One Piece Chapter 888 Discussion

NerfHerderEX said:
Nobody wants to acknowledge it, but those talking cannonballs are slowly drowning to death as they sink to the bottom of the sea...

daime17 said:
Ok next, Carrot will join SWP and Chopper will make a medicine that makes minks hallucinate in seeing the full moon.

OOOORRRRRRR

Enel went down from the Moon to Zou caring moon stones and once minks touch it they transform.

DragonFireKing said:
Carrot has to join the crew now. Also I think this chapter might be hinting at a weakness for Big Mom. As Perospero noted she does look a little thinner maybe if she goes on her rampages too long she eventually waste away to nothing.

TrashDax said:
I love how Carrot lampshaded how useless she was up to now.

Kja95 said:
Is it going to be a Break or not for the rest of the year ????

jal90 said:
This chapter actually had a lot of stuff to think about. What is Luffy doing? He is not using his G4 form and according to Katakuri he acts erratic... I'd say he's trying to figure out a way to win and proving Katakuri's haki in the meanwhile. That could be something.

jal90 said:

The whole thing about Big Mom losing her powers during the rage fit was convenient but sort of logical and expected, and I'm very intrigued about her slimmed down form, if it will affect her in some way.

jal90 said:

But the highlight was Carrot. The transformation was great, and actually very in character: it looked like one of her drawings, and in parallel with her own words and growth in the arc, a more mature form. Props to Oda for not oversexualizing her full moon form by the way, that will be Toei's job. It's interesting that this power-up fits her so well aesthetically, thematically and in terms of power. Makes me believe that every mink will have a different transformationaccording to their feats or the stuff they identify with. Looking forward to it.

jal90 said:

This chapter did a lot to push Carrot as a potential crewmate, not only because of the power-up and its amazing display but also due to everything that happens with her before. From her "I promise I'll be useful" phrase that holds a deeper meaning when you realize that the first thing Carrot told Pedro when she snuck aboard the Sunny was that she wouldn't be a nuisance, to her talk about Pedro where it is obvious how much she adores him and how much of an example and a motivational boost he is for her. Oda keeps expanding the character and making sense of these little moments and reactions he's given her through the arc. This chapter is the culmination of Pedro's death event, and is the definitive proof that Carrot has grown in the arc, and that she is ready to carry his will. The symbolic meaning that having a grown-up, more confident-looking version of herself in full moon mode implies only further emphasizes this.

The power-up may be temporary, but everything that surrounds it, from her choice of words, to her decision, to the form itself further solidifies her own character arc and defines her progression and potential. At this point, if we count Jinbe as a crewmate (I do), Carrot is simply the most solid unconfirmed nakama candidate the series has ever had. It's crazy how much she fits in every scheme.

Isterio said:


You bring up some interesting points, but here is my retort.
Luffy isn´t the smartest character and Oda usually outright tells us his simple minded intetions.Luffy claimed how his plan is to wear out Katakuri´s future vision because everything including Haki is limited. Obviously when the tactic is to exhaust the enemy the smartes choice not to assert ones own abilities to store fuel. Furthermore, last chapter he exlaimed his intention for the awakening of his own future vision.
Two plans both openly communicated, there´s nothing to think about.

Isterio said:


It might as well be just a comedic gimmick, like Oda does with all of his charcters. I don´t want to be dismissive of the possibilities, but the One Piece fandom has the tendency to come up with exciting ideas and conclusions to every red herring Oda sets up no matter how miniscule. Maybe you´re onto something but 90% it´s just a joke.

Isterio said:


I agree with anything but the bold part.
Carrot is comparetively a major character, at least for this arc.
Carrot as everyone at this point mentioned is probably going to become a Strawhat crewmember. For a multitude of reasons,I rather not elaborate right now. We agree on most anyway. This puts her in a special position. I assume, that some of the minks, like the two leaders and Wanda will have somewhat unique transformations, If we get to see them , but considering that Oda has only a limited timespan he can elaborate on the Manga I don´t see him putting out hundreds of unique transformations.
This has been actually a complaint about awakening by a few people.
People consider it pretty boring if every paramecia awakening consists of manipulating the environment and every Zoan awakening consists of increased stamina & regeneration. But this seems to be the case and I don´t see it being any different for the "Su Long" transformation.

