact that we are saying it's simply a matter of manpower and Japanese is fine, but we also give ok's for Chinese and Korean...WTF.... That right there tells me that other places make ANIME....and as someone mentioned prior yes...this is MyANIMElist......and what I'm asking to be included is anime, not cartoons....every other site seems to be able to identify that without much issue, are seems to be MAL's major hurdle in figuring that out like everyone else already has? johndoe995 said: I hate chinesse animes, especially after i started watching " Oseam " and i was like am i hearing well or what, what is with this retarded voice acting and than booom they called cat ( in japanesse neko ) mao i noticed it... Don't even want to talk about animation itself... Well to each their own, but I definitely do not support refusal to add anime because the voice acting and anime were not up to my standards, or because I have issue with another country's language or the way it sounds, LOL. As for the animation, I'd suggest you watch more Chinese anime actually, this show for example: https://myanimelist.net/anime/33926/Quanzhi_Gaoshou Is rated over an 8 by over 55k users, so clearly not everyone thinks that Chinese anime is crap. Sounds like you've just watched a few shitty ones or just have strong personal preferences, which can't be helped.... I for one have seen several (not tons or anything), but can say I'm pretty sure I've enjoyed every one of them. Cladocera said: I don't say having a bigger DB is bad, but a messier one surely is. Think about the consequences. You're complaining about Castlevania isn't in the DB while "it is without a doubt an anime" (eh, what makes it an anime exactly?), then what will you do if people complain about other things? Yeah we will use the rul... oh wait, we already removed what can draw the line from the Guidelines! Dealing with entry modifications with the current guidelines is already a pain, now you're saying we should give people more silly reason to complain? The Guildelines isn't strict for no reason you know? To me, the fact that pretty much every other anime site out there includes it as anime is good enough. If it doesn't pass MAL's initial sniff test, but the rest of the world has it figured out and categorized in with anime already, it's probably safe to just go with that. The point is this site tries to argue it has to be Japanese...period, with super strict guidelines for that. Or it's not anime. Meaning the Chinese and Korean shows need to go then right? Oh wait no??? They are ok, but this other show is not...because someone along the way just decided that? I do NOT support removal of those btw, because I think ALL anime needs to be on an "anime" database. Seems pretty logical.... I don't seem to have any trouble watching a cartoon and an anime and seeing the differences btw. I won't go as far as to say there are NONE out there that might be questionable, but you are truly talking about the rare exception and making a rule that impacts TONS of entries because someone might not know what to do with a very small handful of exceptions... Is silly.... |
StacycmcJan 26, 2018 8:24 AM
| To sum it up, MAL staff is against it, the users are divided at best, but I wouldn't think the majority would straight out support this (either don't care or against it). So case closed. |
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Cladocera said: @Stacycmc Ok, let's pass over all the trouble I mentioned. Now, how do you think the Guidelines should be, exactly? We can't just say "All the anime will be allowed" and start adding them without any clear criteria. To you, what makes a show an anime? While there's still no official definition or something that's accepted by everyone. So, let me ask you in return though...why argue things like this? Like I said, the rest of the world pretty much has this figured out...I mean Japan's even on board....LOL (and I use this example because it's another anime that they will not allow here): "The web-based series RWBY is produced using an anime art style and has been declared to be anime. In addition, the series will be released in Japan, under the label of "anime" per the Japanese definition of the term and referenced as an "American-made anime" If Japan is defining this as anime... why the hell is myanimelist so against it when they are supposed to be a database of anime??? If you are going to add chinese and korean, by some exception that someone agreed to...then other countries should be included with those exceptions, and just labeled or tagged as "non-japanese anime". Are tons of folks asking for it to be added...that's at the very least a good indicator....what about all the other anime sites, are they including it and classifying it as anime? Yeah? Ok then, what's the problem?! I'm sorry, I just don't agree with severely limiting a site because something questionable could pop up one day and to make it easy on ourselves we just want to continue to use a definition from the stone ages... |
