FloatsBoats said: ImmaMuggleYou said: True this is an issue that goes beyond anime of course Is it an issue though? To me, gender roles are often in place because it's usually the best way to do things, like say, a father does the work and a mother looks after the baby. It's when these gender roles are locked in place and we are unable to break the mold without criticism it becomes an issue. Who's to say the mother doesn't want to work as well? And gender roles can be applied to other things that could be less appealing to many people. |
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hanamichi1031 said: Two recent examples that come to mind: That girl in Btooom who kept insisting every episode that she'd "rather die pure" than be raped. Only silly, shallow men would ever come up with such an idea. it was offensive and intolerable, and I dropped the show at ep 3. That's just straight up bullshit. There are many women in many different cultures, that holds the concept of purity, very highly, and would rather die, than get raped. No need for the sweeping over-generalizations, you aren't a representive for a whole gender, and it's not like this was played as a general message in Btooom, it was the experience and thoughts of one female character, who happened to be traumatized by her close friends getting raped, so it's not random either. That girl in Gantz in ep 1 or 2 who appeared in the room naked with her wrists slit only to be ogled by a bunch of men and eaten out by a dog a few minutes later. This level of sexual objectification is just depressing. I couldn't bear to watch the show a second longer and immediately dropped it. There is a lot of nudity and sexualization in Gantz in general, be it male or female. But since it's aimed at a male demographic, it's obvious, who would have the higher ratio. The girl being naked, wasn't just for the sake of it. It was to show, how the two main male characters would react, because there were a couple of thugs in the room, and they tried to rape her. One of the two main male characters, is an idealistic, who helped her, the other one is a selfish apathetic person. The dog part is just black comedy and fanservice, doesn't mean much. |
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tsudecimo said: There are many women in many different cultures, that holds the concept of purity, very highly, and would rather die, than get raped. Please name some cultures where women would rather die than live. Maybe you are uneducated or too young to understand but this is a very misinformed and offensive statement to rape victims and women who have survived traumatic sexual violence, worldwide. The dog part is just black comedy and fanservice, doesn't mean much. My point exactly. That is why it's gratuitous, pointless and tasteless. It would be okay if this girl was healthy and in control of the situation but she slit her wrists just minutes before. To objectify this character and use her for fanservice at this point in the story is stooping really low. |
hanamichi1031Jun 13, 2015 4:30 AM
| Sometime a "sexist scene" is used to provide social commentary. It doesn't necessarily mean that the work itself is "sexist". Believe it or not. Sexism does exist in reality. Saying that "showing reality" is inherently sexist is ridiculous. It's only bad if the series clearly (and I really mean CLEARLY, which means NOT an overstretched "interpretation") shows that sexism is "right". That's where a lot of "criticism" falls completely flat. Many feminists go into rage if some sexist element is shown in the fictional work. Yes, that may be a "sexist scene" that is being depicted, but NO, that does not mean that the work "promotes sexism". |
Grey-ZoneJun 13, 2015 6:02 AM
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| Haha. Ah. |
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| I've seen enough movies and read enough books to be able to tell the difference between social commentary and a skewed plot, thanks. A shallow depiction of a female character falls in the latter category. And not to be all nitpicky but Grey-Zone said: Many feminists go into rage is also questionable as though it's only women and gasp, feminists, harboring some sort of irrational uncontrollable anger who would bother to care. You could've just said "many people get upset"; if I'm not wrong the creator of this thread is also male. And it's true there's male sexism as well, I cringe every time I hear a character say something like "you're so unmanly". But those kinds of shows tend to be shallow and uninteresting and are easy to avoid. |
tsudecimo said: Haha. Ah. No cultures where women would rather die than live, I take it? |
hanamichi1031 said: I've seen enough movies and read enough books to be able to tell the difference between social commentary and a skewed plot, thanks. A shallow depiction of a female character falls in the latter category. So I assume "skewed plot" = "not fitting your own ideal world"? You make it sound as if "shallow people" (or escpacially people who APPEAR shallow) don't exist (they do exist). If I understood you wrong, feel free to correct me. |
