Attack on Titan
Non-aggressive said: BlossomBurst said: I don't really understand either, just look how people are arguing in this thread. It's almost like people make fictional stories part of their identity.It didn't influence my opinion, I was just curious why everyone overhyped how bad it was What would you have us talk about on anime/manga board dude outside of anime/manga lol? |
majinale said: BlossomBurst said: I just finished, and though I didn't love the final battle and the weird way no one hated Eren nor care for the little glowing spine worm, but like, what was so bad about it? It worked and was alright, even if it wasn't mindblowing or unexpected. For one, I really liked how Eren failed in the end to end all war by making himself the one shared enemy. Also I really like how Eren's stoic facade falls apart similarly to what happened after Sasha in the airboat, and how the ending makes it so that they don't need titan solutions to human issues, but human solutions (i.e. diplomacy). Even with the extra 8 pages with Ymir and the future adding even more, why do people hate this? edit: also it's cool how titans and the desire for life are intertwined This thread is quite amusing. There is the chapter 139 thread with a gazillion pages and multiple other threads containing essays upon essays as to why people dislike the ending. If you really wanted to know why, you would just read one of said threads. The only objective truth that some people find very hard to accept, is that the ending is not well received by a sizable portion of the fan-base. Well yeah, of course I’m looking for subjective takes. I didn’t ask “why is AoT objectively bad change my mind”, I wanted to see why people reacted the way they did. I know many people don’t like it, which is why I asked. I’m not interested in objective truths about a comic book for teenagers. Not sure what you’re trying to tell me |
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BilboBaggins365 said: Non-aggressive said: I don't really understand either, just look how people are arguing in this thread. It's almost like people make fictional stories part of their identity. What would you have us talk about on anime/manga board dude outside of anime/manga lol? Pretty bad strawman right here. Nowhere did they say “stop talking about anime and manga on here” |
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BlossomBurst said: majinale said: This thread is quite amusing. There is the chapter 139 thread with a gazillion pages and multiple other threads containing essays upon essays as to why people dislike the ending. If you really wanted to know why, you would just read one of said threads. The only objective truth that some people find very hard to accept, is that the ending is not well received by a sizable portion of the fan-base. Well yeah, of course I’m looking for subjective takes. I didn’t ask “why is AoT objectively bad change my mind”, I wanted to see why people reacted the way they did. I know many people don’t like it, which is why I asked. I’m not interested in objective truths about a comic book for teenagers. Not sure what you’re trying to tell me Don't play the comic for teenagers card, there is nothing teenage about a series dealing with themes like racism,ancestral sins and genocide, it's also a topic you started which means that you care enough to do so. What i am trying to tell you is that there are multiple people that ask the same question as you, because they are dumbfounded by the mere possibility of others disliking the ending. Your opening post gave me that impression, if i misjudged your intentions i apologize. |
majinaleJun 6, 2021 12:44 PM
BlossomBurst said: BilboBaggins365 said: What would you have us talk about on anime/manga board dude outside of anime/manga lol? Pretty bad strawman right here. Nowhere did they say “stop talking about anime and manga on here” I just implied if you think this discussion is wrong it kills most discussion around anime and manga so I asked what would you rather see? If you believe that to be a strawman fine but I do see that statement in that light rather than intentionally misrepresenting it to defeat it. If you take away this discourse all that would be left is what is your favourite x and recommendations which doesn't involve much actual discussion. Pretty much any conversation around media is going to entail critique and refutations against it. Getting annoyed by this doesn't leave much. So my statement stands. majinale said: Don't play the comic for teenagers card, there is nothing teenage about a series dealing with themes like racism,ancestral sins and genocide, it's also a topic you started which means that you care enough to do so. What i am trying to tell you is that there are multiple people that ask the same question as you, because they are dumbfounded by the mere possibility of others disliking the ending. Your opening post gave me that impression, if i misjudged you intentions i apologize. I mean a kids story like ALTA has dealt with stuff like that. YA stories do deal with iffy things in them. Main reason they usually distinguish themselves from kids media is through often handling sensitive subjects. AOT was pretty YA targeted even once you started to approach the end it's hard to argue the appeal of Eren was that different from Lelouch from most of his run as a character. |
BilboBaggins365Jun 6, 2021 12:53 PM