| This point has been discussed to death already, and, as far as I've understood, MAL staff has no plans to ever include them. If there are exceptions to the rules, the exceptions should be removed. Not the other wayt around, that is, to open the flood gates and list Spongebob Squarepants and more stuff like that too. |
| Another failed attempt to add american cartoons here. We can add Spongebob here as well. |
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CondemneDio said: This point has been discussed to death already, and, as far as I've understood, MAL staff has no plans to ever include them. If there are exceptions to the rules, the exceptions should be removed. Not the other wayt around, that is, to open the flood gates and list Spongebob Squarepants and more stuff like that too. Swagernator said: Another failed attempt to add american cartoons here. We can add Spongebob here as well. Well you know what f#%@ it....if every other anime site decides to classify Sponge Bob as anime... I support it as well...but seeing as how the items we're talking about ARE classified on all the other anime sites as ANIME and Sponge Bob is NOT....guess that means that right now the point of this thread is not to have Sponge Bob included. But...if that's the only argument some of you have....LOL, then by all means.... |
| You know what OP ? MAL need to add "Weab Anime" database, for things like Castlevania and Avatar. |
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Stacycmc said: As it was recommended, you are free to leave and make your list on Kitsu. It has all the shows you want.I'm sorry, I just don't agree with severely limiting |
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Stacycmc said: well i don't trust votes and i already dropped that show once sooTyrel said: You posted this suggestion despite knowing full well on how MAL stands on this topic? Wut. Your suggestion is obviously going to be a "not happening." I don't see the point of your thread. Are you really a mod here? LOL......really??? The point of a suggestion thread is CERTAINLY so that consideration can be made to change or add something to the site. May not work that way NOW...but that's why someone makes a suggestion, so it can work differently tomorrow. LOL....geesh. zombie_pegasus said: we will never see a French, Mexican, Finnish, or American animation on the database unless they made it in collaboration with Japan, China, or South Korea. And that's incorrect as well, as the current policy is MUCH more limited that just "collaboration" with Japan... MUCH.... IntoOpenWaters said: If I may quote Pullman from the same thread EGOIST quoted from: They already have their hands full keeping up with the Japanese anime (and Chinese and Korean? I'm whatever about those). Consider that there isn't unlimited manpower, and that searching out all of these "non-Japanese anime" would take a lot of time, along with building their pages and keeping them up to date. That's why this is based on users being able to submit entries...not just the staff. The staff has to approve yes, but if they don't like it deny it and ask for more info. They DO NOT have to go out and seek out and add material. Users are already trying to add this stuff, and they are using the same effort to deny it's entry that could be used to just include it. Besides...the simple fact that we are saying it's simply a matter of manpower and Japanese is fine, but we also give ok's for Chinese and Korean...WTF.... That right there tells me that other places make ANIME....and as someone mentioned prior yes...this is MyANIMElist......and what I'm asking to be included is anime, not cartoons....every other site seems to be able to identify that without much issue, are seems to be MAL's major hurdle in figuring that out like everyone else already has? johndoe995 said: I hate chinesse animes, especially after i started watching " Oseam " and i was like am i hearing well or what, what is with this retarded voice acting and than booom they called cat ( in japanesse neko ) mao i noticed it... Don't even want to talk about animation itself... Well to each their own, but I definitely do not support refusal to add anime because the voice acting and anime were not up to my standards, or because I have issue with another country's language or the way it sounds, LOL. As for the animation, I'd suggest you watch more Chinese anime actually, this show for example: https://myanimelist.net/anime/33926/Quanzhi_Gaoshou Is rated over an 8 by over 55k users, so clearly not everyone thinks that Chinese anime is crap. Sounds like you've just watched a few shitty ones or just have strong personal preferences, which can't be helped.... I for one have seen several (not tons or anything), but can say I'm pretty sure I've enjoyed every one of them. Cladocera said: I don't say having a bigger DB is bad, but a messier one surely is. Think about the consequences. You're complaining about Castlevania isn't in the DB while "it is without a doubt an anime" (eh, what makes it an anime exactly?), then what will you do if people complain about other things? Yeah we will use the rul... oh wait, we already removed what can draw the line from the Guidelines! Dealing with entry modifications with the current guidelines is already a pain, now you're saying we should give people more silly reason to complain? The Guildelines isn't strict for no reason you know? To me, the fact that pretty much every other anime site out there includes it as anime is good enough. If it doesn't pass MAL's initial sniff test, but the rest of the world has it figured out and categorized in with anime already, it's probably safe to just go with that. The point is this site tries to argue it has to be Japanese...period, with super strict guidelines for that. Or it's not anime. Meaning the Chinese and Korean shows need to go then right? Oh wait no??? They are ok, but this other show is not...because someone along the way just decided that? I do NOT support removal of those btw, because I think ALL anime needs to be on an "anime" database. Seems pretty logical.... I don't seem to have any trouble watching a cartoon and an anime and seeing the differences btw. I won't go as far as to say there are NONE out there that might be questionable, but you are truly talking about the rare exception and making a rule that impacts TONS of entries because someone might not know what to do with a very small handful of exceptions... Is silly.... |
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Stacycmc said: CondemneDio said: This point has been discussed to death already, and, as far as I've understood, MAL staff has no plans to ever include them. If there are exceptions to the rules, the exceptions should be removed. Not the other wayt around, that is, to open the flood gates and list Spongebob Squarepants and more stuff like that too. Swagernator said: Another failed attempt to add american cartoons here. We can add Spongebob here as well. Well you know what f#%@ it....if every other anime site decides to classify Sponge Bob as anime... I support it as well...but seeing as how the items we're talking about ARE classified on all the other anime sites as ANIME and Sponge Bob is NOT....guess that means that right now the point of this thread is not to have Sponge Bob included. But...if that's the only argument some of you have....LOL, then by all means.... If you're on MAL, you go by MAL standards and rules. ez |
| I don't understand why we have Korean/Chinese animations in the DB either. And no, I don't want american cartoons here. If they were to add Avatar to the DB, they would have to add all the other american cartoons like Peppa Pig or Caillou. |
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| Just move to kitsu and the problem is solved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
Cladocera said: Asking me a question won't solve anything, you're the one with the idea, not me. ....... Did you got those sentences from here? You conveniently took them out of context for the sake of arguing. And you know what? Japanese people use the word anime for all forms of animated media. Surprise, isn't it? I'm sorry, if you love other sites so much then why don't you use them instead of talking nonsense here while your suggestion is clearly rejected? Don't conveniently misquote me because ur panties are in a wad and you think you found something similar online....I got it from Wikipedia as it talked about anime....very bottom of the definition area just before the references. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime). They also list a couple of references where the show was announced in Japan, etc... I gave an easy option for MAL to tell if it's anime...how to define it.... When in doubt are all the other sites listing it as anime? Yes...then go for it. It's easy and you don't have to think, which seems to be what we don't want to do here.....it's so much easier just to ignore everything not made in Japan or their two hand-selected exceptions. ....and to answer your last question with the obvious, I don't use the other sites because most the other sites I mentioned and "love so much" are primarily where you WATCH anime...LOL. I.e....Netflix is where you watch shows, just in case you didn't know, not where you keep a database of them. Same goes for KissAnime and CrunchyRoll... as those were all a few I mentioned either in this post or another. All these listed shows such as RBWY and Castlevania as anime....that's what I mean by the rest of the world, i.e the other sites that focus on or have categories for anime. The other site I mentioned, Kitsu...I assume is a DB, not sure I just found it this very week and was looking into it...and no worries, if it turns out to be all inclusive, I'll happily use it instead, as I for one want to know about upcoming anime... and can appreciate good anime, even if it's not made on Japanese soil. Orhunaa said: I don't understand why we have