Which Battle Shounen is a masterpiece?
One Piece
18.9%
144
Naruto (Shippuden included)
11.4%
87
Bleach
2.8%
21
Fairy Tail
3.4%
26
Katekyo Hitman Reborn
1.1%
8
Hunter x Hunter 2011
30.3%
230
Dragon Ball Z
8.0%
61
Hokuto no Ken
1.2%
9
Yu Yu Hakusho
6.4%
49
None
16.4%
125
760 votes
| @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. |
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Nicobade said: There are no battle shonen on that poll that I would consider worthy of being a masterpiece although if there were one with potential to be, it would be One Piece depending on how the One Piece reveal and World War is handled. If FMA: B is considered a battle shonen then that is definitely a masterpiece. Hunter x Hunter is easily the next best shonen on that poll but it doesn't quite have an epic scale enough for me to consider a masterpiece. Maybe if Togashi actually starts writing again Hunter x Hunter can reach its peak and become worthy of that title. Having that "epic" scale of explosions is the reason for the downfall in the other shonen series, so I'd say that's what makes it more of a masterpiece than the rest. FMA: B feels like the king of typical shonen, but it's the original FMA that I think is the truly great product. Link_of_Hyrule said: but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. Not all of them. |
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SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Eh...but I NEVER watch battle Shounen anime. I can't stand it because the fights are always draggy imo. I'm used to reading the manga and flipping the pages quickly to get fast paced fights... Damnit hiatus. This is what I hate the most about manga. The time it takes to publish a fucking chapter.... |
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SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. FMA was great, but while it could be considered a "battle shounen", fighting and screaming are far from it's main focus. FMA is so different from the other anime in it's genre that I hesitate to group them together. Also, masterpiece is a strong word; FMA was great, but I don't know if I would say it's a masterpiece. |
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Cupquake said: SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Eh...but I NEVER watch battle Shounen anime. I can't stand it because the fights are always draggy imo. I'm used to reading the manga and flipping the pages quickly to get fast paced fights... Damnit hiatus. This is what I hate the most about manga. The time it takes to publish a fucking chapter.... That is the reason why fans of the manga dub the series "Hiatus x Hiatus". I only say this because waiting a week for a new episode isn't as bad as waiting who knows how long for a new chapter. Also, the art in the CA arc was pretty inconsistent (sometimes the art looked like napkin scribbles), and the anime fixes that. Link_of_Hyrule said: SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. FMA was great, but while it could be considered a "battle shounen", fighting and screaming are far from it's main focus. FMA is so different from the other anime in it's genre that I hesitate to group them together. Also, masterpiece is a strong word; FMA was great, but I don't know if I would say it's a masterpiece. Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. |
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judals said: RedRoseFring said: calling it filler at this point have clearly not been paying attention. It easily has one of the most intricately connected plots in shounen. The only ones that seem like a continuous filler at this point are Hunter x Hunter & Fairy Tail. People can easily replace any of these names with the other. It's just a bold claim not backed up. Could you clarify on the "intricate" part? Because believe me, many episodes in one piece feel very fillerish. You really need clarification on that? Many arcs are tied to each other by a long list of points, and each one by overarching themes. I'll just pick one like Thriller Bark because of the obvious Laboon connection, but it also included ties to: Shichibukai as a whole Science division of the marines Wano Kingdom Zoro and Mihawk Oars Lola Kaido While in HxH and FT, things just seem to happen on the fly. After the Hunter exams, everyone goes their separate ways only to come back later to face the Spiders, then depart once more into a game, then face magical creatures that arose for another occassion. Obviously that's an oversimplification, but the events to follow in a way that suggests whatever happens, happens. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. FMA was great, but while it could be considered a "battle shounen", fighting and screaming are far from it's main focus. FMA is so different from the other anime in it's genre that I hesitate to group them together. Also, masterpiece is a strong word; FMA was great, but I don't know if I would say it's a masterpiece. SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. That's like saying all romances are the same thing, kissing and woman-chasing. Or all seinen are the same thing; dark and edgy and 2deep4 u.It's a generalization that portrays the speaker as someone who has no idea what they are talking about. And everyone of those series listed above (except maybe Bleach which I'm not too sure of) have entire episodes without a single fight. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Link_of_Hyrule said: Lots of shows that aren't shounen have fighting and screaming. It's just a stereotype. A cliche.Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc. Almost literally all of them don't have fighting and screaming in every single episode.SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. |
