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May 14, 2013 10:42 AM

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Jan 2010
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Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
bippo said:
This show is the anime of the season.

I would agree, so far at least. SnK is good, but as of yet hasn't found an identity. Hataraku is excellent, but has a bit easier of a time because it's almost pure comedy (thus far). I'd have to watch more of this season's stuff (and more episodes of everything) to make a definitive statement, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Gargantia is top-dog right now in terms of story/characters/directing/writing.


It really isn't

For me it really good and my fav anime for 2013 spring.

May 14, 2013 10:45 AM

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Apr 2008
11325
AoiMizu said:
Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
bippo said:
This show is the anime of the season.

I would agree, so far at least. SnK is good, but as of yet hasn't found an identity. Hataraku is excellent, but has a bit easier of a time because it's almost pure comedy (thus far). I'd have to watch more of this season's stuff (and more episodes of everything) to make a definitive statement, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Gargantia is top-dog right now in terms of story/characters/directing/writing.


It really isn't

For me it really good and my fav anime for 2013 spring.


Keyword being, "for you." And that's perfectly reasonable.
May 14, 2013 11:13 AM

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Jan 2010
468
Darklight0303 said:
AoiMizu said:
Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
bippo said:
This show is the anime of the season.

I would agree, so far at least. SnK is good, but as of yet hasn't found an identity. Hataraku is excellent, but has a bit easier of a time because it's almost pure comedy (thus far). I'd have to watch more of this season's stuff (and more episodes of everything) to make a definitive statement, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Gargantia is top-dog right now in terms of story/characters/directing/writing.


It really isn't

For me it really good and my fav anime for 2013 spring.


Keyword being, "for you." And that's perfectly reasonable.

Then what is generally acceptable for top anime 2013 spring that you think of?

May 14, 2013 11:30 AM

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Apr 2008
11325
AoiMizu said:
Darklight0303 said:
AoiMizu said:
Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
bippo said:
This show is the anime of the season.

I would agree, so far at least. SnK is good, but as of yet hasn't found an identity. Hataraku is excellent, but has a bit easier of a time because it's almost pure comedy (thus far). I'd have to watch more of this season's stuff (and more episodes of everything) to make a definitive statement, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Gargantia is top-dog right now in terms of story/characters/directing/writing.


It really isn't

For me it really good and my fav anime for 2013 spring.


Keyword being, "for you." And that's perfectly reasonable.

Then what is generally acceptable for top anime 2013 spring that you think of?


A balance between all the components of the series. Action comedy drama everything. This balance existed to a degree in SnG until the 5th episode. Then it went to hell. It's recovering though at the end of this episode so it may yet recover if it doesn't do another all out fanservice only episode again.
May 14, 2013 11:43 AM

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Nov 2011
457
Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
bippo said:
This show is the anime of the season.

I would agree, so far at least. SnK is good, but as of yet hasn't found an identity. Hataraku is excellent, but has a bit easier of a time because it's almost pure comedy (thus far). I'd have to watch more of this season's stuff (and more episodes of everything) to make a definitive statement, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Gargantia is top-dog right now in terms of story/characters/directing/writing.


It really isn't

It is.
(what a meaningful post!)

It's one of those anime that I would recommend to non-anime-watchers and I certainly will be recommending it unless they somehow manage to mess up the ending.

GET DROPBOX HERE!
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May 14, 2013 12:30 PM
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Feb 2013
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Orulyon said:

Actually it does not bother me anymore because well, fanservice is common in 90% of the anime and they are teenagers, and nowadays teenage sex is common. not saying that I agree
What bothers me the most is when there isn't gender equality, aka, fanservice for boys and no fanservice for girls,
OR, loli/shota fanservice which I hate, because those are not teenagers, those are really "kids" physically and psychologically. Objectification of children makes me shiver.


Well, ok... I think you have a point there. As far as fanservice goes, it is distributed a bit unequally, and mostly caters to the male audience. I agree. But...well, what can you do about it? I guess it's down to the targeted audience.

One still has yaoi...