Korean/Chinese animations in the DB either. And no, I don't want american cartoons here. If they were to add Avatar to the DB, they would have to add all the other american cartoons like Peppa Pig or Caillou. If you read the above, no one is asking for all cartoons...anime...anime is what I want added with a tag that easily lets the Japan-only folks filter the rest out. But for everyone else that just cares about good anime, not limiting themselves to what piece of dirt it was produced on, then we have that option.... EGOIST said: Just move to kitsu and the problem is solved ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You should sign up to be a mod on this site.... I think you'd fit in well. Anyway, I've clearly stated my dissatisfaction with how the MAL handles this and made my suggestion. Agree or not, this is a suggestion thread, so it is what it is... Doesn't matter if something benefits everyone and broadens the site making it more complete...naturally a few will disagree just because it may inconvenience them to hit a filter before searching...that extra click is killer. Oh well....maybe the right person will listen and update it one day. |
StacycmcJan 26, 2018 9:36 PM
| It is a suggestion thread but you're not open to what the replies of this suggestion of yours abandoning all forms of reasoning or understanding because of how high you hold up to your own opinion. I mean normally in this case, you would already understand why it isn't implemented. It's actually what they said already. The DB guidelines are objective and was never subjective. Just because something "feels like" anime to you doesn't mean that it feels like anime for another. I also don't get why you have to state that japan considers Avatar, etc. as anime because they consider every animated medium as anime. Be it Avatar, Lion King, Boss Baby, Spongebob etc. Besides this site is not focused on the japanese definition of anime but rather than international definition of it which is animation made from japan. There's a reason why it's called MyAnimelist when we add other forms of animation like "cartoons" in here, then it completely defeats the sole purpose of this site. Even reading your persuasive replies as to why it should be implemented is just weak. If you're going to try and persuade a change in the DB then be more objective about it. All I see is you putting ahead your feelings on what should be added rather than it's consequences and setbacks. If you haven't read the guidelines already, these type of suggestions are automatically denied a.k.a. you won't persuade them in changing it so this is already a minor violation of the guidelines since you know full well that this has been denied a thousand times already but still post the same shit. Maybe the right OP may understand what the others have said and stop one day because the one you're reading clearly only goes as far as seeing the text rather than comprehending it. Since you don't like the rules here, then you might as well use another site. No point in staying in MAL if you don't like the way they handle things |
| Why must people try and tell the staff how to run this website? Why must people try and turn mal into IMDB? |
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EGOIST said: Besides this site is not focused on the japanese definition of anime but rather than international definition of it which is animation made from japan. If that were true, the shows I specifically called out, Castlevania and RWBY (I never mentioned AirBender btw....or Avatar...or whatever, so let's talk about how I see the words but don't read or comprehend them some more please) wouldn't be categorized as anime on the various sites I've already mentioned....I mean if it was such an internationally accepted definition and all... They wouldn't be there at all since those sites are for ANIME.... i.e. KissANIME (has both listed for example). Castelvania is found under the ANIME section of Netflix. RWBY is on Crunchyroll. Etc.... The Japan-only definition you love so much, well......there's more than Japanese anime on here..... So....there's also that.... Cladocera said: Oh, sorry for misunderstanding then. But that doesn't change anything and being rude won't help, either. You may want to look at the very top of the page: The word anime is the Japanese term for animation, which means all forms of animated media. Outside Japan, anime refers specifically to animation from Japan or as a Japanese-disseminated animation style. Two sides, eh? It only changes how you accused me of cherry picking form an article clearly against it and selecting only the phrases I wanted. I've never argued that the "origin" of anime was not Japan and so initially it obviously meant also, made in Japan...it was literally NOT made anywhere else, so of course it meant that. It is now though....hence why the "or" definition was added. My intent is not to be rude either but I tend to reply in a manner that fits with the tone of the comment