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Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: Lots of shows that aren't shounen have fighting and screaming. It's just a stereotype. A cliche.Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. You're right; a cliche that is particularly bad in "battle shounens". They are all formulaic and ridiculously similar, which is why I don't think it's right to dub any of them a "masterpiece". |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: Trigun, Hunter x Hunter, Hajime no Ippo, Gintama, Naruto and so on.Link_of_Hyrule said: SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. FMA was great, but while it could be considered a "battle shounen", fighting and screaming are far from it's main focus. FMA is so different from the other anime in it's genre that I hesitate to group them together. Also, masterpiece is a strong word; FMA was great, but I don't know if I would say it's a masterpiece. SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. |
IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc. Almost literally all of them don't have fighting and screaming in every single episode.SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". I mean that it is rare to see an episode that doesn't have those things in all of those shows |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: No, it's not that rare. How many have you watched? One? You're list only says you've watched FMAB, none of the other popular or even unpopular ones.IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc. Almost literally all of them don't have fighting and screaming in every single episode.SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". I mean that it is rare to see an episode that doesn't have those things in all of those shows |
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JD2411 said: Cupquake said: one criticism I have of one piece is that the series as a whole feels like a big filler, or at least some episodes and arcs do because all they literally do is travel to an island, beat up the bad guys and leavesebrina8 said: if you think one piece is a masterpiece, then you are a fanboy because you are ignoring it's gigantic flaws and proceeding to claim it's a masterpiece. this is no head scratching matter. I never said a masterpiece has to have no flaws. A masterpiece for me just has to be somethign that I consider to be outstanding and unique. Fine, I'll write about why I believe that One Piece is most deserving of the title, compared to other series listed and you can dispute my claims. That fair? 1) Straight forward and organized plot that gives a clear direction of where the story is heading. The island to island travel to reach the final island gives us a clear goal and idea of where the series will end. Better than stuff like Fairy Tail and Bleach which seems to be just wandering around randomly. The fruit powers are organized very neatly in a way that is easy to understand. 2) Unique and creative Islands keeps the reader constantly interested. Each new arc literally brings a whole new world. The beginning of an arc explains a bit about each island and it's inhabitants. 3) Pandaman. Stuff like Pandaman and other random crap Oda inserts into his manga is awesome. 4) Balanced fights. You never know who's gonna win. Logia fruits can be countered by haki, etc. 5) Interesting characters. Luffy is't your typical retarded and hungry shounen mc. He shows remarkable intelligence and leadership skills. All the characters have their own personal quirks and interesting backstories. Each individual character has his/own personal goals, not like in Fairy Tail where everyone just seems to want to be best namakas 4ever. sometimes I get 10 mins into an ep and have to check if its a filler I'm watching. I've only seen 93 episodes but this has happened a lot I agree that Cupquake in that One Piece, though not a Masterpiece I think One Piece comes closer to that level then any other Battle Shonen I've seen It may feel like the whole show is a filler because the whole "Its not the destination its the journey" essence of One Piece. Its true that many episodes don't move the plot forward, but thats part of the point. In the tradition of many sea fairing adventure stories like Jason and the Argonats and the Odessy charactes get side tracked, things get complicated. The straw hat crew taking out the bad guy at an Island and helping entire islands full of people is not insignificant because they are pausing their goals to make their world a better place and thats a positive message. I'd also like to add a few reasons why One Piece is almost a Masterpiece 6) The Art. The fact that it engenders a "love or hate" response signifies how dynamic it is. Whether you like it or not you've got to admit that the character designs in One Piece are possibly more diverse than any other anime out there. You've got characters that range from realist to over the top cartoony with grotesque and classic animeish in between. 