You have a point. Let me add that in ancient Rome and Greece it was common to marry not just 14 year old girls, but also allowed by society for a man to have also a 14 year old boy as lover. Also let's not forget that everyone died young and that's why they had to reproduce early. Most of them died in war or disease, so many didnt even reached 40 years old.
I strongly believe that regardless of the body being developed "outside", a fourteen year old does not have maturity enough for sex...but this is a controversial matter that has infinite sides, so not discussing it here.
AnimageNeby...Wait...yaoi still? Where? Didn't see it! Damn it


Indeed. I always find it a pity there is so little comparative history or some effort into the realm of anthropology is done in schools anymore. I think this would greatly contribute to open-mindedness, and at least the realisation that our culture and norms are not absolute. Many people debating issues - especially of the moral kind - are painfully oblivious of how other cultures regard(ed) those same issues. It's a sort of societal arrogance (out of ignorance - which is often coupled, in fact), I think.

Now, as far as being too immature to have sex... I would rather say it's the potential consequences that one might deem teenagers too immature for. For instance; a marriage or having babies. This for the reason that such things engender a strong knowledge and realisation of how those things will affect your further future life, which isn't always, indeed, foreseeable or simply 'there' with most teenagers.

But as for the sex on itself - presuming it's done willingly and safely - what consequences has it, really? (I'm not talking about societal consequences here, since that's exactly the issue) Sex, viewed purely on itself, is a very pleasant physical activity, with no inherent adverse consequences that will affect your legal status or your future life in ways that you can't oversee. If it was, I think no-one would ever go to the hookers or have 'free' sex or one-night stands. I don't think that if one actively and willingly engage in sexual activity where both parties feel comfortable, there are objectively spoken any negative effects in the short or long run, at least, not inherently. Sex is just sex: it's fun and pleasant.

However, let's say for arguments' sake we would take your stance that 14y olds are just too immature to have sex - not on itself, but maybe due to the potential consequences I talked about, like getting pregnant without knowing that this is a risk (already unlikely, in Europe, but heck, it still happens)

Then still, there are some glaring contradictions in the stance of how Western societies deal with sexuality (certainly when coupled with youth). For instance, in my country, a judge concluded that two minors of 14y old, who had voluntary sex with eachother, were doing nothing wrong, it was normal and it was allowed.

Well, viewed from the stance that teenagers are too immature to engage in sex, this does not make any sense. With two minors, you actually have double the ignorance and immaturity (at least, potentially). It's difficult to logically argument that a 14y old can not engage in sexual activity with a 20 y old, because he's too immature to have sex, while at the same time, he's apparently mature enough to do it with a 14y old?? Clearly, something does not add up, here.

In fact, looking at it rationally, one could say it's actually better if she/he did it with a 20y old, because as far as things like unwanted pregnancy goes, the 20y old will have a better grasp and be more mature, so chances will be *less* likely that adverse unwanted consequences will happen. So it would make more sense to forbid teenagers having sex with eachother, than if they do it with an older person - at least from the stance of 'immaturity' being the issue. Yet, we nowhere see this reflected in Western societies, so I doubt the immaturity of teenagers is really the issue.

Ofcourse, not everywhere. In the US, two 14y olds - boys, I believe -were BOTH sentenced for CP because they had filmed THEMSELVES while having consensual sex. In the US that means either youth-prison or 'rehabilitation' until they are 18, and than they will carry around the label of sex-offender for the rest of their lives, with all the consequences for a future job and such. Probably was in a redneck-state, but regardless, I can't express my consternation of the stupidity and illogic of that. CP-laws were meant to protect youth, not imprison them. Then I prefer the conclusion of that judge in my country, indeed, even though it's not coherent with other judgements, then.

Anyway, claiming they are too immature to have sex will not stop teenagers from having sex, so I think societal rules, laws and mores should reflect this better. Also, if (im)maturity is really the issue, than one should actually look at the maturity of the parties involved, instead of just putting an arbitrary, absolute age on it, like 18. I mean; one has 16y olds who are more mature than 18y olds...so how comes the latter may have sex and marry, while the former can't, even though they are more mature? There is a legal and normative expectancy that at 18 y, one suddenly becomes an adult, and one is mature enough. We all know this does not reflect reality. You have those that are more mature at below 18, and those that are still very immature even above 20. Imho, it would also be better if society actually made note of that, and adapted itself accordingly.