BilboBaggins365 said: I mean a kids story like ALTA has dealt with stuff like that. YA stories do deal with iffy things in them. Main reason they usually distinguish themselves from kids media is through often handling sensitive subjects. AOT was pretty YA targeted even once you started to approach the end it's hard to argue the appeal of Eren was that different from Lelouch from most of his run as a character. I don't know what ALTA is, but i am willing to bet that there are no depiction of kids getting fed to dogs there. You also can't compare AoT with Code Geass either. The tone of these two series is very different even if they deal with similar themes. |
majinale said: BilboBaggins365 said: I mean a kids story like ALTA has dealt with stuff like that. YA stories do deal with iffy things in them. Main reason they usually distinguish themselves from kids media is through often handling sensitive subjects. AOT was pretty YA targeted even once you started to approach the end it's hard to argue the appeal of Eren was that different from Lelouch from most of his run as a character. I don't know what ALTA is, but i am willing to bet that there are no depiction of kids getting fed to dogs there. You also can't compare AoT with Code Geass either. The tone of these two series are very different even if they deal with similar themes. Avatar The Last Airbender and YA stories using horrific imagery to be edgy is common look at Hunger Games for instance. AOT would be marketed to teens if it was published as a novel in the West. You are also up to explain the tonal difference instead of just stating it. |
majinale said: BlossomBurst said: Well yeah, of course I’m looking for subjective takes. I didn’t ask “why is AoT objectively bad change my mind”, I wanted to see why people reacted the way they did. I know many people don’t like it, which is why I asked. I’m not interested in objective truths about a comic book for teenagers. Not sure what you’re trying to tell me Don't play the comic for teenagers card, there is nothing teenage about a series dealing with themes like racism,ancestral sins and genocide, it's also a topic you started which means that you care enough to do so. What i am trying to tell you is that there are multiple people that ask the same question as you, because they are dumbfounded by the mere possibility of others disliking the ending. Your opening post gave me that impression, if i misjudged your intentions i apologize. The teenager's comic thing was a joke. I'll make sure to check the other forum posts on the ending. |
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That's very tedious and kinda off topic, but we had some decent discussions in other threads so i ll try. While both series are serious art-wise (no caricatures), the amount of comic relief is double or triple in CG because of the high school setting. There are depictions of cruelty like the killing of civilians in both but AoT is more graphic. CG doesn't have the constant feeling of dread and anxiety that AoT has. If Eren and company lose, humanity within the walls is gone, while if Lelouch and the black knights lose the Japanese will just be second class citizens like every conquered nation, there is no institutionalized culling in store for them. The politics and geopolitics are written better in CG and it is the superior show in my opinion. Isayama should have stuck with the survival thriller theme. In fact the atrocious last arc of AoT makes me appreciate CG and shows that tie things neatly more. |
majinaleJun 6, 2021 1:41 PM
BlossomBurst said: majinale said: Don't play the comic for teenagers card, there is nothing teenage about a series dealing with themes like racism,ancestral sins and genocide, it's also a topic you started which means that you care enough to do so. What i am trying to tell you is that there are multiple people that ask the same question as you, because they are dumbfounded by the mere possibility of others disliking the ending. Your opening post gave me that impression, if i misjudged your intentions i apologize. The teenager's comic thing was a joke. I'll make sure to check the other forum posts on the ending. If there was a way to filter those who only insult the opposite oppinion it would be nice. Sadly at least half of the posts are of that nature. |
majinale said: That's very tedious and kinda off topic, but we had some decent discussions in other threads so i ll try. While both series are serious art-wise (no caricatures), the amount of comic relief is double or triple in CG because of the high school setting. There are depictions of cruelty like the killing of civilians in both but AoT is more graphic. CG doesn't have the constant feeling of dread and anxiety that AoT has. If Eren and company lose, humanity within the walls is gone, while if Lelouch and the black knights lose the Japanese will just be second class citizens like every conquered nation, there is no institutionalized culling in store for them. The politics and geopolitics are written better in CG and it is the superior show in my opinion. Isayama should have stuck with the survival thriller theme. In fact the atrocious last arc of AoT makes me appreciate CG and shows that tie things neatly more. To some degree I will agree it has more levity than AOT because of the HS setting but the actual themes and topics are quite similar. Sure it's not about necessarily total genocide but racism, imperialism all dominate the conversation of the story. So while it's not exact in those serious moments it is quite similar. It might not have the same feeling of dread but Eren does have a lot in common in terms of appeal with Lelouch in the later half where he is setup to be the revolutionary leader of a group of people oppressed by their government. To say it's exactly similar isn't what