nekovision said: Anyway. Anime company need to go back to this kind of badass-ness. [img]http://cdn.myanimelist.net/images/characters/15/64621.jpg[img] That won't even fit in a lot of genre's. By the way, its not the anime companies that design the characters most of time(unless its anime original). Its the author of the original source who does. Sure, they might change a few things, but they won't do a complete overhaul of how the character looks(most of the time, anyway). |
rederoinJan 17, 2013 4:33 PM
| the art style in general has definitely changed since then, Modern Characters have softer rounder faces since the 90's/80s. the thing that turns me off retro anime is the colour having that "washed out" look. |
| I would say that the quality of anime today is much better than back then tbh |
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| by "quality" do u mean style cuz thats completely opinionated. compared to the quality of something like dragonball we have definitly come a long way |
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nekovision said: 9988 said: Also the newer style fans say there so much "cherry picking" but aren't you dong the same? I could as well pick some good examples like GITS, Monster, Dennou Coil, Shugurui, xxxholic, Gurren Lagann, Macross Frontier, Gankutsuou and support extraordinarily well that the generic characters design are not true. Unfortunately most of the examples you mentioned (maybe with the exception of GITS, Monster) still look rather generic to me. Even Macross Frontier has turned into a annoying "Moe" show with cute girls where nothing like original SDF Macross, and male lead look like a "woman" and I absolutely can't stand :( Anyway. Anime company need to go back to this kind of badass-ness.  Cannot say I dont agree with you. There is a reason why being the big macross fan I am, I have Macross 7 and Nekki basara in my fav anime/avatar, so yea, Macross F gave in to the moe trends, I was not happy wirh Ranka Lee and with it, but the moe elements were not as intrusive and the series as a whole was excellent. Art style alone I prefer it in this order Macross 7 > Macross > Macross Zero > Macross F. Still macross F art style was distinctive enough for me considering the current state of things (imo) -and the series I mentioned- considering highly stylized art style is over, a trait of the 80s to specifically address DBZ. In case of Gurren lagann, well, modern looking, but artistically was excellent, except for the controversial ep that changed the art style, the whole things is a big homenage to the 80s and -again- the highly stylized art from the 80s. Clamp art style is very distinctive as well if you ask me. My point was not give the best examples of unique non generic art style but that on the "cherry picking" statements, that any side can easily cherry pick individual series to prove the point, but I have yet to find anyone that pick up the challenge of actually showing us the generic designs of older series that a couple mentioned here. I would like to see the lookalike of Goku, Harlock, Basara, vegeta, Luffy, Minami asakura (no star sstem does not count), Ta-cchan, Oscar, etc, because if I or anyone else wanted we can easily show you the look alikes and similar vibes of characters like kyon, oreki, haru (tonari no kaibutsu - yet a loved it), Hoshima (aikatsu), clannad girs, sao girls - asuna, yui, kazuto (already done here), etc. Which is the main point us that prefer older style put emphasizes on, not vibrant colors or more "beautiful" designs (vs "ugly of older") etc, for us older loved surey go even befond superficialities, probably as some mentioned, characters´ strong personalities that make them stand out. |
9988Jan 17, 2013 6:02 PM
9988 said: Older anime is indeed more rough and less polished, frames per second were less, palettes were not as vibrant and rich but they all -most at least- had very distinctive qualities, plus anime was hand drawn, doing that way it was impossible to have much similarities in designs. Today as anime is computerized, artists keep on using the same models with some little differences here and there, eye color, hair color, etc, so even when the can look different, for some yes the look the same. Skip to 4:18. I really hope people stop using the "old anime looks better because it was hand drawn" because it still is. Back then people would draw on paper then trace it onto cels, today they scan the drawings then trace and color with a program. Anime still uses traditional animation, where the drawing (or parts of it) are drawn and redrawn by hand. It's silly to use the term frames per second because anime has always been shot at 24 fps. Most of the anime today are as jerky as ever because they are still mostly done on 2s,3s or 4s, they just have more actual movement. Smoothness isn't all there is to good animation. Stuff like SAO and Working! or Tamako Market and K-On! looking similar can be attributed to the shows having the same character designer. You even have stuff like Sora no Woto whose character designer is a fan of K-On's character designer and Toriko which seems to be influenced by older battle shounen titles. The point here is that it mostly has to do with trends and how these artists influence each other rather than the technology used, which hasn't changed much really. |
