Re:ZERO -Starting Life in Another World- (light novel)
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| Ooh that was intense. |
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Yuzuryn said: Fai I don't mean to keep combatting you, but this was the first time Subaru ever saw Emilia actually getting disrespected. She told him before in the first loop that elves aren't looked on in a good light and he noted this but it's different from actually hearing about discrimination than seeing it. Tbh I only disagree with a few of your points, because the majority of your logic is sound so I hope I'm not coming across as pretentious or anything. Just to me I can see this stuff making sense within Subaru's character. We've seen Subaru before but to me this is his "ugly" side. You know, the asshole side of you that everyone has Fai's doing his usual routine taking things out of context and conveniently disregarding the reasons he should know why a character acts as they do. This why half thread argues with him and apparently no different on Fate boards either. |
Iron_MawJun 27, 2016 11:44 AM
Thevsamovies said: Fai said: Because gratitude is not a reward and good nice guy behavior is not a debt to be repaid. You can't expect others to feel indebted to you just because you are being NICE. You can't expect women to want to repay you just because you put them on pedestal. Subaru's behavior is absolutely not okay and borders between a creepy stalker and abusive wannabe MRA nice guy. No they don't have to be eternally grateful, head over heels respectful to him all the time, but they can at least try to understand him rather than publicly humiliate him. Subaru only stood up for emilia in the first place because she couldn't stand up for herself (until he forced her too) then when his worth was called into question, she didn't stick up for him, she just acted embarrassed. She would have died, they all would have died without him, yet they can't even act like they know him (she didn't even invite him in the first place) But the problem with that, which has been emphasized by the narrative is those events have never existed outside of Subaru's perspective. As far as they are concerned Subaru was a guy who just happened to show up and assist Emilia in retrieving her emblem back. She looked after him and saved him from another loop. He went on to do his best to care for the mansion and minimize their suspicion of him. He conspicuously linked an aliment with the village population and concluded there was a danger lurking about. Pushing forward, he saved the children of the village, saved Rem after battling the mabeast and once again fatally wounded himself. Upon knowing Rem had went back to eliminate the danger to his he went ahead with her sister to save her again. Ultimately bringing her back to her senses and with help from Roswell destroyed the remainder of the mabeasts. That is it from their eyes. In retrospect they could consider him being in their debt, with a allowing him an opportunity to work and saving him multiple times. Sure he comes off as a determined man who risked limp time and time again to save others. But that doesn't excuse him from interfering with something as serious as the fate of an entire country. Emilia could've had multiple reasons for keeping him out of view. Of course the narrator chose to stick with the reason that would emphasize her "concerned and caring" nature. Subaru didn't honor that, justifiably so considering the hell we've witnessed him go through. But from what Emilia witnessed in life in this loop it isn't tolerable. It shows just how much of a loose bolt in a complex machine he can be. And if he's allowed to continue any further he can, in Emilia's eyes, destroy everything she has worked for, destroy himself and leave her with riddled with more (?) guilt than she needs. Her abstaining from labeling him as her attendant was both a means of damage control and a move to tranquilize Subaru. Then it kept going, he got his ass kicked by the very same person who called him out on his arrogance. He forced Emilia to rush to him and nurture (presumably) after initially dismissing him as anyone significant. Show 1) She's incapable of compartmentalizing her social circles and 2) She cannot even muster the authority needed to keep them in line. This complicates things in a strange way. Like one of the more reserved wisemen said, his actions proved (to him) they have no real reason to fear her, and stated she was lucky to have him by her side. But Emilia is smarter than that. To the majority of those in the room this only would inspire more aggression towards her for some of the reasons stated above. They "fear" her less now and respect her even less. Instead of being viewed as a deadly snake (which would draw repulse) she is now seen more alike to a gutter rat in the sense of repulsive but not nearly as frightening. Ultimately he has