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Grey-Zone said: hanamichi1031 said: I've seen enough movies and read enough books to be able to tell the difference between social commentary and a skewed plot, thanks. A shallow depiction of a female character falls in the latter category. So I assume "skewed plot" = "not fitting your own ideal world"? You make it sound as if "shallow people" (or escpacially people who APPEAR shallow) don't exist (they do exist). If I understood you wrong, feel free to correct me. By skewed plot, I mean an incorrect and prejudiced depiction of the world. A shallow depiction of a person and a shallow character are two very different things, do I even need to say this? I'll be more specific and use the example of the girl in btooom, for arguments sake. First of all, when you think about it, the very basis of this bizarre notion of "purity" is the idea that women are objects which can be owned. If a woman is touched by any man other than her owner, she is "impure". I'm sure this was the mindset (subconcious or not) of the people who created this pitiful female character nonsensically obsessed with "being pure". To women in real life, the concept simply does not make sense. How and what part of a woman is unpure if she is raped? She may be traumatized and she may lack a hymen if she was a virgin but unpure? What's more is that the traumatic past of the character is used as an excuse for nudity and fanservice which highlights how insensitive the show is. But again, this alone isn't sexism, the sexism here is the unrealistic depiction of a woman who is the heroine of the story and supposed to be everything that is thematically "good" (as opposed to evil). Her strong will to die rather than be raped is portrayed as noble and heroic, when it is senseless and manic. Because all people everywhere, unless depressed and suicidal, prefer to live rather than die. And women are people. |
hanamichi1031Jun 13, 2015 7:41 AM
hanamichi1031 said: By skewed plot, I mean an incorrect and prejudiced depiction of the world. A shallow depiction of a person and a shallow character are two very different things, do I even need to say this? "Shallow depiction of a person" requires you to know that this person is actually NOT shallow and I am not sure how you can know that this character is not a shallow character in the first place. Or are you speaking about "shallow depiction of all background characters in the entire series"? Because that's a yet entirely different issue and is simply "bad writing" or if it's limited to female characters, it may simply be the inability of the author to write proper female characters (which applies a lot of times). |
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hanamichi1031 said: I'll be more specific and use the example of the girl in btooom, for arguments sake. First of all, when you think about it, the very basis of this bizarre notion of "purity" is the idea that women are objects which can be owned. If a woman is touched by any man other than her owner, she is "impure". I'm sure this was the mindset (subconcious or not) of the people who created this pitiful female character nonsensically obsessed with "being pure". To women in real life, the concept simply does not make sense. How and what part of a woman is unpure if she is raped? She may be traumatized and she may lack a hymen if she was a virgin but unpure? What's more is that the traumatic past of the character is used as an excuse for nudity and fanservice which highlights how insensitive the show is. But again, this alone isn't sexism, the sexism here is the unrealistic depiction of a woman who is the heroine of the story and supposed to be everything that is thematically "good" (as opposed to evil). Her strong will to die rather than be raped is portrayed as noble and heroic, when it is senseless and manic. Because all people everywhere, unless depressed and suicidal, prefer to live rather than die. And women are people. I see what you mean, but isn't that just shame mixed with an extreme (circumstancial, I mean they have all been betrayed and left among each other for a "killing game") sense of despair. It's a very unrelistic scene in the first place. The people there have NOT lived in such an environment for years, but got there from the "first world". It's definitly not something where "realism" can be measured. Before I can say how it seems to me, I may have to re-read that scene to say more about it. |
