Why did you like/dislike the ending of Attack on Titan?

Yesterday, 11:26 PM

#51

Irshiki

Offline

Apr 2022

431

ktg said:
@CipherKen I address this separately, because you are not lying, so I can keep this thread clean.

CipherKen said:
Was there a specific thing you thought Zeke was stupid to do?

I had a previous comment where I explained this, here's the quote:

ktg said:
- So I assume that you agree that Zeke was portrayed as a smart person, so I won't mention scenes to prove that. Zeke assumed that when Eren and he touch each other, he would be in control. This was risky and stupid, because there was no proof of that. From his POV, it would have been better to - even forcefully - touch Eren in Marly (we had a flashback when they first time met in Marley), and if it turns out that he cannot control the founding titan, he still could have used the Marley's army to stop Eren. Eren would have been alone without backup and Zeke could have lied how he accidentally ran into Eren and wasn't plotting something.
Even if we assume that Zeke wanted to make sure that the Rumbling works, so wanted to have a mini Rumbling. He could have tried that when he landed with Eren in that aircraft on Paradis. They were close and there was no reason to wait. Paradis' forces weren't even smart enough to keep them in separate rooms.
The reason why I mentioned that they should have tried at that point is because they waited, Eren got beheaded, so "almost" failed to execute their plan. And if you think about it, they didn't do anything during that time. Zeke was sitting in a forest and Eren was sitting in a cell. So by waiting, they simply risked their plan, because Marley needed some time for plot reasons, while logically this makes no sense.
(Also, if we accept my previous point to be a plot hole, then they should have failed factually.)

CipherKen said:
Remember, Zeke didn't know the founder's true powers

That's correct, but previously he was portrayed as a smart, cautious man. So accepted Eren's ideas, or I assume Eren proposed them and not Zeke, was a stupid thing to do.
He should have forced a contact when he met Eren in Marley, so in case Eren was "truly" bad, not brainwashed and Zeke couldn't control the founding titan, he had a chance to stop him because his "allies" were in Marley.

CipherKen said:
Think of it as a severe upset in power scales, the rumbling wiped everything out, people, trees, houses, establishments, military bases.. etc, so you don't have the same resources, material, or manpower anymore, even if they know what to invent, people would be too busy surviving and rebuilding instead of waging a war against a nation that wasn't affected.

Yes, I understood, my point is that even if at that point technologically they are on the same level as the Paradis Island, they will still advance faster, so there's no "real peace", because it takes a year and they are already ahead again, theoretically.
So there's no way to have 2 civilization with the same amount of resources, knowledge and technology.

Also, as far as I know, the 20% that Eren left behind is still significantly more than what Paradis' population was, at least based on the estimations. Like on Paradis we have couple million people at best, while on the whole planet hundred millions. So a conservative estimation would be that 500 million people lived on the whole planet and 20% of that is 100 million. Compared to Paradis' couple millions, that's a huge difference.
Like if they wanted to punish Paradis Island, they could have. They even lost their walls, so they had no chance to defend themselves.

You're the only one stating that a mental journey is a time traveler. So, even before Eren, the Owl did a time travel. Something that can be explained by their power, looking into other users memories, become time travel. Something so easy, people able to look at each other and interact because they have the same power to look into users memories become time travel. What about this, when you remember what you ate yesterday, is that time travel too? When you ask your friends what they did yesterday, is that time travel too?
Fixed timeline doesn't mean everything go according to Eren. Fixed timeline mean that there are no changes in the past. Eren perverting Grisha has always happend, it's not something that happening as the first time when you see it during the story, it already happend, that's what fixed timeline means. Even something you see as a plot twist, some game changing moment, has already happend and that's not because I'm inventing it, but because the story is written that way.
And yes, your point was trying to convince me that Eren changed anything since you've tried to use this to prove me wrong.

Today, 1:44 AM

#52

DigitalParadox

Offline

Feb 2016

22

Reply to ghier

DigitalParadox said:
I've just finished a rewatch of the series for the 3rd time. I've watched it in both sub and dub if that matters to anyone.