7) the Pirate theme. OK, pirates make appearances in other animes but WHAT OTHER PIRATE THEMED ANIME IS THERE? And if there is another one out there, there's a reason why One piece is more popular than any other. One piece is a very creative take on the Pirate genre for any medium. Compared to the other Battle Shonen listed, Ninjas, Martail Artists, Paranormal thing fighter, assassins, magic people, theres a TON of anime with the same theme as these 8) Representation of real world issues. One Piece has metaphors for race issues (the fishmen), class issues (luffy's home Island), slavery, the meaning of justice, the impact of childhood trauma, government corruption, the pain of civil war, and many more issues come to light and create sources of conflict apart from the typical "stop so and so from destroying the world" or "stop so and so from taking over the world." A lot of these points exhibit the Extreme uniqueness of One Piece. Yes there many flaws to one piece, yes it has the feeling of being very watered down from its potential for the sake of profit and those things weaken the artistic integrity of One Piece which means I can't at this time call it a masterpiece. However I think a definitive answer can only be given when the show/manga is over. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: No it's not, but how could you know when you haven't even seen any of the said seriesIntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc. Almost literally all of them don't have fighting and screaming in every single episode.SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". I mean that it is rare to see an episode that doesn't have those things in all of those shows |
jayss said: Link_of_Hyrule said: Trigun, Hunter x Hunter, Hajime no Ippo, Gintama, Naruto and so on.Link_of_Hyrule said: SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. FMA was great, but while it could be considered a "battle shounen", fighting and screaming are far from it's main focus. FMA is so different from the other anime in it's genre that I hesitate to group them together. Also, masterpiece is a strong word; FMA was great, but I don't know if I would say it's a masterpiece. SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. Hajime no Ippo and Trigun are NOT battle shounen, and I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". It's rare to see an episode in all of those with fighting/screaming not present (can't speak for Hunter X Hunter, but I doubt it's any different). |
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RedRoseFring said: judals said: RedRoseFring said: calling it filler at this point have clearly not been paying attention. It easily has one of the most intricately connected plots in shounen. The only ones that seem like a continuous filler at this point are Hunter x Hunter & Fairy Tail. People can easily replace any of these names with the other. It's just a bold claim not backed up. Could you clarify on the "intricate" part? Because believe me, many episodes in one piece feel very fillerish. You really need clarification on that? Many arcs are tied to each other by a long list of points, and each one by overarching themes. I'll just pick one like Thriller Bark because of the obvious Laboon connection, but it also included ties to: Shichibukai as a whole Science division of the marines Wano Kingdom Zoro and Mihawk Oars Lola Kaido While in HxH and FT, things just seem to happen on the fly. After the Hunter exams, everyone goes their separate ways only to come back later to face the Spiders, then depart once more into a game, then face magical creatures that arose for another occassion. Obviously that's an oversimplification, but the events to follow in a way that suggests whatever happens, happens. How are any of these "intricate"? Laboon connection? So what? Re-introducing a character, or introducing one that happens to know another is... intricate? How does that set it apart from fairy tail, naruto or bleach? Because they all have the same so-called intricate parts. This is the embodiment of 'simplified'. 700 chapters/600 episodes of just characters coming back and forth. This is called a soap opera, not intricacy. So ultimately, it's just the characters coming back and forth while the main characters continue on their linear journey. I won't defend FT, because I feel handles the story the same way. If anything is intricate, it's the story of Hunter x Hunter. How events are connected, how Yorknew and GI played out. Plot points are woven together. Not just some directive to be accomplished. Lots of things change from the premise to the end. Nen itself is more intricate than anything I've seen in one piece. I'm not saying OP is bad for aiming to be simple, but calling it intricate is quite the overstatement. |
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| i chose HxH based on potential. B/C it has the potential to become an absolute MONSTER. They are killing it so far. Even the current arc, about which I originally had reservations, has become riveting. In short: so far, so fucking good i'm a naruto girl from the day the first disc came out, but in no way can i call it a masterpiece. it has some points where it has shone brilliantly, but its wildly inconsistent. quick mention: i just started Hajime. just... wow |
Link_of_Hyrule said: jayss said: Link_of_Hyrule said: Trigun, Hunter x Hunter, Hajime no Ippo, Gintama, Naruto and so on.Link_of_Hyrule said: SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. FMA was great, but while it could be considered a "battle shounen", fighting and screaming are far from it's main focus. FMA is so different from the other anime in it's genre that I hesitate to group them together. Also, masterpiece is a strong word; FMA was great, but I don't know if I would say it's a masterpiece. SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. Hajime no Ippo and Trigun are NOT battle shounen, and I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". It's rare to see an episode in all of those with fighting/screaming not present (can't speak for Hunter X Hunter, but I doubt it's any different). Last episode of Hunter x Hunter was just screaming, but not for fighting... it was... entirely different. Generally speaking, Hunter x Hunter is usually put on one side with FMA, as 'one of those non-cliche' shonen. |