effectively humiliated her in one of the worst possible forums. And taking into account the vague and limited time she has spent with him he comes off as self-serving and arrogant. Unbefitting of one of her friends who should at the very least consider her position and completely unacceptable from someone who by title is only there to serve her. Commenting on Subaru's feelings, most of them are very justified. His jealousy is reasonable, after all he adores Emilia. His outburst in the courtroom is reasonable, and can further be attributed in how he sees her in his mind. Even his "Asada-san!" moment at the end of this episode was reasonable, especially considering Emilia chewed him out for the first time (2nd if you include the time he called her by the alias she gave him the first time) after sticking up to her. But what he doesn't understand is how it looks to Emilia. He came of as brash, troublesome, and obnoxious. He presumed she was helpless and needed to be saved from a few harsh words. Completely ignoring the possibility there may be reasons why she didn't fight back. She is the underdog and her very existence in this popularity contest is enough to command insults. Right now she has to play it cool. It's bothering her but she can't go off the rails just yet. The easiest way to do that while keeping her newfound friend which has proven to be rather unruly is to keep him out of it. She didn't snake about, she told him directly to stay behind and his appearance and actions from her perspective was all the reason not to trust him, even with being a simple servant, much less a friend. And his outburst further pushes the envelope with regards to how close she can keep him. Don't get me wrong and I wish I was a bit clearer. I still have respect for like Subaru and feel for him in his predicament. I feel the author unnecessarily complicated the situation to buildup their confrontation. Maybe he felt he needed to force Priscilla and Subaru together for another event in the story but it felt cheesy, annoying when you take into account Priscilla's fawning over him. I can take the outburst in the courtroom, and have no problem with his tirade in the bedroom. |
QWERTYFish25Jun 27, 2016 9:52 AM
| With all due respect Subaru should know of all people about his own powerlessness. Couldn't step a physical fight against Elsa, couldn't step a magic fight in the mansion. What made me cringe, really, is that of all of his death respawns he hasn't learned his lesson ONE BIT. He's still aloof as fck in arc 3. What's with this unrealistic, even more cringey than Tomoko (Watamote) and a sad excuse of a humiliation play plot? |
| >I had no brain when I was 12 >Then everyone must had no brain when they were 12 >I experimented 100 samples and proved that they had no brain when they were 12 >Therefore children cannot consent This is what science has done to humanity. |
QWERTYFish25 said: But the problem with that, which has been emphasized by the narrative is those events have never existed outside of Subaru's perspective. As far as they are concerned Subaru was a guy who just happened to show up and assist Emilia in retrieving her emblem back. She looked after him and saved him from another loop. He went on to do his best to care for the mansion and minimize their suspicion of him. He conspicuously linked an aliment with the village population and concluded there was a danger lurking about. Pushing forward, he saved the children of the village, saved Rem after battling the mabeast and once again fatally wounded himself. Upon knowing Rem had went back to eliminate the danger to his he went ahead with her sister to save her again. Ultimately bringing her back to her senses and with help from Roswell destroyed the remainder of the mabeasts. That is it from their eyes. In retrospect they could consider him being in their debt, with a allowing him an opportunity to work and saving him multiple times. Actually even IF they knew the truth, his rant would still be irrational and problematic. "I saved your lives so now you should be grateful and feel indebted to me and do what i want!!" sounds just as bad. |
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| [quote=Fai message=46667706] QWERTYFish25 said: Actually even IF they knew the truth, his rant would still be irrational and problematic. "I saved your lives so now you should be grateful and feel indebted to me!" sounds just as bad. He tries to act like shounen/harem protagonist in the show that is neither harem nor the shounen. This show should be named like "Help! I am stuck in wrong anime" |
| Signature removed. It was too good for this cruel world. |
I see it as a harmless Easter egg. I believe some guy here had the avatar of |