I am claiming only that the content isn't vastly different. The themes themselves again aren't different from a show like ATLA which also deals with genocide, racism and imperialism. The fact it doesn't have graphic gore or violence doesn't invalidate that fact. My response is that dealing with that content isn't inherently related to the demographic in question nor is violent or dark content in general. AOT is a action shonen manga that does have a lot of themes especially early on that appeal to teens. Even later on I think the Lelouch and Eren comparison can be fair in some ways. I don't get this aversion to why so many people have for the fact AOT is YA. Honestly even for more seinen titles it's arguable most of the content in this medium is to some degree mostly aimed at those in their upper teens maybe early 20s. (which also tends to be the case for a lot Western YA lit) |
Pecado_Carnal said: i fucking cackled at the mikasa walking across the ocean thing. these last chapters were so bad, i didn't even think of this point 😂- Eren pulling a Lelouch despite him saying it was a stupid idea in the first arc without any explanation for him changing his mind about it - Ymir loving her abuser - Eren killing his own mother to save Bert when, if he didn't do anything, Dina would have eating Bert, so they would have had a Royal Titan Shifter (Dinna) and a Titan Shifter (Grisha). The rumbling could have being done in chapter 1. If he could change things at will, he's a moron who's plan doesn't make sense. If he couldn't, he's a slave, everything was done by fate/Ymir and therefore the story is pointless. - Eren totally OOC breakdown over Mikasa and not the millions of people he's killing as the conversation with Armin takes place. Let's not forget him lying even in his inner monologues. - Armin thanking Eren for becoming a mass murderer - The parasyte leaving the show because his contract expired. - Mikasa walking back to Paradis despite being an ocean in between the island and the battlefield, not to mention every single piece of technology was destroyed by Eren in a previous chapter. - Annie, Karina, etc not suffering any consequences - Force Ghosts - The Alliance not getting shot in place. In fact Marley should've killed even the Eldians on their side after what they've seen. - The baby being a mistery for no fucking reason. Historia having a child to save his ass, therefore ruining her character. - The war is still going on, but now Paradis doesn't even has Titans to defend itself. It was established that there was Anti-Titan technology, so even having them all wouldn't be a guarentee for survival. - Marley Warriors and their victims being all Moomin-like friends with each other. - Reiner character is reduced to sniffing a letter. - Mikasa being allowed to stay in Paradis - Mikasa being unable to move on from Eren - Eren turning into a Hateful Boyfriend sequel bait or Mikasa being crazy as fuck if we take the 8 extra pages into account. I don't know what option is worse honestly. And that's just taking the original 139 release on itself, without taking into account the million plotholes it creates for the 138 previous chapters or the 8 extra pages. |
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BilboBaggins365 said: To say it's exactly similar isn't what I am claiming only that the content isn't vastly different. The themes themselves again aren't different from a show like ATLA which also deals with genocide, racism and imperialism. The fact it doesn't have graphic gore or violence doesn't invalidate that fact. So in essence we are not in any major disagreement. The level of "roughness" which a story can touch some themes varies and i am saying that AoT was just "rougher". The themes are still the same in which case my initial statement is just incomplete but not wrong. BilboBaggins365 said: I don't get this aversion to why so many people have for the fact AOT is YA. Honestly even for more seinen titles it's arguable most of the content in this medium is to some degree mostly aimed at those in their upper teens maybe early 20s. (which also tends to be the case for a lot Western YA lit) This aversion is because the intended audience and the actual audience are not always the same. Neither the author nor the publisher get to decide who actually reads the story. The Bessatsu magazine was created to host the manga that are good enough to get published but not fitting in the regular shounen mold, so the seinen/shounen characterization is already blurred. Add to that the fact that it was a long running series, If someone was 20 years old when he started reading AoT, he is 30 now. That places the core audience in the adult bracket. |
majinale said: So in essence we are not in any major disagreement. The level of "roughness" which a story can touch some themes varies and i am saying that AoT was just "rougher". The themes are still the same in which case my initial statement is just incomplete but not wrong. BilboBaggins365 said: I don't get this aversion to why so many people have for the fact AOT is YA. Honestly even for more seinen titles it's arguable most of the content in this medium is to some degree mostly aimed at those in their upper teens maybe early 20s. (which also tends to be the case for a lot Western YA lit) This aversion is because the intended audience and the actual audience are not always the same. Neither the author nor the publisher get to decide who actually reads the story. The Bessatsu magazine was created to host the manga that are good enough to get published but not fitting in the regular shounen mold, so the