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Alexstratz said: So is Cal alive or not? And is she gonna be made into one of those Scythe Master puppets? Yeaup just wait for the next episode. WE'll wait what Cal is going to do! |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
| When I was feeling happy that Reiji is out of that weird relationship with Cal (read the too sweet and too childish loli) , they show her alive and well waiting to be reunited with reiji in the next few episodes?!?! I hope not! Although I'm not a huge fan of Elen but the relationship between Reiji and her is not a creepy as it is with Cal in my opinion. |
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Alexstratz said: So is Cal alive or not? And is she gonna be made into one of those Scythe Master puppets? yes. The reason for the last scene was to show how nothing in the room survived. Then they show the watch, gun, and table perfectly fine. This shows what we all knew last episode, Cal left the room in a rush then came back after the explosion went off and the mafia members left to wait for Reiji. I'm still not liking the direction their going with Cal. It feels to much like Scythe is gonna show up and turn her into a killing machine :(. |
^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
| I didn't like this episode as much as the last =/ There have been worse episodes, but I didn't exactly like this one. I agree that Claudia's final scenes were rather uncharacteristic. All this time, I felt that she was a "fighter" (not in the physical sense, but she had a lot of determination and did anything to achieve what she wanted) and from what I saw, she had pretty much given up with hardly a fight. It's hard to believe she worked all that time and with so much effort and progress just simply to avenge her brother's death (unless I completely missed or forgot something?). Even still, I did like seeing Claudia enjoying her moment of "freedom", even if it was brief and rather uncharacteristic. Also, the Elen/Reiji reunion was rather underwhelming. I mean, we all knew it was coming so it wasn't exactly a shocking scenario. However, the whole knife fight and whatnot really could have been a lot more intense and dramatic simply for enjoyment's purposes. Their conversation wasn't awful, but some of the lines were a bit cheesy and I felt it was dragged out a bit too long (found myself getting bored after a few minutes of it). |
| I can see it now... another timeskip and Reiji and Elen are living peacefully in Mexico. Then word goes out that there's a new Phantom on the block who oh so coincidentally happens to be Cal. It just seems like such a likely scenario. |
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| Everyone complaining about how Clau's death was bad need to re-watch and listen . Liz is ex-mafia breaking a promise in gang world is taboo. you do it you die simple . Clau lied to her making liz a pupper which clau promised not to do therefor breaking the promise and mafia law kicks in .gawsh listen second is the whole beach scene is like just to pretty much read into the themes and motifes . bu tthe renuion well people woulc of complained no matter what happaned no one is pleased lol xD |
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| Firstly, I'd like to say that if Lizzy didn't want to be treated like a slave, then she shouldn't have acted like a slave, ie, blindly following all of Claudia's orders. That was a question that I made much earlier, that Lizzy basically answered a few episodes ago when she practically told Reiji not to think about things too hard and that Claudia would deal like it. It's a case of wanting your cake and eating it too, which is plain hypocritical. If you saw the beach scene as beautiful, fine, a hot chick running manically on the beach in a suit is beautiful, but given what we know of her, it's not all that understandable for her character. Lastly, please enlighten us on these themes and motifs present in Phantom. So far, the only motif throughout the show I can discern is the puppet one. The only theme that I see is revenge, but even then, that has been rather shallow, serving only as a motivational factor, and nothing that has been really fleshed out. |
| This story just gets better and better. Right now, I'm sad about Claudia's death, and I think it's cute that Reiji and Elen are reunited and running off to Mexico. And Cal is alive!! Unfortunately, I have to agree about about Cal being the next Phantom. She has a natural talent already, she's exactly what Scythe would look for in a "future Phantom." Plus, she's still very young and impressionable, and |
AikaHimeAug 5, 2009 7:54 PM
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| So, this was a pretty sad episode. Ein and Reiji's reunion. Claudia's death. I didn't even like Claudia AT ALL. But her death was kind of nice, in a good way. She looked so different. Ein and Reiji go to Mexico :D I still don't care about Cal. I'm really hoping she stays "dead". Though, I doubt it. :| |
| Southbound we go... looks like Lizzie did have the guts to shoot her unlike in the visual novel... P.S.: Darn, no helicopter chase... :) |
| Sore wa himitsu desu. |
Sayuri-Hime said: This story just gets better and better. Right now, I'm sad about Claudia's death, and I think it's cute that Reiji and Elen are reunited and running off to Mexico. And Cal is alive!! Unfortunately, I have to agree about about Cal being the next Phantom. She has a natural talent already, she's exactly what Scythe would look for in a "future Phantom." Plus, she's still very young and impressionable, and Scythe master is DIRTY!!! |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
| This went rather smoothly...except for Claudia. |