As for loli/shota; while not my preferred genre (just as shoujo slice-of-life, etc.) I don't have any insurmountable problems with the existence of it neither, since it's anime/manga. Contrary to some, I can make a clear distinction between a visual artform depicting things that are offensive, but are, ultimately, only imaginary drawings with non-existent persons, and the actual thing. So I don't become emotionally about it, or condemn it on itself. For each his/her own, I guess, and if you start forbidding that, one has to forbid classic literature like the Sade as well, and old-greek statues or roman images on vases, etc.

And as for the yaoi: I was talking in general; that you (girls) always have that sort of series for your fanservice. ;-) (There IS no yaoi in Gargantia, as far as I see it, unless you very liberally take the trannies as shounen ai). lol.
AnimageNebyMay 14, 2013 1:13 PM
May 14, 2013 12:53 PM

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Mar 2012
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OfficialGuts said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
bippo said:
This show is the anime of the season.

I would agree, so far at least. SnK is good, but as of yet hasn't found an identity. Hataraku is excellent, but has a bit easier of a time because it's almost pure comedy (thus far). I'd have to watch more of this season's stuff (and more episodes of everything) to make a definitive statement, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Gargantia is top-dog right now in terms of story/characters/directing/writing.
you're comparing a 1cour with a 2cour.

Yes, I suppose I am. Just as everyone who rates anything on this site compares it to all other things on the site. That's the reason you have the 300+ episode shounen shows being compared to 13 episode anime like Baccanno. Because at the end of the day, they are different, but similar enough to be compared. One can say definitively (for ones self) that some anime are better than others, some are worse. At this point, I would say that SnK and SnG (both of which have 6 episodes out) are comparable to a certain degree, and that SnG has surpassed SnK in those ways. Perhaps that will change as the time goes on, perhaps not.
Let's go bowling.
May 14, 2013 1:02 PM
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Feb 2013
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Darklight0303 said:
AoiMizu said:
Darklight0303 said:
AoiMizu said:
Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
bippo said:
This show is the anime of the season.

I would agree, so far at least. SnK is good, but as of yet hasn't found an identity. Hataraku is excellent, but has a bit easier of a time because it's almost pure comedy (thus far). I'd have to watch more of this season's stuff (and more episodes of everything) to make a definitive statement, but I feel pretty comfortable saying that Gargantia is top-dog right now in terms of story/characters/directing/writing.


It really isn't

For me it really good and my fav anime for 2013 spring.




Keyword being, "for you." And that's perfectly reasonable.

Then what is generally acceptable for top anime 2013 spring that you think of?


A balance between all the components of the series. Action comedy drama everything. This balance existed to a degree in SnG until the 5th episode. Then it went to hell. It's recovering though at the end of this episode so it may yet recover if it doesn't do another all out fanservice only episode again.


I find myself in agreement with you as far as the given reasons why one would deem a series good. That said, I have a feeling I appreciate garagntia a bit more, still: it's actually quite up in my list for one of the best series of this season.

It's true, there were weak moments, like the glaring contradiction of 'do not kill, Ledo' vs 'we're killing off pirates while shelling them' in ep3, and even more annoyingly, the blatant fanservice and cheap tranny-humour-trope in ep5, but the 4th and this episode was reasobnably good, and the first 3 were good to great, so all in all...it still is pretty worthwhile, and it still has potential.

Like you, I think what is important in a series is a balanced mixture of all things; a bit of shoujo, a bit of shounen, a bit of seinen...yes, even a bit of ecchi or fanservice is possible...but all done subtle, then, without degrading the believability of the story or unbalancing the mix of different genres. As I said earlier 'selling more DVD's' is not a valid argument or factor for determining the quality of a series, so I couldn't care less if fanservice is introduced to that goal - at least, in an evaluation of the anime itself. No, what matters is quality, and that depends on the story, plot, characterisation, background, world-building, consistency, originality, etc. NOT on whether or not the fanservice made some extra bucks in DVD sales.
May 14, 2013 3:27 PM