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Dragon_Slayer_X said: No it at least showed that Subaru's character isn't completely retarded unlike what we saw in the last 2 episodes. Did he really think he could fight a trained knight with nothing but BS? Am i supposed to believe Subaru is completely emotional and incapable of using his brain? No not really after what happened in the last 2 arcs. The only retarded thing here is shocking fact you can't separate emotional behavior from intelligence. Lawd His actions fueled the flames even more and caused his death. Him not taking any action caused the death of another person. *Faceplam* -No it didn't. Hell Roswaal and Ram suspected him even less just based on his actions when he's not forcing himself to please everyone. -Rem's death was cause by a curse which he original thought she casted him. He no knowledge that was different culprit until that point. So your second point makes no freaking sense. Even if it's only a little bit, he should understand that anything he does will have consequences on people and it could be rather negative as well. Seems like he never learned from it and went full retard in the worst possible moment for convenience's sake What are you going on about? Any action you take in life can perceived positively or negatively regardless of intent and what you do or don't do. This proven in the 2nd when Rem kills for reasons unrelated his own character. Uhh no i am whining because his actions mostly negated any development he was supposed to have in the previous 2 arcs and turned him into a retarded obsessive stalker character when he wasn't completely like that. It feels inconsistent and just plot-induced stupidity for the sake of drama in my opinion. But take it as you like..... Again you have still not you provide reason why this goes against what he did in previous arc logically. And the main reason for that is because you completely ignored the reasons he himself had stated for wanting to be by Emilia side in a event like this while forcibly ignoring how different situation was from last arc. You trying to pigeon hole things where the don't belong to prove your point:     B-b-but he's just a stalker and with an obsession! Chirst! EDIT: I gotta to go to work at this point. |
Iron_MawJun 27, 2016 11:18 AM
Fai said: Majority of what Subaru did this or previous episode made no sense and helped nobody. Minority. But him calling out for Emilia being unfairly treated lead to the people to realize that she has a strong will and people are willing to follow her. It was a strange self-centered hysteric fit over not being rewarded for being good. Only the end of episode 13. And in the last scene Subaru literally tells Emilia that he is doing all the stuff because he expects praise and gratitude from her as a reward. He wants to stay by her side. In the end he snapped because of the pressure and because he was desperate. The witch(?) was preventing him from talking as always. Subaru does not want to help Emilia. He wants her to see him helping her and appreciate and reward him for it. He wants to stay by her side. There are quotes which proves that: "I hated them for trying to seperate me from you." (episode 13) "I know there are those in the capital who consider Emilia an enemy." (episode 12) Fai said: He was shown using his brain plenty of times. Yeah, like being rude to all people he met in arc 2. The way he tried to con Rom, the way he approached the barter for the insignia, the way he approached the first loops in the mansion trying to recreate situation and learn more, the way he actually thought and used his brain and kept notes of important details trying to solve the situation, the way he approached the stake-out outside the mansion to find out the killer, etc.... That worked because it wasn't such a large scale problem and his main problem was trust and the curse. But now he has the problem that there are enemies, who he doesn't know. He suspects that she will be killed. That's why he seems so stressed in episode 12 and explodes in episode 13. hell, even the way he fought the dogs by actually being smart and insightful. He was lucky that the dogs weren't any stronger. He could have also taken Rem and escape with her episode 9 judging by the visuals. Humans are on a whole other page though (episode 12 + 13). Episode 11 would have been a suicide fight, if Roswaal hadn't shown up. Yet suddenly one ep latter he acts braindead. He neither acted braindead nor did he act any smarter before. Care to elaborate? This is literally the last time in this arc that Subaru said anything smart: Between saying something smart and acting smart are whole worlds. Its hilarious that the writing of his character in Ep11 and Ep12 literally contradicts the scene from the start of the same episode. Because words = actions. That end rant of this episode though literally made only him being drugged/mind-controlled by the witch into jealousy, as the only reasonable explanation of the change in personality. Very much pressure coupled with the silencing by the witch(?) broke him and made him spout the words, which where uncalled for. FragOutFire said: If this was happening on Earth, Subaru would be complaining on his facebook how dumb bitches don't appreciate nice guys and only go for jerks Between just being simply nice (pretending to or being like that) and saving somebody, giving her a chance to become a priestess and saving the landlord from criticism (incident with kids), thus helping Emilia in turn again, lay two different worlds. Actions hold more worth than empty words. |
