Sukunai said: Well isn't it? Most people would not like being whipped, handcuffed or bound and gagged, but some people find that really fun, and if they enjoy it, surely it's no problem? Any form of torture, abuse and so on clearly is no problem if both the abuser and the abusee(This should be a word.) enjoy themselves. Next you will be saying 'as long as women don't mind [insert abuse here], it's ok'. |
Sukunai said: That is so devoid of logic it's amazing. First I couldn't care less if Muslim women want to be property or not. But the fact is, they do not mind being property. And to label it any other way just opens a lot of doors you don't want opened. Next you will be saying 'as long as women don't mind [insert abuse here], it's ok'. I do not like the way you use the word "logic". It is as if you are unaware it has a meaning. And what Baman said. The problem is that they are not allowed as much freedom as possible, not that some of them do not want it. |
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Baman said: Sukunai said: Well isn't it? Most people would not like being whipped, handcuffed or bound and gagged, but some people find that really fun, and if they enjoy it, surely it's no problem? Any form of torture, abuse and so on clearly is no problem if both the abuser and the abusee(This should be a word.) enjoy themselves. Next you will be saying 'as long as women don't mind [insert abuse here], it's ok'. is not abusee a word? i would have thougt it would have be 'the abused' but abusee seems like it should work. i recomend we send a commesion to veriy the situation and enter a petion for its usage in the dictionary. do you concur? also @ sukani: I agree, but only to a point. a lot of muslim women to choose to be 'slaves' i use that tterm loosly because they dont see it as slavery as baman explained if they are totally aware of the situation and are consenting it cant really be deemed as abuse if they enjoy it. the problem is you look at things from a male perspective in that as men we dont consider submission as a state of affairs we agree with because it insults our masculinity. but women are naturally programmed to be the submissive. to take not to give. doggy style for example is not a degrading sexual act its really enjoyable for the woman and it permits easy acess. but if you bent a man over it would be destrying his masculinty so we consider it that they must feel the same way. they dont. at least not all. some muslim women like being controlled it suits thier personality. not all women feel the same way but it is fair to say that that state of affiars works for the most part. not all i admit but enough. there will always be people who take the advatge of power and abuse without consent and just because some do does not mean the rest are the same. its over generalisation. |
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| Concepts of masculinity and femininity are just so tricky and fall apart under careful scrutiny. as men we dont consider submission as a state of affairs we agree with because it insults our masculinity. There are many men who submit to superiors as a regular state of affairs. Anyone who has a boss, for example, is going to submit to their authority. This rigid structure of authority-submission is pretty visible in the military, for example. but women are naturally programmed to be the submissive. to take not to give. Hahahaha, I love sexist generalizations. Even when women are visibly submitting to men they have tendencies to be subversive, because frankly, it's very few women (or people in general) that WANT to be submissive, only giving and never taking. This idea that women are "naturally programmed" to be selfless is pretty deluded. but if you bent a man over it would be destrying his masculinty What is masculinity anyway? How is it destroyed in such a manner? so we consider it that they must feel the same way. they dont. Women might be different from men, but we're all still human. Humiliation is humiliation, women aren't predisposed to "like it better" or not feel scandalized. not all women feel the same way Ding ding. This goes for all people. Generalizations are useful but trying to force them to work on all individuals causes them to fall apart. Ultimately you have to take people on an individual basis, which is to say take them as they are, and not get frustrated when they don't work out in your grander generalizations (in this case of man, woman, masculine, feminine). but it is fair to say that that state of affiars works for the most part. Considering how little opportunity is afforded to women around the world compared to men, or how little authority women are given even over their own bodies, much less their own lives, I would say that it most certainly does NOT work. Any state of affairs that does not fully protect the rights of all its members or citizens is not a state of affairs that it is fair to say works (though it may be functioning). |
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url_elf said: Also, it should be noted that men and women dominate in different ways. In a study on dominance, low or high dominant (dominance scores determined by some personality test) men and women were paired up to do some tasks, where one would be the leader and the other the follower. In nearly all the cases of dominant man and submissive woman, the man appointed himself as the leader, and interestingly, in most of the dominant woman and submissive man pairings, the woman appointed the man to be the leader.but women are naturally programmed to be the submissive. to take not to give. Hahahaha, I love sexist generalizations. Even when women are visibly submitting to men they have tendencies to be subversive, because frankly, it's very few women (or people in general) that WANT to be submissive, only giving and never taking. This idea that women are "naturally programmed" to be selfless is pretty deluded. Clearly, the woman was dominating in these cases, but did so indirectly rather than taking control herself. Still, gender roles are cultural constructs. As for women being belittled and looked down upon in other cultures, we have no right to say anything on the matter. "Human rights" are nothing but a cultural construct too. Claiming these to be universal and enforcing them on everyone is nothing but tyrannical ethnocentrism. |