noteDhero said: Firstly, I'd like to say that if Lizzy didn't want to be treated like a slave, then she shouldn't have acted like a slave, ie, blindly following all of Claudia's orders. That was a question that I made much earlier, that Lizzy basically answered a few episodes ago when she practically told Reiji not to think about things too hard and that Claudia would deal like it. It's a case of wanting your cake and eating it too, which is plain hypocritical. No. It's exactly her "being a soldier" that she was now forced to kill Claudia. This time, McGuire, the boss of Lizzie's boss, put out a kill order, which is binding for Lizzie too. The reason why she took her time in executing the order was that at first, she was hoping that it was no betrayal of Claudia, and that it could be explained somehow - it couldn't. And finally, she did it as she had to do it. Claudia knew it too and made it easy for her (on the beach, she was clearly waiting for the kill). I was surprised that they deviated from the VN here, since the anime omitted a vital aspect of Claudia. If you saw the beach scene as beautiful, fine, a hot chick running manically on the beach in a suit is beautiful, but given what we know of her, it's not all that understandable for her character. Claudia's leitmotiv was "run - speed on to the place Romero couldn't reach". That's what she did till the end. She knew that Lizzie had been sent to kill her, and that she had lost her gamble, so she had given up. Lastly, please enlighten us on these themes and motifs present in Phantom. So far, the only motif throughout the show I can discern is the puppet one. The only theme that I see is revenge, but even then, that has been rather shallow, serving only as a motivational factor, and nothing that has been really fleshed out. For brevity's sake, I'll list only one: The overarching main theme of Phantom is loyalty and betrayal, particularly in this violent and deadly underworld environment. It comes in many forms: The "soldier" (Lizzie). The "brother" (Shiga). The "protector" (Reiji, to Cal). The "savior" (Reiji, to Elen). The "slave" (Elen, to SM). The "subordinate" (Reiji to Claudia). And plain "love and care" (Cal to Reiji). I don't wanna classify Elen-->Reiji right now, since this will be a main issue of the conclusion. The story shows how _all_ of these motivations to protect and take care of someone break down, even though they were all genuine, at least up to a certain degree. The recipients of this loyalty were all "betrayed", sometimes consciously, sometimes due to circumstances beyond their control. The conclusion of Phantom will explore what develops out of the breakdowns, which can be salvaged and which can't, and why. |
Great Ep. Have to admit I was surprised Claudia actually got taken out by Lizzy. I thought she would end up succeeding in her plan, with Lizzy by her side. The anime failed to show one important thing: Lizzie is very loyal to Inferno. There is no way she would betray them. Also, in the path leading to the chapter3 endings, Claudia didn't die, she escaped (and was never heard of again). She spit the truth in Lizzie's face and left, and Lizzie didn't manage to shoot her. It was mentioned somewhere in chapter 3 that Inferno killed her eventually. Not suprising if you rememebr those car chases and helicopter hunts in Claudia's path during chapter 2. Ah, and another Mentar vs noteDhero battle. Their discussions are always interesting. |
NayraelAug 6, 2009 1:36 AM
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| Wasn't expecting Claudia to got out like that, even though it was nice to see her innocent side before her death, it would of been more fitting to see her going down with a fight. I know she did ring Reji for help but alas there was no plan B. The sadest part of the episode for me was the next episode preview. Poor Cal ;_; Valkyria00 said: Cal, might end feeling some hate for Reji but I cant see her killing Reji, they've had such a sweet time together. Their Love will prevail!Cal is gonna feel abandoned betrayed and end up killing Reiji! Some bullshit like that is gonna happen I know it! One of the three is gonna die |
| ZOMG xD great episode!!! |
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Mentar said: noteDhero said: Firstly, I'd like to say that if Lizzy didn't want to be treated like a slave, then she shouldn't have acted like a slave, ie, blindly following all of Claudia's orders. That was a question that I made much earlier, that Lizzy basically answered a few episodes ago when she practically told Reiji not to think about things too hard and that Claudia would deal like it. It's a case of wanting your cake and eating it too, which is plain hypocritical. No. It's exactly her "being a soldier" that she was now forced to kill Claudia. This time, McGuire, the boss of Lizzie's boss, put out a kill order, which is binding for Lizzie too. The reason why she took her time in executing the order was that at first, she was hoping that it was no betrayal of Claudia, and that it could be explained somehow - it couldn't. And finally, she did it as she had to do it. Claudia knew it too and made it easy for her (on the beach, she was clearly waiting for the kill). I was surprised that they deviated from the VN here, since the anime omitted a vital aspect of Claudia. Somehow, I think that would have been a much more satisfying ending for Claudia, IMO, than what we were given in the anime. Also, I always had the impression that Lizzie was, first and foremost, loyal to Claudia and that, since she joined Inferno because of Claudia, that she was more loyal to her than to Inferno. |
| Exactly, Aeterna. The thought that Lizzy is more attached to Inferno than Claudia just doesn't make sense to me. She wanted revenge just as much as Claudia, but in a seemingly different way because she was opposed to Claudia's joining Inferno. It makes no sense to me that she would kill Claudia and think it's the right thing to do. What it comes down to for me is that Lizzy just wanted to live, and if that meant killing Claudia, so be it. As for loyalty being a theme, I disagree. I think it gets talked about because revenge and betrayal (which I think are very connected, and in the context of the show, the same thing) are themes. But the concept of loyalty just isn't really delved into. It's just shown as a neutral state before that loyalty being broken. And in every case you described, except Cal to Reiji and Reiji to Elen, it is broken. I would like to say something regarding despair is up there in themes, but I can't think of any definite way to put it right now. Oh yeah, maybe it's survival instead of despair... I think that we aren't really shown any character struggling to be loyal is why loyalty isn't really a theme. With Lizzy, she shoots Claudia with little hesitation for an organization that killed her friend, boss, or whatever Romero was to her. Shiga had been scheming with SM the whole time, so as far as we know, he was never loyal, Reiji never even considered telling Cal about Ein, Elen's loyalty to SM is totally occluded and is in existence purely for