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IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: No, it's not that rare. How many have you watched? One? You're list only says you've watched FMAB, none of the other popular or even unpopular ones.IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc. Almost literally all of them don't have fighting and screaming in every single episode.SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". I mean that it is rare to see an episode that doesn't have those things in all of those shows You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: jayss said: Link_of_Hyrule said: Trigun, Hunter x Hunter, Hajime no Ippo, Gintama, Naruto and so on.Link_of_Hyrule said: SolBlade said: @Cupquake: If you're ever planning on getting into HxH, I would recommend watching the 2011 version. DO NOT read the manga ... it's been on hiatus for 2 years now and it's not the first time it's been on an extended hiatus either. Link_of_Hyrule said: There should be an option for "none". Battle shounens are too formulaic and cliche to be considered masterpieces. That doesn't mean that they aren't good, but all of them are basically the same things. Lots of screaming and fighting. You seem to have liked FMA quite a bit so maybe you should go with that. I believe FMA is considered a Battle Shounen as well... though I could be mistaken. FMA was great, but while it could be considered a "battle shounen", fighting and screaming are far from it's main focus. FMA is so different from the other anime in it's genre that I hesitate to group them together. Also, masterpiece is a strong word; FMA was great, but I don't know if I would say it's a masterpiece. SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. Hajime no Ippo and Trigun are NOT battle shounen, and I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". It's rare to see an episode in all of those with fighting/screaming not present (can't speak for Hunter X Hunter, but I doubt it's any different). I'll repeat what everyone else has been saying: how can you know if you haven't watched any of them? Most of them have 3 or more episodes in a row with no fights whatsoever, or the ones that are there are short-lived. Even DBZ which is notorious for that had entire episodes dedicated to the cast goofing around. Saying that just makes you sound more and more ignorant :/ |
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jayss said: skyzblue said: Accurate definition of shounen or ignorance at bestNo chance.. An anime about just beating the crap out of each other can be a masterpiece to only sadists and masochists. Now now, everyone can't be a genius like you, can they? |
Kagami_Hiiragi said: Idc if you think its weird, I have a life and friends and an income of money. |
jayss said: Link_of_Hyrule said: No it's not, but how could you know when you haven't even seen any of the said seriesIntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: One Piece, Naruto, Bleach, etc. Almost literally all of them don't have fighting and screaming in every single episode.SolBlade said: Batle Shounen =/= fighting and screaming. It just happens that most have that element but it doesn't apply to all of them. Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. I'm obviously exaggerating when I say "every single episode". I mean that it is rare to see an episode that doesn't have those things in all of those shows I have seen several episodes of all of these shows, but I don't list them because I have no clue what episodes they were from what season and I haven't seen enough to say that I "watch" the show. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: If you've only seen "pieces" of the show then how can you say that all battle shounen are filled with the same tropes and cliches? Multiple people in this thread who have actually seen the shows you say are "based on the exact same formula" disagree with you, and you don't even watch the shows.You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. |
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Cupquake said: sebrina8 said: if you think one piece is a masterpiece, then you are a fanboy because you are ignoring it's gigantic flaws and proceeding to claim it's a masterpiece. this is no head scratching matter. I never said a masterpiece has to have no flaws. A masterpiece for me just has to be somethign that I consider to be outstanding and unique. Fine, I'll write about why I believe that One Piece is most deserving of the title, compared to other series listed and you can dispute my claims. That fair? 1) Straight forward and organized plot that gives a clear direction of where the story is heading. The island to island travel to reach the final island gives us a clear goal and idea of where the series will end. Better than stuff like Fairy Tail and Bleach which seems to be just wandering around randomly. The fruit powers are organized very neatly in a way that is easy to understand. 2) Unique and creative Islands keeps the reader constantly interested. Each new arc literally brings a whole new world. The beginning of an arc explains a bit about each island and it's inhabitants. 3) Pandaman. Stuff like Pandaman and other random crap Oda inserts into his manga is awesome. 4) Balanced fights. You never know who's gonna win. Logia fruits can be countered by haki, etc. 5) Interesting characters. Luffy is't your typical retarded and hungry shounen mc. He shows remarkable intelligence and leadership skills. All the characters have their own personal quirks and interesting backstories. Each individual character has his/own personal goals, not like in Fairy Tail where everyone just seems to want to be best namakas 4ever. Pretty sure Fairy Tail has that "number man" or whatever it is that serves the purpose of pandaman. |
Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: If you've only seen "pieces" of the show then how can you say that all battle shounen are filled with the same tropes and cliches? Multiple people in this thread who have actually seen the shows you say are "based on the exact same formula" disagree with you, and you don't even watch the shows.You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. I'm pretty sure if he said that while having watched it you'd say "then why did you watch it" In either case, he's right, at least about the mainstream shonen. |
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| If we talk about anime, then I'd say HxH 2011. If we talk abour manga, then I'd say One Piece. But I wouldn't call any of them masterpiece since they aren't finished. |
k11chi said: Cupquake said: sebrina8 said: if you think one piece is a masterpiece, then you are a fanboy because you are ignoring it's gigantic flaws and proceeding to claim it's a masterpiece. this is no head scratching matter. I never said a masterpiece has to have no flaws. A masterpiece for me just has to be somethign that I consider to be outstanding and unique. Fine, I'll write about why I believe that One Piece is most deserving of the title, compared to other series listed and you can dispute my claims. That fair? 1) Straight forward and organized plot that gives a clear direction of where the story is heading. The island to island travel to reach the final island gives us a clear goal and idea of where the series will end. Better than stuff like Fairy Tail and Bleach which seems to be just wandering around randomly. The fruit powers are organized very neatly in a way that is easy to understand. 2) Unique and creative Islands keeps the reader constantly interested. Each new arc literally brings a whole new world. The beginning of an arc explains a bit about each island and it's inhabitants. 3) Pandaman. Stuff like Pandaman and other random crap Oda inserts into his manga is awesome. 4) Balanced fights. You never know who's gonna win. Logia fruits can be countered by haki, etc. 5) Interesting characters. Luffy is't your typical retarded and hungry shounen mc. He shows remarkable intelligence and leadership skills. All the characters have their own personal quirks and interesting backstories. Each individual character has his/own personal goals, not like in Fairy Tail where everyone just seems to want to be best namakas 4ever. Pretty sure Fairy Tail has that "number man" or whatever it is that serves the purpose of pandaman. Meh. One Piece also has a lot of other cool easter eggs. Like the name brand shirts, the knock-off name brand shirts, funny pieces of text and random characters that where seen in other islands appear in new islands. This is more obvious in the manga, because Oda talks about them in the S.B.S. question corner. |
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Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: If you've only seen "pieces" of the show then how can you say that all battle shounen are filled with the same tropes and cliches? Multiple people in this thread who have actually seen the shows you say are "based on the exact same formula" disagree with you, and you don't even watch the shows.You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
judals said: RedRoseFring said: judals said: RedRoseFring said: calling it filler at this point have clearly not been paying attention. It easily has one of the most intricately connected plots in shounen. The only ones that seem like a continuous filler at this point are Hunter x Hunter & Fairy Tail. People can easily replace any of these names with the other. It's just a bold claim not backed up. Could you clarify on the "intricate" part? Because believe me, many episodes in one piece feel very fillerish. You really need clarification on that? Many arcs are tied to each other by a long list of points, and each one by overarching themes. I'll just pick one like Thriller Bark because of the obvious Laboon connection, but it also included ties to: Shichibukai as a whole Science division of the marines Wano Kingdom Zoro and Mihawk Oars Lola Kaido While in HxH and FT, things just seem to happen on the fly. After the Hunter exams, everyone goes their separate ways only to come back later to face the Spiders, then depart once more into a game, then face magical creatures that arose for another occassion. Obviously that's an oversimplification, but the events to follow in a way that suggests whatever happens, happens. How are any of these "intricate"? Laboon connection? So what? Re-introducing a character, or introducing one that happens to know another is... intricate? How does that set it apart from fairy tail, naruto or bleach? Because they all have the same so-called intricate parts. This is the embodiment of 'simplified'. 