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#1
Dec 6, 2009 7:42 PM
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As some of you may know, for the past few months the staff have been putting together guidelines for all of the databases on MAL. All staff members have discussed, read through and approved these guidelines, including Xinil.

These guidelines are intended to provide you with much of the information you have been getting by word of mouth up to now. Much of what is written in these guidelines has always been the case, it has just never been formally written down. If you would like to contribute to any of the databases on MAL, the staff asks that you read through these guidelines and be aware of them prior to any submissions or requests for edits.

If there are any questions regarding these guidelines please post in this thread. If you disagree with something in one of the guidelines please post in its respective support subboard. However, please keep in mind that you must present solid arguments for us to reconsider these rules.

We hope that these guidelines will make submissions move much more efficiently through the queue and will help to further communication between users and moderators.

The individual database guidelines can be found in their respective subboards. For convenience they are linked here:
- Anime DB Guidelines
- Manga DB Guidelines
- Character & People DB Guidelines

Some entries will be affected by these guidelines. If you would like to know which, please see these threads:
- Anime Entries
- Manga Entries
- Character Entries

Thanks,
MAL Staff


Jan 12/10: Minimal updates to anime/manga guidelines containing mostly clarifications on questions posted after release.
Modified by Kineta, Jan 13, 2010 11:54 AM
 
#2
Dec 6, 2009 7:43 PM
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I would like to thank everyone involved for making this possible. Hopefully these guidelines will help us in managing the database for years to come.
 
#3
Dec 6, 2009 7:48 PM

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Everyone worked very hard to put these out, especially Kineta and freedoleen who listened to both the mods and the users (with both parties probably sounding rather cranky at times!) to stitch all these together into one coherent piece. So thanks :)
 
#4
Dec 6, 2009 7:50 PM

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quick question about the manga guidelines.

e. Relations
1. The "Adaptation" relation may only be used between the Anime and Manga Databases; please use "Alternate Version" for Manga <-> Novel relations.


What if a manga IS a adaption of a novel or vis versa? Are we still marking it as an Alternate Version? If so it kind of seems like false info if we do it that way. Figured I'd ask just in case.
 
 
#5
Dec 6, 2009 7:53 PM
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DeathfireD said:
What if a manga IS a adaption of a novel or vis versa? Are we still marking it as an Alternate Version? If so it kind of seems like false info if we do it that way. Figured I'd ask just in case.
It has to do with the way the databases are coded. By choosing Adaptation, it tells the manga entry to search out the anime with the following ID and link it, and visa versa. Since both novels and manga are assigned manga IDs, marking it Adaptation searches out some random anime instead of the novel you hoped to link. Thus, we must use something different, and Alternate Version seems the best choice.

Hope this helps :)
 
#6
Dec 6, 2009 8:16 PM

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I have some serious concerns about two of the biggies:

What entries in anime database are allowed?

* Professionally produced animation made in Japan for the Japanese market.
.


Okay for starters I would reword that or elaborate on that. I'm starting to bet that in this day and age anime is never made solely for a Japanese market anymore. There's also a bit more elaboration and concern about joint venture projects I explain below.

What anime entries are not allowed?

* Shows not intended for the Japanese/Korean/Chinese market. For example, when a Japanese studio is involved in the production of the show for the American release.


Why? Granted you want to maintain a decent compression of information and you probably wouldn't want to include some American cartoon just because Tatsunoko or someone maybe did some key work or did a few episodes. Boondocks I probably wouldn't include even if MadHouse did the second season. But what about joint ventures? Like Batman: Gotham Knight, or Halo Legends? What about the new Production I.G anime being produced with a Singapore company? Wouldn't those be disqualified for the database under this guideline?
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#7
Dec 6, 2009 8:31 PM
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ShadowAlex said:
I'm starting to bet that in this day and age anime is never made solely for a Japanese market anymore.

This may be true. But we obviously mean the first audience here. And if it's not Japan or Japan and the rest of the world... then we don't consider it an anime.

ShadowAlex said:
But what about joint ventures? Like Batman: Gotham Knight, or Halo Legends? What about the new Production I.G anime being produced with a Singapore company? Wouldn't those be disqualified for the database under this guideline?

Joints are fine as long as they are released in Japan. And both examples you provided were/will be.
 
#8
Dec 6, 2009 8:37 PM

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Kineta said:
DeathfireD said:
What if a manga IS a adaption of a novel or vis versa? Are we still marking it as an Alternate Version? If so it kind of seems like false info if we do it that way. Figured I'd ask just in case.
It has to do with the way the databases are coded. By choosing Adaptation, it tells the manga entry to search out the anime with the following ID and link it, and visa versa. Since both novels and manga are assigned manga IDs, marking it Adaptation searches out some random anime instead of the novel you hoped to link. Thus, we must use something different, and Alternate Version seems the best choice.

Hope this helps :)


haha so essentially we're using a work around because novels where never thought of when MAL's database schema was made, nice. As much as I hate using false info I guess that's a reasonable work around for now. Is Xinil ever going to make a 3rd table for Novels so we can brake this dirty work around?
 
#9
Dec 6, 2009 8:51 PM

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I object to Robotech: The Untold Story's merge into Megazone 23. While the rest of the Robotech series were just redubs with minor editing, Robotech: The Untold Story had huge chucks of it edited, with scenes from Southern Cross spliced in, along with new footage, created specifically for it.