Bernkishi07Jun 27, 2016 10:14 AM
Re:Zero nice troll ending.  |
| Man Subaru is being a stupid cringey little fuck. really starting to dislike him which is bringing down the entire show for me. trying to be a white night for a girl that doesn't really even like him and going about it in such an embarrassing way to see. stupid, weak, and cringe-worthy are not character traits i like for a MC |
| Scream! |
Red_Abeyance said: Man Subaru is being a stupid cringey little fuck. really starting to dislike him which is bringing down the entire show for me. trying to be a white night for a girl that doesn't really even like him and going about it in such an embarrassing way to see. stupid, weak, and cringe-worthy are not character traits i like for a MC  Its only been two episodes of this relax. After episode 15 he will only go up. |
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| @Jagd84 @Sometimes791 Guys...Stahp...It hurts me to see you guys coming new ways to prove few people SAYING EXACT SAME COMPLAINTS OVER AND OVER without even paying attention to anything you guys say....Give up... I have been gone for 1 whole day and you guys still trying to prove exact same thing to Fai and the bunch... ;_; No,it is what people do when they have a huge fight with their lovers or friends or whatever,overflowed with all kinds of feelings and angst while thinking they are being treated unfairly...When you lose your shit you DO NOT think,you CANT think...You just yell out the ugliest shit trapped inside the very depths of your heart... Subaru THOUGHT that she owed him,maybe just a little but he thought that,you would thought like that too...And he couldnt stop himself from screaming that ugly thought out of frustration and desperation... He didnt regress,he was always an emotional "human" and he is still an emotional "human"... 1) Subaru doesn't understand how the world works and shows no awareness about social standing. This has been built up for several episodes now. 2) Emilia was getting talked down on all sides, plus she didn't have a knight to protect her like all of the other candidates. Thus Subaru had an emotional outburst at this injustice and tried to level the playing field. 3) The whole "you owe me" speech at the end was a result of his frustration at being unable to talk about Return by Death. Moreover, after being destroyed by Julius he was mentally unstable since his pride got completely shattered. |
LoneWizzyJun 27, 2016 10:38 AM
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LaxusAK said: i sure hope so. hopefully he dies again and resets thisRed_Abeyance said: Man Subaru is being a stupid cringey little fuck. really starting to dislike him which is bringing down the entire show for me. trying to be a white night for a girl that doesn't really even like him and going about it in such an embarrassing way to see. stupid, weak, and cringe-worthy are not character traits i like for a MC Its only been two episodes of this relax. After episode 15 he will only go up. |
| Scream! |
Dragon_Slayer_X said: No it at least showed that Subaru's character isn't completely retarded unlike what we saw in the last 2 episodes. What? Did you forget the fact that he took on an assassin in arc 1 and a huge mabeast in arc 2 without any fucking solid plan like a retard? The only reason they actually got resolved was because of stronger people like Reinhardt and Rosewaal being nearby. |
Red_Abeyance said: i sure hope so. hopefully he dies again and resets this What I said was sorta a guarantee since I read ahead in the manga. |
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Z4k said: Dragon_Slayer_X said: No it at least showed that Subaru's character isn't completely retarded unlike what we saw in the last 2 episodes. What? Did you forget the fact that he took on an assassin in arc 1 and a huge mabeast in arc 2 without any fucking solid plan like a retard? The only reason they actually got resolved was because of stronger people like Reinhardt and Rosewaal being nearby. Finally someone saw the light. |
Re:Zero nice troll ending. |
