15poundfish said: Zefyris said: IF you look at the number of peoples who called the end of Rokka no Yuusha stupid, or not making sense, saying it's back to the start, saying it's an unnecessary plot twist, saying characters' behaviour don't make sense and the like in the episode 12's thread, you'll understand that "spoon feeding" is pretty much necessary. Anime viewers are used to NOT think during anime, and as a result when they aren't spoon feed and don't understand, rather than thinking they immediately deduce that the story is stupid and doesn't make sense, that it's plot hole and the like. RnY's case is especially funny since some peoples are actually complaining of the exact contrary. IE, that they were given too much indices on some stuff and that their intelligence was therefore "insulted". Make up your mind, peoples. :3 I thought people disliked it because it was a bad mystery. the fake was obvious by the second episode. the mystery wasn't about who the fake was. It was about how it was done. The identity of the culprit was the werewolf game part. The author was clever enough to clearly mark the difference by making the MC as the detective find out the mystery but NOT the werewolf, leaving him unable to say it right away after he elucidated the mystery. "bad mystery"? For someone who isn't even able to determine what was the mystery here, that's just too funny. And" obvious" before half the cast appear and that they even start to talk about the fact that there is a fake? Please. That's not possible without being spoiled you know? Some peoples here have been spoiled hard and think it's obvious when they have been spoiled to know the answer. lolz. |
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| I prefer to not be spoon fed since I like to come up with my own theories or points about an anime. But I believe there would be a large majority that prefer spoon fed storytelling since they just want to sit back and relax... |
| Spoonfeeding is the most insulting of all storytelling techniques (though it can't actually be called that) It assumes the viewer is lacking in intelligence or attention span. It is usually an instant dealbreaker for me, depending on severity. Characters talking to themselves to remind the audience about something stupidly simple is especially repulsive. |
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Red_Tuesday said: Spoonfeeding is the most insulting of all storytelling techniques (though it can't actually be called that) It assumes the viewer is lacking in intelligence or attention span. It is usually an instant dealbreaker for me, depending on severity. Characters talking to themselves to remind the audience about something stupidly simple is especially repulsive. you would be surprised at the amount of people who miss stuff that has been thrown at their faces, multipe times. |
| To be honest there is spoonfeeding always in some form when telling a story. A good example of story telling is Dark souls game series, you pick up bits and pieces what's happening around you and form the bigger picture the further you go. Anyways, there's always going to be spoonfeeding, major studios pander casual viewers who turn their brain off and watch episode or two after work/school. It doesn't bother me unless It's some major repeating. |
Red_Tuesday said: Spoonfeeding is the most insulting of all storytelling techniques (though it can't actually be called that) It assumes the viewer is lacking in intelligence or attention span. It is usually an instant dealbreaker for me, depending on severity. Characters talking to themselves to remind the audience about something stupidly simple is especially repulsive. The talking to themselves is like stabbing you in the eyes. It's borderline immoral. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Kuma said: >if show don't tell, "PLOT HOLE!" >If show tell, "UNNECESSARY!" >if show tell too less, "LACK OF BUILDING!" >if show tell too much, "INFO DUMP!" >if show tell too clear, "SPOON FEEDING!" >if show tell too symbolic, "PRETENTIOUS!" just enjoy goddamn thing already pls. as long it's not overdone, i have no problem with it. |
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| Spoon feeding is an absolute cancer of narrative fiction. It has nothing to do with show dont tell. Its all about allowing the viewer to draw conclusions with sufficient amount of data available. Yet market has come to view thinking as a nuisance. Anything that requires the viewer to think is believed to not sell. The constant juvenile-ization of medium turning interesting and complex works into moe fanservice action spectacles has created what I would like to call Instant Gratification Generation - type of people who can't stand build up or mystery and only want explosions. This generation consumes media solely for the "thrill". They feel that unless stuff is exploding, action is going on, etc, then nothing is happening. Build up, character deelopment, philosophical exploration, etc is "filler" and everything has to be