Also, the US version of Golion(Voltron) has more episodes than the Japanese release, because World Events comissioned an extra 20 episodes for Voltron, due to its popularity in the US.
Modified by llxwarbirdxll, Dec 6, 2009 8:55 PM
 
 
Dec 6, 2009 8:56 PM

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shinkeikaku said:
Everyone worked very hard to put these out, especially Kineta and freedoleen who listened to both the mods and the users (with both parties probably sounding rather cranky at times!) to stitch all these together into one coherent piece. So thanks :)


Cranky is as cranky does :)

And we were never cranky....just very opinionated :-p

 
Dec 6, 2009 8:58 PM

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Aarana said:
shinkeikaku said:
Everyone worked very hard to put these out, especially Kineta and freedoleen who listened to both the mods and the users (with both parties probably sounding rather cranky at times!) to stitch all these together into one coherent piece. So thanks :)


Cranky is as cranky does :)

And we were never cranky....just very opinionated :-p
Speak for yourself! I'm always cranky. :^D
 
Dec 6, 2009 10:45 PM

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freedoleen said:
I would like to thank everyone involved for making this possible. Hopefully these guidelines will help us in managing the database for years to come.

shinkeikaku said:
Everyone worked very hard to put these out, especially Kineta and freedoleen who listened to both the mods and the users (with both parties probably sounding rather cranky at times!) to stitch all these together into one coherent piece. So thanks :)


At last! (^-^)b A sigh of great relief from me and of course a huge 'Thank You Very Much!' to everyone. \(^o\) (/o^)/ Perhaps not on the opinionated side (-_-;) but I was certainly of strong opinion (>_<) ...never cranky though. (^o^)y

Thanks again. (^_^)/~~
 
Dec 7, 2009 3:11 AM

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Let's get things done. ^^
 
Dec 7, 2009 4:28 AM

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Wonderful work everyone! I still need to read some of the guidelines I don't have the time to check now, but I'll be sure to as soon as I get home.
Thank you very much to everyone for all your constant efforts to improve the site!
------------------------
Database Guidelines
Denials: anime | manga
Modifications: anime | manga
-----------------------------------
 
 
Dec 7, 2009 7:22 AM

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In truth, I find that there's quite a bit of manga serializations not listed within the pretext of Mal's respected database. At times some of my database submissions get dismissed due to there simply being no synopsis. A title usually lacks information when it has yet to be scanlated, since relatively no one knows what the series is exactly about because no ones read it.

It's nice to know that Mal's reforming and doing it's best to compose a coherent list of titles, it's definitely convenient to say the least. Moderators can be a bit tardy at times when absolving, admitting, and or regulating submissions for database approval; but of course there are always other pressing matters to attend to so I can't really hold any staff and or affiliates accountable.
Modified by ralphy0103, Dec 7, 2009 7:29 AM
 
Dec 7, 2009 7:52 AM

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Glad to see these posted! Hopefully they'll clear a lot of things up and make improving MAL easier for everyone, staff and users alike.

oh, these little earthquakes
 
 
Dec 7, 2009 8:16 AM

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ralphy0103 said:
In truth, I find that there's quite a bit of manga serializations not listed within the pretext of Mal's respected database. At times some of my database submissions get dismissed due to there simply being no synopsis. A title usually lacks information when it has yet to be scanlated, since relatively no one knows what the series is exactly about because no ones read it.

If you have concerns about a specific submission, please ask us in the subforum since it's more attention grabbing. :) That said, nothing should be dismissed by lacking a synopsis alone. Not before, not now. Denial happens often when we can't find if a title exists. We need enough info to confirm it (we're calling this "minimal info" now). Images are more useful than a synopsis for that. If we're given a proper Japanese title (or even a reasonable romanized title), we can find most things. So next time you submit something and it never shows up, check the denial thread and fell free to ask us by giving us the title you submitted. I add tons of raw, unscanned stuff myself, so I and others can probably help you. :)
 
Dec 7, 2009 10:14 AM
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llxwarbirdxll said:
I object to Robotech: The Untold Story's merge into Megazone 23. While the rest of the Robotech series were just redubs with minor editing, Robotech: The Untold Story had huge chucks of it edited, with scenes from Southern Cross spliced in, along with new footage, created specifically for it.

Also, the US version of Golion(Voltron) has more episodes than the Japanese release, because World Events comissioned an extra 20 episodes for Voltron, due to its popularity in the US.

We are aware of this. However The Untold Story and those extra 20 episodes of Voltron were never released in Japan, so they don't follow the very first rule of the anime db guidelines.
 
Dec 7, 2009 10:37 AM
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DeathfireD said:

haha so essentially we're using a work around because novels where never thought of when MAL's database schema was made, nice. As much as I hate using false info I guess that's a reasonable work around for now. Is Xinil ever going to make a 3rd table for Novels so we can brake this dirty work around?


Well, he said there won't be a novel list, so most likely no.
 
Dec 7, 2009 2:30 PM

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It's good to see that there is now a published list of guidelines. Hopefully we won't have as many people complaining about "this and that" entry left, right and centre.