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Uppathebest said: Gender roles are not just present in anime manga or Japan, but in the whole society. They stem from the emotional and phyisical differences between genders ( e.g. men are usually physically stronger than women, or women are more sensitive creatures - aka feminine instinct and maternity - ). What I find weird is not that these differences are potrayed in animes, but they are exaggerated to the point of being ridiculous . If I were you, I would rather be worried about the lack of creativity, imagination, input and effort that japanese anime directors are putting in their own works. For instance, I can find tens or hundreds of animes similar to Nisekoi. That is the real problem I am seeing :(. Wtf How much of gender roles can take from actual content, nothing becyase they are never the driving force for writing, Nisekoi is about a love story, how much do the gender roles affect the story and its progression, because last i checked it didnt affect shit, as it wasnt portraying genders in a specific way. Wandering son and similar works is where the use of gender roles is relevant and not the senseless rambling of idiots in Internet foruns screaming muh sexism. Unbelievable. |
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| Whoever keeps removing my replies without even telling me really needs to cut that shit out. ImmaMuggleYou said: Nihilfist said: Do you seriously lack self-awareness this badly? You're projecting so hard it hurts. If you think that calling someone a SJW is immature and unproductive, how is calling someone a sexist or racist any god damn different? Except I never called anyone here sexist or racist...? That is complete and utter bullshit. ImmaMuggleYou said: Well the anime industry is sexist, its clear as day. If you're going to bald-faced fucking lie to me, at least be smart enough to remove the evidence. |
NihilfistJun 13, 2015 12:16 PM
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| >Nisekoi has nothing to do with gender roles >Nisekoi >Harem with physically abusive tsundere and a whole bunch of other useless girls the author threw in when sales were slowing down LOL |
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tsudecimo said: how much do the gender roles affect the story and its progression, Isn't half of Tsugumi's entire character based on the insecurity that she isn't feminine enough? I don't think Nisekoi is the shining example of progressiveness you're looking for. |
Red_Keys said: >Nisekoi has nothing to do with gender roles >Nisekoi >Harem with physically abusive tsundere and a whole bunch of other useless girls the author threw in when sales were slowing down LOL And where are the gender roles in that? |
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| Hello, MAL, my first post here. On why focus on anime, separately from other media: to me, anime is a bit in the undefined category, an "anything goes" zone; it's like a lot of people don't take anime seriously, while it has quite a lot of traction, which puts anime into a unique position with more flexible boundaries, and power to subvert prevalent social structures. That is my perspective as an outsider, what things are like in Japan I can't even imagine, BUT I believe that this intense attention that foreign audience pays to anime in some (limited) way forms what path its development will take, 'cause attention has this effect on things. On gender-reversing: when a girl character acts like a stereotypical guy, that's not really breaking gender norms, just mixing 'em up. It might be better than straight-up gender stereotypes, but not at all ideal. Also, it betrays lack of thought put into character. On "soft stereotyping": that may be even more damaging, because it's less conspicuous. Soft or hard, there are characters and there are stereotypes, so fine-tune your radars, comrades, and let's push for better writing. On Steven Universe, 'cause it was mentioned earlier: to my limited sensibility, this show undermines gender stereotypes without sabotaging narrative better than anything I've ever seen or read. |
Imaishi said: ...And where are the gender roles in that? LOL |
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Imaishi said: Ohhh, so the numbers must be equal for the genders to be handled properly and for it not to be sexist? total bs I'm just going to list stuff because I just finished up-to where the manga is, so there will be spoilers for those not caught up. |
CrimefridgeJun 15, 2015 12:28 AM
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
Red_Keys said: Imaishi said: ...And where are the gender roles in that? LOL LMAO LELELELE XDDDDDDDD |
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| Shitty feminists trying to destroy the foundation of entertainment now. Sad. Makes the real feminists out there look bad you know. |
| I love my gurlz |
Cale_ said: tsudecimo said: how much do the gender roles affect the story and its progression, Isn't half of Tsugumi's entire character based on the insecurity that she isn't feminine enough? I don't think Nisekoi is the shining example of progressiveness you're looking for. I didnt really watch all of it, I'm just pointing out that the main plot of the series and its main love triangle has nothing to do with gender roles, the very existence of a violent tsundere like the blonde, counters that. I wasnt looking for progressiveness, just pointing out thay gender rolea dont affect the story and its progression and characters. |