seinen/shounen characterization is already blurred. Add to that the fact that it was a long running series, If someone was 20 years old when he started reading AoT, he is 30 now. That places the core audience in the adult bracket. I mean AOT started getting popular when I was in that YA demographic around 16 years old when the anime first came out and guess who I saw mostly into it other teens between 14-17 .Even if you go back to sure when the manga came out 12 years ago it probably did try to mature with it's audience but that doesn't mean it really was that much different even early on. I am just saying that you are implying that by having horrific violence or certain themes that inherently makes it "adult" or not YA. I don't really agree with that statement at all because especially when you look outside of anime and manga you can find many instances of that. Even within this medium. The fact the core audience now is likely older didn't mean the overarching themes or style of writing changed that much. Hey most fans of YA books online seem to be people in their 30s too. That doesn't change the target audience or how it's written. AOT was and would have been targeted to teens if it was published as novel over here. |
BilboBaggins365 said: I am just saying that you are implying that by having horrific violence or certain themes that inherently makes it "adult" or not YA. I don't really agree with that statement at all because especially when you look outside of anime and manga you can find many instances of that. Even within this medium. I am not saying that the mere presence of some gore and themes make a series adult. But in AoT's case there is a clear WWII inspiration/allegory with the interment camps and all. That coupled with the consistent depiction of guilt derived from the sins of the ancestors, is enough for me to consider the story "adult". These are difficult topics and when you tackle them you need to tread lightly. Although at the end of the day i have to concede this one, because it turned out that Isayama just used those themes to be edgy. What makes a series into an "adult" one in your opinion? Is there even a clear way to differentiate them? I am curious to know. |
majinaleJun 6, 2021 4:26 PM
| 1) Eren choosing not save his mom, even with the ability to do so, then proceed to cringe simp for Mikasa. 2) Armin thanking Eren for the mass-genocide. 3) The BS twilight love story Ymir got going for the king. At least island got bombed in the new 8-pages so it’s somewhat redeemed. |
Is it just me or is there more to this? We know why he would have done this—revenge for his parents. Inevitably, he would trample the world, so he channeled that fate into making himself the world’s common enemy—but he failed tragically. |
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BlossomBurst said: If he actually was supposed to be a monster i think you forgot about the world genocide thing |
Nordaviento said: BlossomBurst said: If he actually was supposed to be a monster i think you forgot about the world genocide thing A cold, heartless, ruthless monster who doesn't care about anyone* yeah he's still a monster but I mostly meant how he felt about what he was doing Edit: rereading my comment i referred to him as such. That's what was implied by the context. |
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GoodbyeFriend said: Because its mainstream to hate it. Thats all. There might be the remote possibility that they hate it because, you know, they actually didn't like it. Shocker i know. |
BlossomBurst said: Is it just me or is there more to this? We know why he would have done this—revenge for his parents. Inevitably, he would trample the world, so he channeled that fate into making himself the world’s common enemy—but he failed tragically. Then why did he kill his mom? |
| If you ever feel bored and are questioning the meaning of your existence, read deez blogs. Maybe you will find your answers. |
Pecado_Carnal said: - Eren pulling a Lelouch despite him saying it was a stupid idea in the first arc without any explanation for him changing his mind about it - Ymir loving her abuser - Eren killing his own mother to save Bert when, if he didn't do anything, Dina would have eating Bert, so they would have had a Royal Titan Shifter (Dinna) and a Titan Shifter (Grisha). The rumbling could have being done in chapter 1. If he could change things at will, he's a moron who's plan doesn't make sense. If he couldn't, he's a slave, everything was done by fate/Ymir and therefore the story is pointless. - Eren totally OOC breakdown over Mikasa and not the millions of people he's killing as the conversation with Armin takes place. Let's not forget him lying even in his inner monologues. - Armin thanking Eren for becoming a mass murderer - The parasyte leaving the show because his contract expired. - Mikasa walking back to Paradis despite being an ocean in between the island and the battlefield, not to mention every single piece of technology was destroyed by Eren in a previous chapter. - Annie, Karina, etc not suffering any consequences - Force Ghosts - The Alliance not getting shot in place. In fact Marley should've killed even the Eldians on their side after what they've seen. - The baby being a mistery for no fucking reason. Historia having a child to save his ass, therefore ruining her character. - The war is still going on, but now Paradis doesn't even has Titans to defend itself. It was established that there was Anti-Titan technology, so even having them all wouldn't be a guarentee for survival. - Marley Warriors and their victims being all Moomin-like friends with each other. - Reiner character is reduced to sniffing a letter. - Mikasa being allowed to stay in Paradis - Mikasa being unable to move on from Eren - Eren turning into a Hateful Boyfriend sequel bait or Mikasa being crazy as fuck if we take the 8 extra pages into account. I don't know what option is worse honestly. And that's just taking the original 139 release on itself, without taking into account the million plotholes it creates for the 138 previous chapters or the 8 extra pages. What you said right here is the reason why I rated this show 7/10, without the Marley arc it would be 10/10 for me. But post time-skip arcs are just... nonsense.. I could have rated it lower than 7, but let's count the arcs which were before the timeskip. Overall, yeah, the ending is very bad. |