It's a shame though that the number of completed animes in my list will be decreased by 8 though because of the merging and stuff :(
 
Dec 7, 2009 8:17 PM

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Hopefully users will actually read these guidelines :x

Whoo~ knk isn't merged yet :>
 
 
Dec 7, 2009 10:02 PM

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the rules got updated. :] when i try to add a manga (or even start adding major/minor characters for a manga series with an empty character list *cries*) i will going to look at the list.

but why isn't Tokyopop in the list of mangas companies that releases OELs? and Viz Media isn't now, but they do now accept world manga entries.
 
Dec 7, 2009 10:26 PM
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Maora said:
but why isn't Tokyopop in the list of mangas companies that releases OELs? and Viz Media isn't now, but they do now accept world manga entries.
Don't know how Tokyopop disappeared off that list.... I swear it was there before! I've re-added it, thanks for the catch :) As for the rest of the publishers, this list was made off of the current OEL series in our database and as of now Viz has published none of these series. As I said in my other post, it is a very preliminary list of publishers and we expect it to change and evolve as time goes on.
 
Dec 7, 2009 10:29 PM

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thanks. :]

*goes to add characters to give the mods a harder time*
 
Dec 8, 2009 7:52 AM

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When will the entries that do not conform be deleted?
I would like to backup those pages before that happens.
There are some great reviews there and the "synapses" created by the recommendations are useful.
 
Dec 8, 2009 8:44 AM

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freedoleen said:

ShadowAlex said:
But what about joint ventures? Like Batman: Gotham Knight, or Halo Legends? What about the new Production I.G anime being produced with a Singapore company? Wouldn't those be disqualified for the database under this guideline?

Joints are fine as long as they are released in Japan. And both examples you provided were/will be.


If the provision on "for the Japanese market" merely requires the work be released in Japan, than several of the planned database deletions should not take place. This includes The Hobbit, which was released in Japan in July of 1978, not long after its U.S. premiere.

Actually I have an objection to excluding titles made by Topcraft and other collaborative works in general. It would seem to me that the general requirement, that a work be animated by a Japanese animation company and is a stand-alone work, is fulfilled by movies like The Hobbit. On top of which, it seems far more absurd to me on allowing Chinese titles that simply have the same artistic style when actual Japanese products are excluded just because of their market targets. I mean hell, the Japanese animation industry relies heavily on exporting its works to other countries as it is. To me, these new guidelines (outside of consolidating works, though even then I have one or two objections on specific works) are a bit absurd.
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Dec 8, 2009 9:05 AM

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Continuing the idea of Mr_Panda I have to wonder if you are truly adding value to MAL by removing titles. They were added because someone watched them and wanted to have them on the list and as time went by more people added them to their list.
I am not sure that by imposing such rules you are improving the experience of the members.
The internet was always meant to be a kind of anarchic place that evolves thanks to the individual participants not thanks to rules imposed by a few.
I think a better way to have decided these guidelines would have been with a community-wide poll and discussion thread.It would have taken a lot longer but it would have been more transparent.

Than again you say you have made your mind so i believe there is no turning back now.
 
Dec 8, 2009 10:08 AM
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@Mr_Panda: I guess I was too ambiguous about this. Halo, Gotham Knight, or not mentioned here Afro Samurai (that also aired in Japan) have been not only animated but also created and produced in Japan. Pretty much everything or almost everything was done in Japan. Meaning that if a US company hires Japanese animators only to animate a show for them it's not an anime. Perhaps some adjustments need to be applied to the guidelines to make it more obvious.

@alexvoda: Poll? I'm sorry, but polls can be very, very easily manipulated. Also judging by this thread polling members on every issue would take ages. It's actually our job to provide users with a good and consistent database and we believe that making these guidelines is a step in the right direction. But believe it or not, we actually care about our users. Dragon Ball Z (U.S.) won't be removed because of its huge (and I mean HUGE) popularity. We also reconsidered the stop motion animation issue. And you know, these guidelines are not set in stone. We are open to suggestions. However convincing us that The Hobbit should stay would be quite difficult, for the reasons stated in my reply to Mr_Panda.
Modified by freedoleen, Dec 8, 2009 10:13 AM
 
Dec 8, 2009 10:51 AM

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alexvoda said:
Continuing the idea of Mr_Panda I have to wonder if you are truly adding value to MAL by removing titles. They were added because someone watched them and wanted to have them on the list and as time went by more people added them to their list.
I am not sure that by imposing such rules you are improving the experience of the members.
Most of those titles were added long before these guidelines were even put into development. As a fairly new moderator myself, I can't speak for the decisions made in the past, but at this point you can pretty much assume any old rules before are no longer valid in lieu of these guidelines. And I hope you aren't expecting much out of the "someone watched them and wanted to have them on the list" argument. We don't even need to talk about Avatar, the Touhou anime or Fumiko no Kokuhaku are good enough examples. As popular as they are (I actually desperately want the Touhou anime in the database), we have to put our feet down somewhere. This isn't about making MAL enjoyable at all, it's about taking a step towards a more consistent and orderly database. Yes, at this point we are aware that there still lots of conflicts despite the implementation of these guidelines and that's why they were released before any major steps in cleaning up the database were taken.
The internet was always meant to be a kind of anarchic place that evolves thanks to the individual participants not thanks to rules imposed by a few.
I think a better way to have decided these guidelines would have been with a community-wide poll and discussion thread.It would have taken a lot longer but it would have been more transparent.
The core of the anime DB guidelines
Professionally produced animation made in Japan for the Japanese market.
was rephrased after the passionate movement by users to prevent stop motion animation from being tossed out. I know it's a stretch as a rebuttal, but I thought I'd point it out anyway. You do have a point in that MAL is a primarily user run website. The database would be no where near the scale it's at today if MAL was being run in a totalitarian fashion. However, giving complete power to the people removes the point of moderation. Even supposed "free edit" sites like Wikipedia have an active moderation team to prevent chaos from breaking out. And honestly, despite the larger amount of freedom given to users on Wiki, their admins are bigger assholes with their jobs than we'll ever be. More freedom of decision to you guys could actually be counter-intuitive. Also, your suggestion would work under the assumption that everyone cares. Looking at this thread and a couple of the threads under the database sub-forums however, we only have a handful of pages worth of replies despite them having been up for almost 48 hours. Half of the replies are from mods, the other from a small collection of dedicated users. As freedoleen's link to the romanization thread shows, tossing out a public discussion actually doesn't work out too well due to a lack of concern by the majority of the userbase.
Than again you say you have made your mind so i believe there is no turning back now.
We're planning to adhere to these guidelines as closely as possible but they're still subject to change. There's always room for arguments, such as the one for The Hobbit currently. And as you can see from reading the various threads, lots of complaints have already been voiced by a few individuals. So I wouldn't just lay down and give up if I were you.
 