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Crimefridge said: Imaishi said: Ohhh, so the numbers must be equal for the genders to be handled properly and for it not to be sexist? total bs I'm just going to list stuff because I just finished up-to where the manga is, so there will be spoilers for those not caught up. Actually pitou is not confirmed female, a trap like character. And killua doesn't have sisters. While kinda extreme and exaggerated, finally somebody sees the obvious. Which just shows that how people feel about show influence their views on sexism and other bs like that. I would put FT and countless shounen series over hxh when it comes to female characters. |
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tsudecimo said: Actually pitou is not confirmed female, a trap like character. And killua doesn't have sisters. Pitou is not confirmed, sure. I consider the scene where she's protecting the injured girl and they draw the parallel "like a mother cat defending her kitten" to be evidence enough that Pitou is a she, but perhaps Royal Guards are androgynous, as no mention of sexual attraction is ever brought up from a royal guards perspective or mating unlike the other ants (which could be explained through their hierarchy process: royal guards only purpose is the king, not expanding the species). Alluka, the "sister" I mentioned, on the other hand seems more controversial. On one hand, there's sources that claim all Zoldyck children are born men. Yet, Killua treats Alluka like a sister, looks like a girl, has flashbacks looking like a girl, and has girl toys and decor despite the family seemingly treating "it" like a monster. I would argue that they are female until proven otherwise, but I suppose they aren't critical enough a part of my argument that I must defend their gender. |
CrimefridgeJun 15, 2015 1:31 AM
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
Crimefridge said: [/quote]Imaishi said: Ohhh, so the numbers must be equal for the genders to be handled properly and for it not to be sexist? total bs I'm just going to list stuff Well as you can see, not only did you miss Imaishi's point(numbers are not important which is why Naruto can be considered sexist but not HXH) but all what you said is wrong. |
AgafinJun 15, 2015 3:51 PM
Agafin said: Crimefridge said: None of the main four protagonists are female So? Did you even get Imaishi's point? Are mahou shoujo sexist against males? Following the logic of sexism in fiction, yes. Following the logic of tumblr feminist no (because nothing can be sexist against men). What? Hisoka is similar to her in all those traits but you decide that he doesn't count because he is chaotic neutral? What the hell kind of argument is that? Talk about double standards. Gon and Killua were extremely creeped by Palm too, either you are just making stuff up or have selective memory. Her point was that palm is in the good guys side, Hisoka isn't. Though it's not like the ''good guys'' are saints. The protagonist himself is not that great morally. Crimefridge said: Palm?Zero people in the Chimera Ant combat force were female She said combat. Palm primary role, was a spy, that used sex to get in. Crimefridge said: Because Palm had been captured by the guards.Zero of the business-people displayed during the chat about eliminating the King were female in the office ??? Palm isn't a bussiness woman/leader whatever those guys were, she wouldn't be one of the people who told Netero his orders, if she was captured or not. Komugi was very strong, just not physically in contrast to Meruem, that sure flew over your head. How was Komugi strong? I've seen you before, refer to her as one of the ''strong'' female characters. Whats mentally strong about her? she was just a plot device, she had no idea what's going on, but just did the one thing in her life, she knows how to do, play Gungi, she wasn't even aware, that Meruem wasn't a human. Machi is physically stronger than the leader Chrollo. I have yet to see that in other similar battle shonen. She's also physically stronger than Nobunaga (an enhancer) Bonolenov and Shalnark. The other females are weaker physically but that's statistics and biology for you. Your point is moot. Umm. Sakura is physically stronger than Naruto and Sasuke. Tsunade is physically stronger than every Kage (aside from her Grandfather and possibly the second hokage tho that can be debated) and stronger than Orochimaru and Jiraiya. Physical strength over male characters is not that unique of concept, being overall better might be. Crimefridge said: Why shouldn't I count Pitou? What about Paku?Final boss of an arc hasn't been a woman one time. Unless you count Neferpitou getting wrecked by cursed Gon a fight... You just said that Pitou isn't confirmed female. Technically all the CA ants are males, except the queen, so the arguments using that as reference points are very pointless. You mean Pakunda? she isn't a boss of or a main antagonist of an arc, like Meruem, Chrollo, Hisoka, Genthru, Partison (?) Crimefridge said: Like Paku, Bisky or Cheadle?Women don't deserve the spotlight When did Bisky have a spotlight? Pakunda was the only female character that had a spotlight and significant focus and development. Cheadle, the one who was handed the position, and was only a plot device, like Leorio, as far as the battle between Ging and Paritson went? not really a spotlight, she was passive. Crimefridge said: Debunked. Tonpa and Milluki are the bravest and most likeable characters ever.Women are boring side characters You know, his point is that there are more boring side characters who are females, than males. This doesn't necessairly imply that all male characters are the opposite. Same goes for the rest of his generalizations about ''women''. First time seeing you get upset over a post :o |
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tsudecimo said: Because those are the weakest arguments I've ever seen.First time seeing you get upset over a post :o |
AgafinJun 15, 2015 3:55 PM
| SJWs and male feminists should stop watching anime. Just my 2 cents. |
PoeticJustice said: They should stop watching everything because everything to them is sexist.SJWs and male feminists should stop watching anime. Just my 2 cents. |
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| Hunter x Hunter spoilers below, all the way to the end. Agafin said: tsudecimo said: Because those are the worst arguments I've ever seen.First time seeing you get upset over a post :o I think if you want to insult an argument, using language like "worst arguments" makes you look childish and your mindset going into the debate weak. And by the way? Even though I think Hunter x Hunter was a mediocre, overhyped anime that is overrated, I still had the common decency to put spoilers in tags. |
CrimefridgeJun 15, 2015 4:13 PM
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
LordFishKing said: Imaishi said: Raku: I am a male harem protagonist.And where are the gender roles in that? Chitoge: I hate Raku but I must fall in love with him because I am the harem. Marika: Raku has forgotten me, I haven't talked to him in years but I must follow him because I am the harem. Onodera: I can't even hold a proper conversation with Raku but I must love him because I am the harem. Tsugumi: I hate Raku, I was raised to act like a boy, I actually love Chitoge but because I have breasts, I must love Raku because I am the harem. "bad writing" =/= "sexist" If you want to claim that it's more than just bad writing you have to provide evidence for it. All your post showed was that the author appearantly isn't skilled enough to write a believable reason for someone to fall in love with someone else, even less so with multiple cases in parallel. |
Grey-ZoneJun 15, 2015 3:10 PM
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PoeticJustice said: SJWs and male feminists should stop watching anime. Just my 2 cents. Either you haven't been watching enough anime if you really feel this way, or this is a completely pointless thing to say. So much of anime is positive and life-affirming to all people everywhere. Members are arguing here for the sake of the discussion topic. Some shows clearly lack thought; the same can be said for books, movies, whatever. I don't think pointing these out makes anyone a sjw. Although I have to say to the people who are complaining about HxH--if that show can't please you, I really don't know what will. |
Crimefridge said: Hunter x Hunter spoilers below, all the way to the end. Well my last post mysteriously disappeared so no point of putting more effort into rebutting nonsense, but just wanted to point out a few glaring flaws in your last paragraph. I think your hate of two boys being friends (which you refer to as "boy love softcore") is leading you to take a stubbornly myopic view of the show. Now that's true sexism. |
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| @Crimefridge This thread is about Gender roles/sexism while most of what you just wrote (the reply to Pouf/Youpi's maternal parallels) is you telling us how you dislike the arc and the various character/plot decisins taken. That's good and all and I could even have fun discussing that with you but the thing is, that's off topic. So mind telling me, if you think the guards are androgynous, what was the point of that complain in relation to the thread? PS -You misquoted. It's not tsudecimo but me who said that. -I meant weakest -Too lazy to tag, sorry |
Neesi said: FloatsBoats said: Is it an issue though? To me, gender roles are often in place because it's usually the best way to do things, like say, a father does the work and a mother looks after the baby. It's when these gender roles are locked in place and we are unable to break the mold without criticism it becomes an issue. Who's to say the mother doesn't want to work as well? And gender roles can be applied to other things that could be less appealing to many people. Yeah that's my point - " It's when these gender roles are locked in place and we are unable to break the mold without criticism it becomes an issue." To put it simply, it's not the gender roles themselves that are a problem in society, it's the fact that some are unable to do anything but fulfill their "gender role" because they have no choice otherwise. |