700 chapters/600 episodes of just characters coming back and forth. This is called a soap opera, not intricacy. So ultimately, it's just the characters coming back and forth while the main characters continue on their linear journey. I won't defend FT, because I feel handles the story the same way. If anything is intricate, it's the story of Hunter x Hunter. How events are connected, how Yorknew and GI played out. Plot points are woven together. Not just some directive to be accomplished. Lots of things change from the premise to the end. Nen itself is more intricate than anything I've seen in one piece. I'm not saying OP is bad for aiming to be simple, but calling it intricate is quite the overstatement. "Intricate" is a subjective claim, it can't be used alone as a fact nor there is a way to demonstrate it. I think RedRoseFring is actually trying there to counter your argument that One Piece feels as a whole fillerish by proving that every arc has multiple connections. And I agree, if the definition of "fillerish" stands as what I believe it is: not connected to the main story. Then again, this is just on wording I guess. |
Link_of_Hyrule said: I disagree and what would you know? You must have only watched DBZ.You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. Every genre has cliches and tropes(which battle shounen really isn't a genre, there's just no easier way to say it). So you've only seen pieces and not enough to say you've "watched" the show yet you think you've watched enough to be able to generalize all of them. Naruhodo, you're full of shit. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
judals said: RedRoseFring said: judals said: RedRoseFring said: calling it filler at this point have clearly not been paying attention. It easily has one of the most intricately connected plots in shounen. The only ones that seem like a continuous filler at this point are Hunter x Hunter & Fairy Tail. People can easily replace any of these names with the other. It's just a bold claim not backed up. Could you clarify on the "intricate" part? Because believe me, many episodes in one piece feel very fillerish. You really need clarification on that? Many arcs are tied to each other by a long list of points, and each one by overarching themes. I'll just pick one like Thriller Bark because of the obvious Laboon connection, but it also included ties to: Shichibukai as a whole Science division of the marines Wano Kingdom Zoro and Mihawk Oars Lola Kaido While in HxH and FT, things just seem to happen on the fly. After the Hunter exams, everyone goes their separate ways only to come back later to face the Spiders, then depart once more into a game, then face magical creatures that arose for another occassion. Obviously that's an oversimplification, but the events to follow in a way that suggests whatever happens, happens. How are any of these "intricate"? Laboon connection? So what? Re-introducing a character, or introducing one that happens to know another is... intricate? How does that set it apart from fairy tail, naruto or bleach? Because they all have the same so-called intricate parts. This is the embodiment of 'simplified'. 700 chapters/600 episodes of just characters coming back and forth. This is called a soap opera, not intricacy. So ultimately, it's just the characters coming back and forth while the main characters continue on their linear journey. I won't defend FT, because I feel handles the story the same way. If anything is intricate, it's the story of Hunter x Hunter. How events are connected, how Yorknew and GI played out. Plot points are woven together. Not just some directive to be accomplished. Lots of things change from the premise to the end. Nen itself is more intricate than anything I've seen in one piece. I'm not saying OP is bad for aiming to be simple, but calling it intricate is quite the overstatement. How are they intricate? Simple: by moving the plot forward in unexpected ways with unexpected connections. I'm sure when Laboon was introduced you had no idea that the crew who seemingly abandoned him would be helping the Strawhats defeat one of the Shichibukai in the near future and connect them with a group that would help them face off against an emperor. Your "re-introducing characters" stint is one that I have seen before and easily countered. More than half of cases in a plot that is labeled intricate deals with character connections because surprise, surprise: Characters help move the plot forward far more than events. Everything from Shounen like Naruto to Seinen like Monster to live action like Breaking Bad, or elitist wet dreams like Evangelion deal with character connections that are revealed in the future or unexpected. In short, character introductions, re-introductions and events that they shape are and will always be a major part of intricacy. And of course, simply re-introducing a character does nothing if it has no relevance. Bringing back Vivi on Punk Hazard or Thriller Bark where she has no business being would be plain silly. Bringing back a character when they are needed is a staple of good writing from every piece of literature from the Iliad and Odyssey to the Lord of the Rings. Yorknew is one of my favourite arcs in all of anime, and a large part of that was due to the number of characters in play and their interactions, very little that could be chalked up to "intricacy" was devoid of character interaction, and was still pretty small scale in comparison to a full-blown arc like Water 7/Ennies Lobby. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Link_of_Hyrule said: You need to watch the show. You can't make a judgement on an entire genre based on a couple episodes. You can generalize every genre out there.How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. Does fighting and screaming happen in battle shounen? Yeah. But saying "battle shounen can't be considered master pieces" is stupid. |