 
Dec 8, 2009 11:25 AM

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freedoleen said:
@Mr_Panda: I guess I was too ambiguous about this. Halo, Gotham Knight, or not mentioned here Afro Samurai (that also aired in Japan) have been not only animated but also created and produced in Japan. Pretty much everything or almost everything was done in Japan. Meaning that if a US company hires Japanese animators only to animate a show for them, it's not an anime. Perhaps some adjustments need to be applied to the guidelines to make it more obvious.


This argument would exclude even more titles from the database then the current chop block. It was a very slippery slope to begin with, but there's a difference between drawing a line and cutting off our own foot. I can only assume that by "create", you mean the idea/story/screenplay originated in Japan/other-allowable-area. In that case, huge portions of anime can go right to the deletion bracket. By animate, all the titles in this instance WERE animated in Japan. Even the memorable Christmas animated favorites (like Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer), were filmed in a warehouse in Tokyo. And as for production, a release IN Japan automatically assumes a PRODUCTION team in Japan.

The guidelines are practically hypocritical anyway. Why should China and Korea get the benefit of being allowed to produce/create/jointvenutre "anime"? Anime is a Japanese term, used to describe animated works made in Japan. I agree that works like Avatar (which the creators have never claimed to be anime, just anime-like, and was created and animated by Nickelodeon) should be excluded from the database. However, the idea of the U.S. being disallowed the privilege of producing anime in favor of China and Korea (both of whom despise Japan, and whose markets are deadzoneas for most Japanese animated works) is ludicrous to me. It's downright illogical.

In either case, Avatar (as I mentioned earlier) does not fit the basic criteria for an anime anyway.

If any guideline were to be imposed, I think it should be as straightforward as the animation work must be made by a Japanese company (which generally implies all the work is done in Japan anyway). We shouldn’t exclude works just because there was outside money involved, a company requested the work be done, or there was a primary U.S. release. Dropping the stipulation of "Japanese market" wouldn't result in a logical deletion of stop-motion films either. Animation companies to this day list their collaborative works in their production history, works like the Last Unicorn have received attention at Otakon and other major anime conventions, and most independent sources that have actually seen and reviewed works like the Last Unicorn categorize it as "anime".

Why must there be an added stipulation that only cuts titles that fulfill the most basic requirement for being called "anime"? That's my only question now. Likely the guidelines and subsequent deletions will go on with or without anyone else's opinion.
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Dec 8, 2009 11:49 AM

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1. @ freedoleen: Please elaborate on how a poll can be manipulated (to not be off topic you can PM me).I believed that since voting is based on having an account and account creation uses captcha it wouldn't be that easy.
2. I would also like to ask about the situation of something like G.I. Joe Sigma 6 which was pretty much made for the States, for Marvel.
3. Please tell me more about the stop motion purge issue since I am not aware of what happened.
4. @ Xjellocross: Thanks for telling me. I was not aware that Touhou was not on MAL. I thought it was on my list of completed.
5. @ Mr_Panda: I believe you are mistaken on one point. Japanese studios also outsource parts of their production process to other countries in order to cut costs.
6. Since it may be an appropriate moment I would like to share my view on this entire situation(not just MAL, but the entire problem).
I believe that the time has come that we classify animation similarly to other arts. Even if we keep the term of anime to mean "Professionally produced animation made in Japan for the Japanese market" or we refresh the meaning and use Japanese animation to define animation from Japan, we should start defining movements in animation.
And there are plenty of movements based on the styles(cartoonish, caricatureal, the style pioneered by Osamu Tezuka --- which we generally associate with anime ---, marvel/dc style, etc.) and techniques(stop motion, cell, flash, 3d cgi, etc.).
This is something that I have been trying to convince people for a few years.
I believe animation is now an incredibly diverse and vast field that requires proper categories.
Of course this is debatable but I think there are valid points in what I have said.
Modified by alexvoda, Dec 8, 2009 12:16 PM
 
 
Dec 8, 2009 12:28 PM
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@Mr_Panda

This argument would exclude even more titles from the database then the current chop block. It was a very slippery slope to begin with, but there's a difference between drawing a line and cutting off our own foot. I can only assume that by "create", you mean the idea/story/screenplay originated in Japan/other-allowable-area. In that case, huge portions of anime can go right to the deletion bracket. By animate, all the titles in this instance WERE animated in Japan. Even the memorable Christmas animated favorites (like Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer), were filmed in a warehouse in Tokyo.