I'm responding to....so goes both ways. You're suggesting MAL to use other site's rules while we already have an easier option which is in the current Guidelines. Geographic denotation (objective) or art style (subjective), which one got it easier? I'm suggesting that sometimes the easy path, is not the right path.... That just seems lazy... Besides, it's ALREADY not Japan and has someone's own exceptions added in...if you want to make an exception. Then MAKE AN EXCEPTION, or don't....include all non-Japanese areas if you want to use that objective definition...or don't. But don't tell me ONLY JAPAN as a reason why we can't include other stuff, when that already does not apply. Sure, pretty much everyone in this thread don't support the idea and you still say "a few". Yet, you keep ignoring us and haven't bring up any valid reason other than "other sites have it so MAL should as well". Go on your own, I guess. That's definitely not my only reason, if you actually read through other posts....but sure. Ignoring you....I am replying right? I just disagree...LOL, I mean you are commenting on MY SUGGESTION THREAD to expand this DB right? LOL...did you think you would come in state you disagree and I'd all of a sudden be on board and agree with you? There's a difference between ignoring and disagreeing....and I definitely disagree and have stated why I disagree with the posts in almost all my responses. And you are correct...the ones that want to come comment here are OF COURSE those that disagree, not surprised at all on that one actually.... |
StacycmcJan 26, 2018 10:44 PM
Stacycmc said: Orhunaa said: I don't understand why we have Korean/Chinese animations in the DB either. And no, I don't want american cartoons here. If they were to add Avatar to the DB, they would have to add all the other american cartoons like Peppa Pig or Caillou. If you read the above, no one is asking for all cartoons...anime...anime is what I want added with a tag that easily lets the Japan-only folks filter the rest out. But for everyone else that just cares about good anime, not limiting themselves to what piece of dirt it was produced on, then we have that option.... Then can I ask how are we going to distinguish american "anime" from american cartoon? If you can't answer this question that means you're just trying to create an exception for the 2-3 shows you want here and you must know no mod will accept that kind of reasoning. |
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| Stacycmc, I can see that you started with what you thought was a reasonable suggestion, and as more and more users replied to this thread, I think maybe you were feeling a little bit like "everyone is against me and I don't understand why". So, I want to start my post off by saying that nothing I am about to write is against you or is unsympathetic. I'm genuinely happy that you enjoy using MAL so much that you would prefer to be able to list shows you like here, rather than use other sites. And I know that most users do not understand the difficulties and complexities of keeping a database, which makes the staff/rules seem unnecessarily rigid at times. --- The DB Guidelines were released in 2009. For the 5 years prior to this, anyone had been able to add what they thought was anime/manga to the databases. As the website started up, Xinil had given moderator positions to many people who seemed interested. On the Anime DB side, this means a few Korean animations had been added, US versions of anime series (e.g. DBZ had two entries), along with many 80s American films which had their animation outsourced to Japan (what Japan is basically doing now with Korea/China); for example, The Last Unicorn. Only Avatar: The Last Airbender, the RWBY of the time, was clearly listed by Xinil in the FAQ as "not anime". Meanwhile, on the Manga DB side, the types had been coded as "Manga, One-Shot, Doujinshi, Manhwa, Manhua, OEL (Original English Language)". In the mid-to-late 2000s, the manga-licensing companies in NA and Europe were quickly churning out "manga-like" comics, with varying degrees of similarity to Japanese manga. Tokyopop's German division had a quite a few series like this, and many of these (along with other Original Foreign Language series) had made their way into the DB under the OEL type. So, in 2009, the DB moderators and I at that time had our work cut out for us: we had two messy databases that we could not easily request code-changes for. Crave/Xinil were making minimal changes to the website. We had to deal with what we were dealt. While we wanted the Anime DB Guidelines to be written to only allow for Japanese productions for the Japanese market, Korean and Chinese comics already had a strong foothold in the manga reading community, and were coded as manga types into MAL. Thus, we felt that it was more important to have the databases matched to each other, rather than one side allowing Korean/Chinese works and the other not. This is why we allow Korean/Chinese animation to