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May 2012
1080
Finally hinting at some romance! Looking forward to this. =3=
May 14, 2013 4:47 PM
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Oct 2010
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People are probably misunderstanding Gargantia if they are waiting for action, gore and depressive themes, maybe this is the refreshing anime that "Gen Urobochi" wanted to do. He is a good writer and probably can make other stuff besides what he usually does. I know that he is not the "main writer" but he is the "script supervirsor" and that means a lot. He probably have enough power to guide the script. In fact, im not even specting a depressing ending. Please Urobochi-san, surprise me. Dont do your usual stuff. Yeah, Saya, Fate, Phantom, Madoka and your other works are awesome but you really can do something different.
May 14, 2013 6:45 PM

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AnimageNeby said:

The thought is appealing to think that, for sure. But somehow, I find this mindset too... self-serving. In essence, it doesn't really differ from other cultures in other times, who thought of themselves *they* were far further evolved, also - even especially - morally so, compared to all the 'other' barbarian cultures out there.

I don't subscribe to a philosophy of relative morality and therefore I don't happen to have these same worries that you do. I am perfectly secure in my belief that my culture is better, more advanced, and morally superior to those cultures of the past. Empirical data about the rising standard of living, the near elimination of true poverty, and even further: the free choice of people to maintain said society; all data supports my conclusion that my society is, in fact, better by any measurable standard.
Let's go bowling.
May 14, 2013 6:56 PM

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StopDropAndBowl said:
AnimageNeby said:

The thought is appealing to think that, for sure. But somehow, I find this mindset too... self-serving. In essence, it doesn't really differ from other cultures in other times, who thought of themselves *they* were far further evolved, also - even especially - morally so, compared to all the 'other' barbarian cultures out there.

I don't subscribe to a philosophy of relative morality and therefore I don't happen to have these same worries that you do. I am perfectly secure in my belief that my culture is better, more advanced, and morally superior to those cultures of the past. Empirical data about the rising standard of living, the near elimination of true poverty, and even further: the free choice of people to maintain said society; all data supports my conclusion that my society is, in fact, better by any measurable standard.


Wow and here I thought you couldn't sound any more arrogant.
May 14, 2013 6:58 PM

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Mar 2012
1575
Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
AnimageNeby said:

The thought is appealing to think that, for sure. But somehow, I find this mindset too... self-serving. In essence, it doesn't really differ from other cultures in other times, who thought of themselves *they* were far further evolved, also - even especially - morally so, compared to all the 'other' barbarian cultures out there.

I don't subscribe to a philosophy of relative morality and therefore I don't happen to have these same worries that you do. I am perfectly secure in my belief that my culture is better, more advanced, and morally superior to those cultures of the past. Empirical data about the rising standard of living, the near elimination of true poverty, and even further: the free choice of people to maintain said society; all data supports my conclusion that my society is, in fact, better by any measurable standard.


Wow and here I thought you couldn't sound any more arrogant.

You haven't seen anything yet.
Let's go bowling.
May 14, 2013 7:23 PM

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PoeticJustice said:
Hybridbloodszak said:
Ledo's development in this episode I found particularly engaging. We've slowly but steadily been seeing him become more human.

I mean now he notices Amy as a girl and females in general when in episode 1 girls were the last thing on his mind. What makes this growth work is how all of this is being told through subtle details that Production IG puts into the show. At dinner when Bellows was arguing the blonde guy(forget his name all the time) he wasn't even paying attention to them but to Amy, Saaya, and Melty dancing on stage. The fanservice in this context worked for me for what it was trying to establish with Ledo

^

This guy. He gets it. LOL At people complaining about fanservice this ep. It was obviously used for a purpose. Ledo is becoming human like my mans over here just said.


Glad I wasn't the only person able to appreciate this. This is literally the first time I have ever felt fan-service in anime to be acceptable, justified, and actually pretty enjoyable simply because of how effectively it helped to develop Red's character.
May 14, 2013 7:55 PM

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Mar 2013
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Darklight0303 said:
StopDropAndBowl said:
AnimageNeby said:

The thought is appealing to think that, for sure. But somehow, I find this mindset too... self-serving. In essence, it doesn't really differ from other cultures in other times, who thought of themselves *they* were far further evolved, also - even especially - morally so, compared to all the 'other' barbarian cultures out there.