Baman said: Though, you gotta admit that this sounds pretty cool.tyrannical ethnocentrism |
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| Men fucking suck. |
| sad |
StephanBlackhawk said: TT__TTMen fucking suck. |
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Vagabond said: Of course. I wouldn't object to having everyone forced to follow my principles.Baman said: Though, you gotta admit that this sounds pretty cool.tyrannical ethnocentrism But it would get boring after a while, no conflicts and such. |
| Humans tend to suck in general. |
 Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
Baman said: No worries in that department. There will always be 'terrorist' factions.Vagabond said: Of course. I wouldn't object to having everyone forced to follow my principles.Baman said: Though, you gotta admit that this sounds pretty cool.tyrannical ethnocentrism But it would get boring after a while, no conflicts and such. ukonkivi said: I like to think of us as terribly interesting.Humans tend to suck in general. |
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| So basically you're arguing that men are useless, vile creatures, yet you are a man? This seems self-defeating. If what you're saying is true, no man would ever admit to this as you are. |
| I'm back. |
Vagabond said: I like to think of us as terribly interesting. Oh, we are interesting. But we still suck. Key word there is TERRIBLY. We are terribly interesting. |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| although the op list is rather ridiculous, you need to keep in mind that men receive male privilege simply from being born male. there are some things (privileges) that i will never have access to simply because i am not a man. |
Still, gender roles are cultural constructs. As for women being belittled and looked down upon in other cultures, we have no right to say anything on the matter. "Human rights" are nothing but a cultural construct too. Claiming these to be universal and enforcing them on everyone is nothing but tyrannical ethnocentrism. This is true - we only have "inalienable rights" because we as a group (country) recognize that these rights exist and agree that they are inalienable and that everyone (here, at least) ought to have them. Rather than being born in America, I could have been born somewhere where these rights are not recognized, or don't exist for me. In this sense, they are a cultural value or construct. Despite this, I am in favor of spreading this concept, and helping others to realize their rights. Tyrannically ethnocentric of me? Not quite, I think - I do it from a place of humanism more than ethnocentricism (although swapping out one cultural value for another doesn't improve my argument). In the end, I suppose it's just humans arguing over who's subjective perspective and manner of doing things is best? As individuals, I think, it's easier to approach life from this perspective - embracing a sort of inherent subjectivity to everything - than it is for a nation to approach, say, foreign policy or lawmaking from this same perspective. |
url_elfMay 2, 2009 10:16 AM
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Baman said: Claiming these to be universal and enforcing them on everyone is nothing but tyrannical ethnocentrism. Yet being against tyrannical ethnocentrism is a subjective value as well. You could say imperialism is a relative cultural value held by some cultures. |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
ukonkivi said: I know... I put the terribly there for a reason, lol.Vagabond said: Oh, we are interesting. But we still suck.I like to think of us as terribly interesting. Key word there is TERRIBLY. We are terribly interesting. |
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ukonkivi said: Well, you got me there. I didn't say tyrannic ethnocentrism was wrong though. But I do think that people should realize that, even if they still support it, it is not universal, but merely one cultural value amongst many. Baman said: Claiming these to be universal and enforcing them on everyone is nothing but tyrannical ethnocentrism. Yet being against tyrannical ethnocentrism is a subjective value as well. You could say imperialism is a relative cultural value held by some cultures. You can argue which is better than the other in many ways, be it through a utilitarian perspective or whatever, but nothing is more silly than going all moralistic and claiming something to be right just because one's culture think it is. But bottom line, it doesn't matter what people think is right, only the most powerful and adaptive culture will be able to establish a hegemony in the end, something the Anglo Saxon culture managed brilliantly. But for the sake of enlightenment, one should understand that morals and ethics are relativistic. But then again, that's just one of my opinions. |
ukonkivi said: Humans tend to suck in general. thats one of the redeming qualities in humans their ability to suck...id ont really have to finish thei sentence do it i mean you know where it heading right I MEAN YOU DO RIGHT!!! Baman said: AND THATS THE BOTTOM LINE>>>COS I SAID SO  |
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| Stereotypes just don't appear but I'd like to point out that: khorven said: I would say it's the other way round. Actually.# Men tend to be more self-centred |
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| I have noticed, that men have larger penis than women. |
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LolitaDecay said: Stereotypes just don't appear but I'd like to point out that: khorven said: I would say it's the other way round. Actually.# Men tend to be more self-centred Esley said: I have noticed, that men have larger penis than women. Both of these are very true. I think the self centered aspect comes from the female having to be protective over thier offspring carrying it to term and protecting it from the elements. It's a natural feature in women since they have to think about what is best for them and thier child or enviorment of possible children. I think the smaller penis comes from the fact that, they have a vagina, so, the penis never formed properly. |
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