plot,, same with Reiji to Claudia, though Reiji had better reasons to stay with her, and then Elen's betrayal of Reiji is the reason both of them got shot and almost died at the end of this arc. We don't really see either this loyalty breakdown as a process that happens over time (except maybe with Ein, but like I said, it's pulled along with the plot) or the characters struggle with it the way we do revenge. Betrayal is more like one of those necessities for the revenge that they go for. The theme that the characters actually struggle with (execept for Ein who is just pulled along by the plot), is survival. Probably even more so than revenge, since every character seems to deal with it in clear fashions. Also, tangent thought, we know nothing about Ray McGwire. Clearly he does a terrible job of gaining the loyalty of his subordinates, so I wonder why no one has killed him, and why there aren't as many people vying for power. The mafia seem to be loyal to Inferno because of its dominance, and not Ray because of his might. |
noteDheroAug 6, 2009 8:55 AM
| Starts off as somewhat depressing but.. I like the end of the episode, seems to be different than that of the original visual novel. Next episode Sawashiro Miyuki |
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noteDhero said: Exactly, Aeterna. The thought that Lizzy is more attached to Inferno than Claudia just doesn't make sense to me. She wanted revenge just as much as Claudia, but in a seemingly different way because she was opposed to Claudia's joining Inferno. It makes no sense to me that she would kill Claudia and think it's the right thing to do. What it comes down to for me is that Lizzy just wanted to live, and if that meant killing Claudia, so be it. Are you even awake? How can you possibly compare a disagreement over a flashback scene years ago on whether or not to join Inferno with the issue on hand, namely the betrayal of Claudia. In case you failed to connect the dots: Claudia doublecrossed Lizzie and all the others killed in the Raid half a year ago. She sicced Phantom on her, and it's only due to Lizzie's luck that she's even still alive. Claudia screwed everyone over, KILLED people (hers and Lizzie's) and also (that's what the flashback was referring to) broke the rules which she herself promised to uphold. This is why the kill order was issued and this is why Lizzie killed her. I find it hard to believe that you seriously think that after learning that your boss used dangerous killers to attack you, you're supposed to be "loyal" to him. So I guess you didn't realize that yet. As for loyalty being a theme, I disagree. I think it gets talked about because revenge and betrayal (which I think are very connected, and in the context of the show, the same thing) are themes. But the concept of loyalty just isn't really delved into. Strange, I could have sworn we just talked about JUST THAT. Loyalty/attachment. Guess you forgot already. It's just shown as a neutral state before that loyalty being broken. And in every case you described, except Cal to Reiji and Reiji to Elen, it is broken. I would like to say something regarding despair is up there in themes, but I can't think of any definite way to put it right now. Oh yeah, maybe it's survival instead of despair... This paragraph made no sense to me. Loyalty (which in the sentence before you claimed not to be an issue) is shown as a neutral state before it's broken, except in those cases where it isn't? Try to rephrase. I think that we aren't really shown any character struggling to be loyal is why loyalty isn't really a theme. Nonsense. Lizzie not struggling to be loyal to Claudia? Ein not struggling to be loyal to SM? What anime are you watching? With Lizzy, she shoots Claudia with little hesitation for an organization that killed her friend, boss, or whatever Romero was to her. Again, I think you didn't understand the story. That was a FLASHBACK. BEFORE they joined Inferno. Lizzie killed her because Claudia betrayed everyone, including her. Shiga had been scheming with SM the whole time, so as far as we know, he was never loyal [...] You didn't understand the story here either. Shiga didn't "scheme" with anybody, he was deceived by SM, who managed to make Shiga (and Daisuke) believe that Reiji/Claudia were behind the assassinations. In consequence, Daisuke attacked Claudia's underlings and started a war with Inferno. In the end, Shiga (who was shown to dearly treasure Daisuke multiple times) killed Daisuke to avert danger from the Godoh group, since his loyalty to the whole Godoh group was bigger than to Daisuke personally. Reiji never even considered telling Cal about Ein Why the fish should he have told her? To him, she was dead. Elen's loyalty to SM is totally occluded and is in existence purely for plot Her dependency on SM has been a key driver of the whole story. Besides, you're contradicting yourself again: If loyalty was used for plot, it means it DOES exist and is important. But who's counting... same with Reiji to Claudia, though Reiji had better reasons to stay with her Stay with the woman who used you time and time again, and whose scheming caused your partner (Ein) to be shot in a fault attack against your own organization... wow. and then Elen's betrayal of Reiji is the reason both of them got shot and almost died at the end of this arc. What "betrayal" of Reiji? I can imagine exactly one scene in which one might argue that she "betrayed" him, and that was when Ein's loyalty to SM superseded hers to Reiji. Both asked her to kill the other, and even though Ein ultimately went with SM back then, she did NOT shoot Reiji as commanded. After this, it was due to Ein's interference that he didn't die by the hand of Daisuke. But - all misunderstandings of the source notwithstanding - what you've been doing was giving a list of examples where loyalty played a huge role. Essentially, you've been arguing for my position. So revise your argument: Are you saying that loyalty is no issue because it doesn't exist? Or, if you agree that loyalty is important, please rephrase what point you were trying to make instead. |