Examples, please. I do hope you don't mean the shows that were just influenced by Western works, like Romeo x Juliet.

And as for production, a release IN Japan automatically assumes a PRODUCTION team in Japan.

Really? So every US movie released in Japan was produced in Japan? Translating/dubbing/releasing isn't the same thing as producing the show from scratch.

The guidelines are practically hypocritical anyway. Why should China and Korea get the benefit of being allowed to produce/create/jointvenutre "anime"?

We don't say Korean/Chinese animation is an anime. However, we feel they are similar enough to include them in our database. So why not allow every single show that shares similar traits to anime? The answer is simple. Because the definition could get way too broad that way.

Anime is a Japanese term, used to describe animated works made in Japan.

Wrong. For Japanese "anime" means every animation ever made, in the whole world.

If any guideline were to be imposed, I think it should be as straightforward as the animation work must be made by a Japanese company (which generally implies all the work is done in Japan anyway).

Wrong. Anime isn't just an animation, is it.

Animation companies to this day list their collaborative works in their production history, works like the Last Unicorn have received attention at Otakon and other major anime conventions, and most independent sources that have actually seen and reviewed works like the Last Unicorn categorize it as "anime".

I remember seeing Shrek at the top of the best selling animation titles in Japan, before many anime shows.

Why must there be an added stipulation that only cuts titles that fulfill the most basic requirement for being called "anime"? That's my only question now.

Because the line has to be drawn somewhere.

@alexvoda:

1. You would be surprised to what degree people enjoy manipulating numbers. Some examples: 1, 2. And many more. Captcha doesn't stop them.

2. Good catch. G.I. Joe Sigma 6 should be removed as it was never released in Japan.

3. http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=125036

6. All kinds of animation can be allowed into our database, as long as they don't collide with the guidelines. The classification idea sounds pretty interesting, but we would need much more details. How about making a thread about in Suggestions?
Modified by freedoleen, Dec 8, 2009 12:34 PM
 
Dec 8, 2009 12:50 PM

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1. Oh come on!!! Manually created accounts made for trolling? How stupid can they be? Time is an important resource and this is what they do with it?

6. I will post it in Sugestions but I will need help developing the classification and the specifics of each class. And as I said this isn't just a MAL thing,...., but this is a good place to start.

7. What about Pucca the 2006 TV series (not funny love the ONA)? for all I know it was destined for Canadian consumption.

8. Actually how do you determine the target audience of an ONA? Isn't it kind of a world wide (web) kind of release?
Modified by alexvoda, Dec 8, 2009 1:17 PM
 
Dec 8, 2009 1:29 PM
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1. Unfortunately.

6. Please post it and we'll see what exactly you have in mind.

7. It aired in Korea.

8. Well, checking the language it's originally in usually says everything. If there is no talk it technically can be taken as a worldwide release, which includes Japan/Korea.
 
Dec 8, 2009 7:47 PM
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Sorry if this has been asked before, I couldn't find it.

"Foreign edits, i.e. when a cut version of the show was broadcast outside of Japan. Information about such edits can be placed in the More Info tab. Exception: Dragon Ball Z (U.S.)." from this list of rules http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=141101


Why is DBZ the only exception? It is no where near as edited as Volton (U.S.) to Hyakujuu-Ou GoLion is but that is merging into one series.
 
Dec 8, 2009 8:01 PM

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Clobclark said:
Why is DBZ the only exception? It is no where near as edited as Volton (U.S.) to Hyakujuu-Ou GoLion is but that is merging into one series.

Here's the answer.
I'm personally not very happy with this decision though. But I can see the point.
------------------------
Database Guidelines
Denials: anime | manga
Modifications: anime | manga
-----------------------------------
 
Dec 8, 2009 8:56 PM
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Sorry for reposting the question, thank you Loxaris.
 
Dec 9, 2009 1:08 AM
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Eliholz said:
What about "Chiisana Viking Vickie"?
Episode 1-26 first aired in Germany, but 27-78 in Japan.

Are you sure about this/have a dependable source? I see Japanese titles for the episodes 1-26 as well. If you mean that they aired in Japan some time later, then it's okay. The most important thing is they did air over there, seeing as the bigger part of it was aired there initially anyway.
Modified by freedoleen, Dec 9, 2009 1:17 AM
 
 
Dec 9, 2009 4:48 AM

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Clobclark said:
Sorry for reposting the question, thank you Loxaris.

You are most welcome.
------------------------
Database Guidelines
Denials: anime | manga
Modifications: anime | manga
-----------------------------------
 
Dec 9, 2009 8:48 AM

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@ freedoleen

I notice you have a tendency to ignore the qualifying statements I put into my own words. I'll assume you act in good faith and are not doing it on purpose.

Examples, please. I do hope you don't mean the shows that were just influenced by Western works, like Romeo x Juliet.


As you failed to explain, even in your reply to me, what you meant by "create", I can only assume you meant what I iterated in my post. In which case, yes I mean "influenced".