I don't subscribe to a philosophy of relative morality and therefore I don't happen to have these same worries that you do. I am perfectly secure in my belief that my culture is better, more advanced, and morally superior to those cultures of the past. Empirical data about the rising standard of living, the near elimination of true poverty, and even further: the free choice of people to maintain said society; all data supports my conclusion that my society is, in fact, better by any measurable standard.


Wow and here I thought you couldn't sound any more arrogant.

Hold on, this is kind of interesting. Bowl, explain your morality then. In depth.
"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

"...but all these feels that are currently assaulting me don't seem to care. Conversely, I'm also aggressively erect at the moment..."
May 14, 2013 8:01 PM
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lizardking461 said:
Glad I wasn't the only person able to appreciate this. This is literally the first time I have ever felt fan-service in anime to be acceptable, justified, and actually pretty enjoyable simply because of how effectively it helped to develop Red's character.


Yes and no. The trouble is that Ledo's development has been too easy. Gargantia is an easy sell, beautiful girls, people who seem not to have a real care in the world. Who wouldn't be seduced by this world. However, if this is all this animation has to say, if this is only an "after school special" (TV Trope it), then all the fan service really is just being exploitative.

Now I have written elsewhere why I don't think this is the case, and I am not saying that we need something "serious" to happen or for people to die or for action to occur, but right now all we have in this series is Fletcher Christian on Tahiti, or what any repressed white dude would experience being exposed to tropical paradise story, as it stands now the meaning is just too small. Its like splashing "racism is bad" on a canvas and calling it art. No it isn't. The message is of course true, but that doesn't make the telling of the message anything more than that. For Gargantia to transcend being dull it has to rise above this with something, anything, to make sense of everything we have seen.
May 14, 2013 8:06 PM
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6648
Pusswookie said:
Hold on, this is kind of interesting. Bowl, explain your morality then. In depth.


Humm, I was about to defend AnimageNeby because I get his point, but then again Darknight could very well be right. It's an interesting situation because this is an assumption question, not a logical question.

Quantitatively AnimageNeby is correct, the present is morally superior to the past. However, this doesn't mean that one can condemn the past. As a historian, I would very much enjoy a discussion around this.
Takuan_SohoMay 14, 2013 8:15 PM
May 14, 2013 8:17 PM

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Jun 2012
3948
Great episode again, very enjoyable (although no action yet again).

Looking forward to some action, finally ^^

May 14, 2013 8:17 PM

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Jul 2010
2471
Well useless fanservice aside.I really liked it, the atmosphere is great, and its SO relaxing to watch.I never expected any epic-space-battles anime after reading synopsis, so im satisfied with what im seeing.I have a feeling shit will hit the fan soon though.Peace doesnt last long anywhere.
For now imo this is one of best titles from this season.
May 14, 2013 9:11 PM
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Jan 2013
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Takuan_Soho said:
Pusswookie said:
Hold on, this is kind of interesting. Bowl, explain your morality then. In depth.


Humm, I was about to defend AnimageNeby because I get his point, but then again Darknight could very well be right. It's an interesting situation because this is an assumption question, not a logical question.

Quantitatively AnimageNeby is correct, the present is morally superior to the past. However, this doesn't mean that one can condemn the past. As a historian, I would very much enjoy a discussion around this.

May I ask what sort of histrian you are? A historian of anime history, local history, or? I've not heard of any decent historians saying the present is morally superior to the past. How come you're sure of it unless you have a time machine? How do you know people/societies of any lost civilization were morally inferior? It's said, for example, there were people of a certain culture who swept roads with brooms to not kill tiny creatures such as ants whenever they walked. [You must know who they were if you are a historian.]
May 14, 2013 10:32 PM

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May 2010
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Ledo is about to get some.

In other news, the ending was the best part...WAS IT A SQUID OR AN ALIEN!?
May 15, 2013 1:12 AM
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saxophone15 said:
You act like there's only one possible way to depict the scene and that's not true. You keep trying to explain what Ledo does like I don't understand. I don't care whether they were trying to reel in more money or were only thinking about the context of the scene....I don't like the choices made. There is always another way to shoot a scene (so to speak).