Mentar said: Are you even awake? How can you possibly compare a disagreement over a flashback scene years ago on whether or not to join Inferno with the issue on hand, namely the betrayal of Claudia. In case you failed to connect the dots: Claudia doublecrossed Lizzie and all the others killed in the Raid half a year ago. She sicced Phantom on her, and it's only due to Lizzie's luck that she's even still alive. Claudia screwed everyone over, KILLED people (hers and Lizzie's) and also (that's what the flashback was referring to) broke the rules which she herself promised to uphold. This is why the kill order was issued and this is why Lizzie killed her. I find it hard to believe that you seriously think that after learning that your boss used dangerous killers to attack you, you're supposed to be "loyal" to him. So I guess you didn't realize that yet. I say this based on the way she dismissed Reiji's thoughts on a third party manipulating everyone. She trusted Claudia wholeheartedly despite not thinking for herslef. This goes back to what I said a few episodes ago about Lizzy just blindly following Claudia. Also, based on the lack of a reaction Lizzy had when Godoh revealed most of everything is another reason why I just didn't think that she cared. Then we have the fact that she went with Claudia all of the way out to the beach and killed her, without demanding an explanation or anything. What was that all about, if not to give Claudia the chance to win her over? Lizzy continued to be someone that trusted Claudia over Inferno. I don't even know that she trusted Inferno based solely off of that flashback. That's why I point to it. I have no reason to believe she has any loyalty to Ray McGwire. This paragraph made no sense to me. Loyalty (which in the sentence before you claimed not to be an issue) is shown as a neutral state before it's broken, except in those cases where it isn't? Try to rephrase. What needs to be rephrased? Loyalty isn't a theme because it isn't an idea that gets delved into of its own accord. It's there because you can't discuss betrayal without loyalty, but as a subject of its own, it doesn't emerge. Nonsense. Lizzie not struggling to be loyal to Claudia? Ein not struggling to be loyal to SM? What anime are you watching? Lizzy doesn't struggle. She demands no explanation from Claudia and like an off switch chooses Inferno over Claudia. Where do we see that struggle? We don't. You didn't understand the story here either. Shiga didn't "scheme" with anybody, he was deceived by SM, who managed to make Shiga (and Daisuke) believe that Reiji/Claudia were behind the assassinations. In consequence, Daisuke attacked Claudia's underlings and started a war with Inferno. In the end, Shiga (who was shown to dearly treasure Daisuke multiple times) killed Daisuke to avert danger from the Godoh group, since his loyalty to the whole Godoh group was bigger than to Daisuke personally. I agree that he was deceived, but it was absolutely a scheme to save his hide. A good bit of the Godoh group died when Ein shot up Daisuke and everyone, so to say his loyalty there wasn't also betrayed is faulty. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure that trusting some hidden third party over your boss is not the greatest display of loyalty to both the boss and the organization. Why the fish should he have told her? To him, she was dead. No she wasn't. Reiji knew from the second that Godoh member in the casino died that Ein was alive. And if he didn't totally believe it (he clearly suspected her, so to say that he thought she was dead at this point is wrong), he knew after that sniper shot on the rooftops. He knew it was Ein, knew she was the one behind Judy's death, and decided that his attachment to her superseded his to Cal, and without a second thought, lied to her. Her dependency on SM has been a key driver of the whole story. Besides, you're contradicting yourself again: If loyalty was used for plot, it means it DOES exist and is important. But who's counting... It means it exists, but that doesn't make it a theme. I never said that loyalty doesn't exist. I said thematically it isn't strong because it isn't pervasive. Stay with the woman who used you time and time again, and whose scheming caused your partner (Ein) to be shot in a fault attack against your own organization... wow. The better reason is that defying her and therefore Inferno is more dangerous than Ein defying SM. But I'm glad you agree that it's flimsy. What "betrayal" of Reiji? I can imagine exactly one scene in which one might argue that she "betrayed" him, and that was when Ein's loyalty to SM superseded hers to Reiji. Both asked her to kill the other, and even though Ein ultimately went with SM back then, she did NOT shoot Reiji as commanded. After this, it was due to Ein's interference that he didn't die by the hand of Daisuke. Yes. That betrayal. There is a difference between defiance and betrayal. Ein defied SM, but betrayed Reiji by returning to Scythe. Does that need further explanation? And she shot Daisuke because that was SM's orders; that it happened to coincide with saving Reiji (which I believe the whole thing was SMs manipulation anyway) is moot. But - all misunderstandings of the source notwithstanding - what you've been doing was giving a list of examples where loyalty played a huge role. Essentially, you've been arguing for my position. No. I listed examples where loyalty was not the role, but rather betrayal. And again I will refer to the first point that I made: Loyalty is there because it goes hand in hand with betrayal. Loyalty in and of itself is never delved into. Betrayal, and the machinations that go with it, however, are. So revise your argument: Are you saying that loyalty is no issue because it doesn't exist? Or, if you agree that loyalty is important, please rephrase what point you were trying to make instead. If I were you this is the point where I would ask, "You weren't reading were you?" But I'll say it again regardless: Betrayal is pervasive theme in Phantom. Because loyalty is the tails to betrayal's heads, it is present, but not nearly as prevalent or examined in the way that both betrayal and survival are. |
noteDheroAug 6, 2009 11:48 AM