Fai said: QWERTYFish25 said: But the problem with that, which has been emphasized by the narrative is those events have never existed outside of Subaru's perspective. As far as they are concerned Subaru was a guy who just happened to show up and assist Emilia in retrieving her emblem back. She looked after him and saved him from another loop. He went on to do his best to care for the mansion and minimize their suspicion of him. He conspicuously linked an aliment with the village population and concluded there was a danger lurking about. Pushing forward, he saved the children of the village, saved Rem after battling the mabeast and once again fatally wounded himself. Upon knowing Rem had went back to eliminate the danger to his he went ahead with her sister to save her again. Ultimately bringing her back to her senses and with help from Roswell destroyed the remainder of the mabeasts. That is it from their eyes. In retrospect they could consider him being in their debt, with a allowing him an opportunity to work and saving him multiple times. Actually even IF they knew the truth, his rant would still be irrational and problematic. "I saved your lives so now you should be grateful and feel indebted to me and do what i want!!" sounds just as bad. Problematic as fuck. beast_regards said: He tries to act like shounen/harem protagonist in the show that is neither harem nor the shounen. This show should be named like "Help! I am stuck in wrong anime" Lol. |
Sometimes791 said: He referred to the incident with the curse and the children as well. Without him, she could've lost her support for the throne (there was a passage indicating that Roswaal would've beared the blame otherwise, thus damaging his and Emilia's reputation). Yes, because he totally did go rescue the village for Emilia and her suppot for the Throne. /facepalm |
ShrimperorJun 27, 2016 11:14 AM
Shrimperor said: Sometimes791 said: He referred to the incident with the curse and the children as well. Without him, she could've lost her support for the throne (there was a passage indicating that Roswaal would've beared the blame otherwise, thus damaging his and Emilia's reputation). Yes, because he totally did go rescue to village for Emilia and her suppot for the Throne. /facepalm ...You don't know politics work do you? |
Jagd84 said: Shrimperor said: Yes, because he totally did go rescue to village for Emilia and her suppot for the Throne. /facepalm ...You don't know politics work do you? Because Barusu totally had Politics in mind when he did it. |
Shrimperor said: Sometimes791 said: He referred to the incident with the curse and the children as well. Without him, she could've lost her support for the throne (there was a passage indicating that Roswaal would've beared the blame otherwise, thus damaging his and Emilia's reputation). Yes, because he totally did go rescue to village for Emilia and her suppot for the Throne. /facepalm Ehhmm, that's not the point? He helped her through that action, even if this wasn't his primary intention. Nonetheless, the results of his actions are big. /facepalm |
Re:Zero nice troll ending. |
Sometimes791 said: Shrimperor said: Yes, because he totally did go rescue to village for Emilia and her suppot for the Throne. /facepalm Ehhmm, that's not the point? He helped her through that action, even if this wasn't his primary intention. Nonetheless, the results of his actions are big. /facepalm The Point is she owes him NOTHING. |
| Subaru is just so cringe everything he does is cringe. This time he went to a new level, fighting, insulting, arguing and everything. Listen to Emilia for once... |
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Shrimperor said: The Point is she owes him NOTHING. nice guy behavior is not a debt to be repaid just because you are being NICE First I wanted to disprove that his motive for his words were not because he was simply NICE. He saved her life. That's more than being just nice. Now as for the debt. Especially in this time-line, she hasn't helped him a lot. On the other hand, he saved her life. She wouldn't exist in this loop anymore if he wasn't there. He is the reason why she lives. She owes him her life. Furthermore she owes him being a valid candidate for now. If that isn't a debt, then I don't know anymore. How high that debt actually is and how it has to be repayed, that is debatable. |
Re:Zero nice troll ending. |
Sometimes791 said: Shrimperor said: The Point is she owes him NOTHING. nice guy behavior is not a debt to be repaid just because you are being NICE First I wanted to disprove that his motive for his words were not because he was simply NICE. He saved her life. That's more than being just nice. Now as for the debt. Especially in this time-line, she hasn't helped him a lot. On the other hand, he saved her life. She wouldn't exist in this loop anymore if he wasn't there. He is the reason why she lives. She owes him her life. Furthermore she owes him being a valid candidate for now. If that isn't a debt, then I don't know anymore. How high that debt actually is and how it has to be repayed, that is debatable. He also owes her being alive (and not returning). Debt paid. |