Really? So every US movie released in Japan was produced in Japan? Translating/dubbing/releasing isn't the same thing as producing the show from scratch.


Show me where I said "produce from scratch". Please. I didn't think so. Nor did you qualify your criteria with a "from scratch" definition. I'll reprint my words exactly. I said: "a release IN Japan automatically assumes a PRODUCTION team in Japan." (emphasis added)

We don't say Korean/Chinese animation is an anime.


I see. Having a title in the Anime Database doesn't make MAL say its anime at all.

However, we feel they are similar enough to include them in our database. So why not allow every single show that shares similar traits to anime? The answer is simple. Because the definition could get way too broad that way.


I would say allowing Chinese/Korean is overbroad as it is. But as you didn't actually refute (you practically reinforced) my point on this matter, I have nothing else worth saying on this particular statement of yours.


Wrong. For Japanese "anime" means every animation ever made, in the whole world.


I said nothing of the Japanese use. If you inferred that I did, allow me to rephrase: The term 'anime' is a Japanese word. Around the world it is used to describe animated works out of Japan.

Wrong. Anime isn't just an animation, is it.


Huh? Seriously, this statement doesn't make sense to me given the provided quotation. If I were to take an educated guess, I assume you're nit-picking that just because something is "animated" doesn't make it "anime". Assuming that was even the point of in my quoted statement, sorry: technically it would be if we take your own words on the Japanese use to be true. In either case, again, the point you are apparently contradicting was not part of any argument of mine. Allow me to address it again more directly: there's no point in qualifying the guideline with "for the Japanese market".

I remember seeing Shrek at the top of the best selling animation titles in Japan, before many anime shows.


Your point being what? I don't recall mentioning best seller lists of any kind. Allow me to recheck.
>>>Animation companies to this day list their collaborative works in their production history, works like the Last Unicorn have received attention at Otakon and other major anime conventions, and most independent sources that have actually seen and reviewed works like the Last Unicorn categorize it as "anime".<<<

Yep, I thought so. Now for an actual on-point follow-up, I don't recall seeing Shrek on the viewing list of an anime convention, nor in the production history of any anime company, nor have any third party sources classified it as anime. Want to try again?

Because the line has to be drawn somewhere.


Yep.
>>>Please note these have been written as general guidelines only. The site administrator, database administrators and anime moderators reserve the right to append, remove and change the following rules as they see fit to maintain an orderly and consistent database.<<<

So the line means excluding a handful of works actually made in Japan, by some of the most reputed industry companies and their workers, in favor of a definition that includes works not even relevant to the anime industry (out of Korea and China).


Or whatever the moderators want.

Oh, well, whatever. In any case, on to one last note.

alexvoda said:

5. @ Mr_Panda: I believe you are mistaken on one point. Japanese studios also outsource parts of their production process to other countries in order to cut costs.


I am aware of this. It's becoming more common, but again I said "in general" to accommodate the back catalog of titles already in existence.
~ Mr. Panda // Twitter: @ManlyBats
~ The Anime Historian
~ Fleet Admiral, Manly Battleships®
Ask Mr. Panda Thread
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Dec 9, 2009 10:50 AM
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@Mr_Panda
As you failed to explain, even in your reply to me, what you meant by "create", I can only assume you meant what I iterated in my post. In which case, yes I mean "influenced".
& a clarification of
freedoleen said:
Wrong. Anime isn't just an animation, is it.

By creating I mean producing from scratch and that includes: directing, writing the script, planning, drawing the storyboard, producing the sound and music, planning, editing and much, much more (screenshot of the process of adding anime staff on MAL). And yes, of course also all jobs animators do. If anime is influenced by a Western work it solely means that the original work/concept isn't from Japan. However, please notice the difference between the original work and the actual work that needs to be done by the staff working on the anime. It's not like Shakespeare wrote the dialogues for Romeo x Juliet. Hence the "influenced" part.

Of course not the whole staff has to be Japanese to see their work as an anime. But if all major work is done in USA, except for the jobs only animators do, it's more like the U.S. company hires the Japanese animators to animate the show for them.
Credits of The Hobbit. Please notice that the Japanese names appear only (with one exception) beside the jobs related to animating.

Show me where I said "produce from scratch". Please. I didn't think so. Nor did you qualify your criteria with a "from scratch" definition. I'll reprint my words exactly. I said: "a release IN Japan automatically assumes a PRODUCTION team in Japan." (emphasis added)

You didn't say that of course. It was a little provocation, because I have no idea what do you want to prove by saying that "a release IN Japan automatically assumes a PRODUCTION team in Japan." Having a production team in Japan that translates/produces the dubbing/releases and wasn't involved in the creation process feels slightly unrelated to the issue.

freedoleen said:
We don't say Korean/Chinese animation is an anime.

I see. Having a title in the Anime Database doesn't make MAL say its anime at all.

Well, we have manwha and manhua in the Manga Database as well.

freedoleen said:
Wrong. For Japanese "anime" means every animation ever made, in the whole world.

I said nothing of the Japanese use. If you inferred that I did, allow me to rephrase: The term 'anime' is a Japanese word. Around the world it is used to describe animated works out of Japan.

Okay. You weren't very clear about this, my bad.

freedoleen said:
I remember seeing Shrek at the top of the best selling animation titles in Japan, before many anime shows.