an egomaniac and a fool |
| Jal90, I see... Well, arcs like Fishman Island, for example, DID have nothing to do with the main story, if a chapter happens where some character returns, or where a new character appears, that is bound to appear later, that doesn't really redeem the whole arc, or even the episode in question, as good or even relevant. Most writers work to make a good arc and Oda just makes these subpar chapters and then inserts some of these teasers like "well, I did include that part, so I guess you can say it's all pretty important and intricate" Every shonen has that, it's just that the meat of the arc is not so bad that it would stand out as much. Other arcs feel filler-ish for other reasons. To me, Water 7 felt like filler. Not the mansion/set-up part, but the second half of it. That was fights like the ones described in Link's post. |
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IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: I disagree and what would you know? You must have only watched DBZ.You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. Every genre has cliches and tropes(which battle shounen really isn't a genre, there's just no easier way to say it). So you've only seen pieces and not enough to say you've "watched" the show yet you think you've watched enough to be able to generalize all of them. Naruhodo, you're full of shit. I've seen more then just Dragon Ball; I've seen over 20 episodes of Naruto, Bleach, One Piece and more. That is more then enough to be able to notice patterns and tropes in an anime. Do not misunderstand; I am not saying that these shows are bad, because they are not by any means. Most of them are quite good, in fact, but when the word "masterpiece" enters the conversation, I don't think they are worthy of the title. |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
| A show that I would describe as a masterpiece would have to do something that no other show has done (or at least be fairly unique) and/or do what it does extremely well and polished enough to set it above the rest. In my opinion, no battle shounen has or will do this due to their own nature. So, where is the "None" option for the poll? |
ShrabsterFeb 18, 2014 4:00 PM
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| strike the blood |
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| Naruto, fyeah! |
| I think you'd look lovely with your wrists slit. |
Link_of_Hyrule said: So 20 episodes of a couple shows and you know enough to generalize the whole group of them. You're still full of shit.IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: I disagree and what would you know? You must have only watched DBZ.You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. Every genre has cliches and tropes(which battle shounen really isn't a genre, there's just no easier way to say it). So you've only seen pieces and not enough to say you've "watched" the show yet you think you've watched enough to be able to generalize all of them. Naruhodo, you're full of shit. I've seen more then just Dragon Ball; I've seen over 20 episodes of Naruto, Bleach, One Piece and more. That is more then enough to be able to notice patterns and tropes in an anime. Do not misunderstand; I am not saying that these shows are bad, because they are not by any means. Most of them are quite good, in fact, but when the word "masterpiece" enters the conversation, I don't think they are worthy of the title. Yet you're only argument against that is that they have screaming and fighting which most people have said you're wrong. And I don't even know how fighting and screaming = bad. Every genre has tropes and cliches. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: You need to watch the show. You can't make a judgement on an entire genre based on a couple episodes. You can generalize every genre out there.How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. Does fighting and screaming happen in battle shounen? Yeah. But saying "battle shounen can't be considered master pieces" is stupid. You can consider them masterpieces all you want want; all I am saying is that in my opinion, it doesn't feel right to call formulaic and extremely similar shows "masterpieces". Are they all good shows? Yes. Masterpieces? Not in my opinion. Watching well over twenty episodes of several battle shounen more then qualifies me to observe tropes, patterns, and cliches in the genre. |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
| Should I just assume sebrina8 isn't going to respond and un-watch this thread? |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: You need to watch the show. You can't make a judgement on an entire genre based on a couple episodes. You can generalize every genre out there.How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. Does fighting and screaming happen in battle shounen? Yeah. But saying "battle shounen can't be considered master pieces" is stupid. You can consider them masterpieces all you want want; all I am saying is that in my opinion, it doesn't feel right to call formulaic and extremely similar shows "masterpieces". Are they all good shows? Yes. Masterpieces? Not in my opinion. Watching well over twenty episodes of several battle shounen more then qualifies me to observe tropes, patterns, and cliches in the genre. Well then....what do YOU consider a masterpiece? |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