An example against my claim would be this panel:
One of my favorite Oda artworks. The detail is magnificent and each of the 9 Mermaids has a different design. However the saying "exceptions confirm the rule" exists for a reason. And the reason why this artwork is so good is because Oda doesn´t draw something like this too often. Imo at best we could expect a groupshot with the prominent minks and everyone else will follow a theme, like all dog minks get the same features added, while all cat minks get the same upgrade and so on.

Isterio said:
You make a few good points, but many others including me considered Carrot the moment she snuck on the ship a future crewmember.

Isterio said:
1. She fullfills a diversity quota.
2. She is a female the crew is lacking, Oda can use her for fanservice (not just sexual) in a multitude of ways.
3. She´s a competent fighter, something that was a requirement for the New World.
4. She has a dream.
5.She can fullfill a profession on the ship as a scout since her ability in that regard is superior compared to everyone elses.
6.She doesn´t have a sad past, but only the guys had their sad backstory revealed before joining the crew. The girls had the opposite treatment.
Both Nami and Robin were crewmembers and then got an arc centered around their cruel pasts. Pedro dying doesn´t have to fullfill that purpose to keep with the Strawhat theme. It wouldn´t anyway since it´s not a flashback. Every other Strawhat except Luffy had their Trauma in flashbackland.

Isterio said:
Ever since Oda included her in the arc, he made it consistently clear that he enjoys that character and gave her prominence. Unlike the Dressrosa thirst for a new crewmember Carrot was always alluded to join them. It´s just at the point where it´s basicly confirmed.

Isterio said:
I can actually see the discussion going like this:
C:Luffy may I join your crew, I want to see the world?
L: Why aren´t you already a member?

*Banquet scene*

jal90 said:


4. Two dreams, actually. She wants to explore the world beyond Zou (calling it a Wonderland fully emphasizes her enthusiasm) and, specially after this chapter, she is clearly going to take over Pedro's dream to see the dawn of the mink tribe.

5. Pretty much. In the ship she has been consistently acting as a lookout. This jobs seems fit for her and has been shown a damn lot throughout. I'd also like to point at something tangential but related to this: one of the reasons why we know so much about Carrot's role as a lookout because Oda is devoting a lot of time this arc to showing the crew performing in the ship. It's one of my favorite things of WCI.

6. This is tricky. Carrot does have a sad event that we know of and that she has learned and been inspired from. It just happened hours ago. That's a quite unique sort of past for One Piece standards but it's a past either way and it has shown effects in her personality. With that I'm not saying that she won't have a sad flashback as a kid, because I can think of a few possible storylines and for instance this chapter has hinted a lot at her relationship with Pedro and how it could be further explored. However if it for some reason doesn't happen and Carrot has lived a happy or uneventful childhood, that wouldn't affect her chances at all.

I'd add a few points here that I think help the narrative of her becoming a crewmember:

7. She is in good terms with everybody in the crew and has had distinct interactions with various of them.

8. Character quirks. Carrot has many that make her a lot of fun and a lot of them may have connections to personality traits that have yet to see treated in depth. I remember reading that her drawing style matched very well her own attitude towards the world (a Wonderland!). She is also prone to complimenting people and being nice which could also lead to some potential focus on why she seems to focus so much in making a good impression, likely further emphasizing on why she pronounced that phrase I mentioned earlier: "I promise I'll be useful". This is speculation at this point but I think it makes sense.

9. Character growth. Undeniable at this point. This is where this chapter contributed the most in my opinion. Not to mention that the whole arc has meant development for her in every single scene, either purely from first experience or due to the sudden later events.


Yep, that's exactly what I meant. Aside from the SHs themselves we've had tons of potential characters who somehow had a nakama vibe, that they could fit in the ship. But none in the level of Carrot. She has consistently brought a scenario where being in the crew is plain and simply the best fit, because no matter what I factor in she has zero real drawbacks and a lot of potential due to her youth and lack of experience, and the dynamic and progressive nature of the character.