Shrimperor said: He also owes her being alive (and not returning). Debt paid. Reinhard saved him in episode 3. After that Beatrice patched him up for the most part. Rem saved him in episode 9 (after that he saved her). Roswaal in episode 11. |
Re:Zero nice troll ending. |
| This episode was just too much. Everything was all over the place... I didn't like the bitchy Emilia tho. I know she can't understand if he doesn't say it but cmon you know he loves you.... |
| He's totally fucked up. |
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Sometimes791 said: Shrimperor said: He also owes her being alive (and not returning). Debt paid. Reinhard saved him in episode 3. After that Beatrice patched him up for the most part. Rem saved him in episode 9 (after that he saved her). Roswaal in episode 11. Emilia episode 1. Also, she gave him a favor as a 'thank you' for saving her. And if you are doing something good to have people in your debt then you aren't doing any good at all. |
Dragon_Slayer_X said: Z4k said: What? Did you forget the fact that he took on an assassin in arc 1 and a huge mabeast in arc 2 without any fucking solid plan like a retard? The only reason they actually got resolved was because of stronger people like Reinhardt and Rosewaal being nearby. Damn i also forgot that he actually learned something from dying, actually did quite well first and then with Emilia and Puck's support against Elsa. I also forgot that he had a good enough plan to go against the unknown assassin in Arc 2 (when Rem was revealed as the assassin). Against the mabeast he at least showed he was capable by using it's momentum against him. He at least learned and knew his limits. And now he overestimated himself and turned into a complete retard this episode. Forgive me for not forgetting that Subaru showed some capability in the previous 2 arcs. He showed those capabilities only after he died multiple times. Remind me how many times he has died in this arc after making a fool out of himself? |
Shrimperor said: Emilia episode 1. Also, she gave him a favor as a 'thank you' for saving her. (from me) Especially in this time-line, she hasn't helped him a lot. She wouldn't exist in this loop anymore if he wasn't there. I'm talking about Emilia in this time-line. And if you are doing something good to have people in your debt then you aren't doing any good at all. We're not discussing whether it's good. However, if you want to discuss it as well: It wasn't his initial intention to use it as a debt. He was desperate, so that Emilia stays. He thought he could seriously convince her that way. We see the result though. |
Re:Zero nice troll ending. |
| oh shit the way he snapped wasn't cool that was bad and i hate that vilet knight even though he's kinda right |
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Sometimes791 said: He was desperate, so that Emilia stays. He thought he could seriously convince her that way. We see the result though. True. He was an idiot, easy and simple. |
| I love this episode, just to see the comments here, people discussing in every forum/site/fansite about his action,fear and his emotions is completely fucking great. Even if u dislike this episode you can't deny this was good. instead of that you woundt be here to discuss it |
| Subaru was an embarrassment to watch this episode. Jeez, he needs to know his place in this world and also realize that he knows nothing of the customs in this world. |
MeganeLime said: I feel bad for Subaru, it's impossible for him to tell anyone about his return to death neither could anyone believe it apart from Emilia. But seeing the last scene, she won't believe him if he can't do what she asks. He did go overboard, but it was his choice to continue fighting against the knight. I see people complaining about some scenes being rearranged or making Roswaal way to suspicious, I sincerely hope that those tiny problems won't make that big of a difference. I won't judge from what people say about the LN/manga and on how it was adapted, I'll see how the show goes from now on. Overall, I loved the episode. Pretty intense which is what I love.^^ Actually the ONLY way I could understand his braindead try to fight the knight is if he tried to get killed that way hoping to erase the fuck up he caused. |
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Soli18 said: This episode was just too much. Everything was all over the place... I didn't like the bitchy Emilia tho. I know she can't understand if he doesn't say it but cmon you know he loves you.... Her bitchiness was justified in her perspective. Right now he's implied he has an interest in her. That doesn't justify him completely going against what she asked him. Her character is exponentially more believable because she actually put him in his place with regards to how he acted without just cause. And by just cause I mean that from the perspective of the others who have no clue what he knows or understands. |
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