PoeticJustice said: SJWs and male feminists should stop watching anime. Just my 2 cents. This. I can't help but cringe when I read half of these rants about a work being sexist. What I think is, you can only call a work sexist if it strongly implies a gender's inferiority, which I have a hard time recalling in any anime ever. Of course, I don't count hentai because some of them are obviously sexist, but that's outside this topic. Dominance of one gender in anime is NOT sexist. This is a total absurd. The author just chose his characters to be one sex or another. Neither Madoka nor Hunter x Hunter are sexist. Making characters of a sex fit into some gender roles doesn't make the anime sexist either. If anything, the anime's world or society is sexist, and not the work itself. By such logic, you could call any historical movie or book sexist, which is of course downright retarded. |
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FloatsBoats said: Neesi said: Who's to say the mother doesn't want to work as well? And gender roles can be applied to other things that could be less appealing to many people. Yeah that's my point - " It's when these gender roles are locked in place and we are unable to break the mold without criticism it becomes an issue." To put it simply, it's not the gender roles themselves that are a problem in society, it's the fact that some are unable to do anything but fulfill their "gender role" because they have no choice otherwise. And in that regard "reversing the gender roles and 'locking in place' those reversed roles instead" is just as bad, if not worse, because some people even claim that it is somehow "better" if we got "a working wife and a househusband", which makes absolutely no sense. Note: With "it's even worse" I just mean that it's hypocritical (the people who say "reverse roles are a GOOD thing" are who I am refering to). It does not in any way mean that the "locked-in normal roles" are in some way better than the "locked-in reversed roles". |
Grey-ZoneJun 15, 2015 4:18 PM
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black1blade said: arthurhahm said: That is quite the typical view of a right-wing American. A.K.A an idiot's view. I don't think females think they are inferior so at least 50% of the human race will always disagree with you. It'd be nice if those people would stop and hear how stupid they sound regarding superiority and such. Anyhow, on the topic, Japan has strong gender roles compared to many other countries, still. Breaking free of gender roles is actually a large factor in the declining population right now. I'm not saying breaking out of gender roles is a bad thing, but it's quite literally dangerous in this circumstance. EDIT: Just adding this in here since I'm seeing some complaints about SJWs and feminism, so it came to mind. The problem with these people isn't that they're necessarily 'wrong'. It's that they're basically looking to get offended. |
Luna_SparkleJun 15, 2015 4:18 PM
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| Hunter x Hunter discussion spoilers |
CrimefridgeJun 15, 2015 5:01 PM
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
Crimefridge said: |
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| Hunter x Hunter minor spoilers ahead |
| How do people get to 2000 hours when I'm already this bored? |
| @Afagin What the hell are you talking about? Tsunade and Sakura are physically stronger that their male counterparts, this doesn't need any proof fron data books that are not even written by the authors. Naruto best physical strength comes from Sage mode which it still leagues below Sakura and Tsunade in raw power. Tsunade is capable of feats like lifting and swinging Gamabunta's tantō,[4] creating giant craters and fissures in an area by simply striking it with either her heel or finger,[5] destroying Madara Uchiha Susanoo's ribcage[6] and its sword,[7] and sending opponents flying with a flick of her finger with relative ease. Aside from the first Hokage and Sakura nobody displayed superhuman strength. |
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| i think gender roles should be publicly executed :| sorry if it sounds extreme |
| "among monsters and humans, there are only two types. Those who undergo suffering and spread it to others. And those who undergo suffering and avoid giving it to others." -Alice “Beauty is no quality in things themselves: It exists merely in the mind which contemplates them; and each mind perceives a different beauty.” David Hume “Evil is created when someone gives up on someone else. It appears when everyone gives up on someone as a lost cause and removes their path to salvation. Once they are cut off from everyone else, they become evil.” -Othinus  |
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