| that episode was really strange, first off Claudia. What the heck was all that supposed to mean. She was so OOC, on that beach XD and her death was far far too sudden. i dont know it just felt too rushed. For her, so important character to die that easily and without any explanation, just because some old jerk decieve another jerk with one photo? lmao and why the one who killed her was Lizzie? all the time before she was acted like...i dont know... like she wanted to protect Claudia, and yet she shoot her in head? i would rather think that she would pack her into the car, and tell her to hide and dont show up ever again. and why did that Ray guy believed Scythe asshole just because? didnt he has a single thought that might be lying and manipulating just like Claudia ? o_O i dont know, i wouldnt expect something like that o-P as for Ein and Zwei little match...well... is Ein really okay now? i hope so.... i wont even comment Cal's appearence in the preview cause it was rather obvious she is alive. So now she feel betrayed and because she is talented she will be recruited by Inferno to be third phantom? kewl. I just hope she wont get all focus now, and we will get to see EinxZweis sweet life in Mexico... |
noteDhero said: I say this based on the way she dismissed Reiji's thoughts on a third party manipulating everyone. She trusted Claudia wholeheartedly despite not thinking for herslef. This goes back to what I said a few episodes ago about Lizzy just blindly following Claudia. Yes, and then SHE FOUND OUT THAT SHE WAS BETRAYED BY CLAUDIA. When the facts change, people tend to change their minds too. You should try that too, every once in a while. Also, based on the lack of a reaction Lizzy had when Godoh revealed most of everything is another reason why I just didn't think that she cared. Factually wrong. When Daisuke revealed the truth, Lizzie screamed out expletives, struggled, and ultimately raced right to Claudia's villa. Then we have the fact that she went with Claudia all of the way out to the beach and killed her, without demanding an explanation or anything. What was that all about, if not to give Claudia the chance to win her over? Lizzy continued to be someone that trusted Claudia over Inferno. You're inconsistent again, because you're arguing MY position. Doing so indicates loyalty to her. In my reading (I can't say this with certainty, since it didn't happen in the VN), Lizzie was still hoping to find a way out of this bad dream, a way for Clau to explain what happened, which allowed for some kind of resolution. After all, Claudia continued to explain her position during the drive. It didn't happen. I don't even know that she trusted Inferno based solely off of that flashback. That's why I point to it. I have no reason to believe she has any loyalty to Ray McGwire. Naturally she does. She is a mobster working for a criminal organization. You may not like the people on top, but a kill order was put out on Claudia. And Claudia just turned out to be someone who sold her out, and thus undeserving of her loyalty. Example: You find out that the investment banker you have been best buddies all along gave all your money over all the years is actually an embezzling fraud who gambled with your money, and by a hairs' breadth might have bankrupted you a year ago. Would you continue to invest in him? You'd be a moron if you did. Why are you surprised that Lizzie is NO moron? What needs to be rephrased? Loyalty isn't a theme because it isn't an idea that gets delved into of its own accord. It's there because you can't discuss betrayal without loyalty, but as a subject of its own, it doesn't emerge. Would you kindly acknowledge that loyalty is a prerequisite for betrayal? And that your stubborn insistence that Phantom isn't about loyalty, but about betrayal instead, doesn't make any sense? Naturally it's about betrayal _aswell_ . What I consider much more interesting however is how loyalty is gradually tested and put under stress and strain, until it breaks (betrayal). The show is about _both_ Lizzy doesn't struggle. She demands no explanation from Claudia and like an off switch chooses Inferno over Claudia. Where do we see that struggle? We don't. Factually wrong too. Let's make a quick list: (Ep18 only) 5:42ff Lizzie rushes to Claudia's villa, with tears in her eyes 10:30ff Lizzie continues to swear at the Inferno guy who implies that it might be hard for her to kill Claudia over her friendship. After hanging up, she looks depressed, gets out and sends a death glare to Claudia. 12:00ff Lizzie wants to know WHY Claudia has been betraying everyone, and she isn't happy about the answers at all. More tears of disappointment at 12:50. 13:33 Lizzie drops her face with a resigned look when she decides to do her job. 14:45 Final tears in a shrieking reaction when Claudia apologizes to Lizzie. Well. If you can't see any struggle after all this, this show may be too complex for you. I agree that he was deceived, but it was absolutely a scheme to save his hide. A good bit of the Godoh group died when Ein shot up Daisuke and everyone, so to say his loyalty there wasn't also betrayed is faulty. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure that trusting some hidden third party over your boss is not the greatest display of loyalty to both the boss and the organization. What "scheme to save his hide"? Again, Shiga hasn't done anything that needed cover up. It was Daisuke's decision to escalate, not Shiga's. He simply took the misleading photo to Daisuke, that was it. We were shown several scenes of Shiga alone with internal monologue underlining that he REALLY adored his aniki. No she wasn't. Reiji knew from the second that Godoh member in the casino died that Ein was alive. And if he didn't totally believe it (he clearly suspected her, so to say that he thought she was dead at this point is wrong), he knew after that sniper shot on the rooftops. Wrong. He suspected it, but he considered it impossible since he SAW her hit by his bullet. To quote ep17, timecode 10:55: "Impossible... you're still alive?". Before this scene, he didn't "know". He knew it was Ein, knew she was the one behind Judy's death, and decided that his attachment to her superseded his to Cal, and without a second thought, lied to her. Also wrong. After his confrontation with Ein, he never spoke with Cal again. If you really insist on your radical interpretation, please cite episodes and timecodes supporting your theory. It means it exists, but that doesn't make it a theme. I never said that loyalty doesn't exist. I said thematically it isn't strong because it isn't pervasive. I'll leave it to your superior mind to come up with a plausible explanation how you can discuss the topic of betrayal while at the same insisting that loyalty is irrelevant. That's like discussing the topic of death while insisting that life doesn't matter. Stay with the woman who used you time and time again, and whose scheming caused