Your point being what? I don't recall mentioning best seller lists of any kind. Allow me to recheck.
>>>Animation companies to this day list their collaborative works in their production history, works like the Last Unicorn have received attention at Otakon and other major anime conventions, and most independent sources that have actually seen and reviewed works like the Last Unicorn categorize it as "anime".<<<

Yep, I thought so. Now for an actual on-point follow-up, I don't recall seeing Shrek on the viewing list of an anime convention, nor in the production history of any anime company, nor have any third party sources classified it as anime. Want to try again?

My point was that if some animation gains popularity in Japan (in any way) it doesn't mean it's an anime.

freedoleen said:
Because the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Yep.
>>>Please note these have been written as general guidelines only. The site administrator, database administrators and anime moderators reserve the right to append, remove and change the following rules as they see fit to maintain an orderly and consistent database.<<<

So the line means excluding a handful of works actually made in Japan, by some of the most reputed industry companies and their workers, in favor of a definition that includes works not even relevant to the anime industry (out of Korea and China).

In The Hobbit's case it's "animated in Japan". See the first paragraph of my post.

Or whatever the moderators want.

We want a consistent database.
Modified by freedoleen, Dec 9, 2009 11:19 AM
 
Dec 9, 2009 12:02 PM

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freedoleen said:
Or whatever the moderators want.

We want a consistent database.
Here's a good question:
Clobclark said:
I'm still confused at what MAL actually is. If it is a casual place to keep up with what anime you are watching I can see why you would want to merge everything together, if it is a serious database on anime then it would make the most sense to split everything up that has been altered (shows having different episode counts, storylines etc. etc.) because they are truly a different entity than that of it's original.
Quoted from this topic, which seems to keep getting posted back & forth here. I posted my preference over there, but I'm still curious as to what the consensus is among the DB Mods.
脱ぎません!_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .

 
 
Dec 9, 2009 4:43 PM
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@JadeMatrix: A mix of both, actually. The site is called "MyAnimeList" and allowing users to list anime they watched/plan to watch is the main purpose of it. However, at the same time we want to provide users with a dependable and consistent database. Perhaps some compromises are being made because of that, but ultimately our goal would be to maintain and expand our site as a whole.

When you log out, on the main page it says:
MyAnimeList.net is an anime and manga community that introduces you to people, anime, manga, and helps you organize your collections.

There is also a community part, but this is something entirely up to you guys...
 
Dec 9, 2009 11:33 PM

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Until people/things that aren't related to anime/manga are removed.... the databases will be ridiculous.

Novels and random novel authors should not be in the database. What's next, live action dramas because they influenced a show?
 
Dec 10, 2009 8:07 AM
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We do not allow novels. We allow the inclusion of light novels, and primarily only those that have had anime or manga adapted from them. New people do not enter the database because of this; these same people would be credited for the adaptations for "Story" or "Original Creator".

Light novels are a bit different than novels. They are often serialised in magazines prior to publication, much like manga. They are illustrated, often by published mangaka. And they have many adaptations. We are not the only manga database to include these works. You can find entries on other sites such as MangaUpdates, and you can even find translated/scanlated copies of these light novels on english manga sites.

You could argue: why not visual novels? Dramas? These require completely separate databases. Light novels are very close to manga and thus can be included quite easily into the manga database. And as we are only collecting adaptations, they are truly a very minimal amount of entries.

At this time, we are not considering removing light novels. If you would like to see them removed and hope to discuss this further, please feel free to make a thread in the manga support board.
 
Dec 10, 2009 12:22 PM
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freedoleen said:

MyAnimeList.net is an anime and manga community that introduces you to people, anime, manga, and helps you organize your collections.

There is also a community part, but this is something entirely up to you guys...



I think there should be a larger focus on the anime recommendation system then. To me, it could use several improvements such as

1. Before you recommend an anime it says at the bottom "Tip: Don't recommend sequels or other related series". Looking at Dragon Ball Z (U.S.) it has DBGT, DB Kai, and just about all the Dragon Ball specials on the list. I think it shouldn't be a tip but a forced implement so that when someone tries to link those together it tells you that you can't because they are related.

2. Some sort of order of similarity such as Yu Yu Hakusho is 80% similar to DBZ and One Piece is 40% similar to DBZ.

3. Genre definers. MAL mods (not users) pick the top 5 anime from each genre and define them as the magnus opus's of that particular genre. This would be great for people who likes one particular genre that they may be new at and don't want to sift through shows that may just be full of fan boys/girls.

4. Detailed recommendations. The reviews on this site are amazing and most people really put a lot of effort into them, but I don't see that same kind of passion for the recommendations. This could be fixed by adding to the recommendations of how many genres particular shows have in common.

But yeah, good job on the site, it's pretty much the only site I use daily and it look an feel is crisp, I can only hope to help everyone out.



oh, and @Jadematrix, I agree with you on the casual model of the site.
 