That would be so cute and straightforward. I hope it goes like that.

ashfrliebert said:
...

kleinerwolf said:
Can somebody think of Chooper and his paper in the crew, before adding Carrot to the equation. and even now how hard is for Oda adding new Straw Hats, that are suppouse to be main characters. (this arc dont have Zoro, Usopp, Niko and Franky half of the members, and the history is a mess, with people asking to end the fights)

I doubth that even in the end of these 2 arcs Gimbei is gonna still in the Straw Hat main group.

jal90 said:

It's a reasonable doubt when the group becomes larger but I dunno... it is still doable. How many characters with individual storylines and motivations do you have in this arc alone? How many do you expect from Wano with the Straw Hats, the samurai trio and Momonosuke, the minks, the Heart Pirates, the other Supernova, Kaido, the Shogun, Marco and other possible factors (Weevil)? People keep saying that Oda wouldn't be able to focus on a larger crew but he keeps trying these big narratives with multiple individuals factoring in.

jal90 said:

There is a problem with Carrot when this analysis is brought, which is, fundamentally, her own personality and background. When she joined the rescue team she did for her own purposes of finding exciting adventure and knowing about the world beyond Zou. What I mean with it is that her goals as they were stated did not have a chance to define the course of the events. They are personal, and passive.

How do you insert a character like this in the narrative? You give her some focus, but in the end you can't make the storyline about her, because it misses the point of portraying her as somebody who observes, experiences and learns. There has been plenty of that secondary focus in the arc, but you can't make entire chapters about this because it does not advance the story.

I am not claiming either way that she did not need to stand out at some point, but the reasons why she didn't so far are very understandable and have a context, and if we bring comparisons I think we have to take them into account because a lot of this is a huge part of what makes her distinct as a character with a position in the narrative that hasn't had a clear parallel in One Piece, because character conflicts in this show are usually conceived to be proactive (or cause some larger scale events) and not personal and passive. Take into account that the two chapters that have more heavily focused on her as an individual character (878 and 888) come after an event that involves her in a deep emotional level, therefore affecting her and becoming a big catalyst of a more active growth and reaction to her environment. I would expect a lot more primary focus from now on, but that's something we still need to see.

kleinerwolf said:

I doubth that even in the end of these 2 arcs Gimbei is gonna still in the Straw Hat main group.

ashfrliebert said:
I don't think there are any *rules* to be immediately followed, not exactly..

Robin broke patterns. Jinbe broke patterns. Brook broke patterns. It's just, usually, the thing that always separated every crewmate from the non-crewmate *was* that immediate conflict, they're introduced and given way more focus than everybody else that's not the main character or main antagonist. Brook lost against Ryuma and Zoro eventually was the one who took the victory, but..he still had that immediate conflict that he faced alone. It was also, after all, Brook who found the Zombies salt weakness, too.

The point wasn't that there is a pattern, the point is that Robin was, similarly to Carrot, an observant character, but she still contributed to much bigger moments than Carrot from the getgo. Robin was passive *most of the time*, but she went from inaction to action when Luffy was dying in Alabasta, and Robin made a choice that shifted the entire direction of the arc. She was still a passive and observant character, but she made a rather massive contribution.

*Action*, in this case, isn't necessarily a pattern or rule, it's *distinguishment*. Saving Luffy, laughing on the sidelines at Mizu Luffy, lying about the information on the ponelglpyh to Crocodile.

She didn't really help Crocodile much at all. What separated Robin from her Baroque Work comrades was, in fact, her *lack* of action. Inaction and observation was her distuingishment.

Robin's inaction made a difference because she was on the antagonists side.
Carrot hasn't really had a *moment* where her observations made a huge difference. Beyond sinking the chapter this chapter, which..just seems so much smaller than Robin like..helping defeat the main antagonist after 12 volumes of buildup.