Link_of_Hyrule said: Let's take a look at one of my favorite shows, I consider it a masterpiece. It just so happens that this show is considered ecchi, and we all know the tropes and cliches that come along with ecchi. Does that mean because it's ecchi, it is "formulaic and similar" to every other ecchi show out there? Not even close. Just because a show falls under battle shounen doesn't = SO MANY STEREOTYPES AND SCREAMING IT'S ALL FORMULAIC AND STEREOTYPICAL. Therefore, you can't generalize a genre and consider it not masterpiece worthy. Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: You need to watch the show. You can't make a judgement on an entire genre based on a couple episodes. You can generalize every genre out there.How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. Does fighting and screaming happen in battle shounen? Yeah. But saying "battle shounen can't be considered master pieces" is stupid. You can consider them masterpieces all you want want; all I am saying is that in my opinion, it doesn't feel right to call formulaic and extremely similar shows "masterpieces". Are they all good shows? Yes. Masterpieces? Not in my opinion. Watching well over twenty episodes of several battle shounen more then qualifies me to observe tropes, patterns, and cliches in the genre. |
an egomaniac and a fool |
IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: So 20 episodes of a couple shows and you know enough to generalize the whole group of them. You're still full of shit.IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: I disagree and what would you know? You must have only watched DBZ.You're missing the point; battle shounens are built entirely on the exact same formula and the exact same cliches. One of those cliches is a crazy amount of screaming and fighting, but there are many more. For that reason, I wouldn't call any of them a masterpiece. We are getting hung up on specifics here. I've seen pieces of pretty much all the shows in the poll, but I don't list them because I have no idea what episodes they were and I haven't seen enough episodes to say that I "watch" the show. Every genre has cliches and tropes(which battle shounen really isn't a genre, there's just no easier way to say it). So you've only seen pieces and not enough to say you've "watched" the show yet you think you've watched enough to be able to generalize all of them. Naruhodo, you're full of shit. I've seen more then just Dragon Ball; I've seen over 20 episodes of Naruto, Bleach, One Piece and more. That is more then enough to be able to notice patterns and tropes in an anime. Do not misunderstand; I am not saying that these shows are bad, because they are not by any means. Most of them are quite good, in fact, but when the word "masterpiece" enters the conversation, I don't think they are worthy of the title. Yet you're only argument against that is that they have screaming and fighting which most people have said you're wrong. And I don't even know how fighting and screaming = bad. Every genre has tropes and cliches. Haha, y'know, there's really no need to get so defensive when all I am doing is stating my opinion. When I see 5-10 shows of the same genre that are all built around the exact same core of writing tropes/techniques, characters archetypes, and plot structure, I have seen more then enough to get gauge of what the norm is for the genre. That is a simple fact. You may disagree with the conclusion I draw, but you can not act as if I don't have right to an opinion because you have seen more then me. It is as Shrabster said: Shrabster said: A show that I would describe as a masterpiece would have to do something that no other show has done (or at least be fairly unique) and/or do what it does extremely well and polished enough to set it above the rest. In my opinion, no battle shounen has or will do this due to their own nature. So, where is my "None" option in the poll? I would completely agree with his position. |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
| There should be a multiple choice option on the poll :D |
judals said: Jal90, I see... Well, arcs like Fishman Island, for example, DID have nothing to do with the main story, if a chapter happens where some character returns, or where a new character appears, that is bound to appear later, that doesn't really redeem the whole arc, or even the episode in question, as good or even relevant. Most writers work to make a good arc and Oda just makes these subpar chapters and then inserts some of these teasers like "well, I did include that part, so I guess you can say it's all pretty important and intricate" Every shonen has that, it's just that the meat of the arc is not so bad that it would stand out as much. Other arcs feel filler-ish for other reasons. To me, Water 7 felt like filler. Not the mansion/set-up part, but the second half of it. That was fights like the ones described in Link's post. It sounds again like you simply weren't paying attention, then complained about everything you missed. Fishman Island had: Arlong and Jinbei's past. The Tennryubito Luffy's destruction of the Island Poseidon & Roger Big Mam New techniques & First impressions. To say it had nothing implies that you watched the intro to one episode, turned off your screen then went to a forum to sulk about how it had nothing. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
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