DonRazvan2K03 said: Pecado_Carnal said: - Eren pulling a Lelouch despite him saying it was a stupid idea in the first arc without any explanation for him changing his mind about it - Ymir loving her abuser - Eren killing his own mother to save Bert when, if he didn't do anything, Dina would have eating Bert, so they would have had a Royal Titan Shifter (Dinna) and a Titan Shifter (Grisha). The rumbling could have being done in chapter 1. If he could change things at will, he's a moron who's plan doesn't make sense. If he couldn't, he's a slave, everything was done by fate/Ymir and therefore the story is pointless. - Eren totally OOC breakdown over Mikasa and not the millions of people he's killing as the conversation with Armin takes place. Let's not forget him lying even in his inner monologues. - Armin thanking Eren for becoming a mass murderer - The parasyte leaving the show because his contract expired. - Mikasa walking back to Paradis despite being an ocean in between the island and the battlefield, not to mention every single piece of technology was destroyed by Eren in a previous chapter. - Annie, Karina, etc not suffering any consequences - Force Ghosts - The Alliance not getting shot in place. In fact Marley should've killed even the Eldians on their side after what they've seen. - The baby being a mistery for no fucking reason. Historia having a child to save his ass, therefore ruining her character. - The war is still going on, but now Paradis doesn't even has Titans to defend itself. It was established that there was Anti-Titan technology, so even having them all wouldn't be a guarentee for survival. - Marley Warriors and their victims being all Moomin-like friends with each other. - Reiner character is reduced to sniffing a letter. - Mikasa being allowed to stay in Paradis - Mikasa being unable to move on from Eren - Eren turning into a Hateful Boyfriend sequel bait or Mikasa being crazy as fuck if we take the 8 extra pages into account. I don't know what option is worse honestly. And that's just taking the original 139 release on itself, without taking into account the million plotholes it creates for the 138 previous chapters or the 8 extra pages. What you said right here is the reason why I rated this show 7/10, without the Marley arc it would be 10/10 for me. But post time-skip arcs are just... nonsense.. I could have rated it lower than 7, but let's count the arcs which were before the timeskip. Overall, yeah, the ending is very bad. Whaaaa I loved the marley arc, it was so interesting to see the other perspective. The post-Rumbling subarc was 7/10 at best though I agree |
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BlossomBurst said: I just finished, and though I didn't love the final battle and the weird way no one hated Eren nor care for the little glowing spine worm, but like, what was so bad about it? It worked and was alright, even if it wasn't mindblowing or unexpected. For one, I really liked how Eren failed in the end to end all war by making himself the one shared enemy. Also I really like how Eren's stoic facade falls apart similarly to what happened after Sasha in the airboat, and how the ending makes it so that they don't need titan solutions to human issues, but human solutions (i.e. diplomacy). Even with the extra 8 pages with Ymir and the future adding even more, why do people hate this? edit: also it's cool how titans and the desire for life are intertwined because eren killing his own mother is stupid, and the "future seen of attack titan" too. Now tell me, if eren can see the future, then there must be "the first" eren who didn't kill his mother. But even so he still has the founder because "first" eren controlled Dina to kill "second" eren's mother. But why he did that if in the end he still got the founder? The future time concept is confusing and killing his own mother to gain hatred is stupid |
| MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA MUDA WRYYYYYYYY |
| Because it’s dumb and ruins all the greatness that came before it. Apparently all that was needed to make the titans disappear was to get a simp to get over a guy to inspire some Stockholm syndrome kid, like wtf. So now you can’t even take the previously intense and powerful arcs with humans vs titans seriously anymore. The theme of whether or not everyone’s sacrifices were worth it was constantly cropping up, and humanity kept fighting on and not giving up largely to honour those fallen comrades, it was all so powerful. But now imagine if everyone who sacrificed themselves found out that it was actually completely pointless, all they actually had to do was talk no jutsu Mikasa and get her to stop simping over Eren. And this is supposed to be a happy ending? |
 柵の向こうには 本当に狼などおらぬのか |
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