your partner (Ein) to be shot in a fault attack against your own organization... wow. The better reason is that defying her and therefore Inferno is more dangerous than Ein defying SM. But I'm glad you agree that it's flimsy. I'm sorry for using sarcasm to confuse you more. So let me explain: If Lizzie had done what YOU (!) had expected (staying loyal to her, even after she learned the truth), THEN she would have done what I wrote before. I was making fun of YOUR position, not mine. It was YOUR expectation that would have been "flimsy". She did NOT stay with the woman who did all the misdeeds (like you expected). She KILLED her. Yes. That betrayal. There is a difference between defiance and betrayal. Ein defied SM, but betrayed Reiji by returning to Scythe. If you insist, we can agree on that this is arguably a "betrayal". But doesn't that mean that she showed a higher degree of loyalty to SM, then? ;) Does that need further explanation? And she shot Daisuke because that was SM's orders; that it happened to coincide with saving Reiji (which I believe the whole thing was SMs manipulation anyway) is moot. Actually, it wasn't. It was instigated by Daisuke (how do we know? It was impulsive and stupid, and didn't help him any. I believe that SM would have been smarter). But okay, I have no problem with accepting this interpretation of yours as plausible. No. I listed examples where loyalty was not the role, but rather betrayal. And again I will refer to the first point that I made: Loyalty is there because it goes hand in hand with betrayal. Loyalty in and of itself is never delved into. Betrayal, and the machinations that go with it, however, are. What is this "delved into"? Your initial claim was that Phantom was lacking any themes other than "revenge". I was pointing out that it did - for example "Loyalty". Then you rumpelstilzchened on the ground and said "nonono, it's about the opposite of it, betrayal!" - fine. It's about that, too. The reason why I still say that Loyalty is a better description is that the show is about the DEVELOPMENT from loyalty to its breakdown. It's a periodic process, and we get to witness it. Betrayal however is merely a point in time. The "crack" of a breaking log. I find it more interesting to watch what CAUSES the log to break, not the crack itself. What we HAVE established by now is that your initial contention - "Phantom is all about revenge, nothing else" is obviously wrong. "Revenge" is something different - a subtheme, certainly, but not the focus. And it wouldn't be difficult to pick out more themes from the source. You only need to watch it closely and understand it. |
MentarAug 6, 2009 3:52 PM
kerobear said: tsubasalover said: The house has been burned! Oh, that guy was Claudia's younger brother instead and Lizzy was involved. Scythe master used bad words about Zwei to order Ein to attack Zwei... Scythe master still creeps me. Lizzy killed Claudia, correct? Wow, Ein actually shed tear (has feeling). what do u mean by claudia's younger brother. u mean romero? and yes lizzie killed Claudia.=] I think so, I don't remember every character's name. |
I ♥ Two Syaorans from Tsubasa RESERVoir CHRoNiCLE and TRC!!! |
| I just simply don't get the big amount of betrayal here, childhood friends yet they kill each other, Amazed by the low fluent animation now, its really sad that they had to turn a very good dark story on a choppy low quality one. I just can't feel the emotions of Elen and Reiji, I can't believe either that Cal really died; I thought they just didn't made it dramatic since I couldn't sense the... 'sad scheme'. Why the heck is she wearing a bulletproof vest in the middle of the street? No really... |
Tamaki-san said: Why the heck is she wearing a bulletproof vest in the middle of the street? No really... LOL, cosplaying much ? Or maybe it was an anti-boobs-grabbing measure... I was too bored to even notice it, thanks for mentioning xD |
 If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
abrasicu said: Tamaki-san said: Why the heck is she wearing a bulletproof vest in the middle of the street? No really... LOL, cosplaying much ? Or maybe it was an anti-boobs-grabbing measure... I was too bored to even notice it, thanks for mentioning xD I was actually wondering the exact same thing when watching the episode xD Of all things she chose to wear when fighting Reiji, she chose her usual yellow sleeveless top and grey skirt...and when she's out in normal civilization, she wears combat gear LOL @Mentar & noteDhero tl;dr You two completely lost me x_x;; |
Aeterna said: abrasicu said: Tamaki-san said: Why the heck is she wearing a bulletproof vest in the middle of the street? No really... LOL, cosplaying much ? Or maybe it was an anti-boobs-grabbing measure... I was too bored to even notice it, thanks for mentioning xD I was actually wondering the exact same thing when watching the episode xD Of all things she chose to wear when fighting Reiji, she chose her usual yellow sleeveless top and grey skirt...and when she's out in normal civilization, she wears combat gear LOL @Mentar & noteDhero tl;dr You two completely lost me x_x;; Shhh... Dont you know all...well, ALMOST all anime characters have different sets of the same clothes ? Oh wai-, I just realized her clothes allow more " easy access" as demonstrated in this ep, so never mind then ;p |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
| Wow, this was very good. Next epi. CALL. Damn the Drama xD |
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| Yay Ein and Reiji >_< |