Dec 10, 2009 2:12 PM

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There isn't much we can do about your suggestions as they don't pertain to the management of the database but instead to features on the site. That's all on Xinil's end; we don't mess with code. So your post would fit better here. I can still address a few things however.
Clobclark said:
1. Before you recommend an anime it says at the bottom "Tip: Don't recommend sequels or other related series". Looking at Dragon Ball Z (U.S.) it has DBGT, DB Kai, and just about all the Dragon Ball specials on the list. I think it shouldn't be a tip but a forced implement so that when someone tries to link those together it tells you that you can't because they are related.
If you come across these types of recommendations, feel free to use the report function at the bottom right of each rec and it'll be removed ASAP. We don't have the man power to go through the entire database and weed out every single related rec on our own. Anyway, I've removed all the Dragon Ball related recs on DBZ (U.S.)'s page for the time being so thanks for letting us know in a way.
3. Genre definers. MAL mods (not users) pick the top 5 anime from each genre and define them as the magnus opus's of that particular genre. This would be great for people who likes one particular genre that they may be new at and don't want to sift through shows that may just be full of fan boys/girls.
You can already sort advanced search by genre and then score. Personally I think leaving us to pick what defines the genre would be a huge mistake. Staff actually has rather diverse taste in anime and manga. Not only would a consensus be hard to reach, users would be likely to disagree with our choices anyway.
4. Detailed recommendations. The reviews on this site are amazing and most people really put a lot of effort into them, but I don't see that same kind of passion for the recommendations. This could be fixed by adding to the recommendations of how many genres particular shows have in common.
I actually don't see how this would help. You're currently two clicks away from comparing genres and even then, genre doesn't define the similarities between two anime or manga. I mean, Kara no Kyoukai and Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka both have the romance tag. I wouldn't say those two are anywhere near comparable in setting, plot, atmosphere, direction, etc.
 
Dec 10, 2009 3:17 PM

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Clobclark said:
I think there should be a larger focus on the anime recommendation system then. To me, it could use several improvements such as

1. Before you recommend an anime it says at the bottom "Tip: Don't recommend sequels or other related series". Looking at Dragon Ball Z (U.S.) it has DBGT, DB Kai, and just about all the Dragon Ball specials on the list. I think it shouldn't be a tip but a forced implement so that when someone tries to link those together it tells you that you can't because they are related.

I agree, not being able to make such recommendations would be good, as well as a relief to the mods' job I guess.

Clobclark said:
2. Some sort of order of similarity such as Yu Yu Hakusho is 80% similar to DBZ and One Piece is 40% similar to DBZ.

I don't see the point of doing something like this. Even more importantly, I don't see how you would make something like what you're suggesting. Were you talking about some sort of form made by the user writing the recommandation maybe?

Clobclark said:
3. Genre definers. MAL mods (not users) pick the top 5 anime from each genre and define them as the magnus opus's of that particular genre. This would be great for people who likes one particular genre that they may be new at and don't want to sift through shows that may just be full of fan boys/girls.

I strongly oppose this one. Every user on MAL (including the mods of course) has different taste, and labelling some titles as 'the magnus opus' because of the opinion of a very restricted number of such members feels very wrong to me. I don't really see its purpouse either since you already have the advanced search and Top Series page.

Xjellocross said:
Clobclark said:
4. Detailed recommendations. The reviews on this site are amazing and most people really put a lot of effort into them, but I don't see that same kind of passion for the recommendations. This could be fixed by adding to the recommendations of how many genres particular shows have in common.
I actually don't see how this would help. You're currently two clicks away from comparing genres and even then, genre doesn't define the similarities between two anime or manga. I mean, Kara no Kyoukai and Akane-iro ni Somaru Saka both have the romance tag. I wouldn't say those two are anywhere near comparable in setting, plot, atmosphere, direction, etc.

I agree with Xjellocross here.
------------------------
Database Guidelines
Denials: anime | manga
Modifications: anime | manga
-----------------------------------
 
Dec 10, 2009 4:28 PM
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Loxaris said:

I strongly oppose this one. Every user on MAL (including the mods of course) has different taste, and labelling some titles as 'the magnus opus' because of the opinion of a very restricted number of such members feels very wrong to me. I don't really see its purpouse either since you already have the advanced search and Top Series page.


Why I say this is because I can't trust what the top shows are because people who may know nothing about anime can rate shows. Mods are pretty much going to have a strong grasp on what is what and I would be much more interested in a consensus of their opinions rather than the users.



Xjellocross said:
There isn't much we can do about your suggestions as they don't pertain to the management of the database but instead to features on the site. That's all on Xinil's end; we don't mess with code. So your post would fit better here. I can still address a few things however.


Yeah, in my mind I just assumed the mods and the coders were best buds and just sorta told each other what needed to be done so my bad I'll go post it in suggestions, thanks.
 
 
Dec 11, 2009 10:22 AM

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Clobclark said:
Loxaris said:

I strongly oppose this one. Every user on MAL (including the mods of course) has different taste, and labelling some titles as 'the magnus opus' because of the opinion of a very restricted number of such members feels very wrong to me. I don't really see its purpouse either since you already have the advanced search and Top Series page.


Why I say this is because I can't trust what the top shows are because people who may know nothing about anime can rate shows. Mods are pretty much going to have a strong grasp on what is what and I would be much more interested in a consensus of their opinions rather than the users.


Hey, if it were up to me, I'd have Sailor Moon in the Top five.

Take a look at all the mods top Anime and Manga. It's a very eclectic group, And that's the point really. When looking into mods, we try to fill a gap or a need that the mod team needs. We want the mod team to cover all different genre's, types, and likes. Because of that, narrowing the DB down to 5 anime/manga that we all agree on would be nearly impossible. (I mean, coming up with these guidelines took many months in itself) I wouldn't want the pressure myself. It would be all Shoujo all that way for me. The Mecha lovers would kill me ^^:

 
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