That being said though, I think Franky kinda became more adjustable and comfy for me when he helped defeat CP9 with the straw-hats. As odd and surprising as it was for the non-Paulie guy to become the shipmate instead of, what inititally appeared to be a side antagonist. He was there for the *big moment*.

ashfrliebert said:
I don't think there are any *rules* to be immediately followed, not exactly..

Robin broke patterns. Jinbe broke patterns. Brook broke patterns. It's just, usually, the thing that always separated every crewmate from the non-crewmate *was* that immediate conflict, they're introduced and given way more focus than everybody else that's not the main character or main antagonist. Brook lost against Ryuma and Zoro eventually was the one who took the victory, but..he still had that immediate conflict that he faced alone. It was also, after all, Brook who found the Zombies salt weakness, too.

ashfrliebert said:
The point wasn't that there is a pattern, the point is that Robin was, similarly to Carrot, an observant character, but she still contributed to much bigger moments than Carrot from the getgo. Robin was passive *most of the time*, but she went from inaction to action when Luffy was dying in Alabasta, and Robin made a choice that shifted the entire direction of the arc. She was still a passive and observant character, but she made a rather massive contribution.

ashfrliebert said:
*Action*, in this case, isn't necessarily a pattern or rule, it's *distinguishment*. Saving Luffy, laughing on the sidelines at Mizu Luffy, lying about the information on the ponelglpyh to Crocodile.

ashfrliebert said:
She didn't really help Crocodile much at all. What separated Robin from her Baroque Work comrades was, in fact, her *lack* of action. Inaction and observation was her distuingishment.

ashfrliebert said:
Robin's inaction made a difference because she was on the antagonists side.
Carrot hasn't really had a *moment* where her observations made a huge difference. Beyond sinking the chapter this chapter, which..just seems so much smaller than Robin like..helping defeat the main antagonist after 12 volumes of buildup.

kleinerwolf said:
Can somebody think of Chooper and his paper in the crew, before adding Carrot to the equation. and even now how hard is for Oda adding new Straw Hats, that are suppouse to be main characters. (this arc dont have Zoro, Usopp, Niko and Franky half of the members, and the history is a mess, with people asking to end the fights)

I doubth that even in the end of these 2 arcs Gimbei is gonna still in the Straw Hat main group.

And yet that conflict was finished way before the arc reached its climax. Even him finding out about the zombies' salt weakness didn't hold a chance against Oars and Moria.

You are mixing stuff that is very radically different here, both passive and active moments. If you count "laughing on the sidelines at Mizu Luffy" you may as well count Carrot's thoughts in awe when she hears Chiffon's story, her entire Wonderland speech for that matter or the many reactions she's had through the arc to stuff that happens.

But I agree with this. Still:

As said, Carrot is NOT defined by her inaction. When Reiju boarded the ship she intended to attack, whenever the Straw Hats have tried to pull a fight she has been the first, and whenever a plan has been set she has followed it enthusiastically. It's not in her character to stay inactive and uninvolved with the events. That is a huge difference of focus from Robin's case. You can say that she is somewhat observant as well but the balance of observant and active Carrot is completely different from the balance of observant and active Robin. It's that distinction what I aim for when I say that Carrot doesn't have a clear precedent in the manga.

Heck, Robin hasn't had a moment where her observations made a huge difference in the course of the events. Not that I expect observations to be what drives the action either way, because by definition they can't. It was her curiosity and her own individual motivations what brought her to do stuff that was plot relevant and beneficial to Luffy, not her observant nature. Robin's inaction was not what made a difference: she did was she was told to do by Crocodile. It's her defying Crocodile's decisions in some events and instances what made the difference.

Also, I didn't pay attention to that point in the above quote, but Carrot doing something useful and plot relevant is not exactly one of the main reasons why I think her nakamization is clearer after this chapter. Carrot has done useful stuff through the arc, this is not the main difference that this chapter makes. There seems to be a trend to forget or downplay that basically her tag team with Chopper created one of the most essential advantages to the rescue team and that its consequences are still relevant at this point of the arc. What her portrayal in this chapter adds rather than "usefulness" is a psychological and individualized focus. I say that because, while Robin's actions to save Luffy were certainly plot relevant, it was her ambiguous motivations to do so what brought the chance of nakamization and made it plausible (and even then, due to the lack of focus it needed further growth to feel organic and fully understandable). In that sense Carrot's moment is more significant so far and has more clear connections, regardless of how wholly useful the end result of her actions is.