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Mentar said: Yes, and then SHE FOUND OUT THAT SHE WAS BETRAYED BY CLAUDIA. When the facts change, people tend to change their minds too. You should try that too, every once in a while. But it wouldn't matter because you'd call me inconsistent. Like you did when I accepted betrayal as a theme. Factually wrong. When Daisuke revealed the truth, Lizzie screamed out expletives, struggled, and ultimately raced right to Claudia's villa. You're inconsistent again, because you're arguing MY position. Doing so indicates loyalty to her. In my reading (I can't say this with certainty, since it didn't happen in the VN), Lizzie was still hoping to find a way out of this bad dream, a way for Clau to explain what happened, which allowed for some kind of resolution. After all, Claudia continued to explain her position during the drive. It didn't happen. I'll say that I had a different interpretation: that Lizzie was in denial and already running away with Claudia since she didn't kill her outside the diner, and by then she just wanted some justification. I saw the murder as something abrupt since to me it could have happened much earlier and she didn't do it. But I re-watched that part, and I see that it can be taken the way that you see it. I still think it's ridiculous that she didn't go outright and ask her what the hell was going on instead of dancing around with metaphor, but that's fine. Naturally she does. She is a mobster working for a criminal organization. You may not like the people on top, but a kill order was put out on Claudia. And Claudia just turned out to be someone who sold her out, and thus undeserving of her loyalty. Example: You find out that the investment banker you have been best buddies all along gave all your money over all the years is actually an embezzling fraud who gambled with your money, and by a hairs' breadth might have bankrupted you a year ago. Would you continue to invest in him? You'd be a moron if you did. Why are you surprised that Lizzie is NO moron? I'm surprised that Lizzy is no moron because she's only acted like a moron, reacting only to what she sees and not looking in between the lines. I'd think that in an organization like Inferno, and having a friend like Claudia, she would have learned to think for herself, but like she said a few episodes ago to Reiji, she just follows Claudia's orders and doesn't think about anything else. I assumed that her loyalties always lie with her no matter what because she knew what her ultimate goal was. But I was wrong, surprised, and found it weird. Would you kindly acknowledge that loyalty is a prerequisite for betrayal? And that your stubborn insistence that Phantom isn't about loyalty, but about betrayal instead, doesn't make any sense? Naturally it's about betrayal _aswell_ . What I consider much more interesting however is how loyalty is gradually tested and put under stress and strain, until it breaks (betrayal). The show is about _both_ I could have sworn I had already said a few times that loyalty is on the same side of the coin as betrayal, because you can't have one without the other. I never said Phantom wasn't about loyalty, I said it wasn't as strong a theme and not as examined as betrayal, which I also said was always a way of furthering revenge, the main theme of the show. If you ask me, the show is about revenge. Claudia's desire for revenge fueled almost all of the conflict of the first arc, where as SM's revenge was the force driving this arc. Neither of them were loyal to each other from the get go. Under revenge you have the main character, Reiji's, need to avenge Ein's death, and Cal's wanting to avenge Judy. And then, as I mentioned posts ago, there is the theme of survival that each major character deals with. To me the way loyalty is examined pales in comparison to that. Factually wrong too. Let's make a quick list: (Ep18 only) 5:42ff Lizzie rushes to Claudia's villa, with tears in her eyes 10:30ff Lizzie continues to swear at the Inferno guy who implies that it might be hard for her to kill Claudia over her friendship. After hanging up, she looks depressed, gets out and sends a death glare to Claudia. 12:00ff Lizzie wants to know WHY Claudia has been betraying everyone, and she isn't happy about the answers at all. More tears of disappointment at 12:50. 13:33 Lizzie drops her face with a resigned look when she decides to do her job. 14:45 Final tears in a shrieking reaction when Claudia apologizes to Lizzie. Well. If you can't see any struggle after all this, this show may be too complex for you. As I said before, I read it a different way, but that works too. What "scheme to save his hide"? Again, Shiga hasn't done anything that needed cover up. It was Daisuke's decision to escalate, not Shiga's. He simply took the misleading photo to Daisuke, that was it. We were shown several scenes of Shiga alone with internal monologue underlining that he REALLY adored his aniki. Maybe I'm connecting the dots where there were none, but I got the feeling that Shiga knew about Ein killing the whole gang as Daisuke confronted Reiji. Also wrong. After his confrontation with Ein, he never spoke with Cal again. If you really insist on your radical interpretation, please cite episodes and timecodes supporting your theory. I'm talking about on the rooftops during the sniper mission in which Cal was the scout. It seemed like Reiji knew that the only person capable of that shot was Ein, confirming his opinions about what happened in the Casino. After all, this leads to his talk to Lizzy in the bar where she tells him, as I have referenced before, something along the lines of, "Don't think to hard, that's Claudia's job. We're just muscle." I'll leave it to your superior mind to come up with a plausible explanation how you can discuss the topic of betrayal while at the same insisting that loyalty is irrelevant. That's like discussing the topic of death while insisting that life doesn't matter. Once again you continue to put words in my mouth. I never said loyalty is irrelevant, I said it isn't examined nearly as much as betrayal, survival, and revenge. What is this "delved into"? Your initial claim was that Phantom was lacking any themes other than "revenge". I was pointing out that it did - for example "Loyalty". Then you rumpelstilzchened on the ground and said "nonono, it's about the opposite of it, betrayal!" - fine. It's about that, too. delve: transitive verb - a : to make a careful or detailed search for information <delved into the past> b : to examine a subject in detail <the book delves into the latest research> I merely disagreed that it was about loyalty as much as it is about betrayal, which, again, I said, in the context of the show is connected to betrayal. The reason why I still say that Loyalty is a better description is that the show is about the DEVELOPMENT from loyalty to its breakdown. It's a periodic process, and we get to witness it. Betrayal however is merely a point in time. The "crack" of a breaking log. I find it more interesting to watch what CAUSES the log to break, not the crack itself. What we HAVE established by now is that your initial contention - "Phantom is all about revenge, nothing else" is obviously wrong. "Revenge" is something different - a subtheme, certainly, but not the focus. And it wouldn't be difficult to pick out more themes from the source. You only need to watch it closely and understand it. Betrayal is a point in time, I agree, but since the show uses dramatic irony quite a lot, characters go on being betrayed without knowing so, and when they do find out, there is a question of who did it. That is why it is much more the focus than loyalty, in my opinion. As for revenge being the sub-theme I clearly disagree since I stated just how much that idea is apart of the structure of the show. To re-iterate, these are the themes in my opinion I. Revenge __a. betrayal ____i. loyalty II.Survival |