explained "here and now" when it is introduced. So any work that actually contains depth or requires thinking(Ex: any non-linear narrative work like Durarara, Baccano, Kekkai Sensen or the latest example Concrete Revolutio) gets deemed as "too confusing". The worst part of spoon-feeding prevalence in anime is that it causes adaptations of various works (ex: FSN) to get "simplified" into light-novel level juvenile action flicks, because "modern audience" won't be able to follow what is going on. And the more mainstream-focused entities like Aniplex, etc, grasp at that audience for "maximum" sales. Even if that means throwing their projects under the buss. Its sad to say but we are living in times when works like Stand Alone Complex would never sell 10k+ copies like they did when they were released. THAT SAID. Spoon feeding =/= Explaining. A proper narrative work REQUIRES logical reasoning. You can't draw your conclusions out of thin air or having to read the source material. Logical coherence and as low as possible suspension of disbelief IS very much important part of any proper narrative, so claiming that something that does not explain itself properly is "showing and not telling" and "avoiding spoon-feeding" is downright idiotic fallacy. Correlation does not equal causation - lack of "spoonfeeding" can make people confused or dislike a work, but the same can be accomplished by it just being a shitty narrative I don't see why all the sheeple are trying to bring in FSN to this discussion, because it is the PERFECT example of catering to low-attention-span spoonfed audience. ITs an example of taking a complex and layered work that requires attention span and turning it into flashy light-novel/shonen action/fanservice spectacle full of explosions, asspulls and generic characters. Using a teenager-targeted chuuni-filled fighting show as an example of "lack of spoonfeeding" is nothing more than ridiculous try to elevate kitsch. Want to see a true example of a work that does not rely on spoonfeeding and results in misconceptions? the masterpiece that is Fate Zero adaptation. Or even Kara no Kyoukai. |
AhenshihaelDec 4, 2015 3:59 AM
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CookingPriest said: Spoon feeding is an absolute cancer of narrative fiction. It has nothing to do with show dont tell. Its all about allowing the viewer to draw conclusions with sufficient amount of data available. Yet market has come to view thinking as a nuisance. Anything that requires the viewer to think is believed to not sell. The constant juvenile-ization of medium turning interesting and complex works into moe fanservice action spectacles has created what I would like to call Instant Gratification Generation - type of people who can't stand build up or mystery and only want explosions. This generation consumes media solely for the "thrill". They feel that unless stuff is exploding, action is going on, etc, then nothing is happening. Build up, character deelopment, philosophical exploration, etc is "filler" and everything has to be explained "here and now" when it is introduced. So any work that actually contains depth or requires thinking(Ex: any non-linear narrative work like Durarara, Baccano, Kekkai Sensen or the latest example Concrete Revolutio) gets deemed as "too confusing". The worst part of spoon-feeding prevalence in anime is that it causes adaptations of various works (ex: FSN) to get "simplified" into light-novel level juvenile action flicks, because "modern audience" won't be able to follow what is going on. And the more mainstream-focused entities like Aniplex, etc, grasp at that audience for "maximum" sales. Even if that means throwing their projects under the buss. Its sad to say but we are living in times when works like Stand Alone Complex would never sell 10k+ copies like they did when they were released. THAT SAID. Spoon feeding =/= Explaining. A proper narrative work REQUIRES logical reasoning. You can't draw your conclusions out of thin air or having to read the source material. Logical coherence and as low as possible suspension of disbelief IS very much important part of any proper narrative, so claiming that something that does not explain itself properly is "showing and not telling" and "avoiding spoon-feeding" is downright idiotic fallacy. Correlation does not equal causation - lack of "spoonfeeding" can make people confused or dislike a work, but the same can be accomplished I don't see why all the sheeple are trying to bring in FSN to this discussion, because it is the PERFECT example of catering to low-attention-span spoonfed audience. ITs an example of taking a complex and layered work that requires attention span and turning it into flashy light-novel/shonen action/fanservice spectacle full of explosions, asspulls and generic characters. Using a teenager-targeted chuuni-filled fighting show as an example of "lack of spoonfeeding" is nothing more than ridiculous try to elevate kitsch. Want to see a true example of a work that does not rely on spoonfeeding and results in misconceptions? the masterpiece that is Fate Zero adaptation. Or even Kara no Kyoukai.  |