I have a couple small gripes with some of the shows narrative just because I don't feel like they were thoroughly explained. I'm not referring to major plot points that encourage you to fill in the blanks based on previous context but just some very minor things that I felt could have used a little more fleshing out. That being said, as a whole, the show is an easy 9.6/10 for me.

My question is as the title says. I know many people dislike the ending for a number of reasons whether that is the lack of a happy ending, the perception that certain characters acted differently towards the end, or the fact the whole thing was potentially "pointless". I've also heard people who disliked season 4 as a whole because it was quite different to earlier seasons. To be clear, these are just things I've heard people say in discussion or what I've seen in other threads.

I will say I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand. The story and character motivations definitely become clearer and easier to understand on additional watches. Isayama does a very good job tying most things together and I've noticed many explanations I've read of "plot holes" are simply things some people misinterpreted or didn't understand correctly.

All that being said, I would love to know reasons why you did or did not enjoy the ending. I love discussing this show and I'm very open to other peoples opinions regarding it, even if they differ from my own. Please keep the discussion civil and if your reply isn't intended to be constructive, perhaps just pass by this thread.

Didn’t understand correctly, huh? Them are fighting words ya know.

Perhaps Isayama didn’t make the effort to fully flesh out his own world and characters. Not saying it’s an easy thing to do - there’s actually no limit to how much depth and complexity you can pour into these things - but all the more reason not to so easily defend it just because you like it. The more complex it gets, the easier it is to look over things and make mistakes.

Why don’t you explain it since you’re so certain it all works out.

@ghier How are they fighting words? I said "I've noticed ALOT of reasons people have stated in other discussions have ended up being plot points they simply didn't understand." I didn't say EVERY person. It's true based on the conversations I have had about it. Plenty of those people misunderstood certain plot points and after discussing it, changed their minds about disliking it. There were also plenty who did understand but just didn't like it. Nowhere did I say they didn't exist, it just wasn't relevant to the question I was asking.

I've also heard some very good reasons against it aswell. Some I even agreed with. Even in my original post I stated I have my own gripes about it. So why are you acting as if I personally attacked you? I have never spoken to you in my life. My comment was factual based on all the conversations I've had about it.

Also, no, I will not be explaining the entire plot of Attack on Titan for you haha. If you have a specific thing you'd like to discuss about it though, I would be more than happy to.

Today, 1:50 AM

#53

DigitalParadox

Offline

Feb 2016

22

Reply to itsrj20

DigitalParadox said:
@itsrj20 Yeah I apologise that it got unnecessarily heated. I was hoping to avoid that by addressing it in the original post before the fact but I suppose that is my mistake for expecting better from random people on the internet.

What I've come to realise through your very fact based and succinct explanation is that 99% of us seem to be on the exact same page as to how it works and have simply been arguing over what constitutes the term "time travel". My only argument against what you said would be the only way the time travel exists in the show is indeed through the introduction of a new power (the Paths linking all Subjects of Ymir through time) in the anime. Without it, the memories and control are not possible. But like I said, that just seems to be semantics over the terms used since we appear to be on the same page with how it actually functions. I feel if the other guy was less defensive and had attempted to explain as eloquently as yourself, we probably also would have been in agreement.

I appreciate the time you took to break it down.

Yes, that argument is valid, and you’re right about how it’s handled in universe. However, it’s still irrelevant to whether it counts as time travel, which was the main issue in the discussion. Almost all time travel in fiction requires a mechanism. I won’t list too many examples to avoid spoilers, but for instance, a device in Steins;Gate, time manipulating abilities in the Fate series, mind/consciousness based time travel in Erased (Revival), or AoT’s mechanism being Paths. All of these use different mechanisms to achieve time travel.

The presence of a mechanism does not disqualify something from being time travel. Paths are simply the in universe explanation, but the resulting backward information flow still fits a fixed timeline causal loop model. Although it’s implemented through an in universe power system, the mechanism functions as information based time travel.

@itsrj20 Yeah that makes a lot of sense. After reading your explanation I'm willing to concede that I was wrong in saying time travel didn't exist in the show. I still think I completely understand how it was implemented but denying it was time travel seems to have been incorrect. You explained your point very well.

5 hours ago

#54

ktg

Offline

May 2016

2277

Reply to Irshiki