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Trisection said: Stuff like SAO and Working! or Tamako Market and K-On! looking similar can be attributed to the shows having the same character designer. You even have stuff like Sora no Woto whose character designer is a fan of K-On's character designer and Toriko which seems to be influenced by older battle shounen titles. The point here is that it mostly has to do with trends and how these artists influence each other rather than the technology used, which hasn't changed much really. Is not as easy and superficial as that, we simply dont understand each other, we can always take your words as absolute truth, then we can easily tell you for us (old anime lovers) that then many of today series have the same designer. DO you get what we come at? We can take your words and then say all designer have the same styel, distinctive styles of authors is over, you can argue designers simply adapt to the current styles and hence look similar, but I can easily tell you then why in the past in any era authors and designers have extremely distinctive art style even when in each era there were specific trends like there are today? Which is the main point us that prefer older style put emphasizes on, not vibrant colors or more "beautiful" designs (vs "ugly of older") etc, for us older anime lovers surely go even beyond superficialities, probably as some mentioned, characters´ strong personalities that make them stand out. Probably this explain a little more, not only charactres look the same in our correct or incorrect perspective but act and fell the same, bland a devoid of "personality". Which of course dont mean its the same for all anime, but this is the case again in my correct or incorrect perspective in the anime trends that dominate todays anime market and production. BTW anime is no longer hand drawn and does not bother me spoeciffically, what I dont like its the technology and computerization is used to mass produce generic looking visuals, reduce costs and work, which ultimately for me is what generates bland characterless. I can think of many examples of fantastic use of new techonoly and computer drawn and created characters, as well as correct modernization of old disticntive art styles = Jojo | Cross Game | Lupin 2012 | GITS 1995 --> GITS SAC | EVA 90s --> Rebuild of EVA | to name a few. |
9988Jan 17, 2013 6:23 PM
| I personally don't like 'classic animation' probably because I wasn't around then but still. I think it's unfair to say all anime is based on moe, because I've seen messed up stuff for example: |
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MEanimaniac1 said: I personally don't like 'classic animation' probably because I wasn't around then but still. I think it's unfair to say all anime is based on moe, because I've seen messed up stuff for example: .... I took you seriously til the second spoiler image |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| Well, it’s like saying that Claude Monet is better than Picasso. I’ve only read some posts but as it has been said it’s very subjective. It all depends on your taste. In fact, those old images you posted seem too heavy for my taste. “Conan, the future boy” is also old and it’s very simple too. It doesn’t have the level of detail of those old pictures. |
9988 said: Art style alone I prefer it in this order Macross 7 > Macross > Macross Zero > Macross F I really love the original art style of Macross from the 80s and 90s. I think both SDF Macross and Macross 7 were designed by Haruhiko Mikimoto. Who was consider a lengendary designer at that time. He also did the design for Megazone 23 which I notice OP had post a picture of Eve. Megazone 23 was a truely epic sci-fi anime and one of my friend owns a DVD copy. Hell. this Mikimoto guy sure know how to draw detail and beautiful characters.  Another similar art style in term of such detail is City Hunter by Hojo Tsukasa  Yes. I'm probably the only younger anime fan who still love old anime. I think more people should appreciate some of the great old classics instead of calling them "ugly". Anyway, I prefer old time of anime where guys look "manly" and girls look like beautiful women. And I also notice OP was biased by cherry picking "ovas" and "movies" from the 90s/80s. Yes, a lot of ovas made in the "cel-era" really have gorgeous artworks, but some tv series were another story. I'll use the original Gundam as an example. That serie is really full of bad quality episode and off model-ness.  Oh well... Keep in mind its a "TV" series though. And I'm not totally biased toward old times. Each era has its own good I guess. |
nekovisionJan 17, 2013 7:06 PM
jkun said: So you're saying that Deen, Pierrot and Gonzo have the same animation quality as KyoAni?SquadmemberRitsu said: srsly guise? wat da fuk happnd? the difference between now and then is that now 90% of new anime looks like clannad so much beta in this thread its unbelievable |
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SquadmemberRitsu said: jkun said: So you're saying that Deen, Pierrot and Gonzo have the same animation quality as KyoAni?SquadmemberRitsu said: srsly guise? wat da fuk happnd? the difference between now and then is that now 90% of new anime looks like clannad so much beta in this thread its unbelievable That's basically what he said. Like I said before, IF ONLY! 90% of anime actually havee the same animation and art quality as KyoAni... |
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| If you are talking about the animation then it actually improved but if it's the art style it depends on the person. |
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SquadmemberRitsu said: srsly guise? wat da fuk happnd? I NO RITEt? |
MitsukiHimeka said: If you are talking about the animation then it actually improved but if it's the art style it depends on the person. Animation smoothness of old anime is not a problem for me since I found out most of the ovas and movies made in the past have higher frame-rates and better movements than both of the old and new TV series and definitely on par with the high budget modern movies like Paprika and Girl Leap through time. Though some old TV shows have good artworks but the animation is really choppy. As for whether modern anime was still hand drawn debate. I'm no animation expert, so I can't make any correct analyses on them. But one thing can be sure for certain that there's less hand-work and more computer involved than before. By the way, I do have some modern shows I prefer. The list of non-generic series I've watched so far: - Mobirito Guardian of Spirit - Initial D - GITS tv sereis - One Piece - Paprika - Tatami Galaxy - Samurai Champloo - Shigurui Also: 9988 said: What anime on the top right with the girl her face cover in bloods? I really like the realistic art style. Is it from 80s/90s or modern? |