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| Spoon feeding can be a bad things. Spoon feeding can be good things. Either way is fine for me. |
| This salad is salty favored |
Kuma said: I agree. There'll always be people that complain.>if show don't tell, "PLOT HOLE!" >If show tell, "UNNECESSARY!" >if show tell too less, "LACK OF BUILDING!" >if show tell too much, "INFO DUMP!" >if show tell too clear, "SPOON FEEDING!" >if show tell too symbolic, "PRETENTIOUS!" just enjoy goddamn thing already pls. as long it's not overdone, i have no problem with it. Of course there should be enough info to keep it interesting. If you let the viewer only speculate and he can speculate in 1000 different directions it will get boring. He could just drop the anime and create an own complete story/plot in his phantasy. So there should be some info at least. Also the pacing is important. Not 20 episodes slice of life 4-6 episodes plot. That will be boring. Most people will drop early. I love the shows that do it right: When I just thinkg "now I want some more background info about character x or about the setting/story - else it starts to get boring and I might drop it" and just that moment they give more info/make it intersting and some progress. Then it is good. Perfect it would be if they did a little bit before I even start thinking it gets boring. It is also possible to rush - giving too much info. This also is bad. I'd say it is okay to explain a lot. It is always better to explain more - as long as the pacing is fine (not all the info in episode 1 or in the last episode - always a little bit more info when needed). And it should not be random stuff or plot twists. Some people say it is boring if it is too predictable. I say: It is good. Feels authenthic, realistic. The more unpredictable it is the more "random" (= which is crap) it feels. But that also depends on the show. If it is some well-made crime/mystery and the killer is someone you could not predict but with some later revealed info in combination with the info you got earlier it still makes sense - then it might be just fine. Better than if you could know the killer already from episode 1. Better than it it was some random killer nobody could know of which does not make sense even if you combine all the info you got. |
TheBrainintheJar said: Red_Tuesday said: Spoonfeeding is the most insulting of all storytelling techniques (though it can't actually be called that) It assumes the viewer is lacking in intelligence or attention span. It is usually an instant dealbreaker for me, depending on severity. Characters talking to themselves to remind the audience about something stupidly simple is especially repulsive. The talking to themselves is like stabbing you in the eyes. It's borderline immoral. Only when someone binge-watches an anime. When people watch it as it comes out, a whole week passes between episodes, and it's alright to remind them of things that happened before. |
| I'm stupid so I need someone to tell me what's going on (sorry serial experiments baen) But it's REALLY annoying when they have to say every little thing that's going on and spoon feed it to u. I like something in the middle |
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| I prefer not because it can get boring if it wasn't handled in a just as necessary way. But sometimes it's needed like if the anime holds a great deal of fantasy: new world, new creatures, unnatural abilities (from the start) ... And sometimes the past is so complicated yet important to know and the characters rarely talk about it and if they did it would be so clear to them so they won't bother explaining. |
flannan said: TheBrainintheJar said: The talking to themselves is like stabbing you in the eyes. It's borderline immoral. Only when someone binge-watches an anime. When people watch it as it comes out, a whole week passes between episodes, and it's alright to remind them of things that happened before. But in the end, people won't watch it weekly but perhaps daily. The creators must remember this. You can't pretend otherwise or else in re-watching, people will be stuck with a lot of repetitive exposition. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| I don't mind it if it's done well. Most of these 'spoon feeding' anime that you talk of tend to be shounens. And there are a lot of good shounen anime out there. |
Rogue22 said: nasu is gay...................or lesbianOneTrueBaita said: I loved Kiritsugu so much in Zero. He's my idol! He's what everyone should become!!! Not like that shitty red hair generic shounen protag "people die when killed" retard in the sequel. High school lol, not even mature. Whatever happened to my boy Gilgamesh and my boy Broskandar? And why is shitty Saber still in this, she got pwned n00b'd so hard by Broskandar man. I think Urobuchi should rewrite Stay Night, he wrote that like in 2004 right? He should make a remake with Tite Kubo. Nah bruh, Saber was awesome in zero ,F/sn turned her into a useless servant that is eating all The time ,is actually happy ,and gets captured .Unlike in zero were she actually kicked some ass and was a chivarlous Knight .All of this shows how superior Urobutcher is . |