noteDheroAug 7, 2009 3:36 PM
| way to go, walls of text Mentar and noteDhero....<_< ok, I think Claudia killed by Lizzie was very stupid. What is the message here? That the mafia are a bunch of selfish people who can even kill their own mom? I mean, come on, Lizzie, Claudia's childhood friend, kills her. Shiga, "loyal" follower of Godou, kills him simply Scythe said so...Not the mention in the past how Tony's entire family was wiped out.....And that McGuire guy, is he the chief executive of Inferno or something? He never does anything but sitting there and observe.... The only exception seems to be Ein and Zwei, who looks like hey'll never betray each other.... I mean, seriously, WTF? Yeah, Cal is getting pimped by Scythe as a possible phantom, but it seems Scythe is mass-producing Phantoms from the look of this episode.... All we need now is for Zwei to return to Japan , go to high school and meet Godou's sister and pull off a Black Lagoon's second season-style ending. That Mio thing looks VERY VERY familiar to me....I wouldn't be surprised if Mio kills herself at the end like that girl from Black Lagoon did lol. And they aren't very subtle, aren't they.... Counting the number of times the Mongolia pamphlet has appeared in the series, clearly Ein/Elen is from Mongolia. Sure I didn't see that coming <_<..... This series is like a roller coaster, it has its good moments, but sometimes, it's really annoying.... |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
abrasicu said: Tamaki-san said: Why the heck is she wearing a bulletproof vest in the middle of the street? No really... LOL, cosplaying much ? Or maybe it was an anti-boobs-grabbing measure... I was too bored to even notice it, thanks for mentioning xD THat was funny |
| LET JUSTICE BE DONE; THOUGH THE HEAVENS MAY FALL |
| oh wakka9ca, please make sure your posts are under spoiler tags...because I don't want to know any future or potential future plotlines. Thank you. Well, I like the character relationships in this anime. That's my fav aspect about the show. |
| No man fails if he does his best - Orison Swett Marden |
oh wakka9ca, please make sure your posts are under spoiler tags...because I don't want to know any future or potential future plotlines. Thank you. He was posting his predictions, not spoilers. ok, I think Claudia killed by Lizzie was very stupid. What is the message here? That the mafia are a bunch of selfish people who can even kill their own mom? I mean, come on, Lizzie, Claudia's childhood friend, kills her. I mus agree with this. I would have prefered it if it was like in the VN where Lizzie wasn't able to shoot at Claudia thus resulting in Claudia escaping and being killed by Inferno later on. |
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| maybe lizzie hasn`t shoot Claudia |
I`M A MURDERER |
Racu said: Havn't played the game, but I highly! doubt it. Unlike Reiji, Cal, Elen death. It was animated like a final death scene, the necklace thrown up in the air and the footprints wiped away with the waves. Plus they had the flashback just before it, to support why Lizze is going to do what she will do. maybe lizzie hasn`t shoot Claudia Still considering the chances of characters surviving in the show, and how we never did hear or see it, there is a small chance. But not enough to think about. Everything did point to it being a death scene. |
reptiliaAug 8, 2009 2:59 AM
maybe lizzie hasn`t shoot Claudia Claudia will be dead anyway as she has no chances of surviving against Inferno. |
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| yes she will be killed but i dont think Lizzie shoot her bcz all she did was for Claudia we havent a confirmatio on Clau`s death |
| I`M A MURDERER |
yes she will be killed but i dont think Lizzie shoot her bcz all she did was for Claudia we havent a confirmatio on Clau`s death There are far too many hints too not make it obvious that she is dead. It is not like in Cal's case where we saw an empty room before explosion. And neither is there any reason to put the beach scene into the story unless Claudia dies. Also, Inferno won't believe that Claudia is dead unless Lizzie brings Claudia's corpse to them. If there is no corpse, Lizzie will be immediately labeled a traitor. Thats the way Inferno does it and the only way for Lizzie to survive all this is by bringing Claudia's corpse to McGuire. This is not like in the VN. Here Lizzie said that she will kill Claudia and she no longer has a choice. Oh, and don't let me get started on how loyal Lizzie is to Inferno. |
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Nayrael said: yes she will be killed but i dont think Lizzie shoot her bcz all she did was for Claudia we havent a confirmatio on Clau`s death And neither is there any reason to put the beach scene into the story unless Claudia dies. FANSERVICE, man... FANSERVICE for those MILF lovers like myself, I know I fap to Claudia running on the beach scene, laughing like a high schooler even if its out of her character, a shame she didnt put on a band-aid bikini though... I've always wanted to see her in a swimsuit, but now its too late :( .... The anime world has lost a great MILF & it made me crying through my nose T^T |
If he's not with us, he's AGAINST us!!! |
| But why didn't they put her into a bikini then? Why did they make the world suffer so much? |
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| This episode was great! But I'm afraid of the direction which is taking the story. I'm pretty sure Cal will come to Reiji and be jealous of Ellen. Come on! Can't they stop with the not-so-dead characters coming back for unjustified revenge! Overused trope is overused. I'll be very disappointed if it comes down to a fight-to-death between Reiji's women. |
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