nekovisionJan 19, 2013 4:40 AM
| It's from Perfect Blue, 1998. I haven't actually seen it, but I have seen Millennium Actress and Paprika by the same director, and they are both excellent. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
nekovision said: MitsukiHimeka said: If you are talking about the animation then it actually improved but if it's the art style it depends on the person. Animation smoothness of old anime is not a problem for me since I found out most of the ovas and movies made in the past have higher frame-rates and better movements than both of the old and new TV series and definitely on par with the high budget modern movies like Parika and Girl Leap through time. Though some old TV shows have good artworks but the animation is really choppy. As for whether modern anime was still hand drawn debate. I'm no animation expert, so I can't make any correct analyses on them. But one thing can be sure for certain that there's less hand-work and more computer involved than before. By the why, I do have some modern shows I prefer. The list of non-generic series I've watched so far: - Mobirito Guardian of Spirit - Initial D - GITS tv sereis - One Piece - Parika - Tatami Galaxy - Samurai Champoo - Shigurui Also: 9988 said: What anime on the top right with the girl her face cover in bloods? I really like the realistic art style. Is it from 80s/90s or modern? out of of the shows you listed only around half of them are pst 2005 thus would be called by most round here old and hell the one ppice manga is 14 years old o that would = that iits old even tough its still ongoing |
| "If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine" When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one For the Union makes us strong |
rederoin said: Animation has improved, this can't be denied. And animation will continue to improve. That just how it works. Animation has nothing to do with artstyle. Artstyle(what this thread is about), is subjective. No matter how you put it, your opinion is not better than somebody else's if its regarding arstyle. Also relevant. jal90 said: What is the point on talking about the overall quality of the shows mentioned by rederoin? Isn't it made clear that it is cherry picking? Therefore, using only the still images that are shown. Who cares if Sailor Moon has actually better animation or if Fate/Zero overuses CGI. What I see in the images is: 1) a prevalence of moe tropes in the "back then" part with 2) lighter colour palette and 3) simpler and sketchier drawing. The point of that post was to show the absurdity of cherry picking anyway, which has been done several times in this thread including the OP. Exactly my point. It was more of a cherry picking by picking 'girly' looking shows from the old days, and the 'mananime' shows(although Jojo would be a better choice, but I didn't make that picture) that have recently aired. on the other hand there isalot of people who bemoan over use of cgi in live action but when i meantiod it in anime i get moaned at aroued here double stadered much |
| "If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine" When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one For the Union makes us strong |
| my dick still gets hard from both old and new so no problem with either style here |
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RLinksoul said: And now, a round of applause for the superior budget management skills of studios from the past.SquadmemberRitsu said: srsly guise? wat da fuk happnd? I NO RITEt? |
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9988 said: BTW anime is no longer hand drawn and does not bother me spoeciffically, what I dont like its the technology and computerization is used to mass produce generic looking visuals, reduce costs and work, which ultimately for me is what generates bland characterless. I can think of many examples of fantastic use of new techonoly and computer drawn and created characters, as well as correct modernization of old disticntive art styles = Jojo | Cross Game | Lupin 2012 | GITS 1995 --> GITS SAC | EVA 90s --> Rebuild of EVA | to name a few. Did you watch the video I linked? Anime is animated by hand on paper. This is the industry standard and it won't change anytime soon. |
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| uhh no its gotten better in terms of how it looks at least |
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| Declined significantly compared to old classics? Hardly... This was posted by MagicFlier from another MAL thread. |
| That video does not help your case at all, imo. There were some nice looking ones, though. A Letter To Momo is far and away the best looking anime I watched this year. |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
| I beg to differ. At least this shows animation and not stills. This is for the year 2012 alone. The topic is the supposed decline of of the art quality compared to old classics. My answer is that it has not declined - on the contrary, it has improved; vastly improved. |
uneksia said: I really like old animation, it was so quality  But srsly. I like both arts. and in my opinion it's not that the quality has declined, is more like that's the kind of art that people nowadays like. And I personally think that not all modern art looks like the one in that picture. it has variety too. seven fingers with one sticking out of the middle of her palm. |
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| Nope for me, but it is pretty subjective. It's art after all |
| If you look at it objectively (if that is even possible), the quality obviously has improved. There are so many things possible now that would have looked really shitty 20 years ago but honestly, i still prefer the animation in the classics, at least regarding the characters. Most of the characters are pretty much designed to look cute or handsome or even moe but it does not really appeal to me. |