TheBrainintheJar said: .ut episodes come out weekly, which is what I think he's referring. Remember, not everyone streams finished shows from their PC.flannan said: Only when someone binge-watches an anime. When people watch it as it comes out, a whole week passes between episodes, and it's alright to remind them of things that happened before. But in the end, people won't watch it weekly but perhaps daily. The creators must remember this. You can't pretend otherwise or else in re-watching, people will be stuck with a lot of repetitive exposition. |
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| Spoon-feeding is fine in moderation and depending on the type of anime. I like finding stuff out/figuring stuff out on my own, but not all the time... especially not for the "casual" type of anime. For those I like to shut down my brain and just not think while I enjoy the show. |
 . . . . . ✘ . . . . .DO NOT touch my rice. . . . . . I'm Asian. . . . . . |
| Remember that narrator from Chimera Ant? That's really bad spoon feeding |
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| depends on the topic being presented. Exposition in on itself is NOT bad. There are thousands of things you just CAN'T "show" and sometimes exposition is a form of character development. A character being knowledgeable in lore is helpful to showcase and characterize the character as smart and wise, or as aware of his/her surroundings. Not to mention character should be allowed to have thoughts or to say or think in his mind about the storyline at hand. IT both provides a viewpoint for the viewer AND develops a character showcasing his worldview. Both showing and telling needs to be used in balance. If you just show and dont tell - well for one, most of anime writers and directors are completely incapable of doing it right and there are things you can't just "show". Exposition is very much a necessity both in world building and character building. So if you want a viewer to delve into a character's inside, you can't just portray him from outside point of view - if you take more "cinematic" approach in a character focused work, its no longer character introspection - its no longer about the character himself/herslef, its just showing what others think about the character or even less. Leaving EVERYTHING up in the air is not good. Over-explaining every single thing is not good. But at least the main major themes of the work should be made very clear - the show's message should be made clear. If the viewer takes away wrong message than the author intended, then the narrative utterly failed. Mind you "Show don't tell" should not be taken literally - a work can be wordy containing a lot of dialogue, character thoughts, monologues, philosophical conversations, exposition - but as long as the actual content is not anvilicious that would still fit "show don't tell". A lot of people mistakenly think that "show don't tell" is a blanket statement that means there should be no monologues or talking or discussions within the narrative. It does not mean erasing all character thought and conversation capabilities. It just means presenting the narrative in a way that is not anvilicious. Because that is what is correctly defined as spoonfeeding. And THAT is bad. Spoonfeeding does not "explain". It feeds you statements instead of presenting them. |
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merryfistmas said: TheBrainintheJar said: .ut episodes come out weekly, which is what I think he's referring. Remember, not everyone streams finished shows from their PC.But in the end, people won't watch it weekly but perhaps daily. The creators must remember this. You can't pretend otherwise or else in re-watching, people will be stuck with a lot of repetitive exposition. I know, but every anime exists more times as a full series than an airing one. So judging it based on a status that doesn't last is silly. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| The most annoying form of spoonfeeding is when the show has an arrow pointing to one of the characters with their emotion or something labelled. Or something else like "they didn't get the joke". It's one of my biggest peeves in slice of life anime. |
| They're everywhere in every LN adaptations, that's why they annoy me to death. LOTGH is Info-dumping done right because the way the narrator is telling is to know more what's going on the story. |
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Semen-Demon said: LOTGH is Info-dumping done right because the way the narrator is telling is to know more what's going on the story. To be exact, its more of a narrative choice there. LOTGH is styled as a war documentary, basically. |
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