Isterio said:
@ashfrliebert

As you point out yourself, there are no real "rules" but rather guidelines the Strawhats joining process defines. If we were to criticically examine each Strawhat we could distinguish the unique trait of their circumstances that lead to their allignment, while dismissing the common ones and conclude that they´re each unique without any relation to the others who in contrast share all the commonalities.

I remember a guy who wanted to distinguiish Zorro from the rest of Luffy´s crew and he noted the following differences to distance him from the other Strawhats as you did here with Robin.

1. Zorro was the only Strawhat that didn´t join Luffy out of impression for his skills, but because of blackmail&bribery putting them comparetively on an equal position.While he was saved by Luffy from danger like all the Strawhats in one way or the other, he was the only one to immediately repay the debt.

2.Connecting to the argument of not being impressed. Zorro joined an alliance of convenience that became a loyalty based comradery through shared experiences, fueled by his own pride.
While every other member once officially joined, immediately was loyal due their treatment as family by Luffy and the debt they owed him or in the case of Brook& Robin, the crew.
An argument used to undermine the slower progression of Zorro´s loyality to Luffy was the Whisky Peek scuffle the two had, where they attacked each other supposedly with genuine killing intent.

3.Because Zorro was the first member to join Luffy´s crew an assumption has grown among the community, which is that Zorro always has too approve of a member before he joins officially.

4. Zorro was the only member to be sought after by Luffy specifically before his introduction.

... the list goes on, but I can´t remember his other arguments.

Anyway the point I wanted to make is. You can make any shoe fit if you twist and turn enough.
The same applies to carrot and wether or not you agree that she can join now or think that she requires still development is opinion. Allegedly you acknowledge that her potential is higher than any other candidate before, after brook, aside from Jinbe, who had a clearcut confirmation from FI onwards.

Like I mentioned above Carrot fits perfectly the pattern of female Strawhat member. Joining unofficially, proving herself before her backstory as valueable, aftwerwards introducing her backstory, her motivations, saving her and then have her officially join.
It happened to both girls like that and Vivi who is a honorary member had the same treatment.
Even more pattern arise if we were to keep Vivi in the equation. All 3 of them were introduced as "villains", despite never really harming the crew and redeeming themselves individually.

jal90 said:
I wouldn't say that this is Jinbe's arc, though, not more than Carrot's at the very least who has undergone some potentially major character growth throughout. There is nothing particularly dynamic or challenging in the exploration of his character here and if anything I would say Whole Cake is a comparatively small part of his big character arc that has been narrated since Impel Down.

Isterio said:


The plotline with the "Wheel of death" he was about to spin was a major downer for me and one of the reasons I don´t trust Oda anymore, with a particular distaste for the arc.
Not only was a conflict setup that he avoided with zero consequences, but it was handled off screen with quite the lazy solution. The rules were self explanatory. Spin the wheel lose an arbitrary amount of legs,arms,heads or years you pay for with your crew,

A few panels with Jinbe contemplating about his own life and that of his crew and than offering only his own , which with Luffy by his side, would have been far more impactful.
In the end, what he did was cool, but there was no requirement to do it next to Luffy and having him consider his crew next to the wheel would have made it less fillery.

jal90 said:

I can certainly agree with that. It was a cool character moment, but being off-paneled it was deprived of its emotional significance. I don't have a problem with the idea, though, particularly because this idea of being able to avoid Big Mom's wheel by standing up and overcome your fear fits well with the quirk of the yonkou and particularly her routine of trick-or-treating. I found it a little bit forced that BM was just fine with this result, though. She has been shown as rather deceitful and quite into scheming, I am surprised that she takes this challenge so seriously. But so did she in Pedro's flashback so I guess it's part of her character as well.