this day: to complement the Manga DB. OFL titles listed as OEL we removed immediately. OEL we wanted to remove and deny all submissions for, even though we could not get code changes; however, at the behest of multiple staff and community members (many of which who were hoping to become OEL authors themselves), we attempted to keep it for one year. And it is because of our problems with OEL that I know the complexities of a subjective-based "style" definition very well. Art is already one very subjective aspect of the style debate. Look at the aforementioned The Last Unicorn. If you only saw images of the unicorn (and her female form) and someone told you "that's anime", you might think "hey yeah, that does look similar to some anime I know." Now if you only saw images of the men and someone told you "that's not anime", you'd probably think "yeah, that doesn't look anything like anime." What do you do if 50% looks like anime and 50% doesn't? What if I think it looks like anime and you don't? But the style problem doesn't end at art. You have narrative styles. Perspective. Cultural references. Character traits. Early anime dubs, like Pokemon for example, are now infamous for trying to wipe these things out to appeal more to an American audience: replacing onigiri with sandwiches, etc. While these obvious changes no longer happen, other localizations do still happen today. For example, in a localized VN I played recently, the act of writing New Years greeting cards was changed to sending Christmas cards. Or the subtle nuances in language of main characters is changed so an American teen can identify more with the character. Sometimes enormous amounts of slang are added, because most North American teens speak in quite awful, colloquial English. Similarly, it works in the same way when Japanese works take place in countries outside Japan (e.g. France, Germany, other worlds); the creators usually cannot help but inject some of Japanese culture into the works. Part of this is because it's who they are on an unconscious level from their environment, and the other part of this is because of the market they are creating for. This is why MAL rules are not only based on creation, but also market. When American series are made in "manga-style" for an American market, the same influence happens. Some works just "look" visually like manga, but the story, characters, narration, etc are all like an American graphic novel. Am I saying these American series are "worse" or less entertaining? No. I'm saying that when you start to try and create rules based on "style", all of these factors suddenly come into play. So what did we do with OEL for that year? We tried to define guidelines based on: which company created it (e.g. TokyoPop) and whether they were marketing it as "Manga" on their website. However, we discovered with time that even the companies weren't consistent with what they marketed as "Manga". Some series were very blatantly graphic novels, barely with any manga "style" to them at all. So then what were we supposed to do? Write complicated guidelines where we need to rate each OEL series /10 in how much it "felt" like manga in story, design, imagery, etc? Then have users argue with us about why X was included but Y wasn't? So we removed OEL in 2010. And the current debates over RWBY and Castlevania, etc, are no different to me than the situation we were in with OEL. KissAnime includes these series on their website because they are an illegal streaming site trying to make money off of ads by serving as much illegal content to you as they can. They aren't going to quibble about what's anime or not. Netflix is doing exactly what Tokyopop and the other manga publishers did a decade ago: they are creating original content and marketing it as anime because "Anime" is a buzzword and they want your money. Kitsu stole MAL's databases and then tried to tack US "anime-style" series onto it so they could use it as another "we're better than MAL, come to us!" selling point to make money. ANN and AnimePlanet pick and choose between which series they have: ANN has RWBY but AP doesn't, AP has Neo Yokio but ANN doesn't. Neither have Avatar. Both have Castlevania. I'm not sure what rules they're using for inclusion. AniDB has none of these series. MAL's DB guidelines are decided by MAL's DB staff. We are volunteers; we aren't trying to put your money in our pockets. We created the guidelines because we're passionate about having a complete and accurate database that people who are also passionate about anime and manga can use. We want users to be confident that they know what will be included and what will not. We want strictly defined rules so entries are not approved/denied based on subjective opinion. For this reason, "popularity" will also never be a guideline for a series' inclusion or exclusion either. In summary:
Long post, but I hope this explains things more clearly. |
KinetaJan 27, 2018 9:54 AM
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