DateYutaka said: the art is to moe to day thus is got worse So "moe" means "evil" in Japanese. Right? |
| I actually like both. |
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rederoin said: jal90 said: DateYutaka said: the art is to moe to day thus is got worse So "moe" means "evil" in Japanese. Right? Obviously Just look at how bad the art is in every single of those so called 'moe'(although I have no idea what exactly people mean by that) anime. wow four out of over 200 go 2005 to 2013 and find anime that people use to judge this and find over 1000[ from the around 1700 relses ] that are not moe then i will let it go but if you find over 100 anime that fall in to moe that will prove me right |
DateYutakaJan 18, 2013 9:44 AM
| "If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine" When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one For the Union makes us strong |
DateYutaka said: rederoin said: jal90 said: DateYutaka said: the art is to moe to day thus is got worse So "moe" means "evil" in Japanese. Right? Obviously Just look at how bad the art is in every single of those so called 'moe'(although I have no idea what exactly people mean by that) anime. wow four out of over 200 Doesn't change the fact not all art is bad in whatever you mean with 'moe' anime. Those where just examples, i'm not going to waste my time looking up every single series with above-average art just to please you. |
rederoin said: DateYutaka said: rederoin said: jal90 said: DateYutaka said: the art is to moe to day thus is got worse So "moe" means "evil" in Japanese. Right? Obviously Just look at how bad the art is in every single of those so called 'moe'(although I have no idea what exactly people mean by that) anime. wow four out of over 200 Doesn't change the fact not all art is bad in whatever you mean with 'moe' anime. Those where just examples, i'm not going to waste my time looking up every single series with above-average art just to please you. thats is just cherry picking then simple |
| "If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine" When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one For the Union makes us strong |
DateYutaka said: rederoin said: DateYutaka said: rederoin said: jal90 said: DateYutaka said: the art is to moe to day thus is got worse So "moe" means "evil" in Japanese. Right? Obviously Just look at how bad the art is in every single of those so called 'moe'(although I have no idea what exactly people mean by that) anime. wow four out of over 200 Doesn't change the fact not all art is bad in whatever you mean with 'moe' anime. Those where just examples, i'm not going to waste my time looking up every single series with above-average art just to please you. thats is just cherry picking then simple No, they are proving the statement that all art is 'moe' anime is bad wrong. Its impossible to argue with you, isn't it? You're the one making the claim, you should proof of all if its bad, I'm not required to find proof to defend it untill you proof that all of it is bad or below average. |
| Well, as an example, I think the artstyles from Top Wo Nerae! and shows from Rumiko Takahashi like Ranma ½ is absolutely gorgeous, and I like it much more than most of todays overly shiny, and colorful art. I don't really disapprove of the new art, as long as it's not done too poorly, as a lot of them have been. Old school has more charm and personality, in my oppinion. In both new age and old age, there are both good and bad art qualities. |
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Not_Biased said: rederoin said: No, they are proving the statement that all art is 'moe' anime is bad wrong. Its impossible to argue with you, isn't it? You're the one making the claim, you should proof of all if its bad, I'm not required to find proof to defend it untill you proof that all of it is bad or below average. Argumentum ad ignorantiam - you claim that a premise is false because it has not been proven true . If you make a statement, you have to proof it. I'm saying he can't claim all modern anime art in 'moe'(whatever that means) anime is bad because he has no proof. Oh, and its bad in your opinion. You really need to learn what an opinion is. |
rederoinJan 18, 2013 11:30 AM
| I don't know how much does it work at proving any point in this thread but I just need an excuse to show this image: |
jal90Jan 18, 2013 11:39 AM
jal90 said: I really liked that movie, they totally changed the artstyle and mood from their normal adventures.I don't know how much does it work at proving any point in this thread but I just need an excuse to show this image: |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
IntroverTurtle said: jal90 said: I really liked that movie, they totally changed the artstyle and mood from their normal adventures.I don't know how much does it work at proving any point in this thread but I just need an excuse to show this image: Agreed. It was a very pleasant surprise and I found it very rewarding as it clearly didn't mean to be a canon product but a personal reinterpretation on the series, unlike the other movies. And its visual imagery is incredibly mesmerizing. |
jal90 said: Yeah I agree with that, the other movies had a similar formula and feel to them, this was totally different, but worked well. The art was great, the flower and the goldfish were cool.IntroverTurtle said: jal90 said: I really liked that movie, they totally changed the artstyle and mood from their normal adventures.I don't know how much does it work at proving any point in this thread but I just need an excuse to show this image: Agreed. It was a very pleasant surprise and I found it very rewarding as it clearly didn't mean to be a canon product but a personal reinterpretation on the series, unlike the other movies. And its visual imagery is incredibly mesmerizing. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
jal90 said: I don't know how much does it work at proving any point in this thread but I just need an excuse to show this image: One Piece movie 6? |
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