Then if you were a director, how would you present it? IMO the directors did a great job with the episode overall, it's just that some people couldn't take all the boobage and skin with their closed minds. Zooming in is just zooming in, made for emphasis. LOL at the people talking about child prostitution, did anything happen? All the girls did was dancing. You didn't like it, I get that, but to imply that you can do a better job is blasphemy. There will always be another way, but it being better is completely subjective.

Try and get out to a few clubs. Maybe that'll open your mind to different things, that maybe semi-naked dancing girls are not interpreted as perverse, even though the purpose behind it is sexual.
May 15, 2013 2:46 AM

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Jun 2010
3696
Not so great animation this episode. What happened Production I.G?

Anyways, nice fanservice.
May 15, 2013 3:10 AM

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Mar 2013
444
phoenixdragon said:
Takuan_Soho said:
Pusswookie said:
Hold on, this is kind of interesting. Bowl, explain your morality then. In depth.


Humm, I was about to defend AnimageNeby because I get his point, but then again Darknight could very well be right. It's an interesting situation because this is an assumption question, not a logical question.

Quantitatively AnimageNeby is correct, the present is morally superior to the past. However, this doesn't mean that one can condemn the past. As a historian, I would very much enjoy a discussion around this.

May I ask what sort of histrian you are? A historian of anime history, local history, or? I've not heard of any decent historians saying the present is morally superior to the past. How come you're sure of it unless you have a time machine? How do you know people/societies of any lost civilization were morally inferior? It's said, for example, there were people of a certain culture who swept roads with brooms to not kill tiny creatures such as ants whenever they walked. [You must know who they were if you are a historian.]

Yeah. Don't get the wrong idea Soho but when I read that my initial response was something along the lines of

I mean that's a really broad statement to make. If anything, I would say that given what we know now, morally abject choices and statements are that much more contemptible. It's one thing for someone ignorant of the repercussions to do bad things, but we today don't really have an excuse.
StickyWizardMay 15, 2013 3:14 AM
"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

"...but all these feels that are currently assaulting me don't seem to care. Conversely, I'm also aggressively erect at the moment..."
May 15, 2013 3:13 AM

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3019
Absolutely brilliant, Uro is good at creating gripping plots with heighten moral conflicts, but this is something else. The last episode has been great, but this one takes the cake. The atmospheric building reminds me of The Last Exile and Eureka Seven. In Sci-fi, you don't need flashy battles, creating a complete fictional world that people can immerse in is a must.

One of my complains about Uro's Psycho-Pass is that the world building down to the mundane human level in that anime was lacking; Uro was focusing too much on plot progression. This time, he finally got it right.

The pacing is very good, exceptionally at the final dance. We can really feel the rising romance from begin to end. Even thought the context is different, it's been a long time since I feel something similar to this:



For people who want actions, the ending scene confirms that this brief happiness has come to an end. The enemy can be either from Earth, or be dragged to Earth with Ledo.
May 15, 2013 5:21 AM

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BHancock said:
Then if you were a director, how would you present it? IMO the directors did a great job with the episode overall, it's just that some people couldn't take all the boobage and skin with their closed minds. Zooming in is just zooming in, made for emphasis. LOL at the people talking about child prostitution, did anything happen? All the girls did was dancing. You didn't like it, I get that, but to imply that you can do a better job is blasphemy. There will always be another way, but it being better is completely subjective.

Try and get out to a few clubs. Maybe that'll open your mind to different things, that maybe semi-naked dancing girls are not interpreted as perverse, even though the purpose behind it is sexual.

I never implied I can do a better job, I only said that there is always another way. I also never said that other way would be objectively better...just that I personally don't like the way it's done here.

Their bodies didn't need to be emphasized quite that much to get the point across (or to set the atmosphere).....I'm pretty sure we would be intelligent enough to figure it out for ourselves (no need to have it shoved in our faces). That's why I say it's unnecessary....I believe zooming out a bit would still invoke the same idea. There's always a chance though that the reason the creators had some scenes zoomed in so much was because they wanted to take the opportunity to have those scenes double as fanservice for increased sales, which I would automatically find unnecessary for this show in particular. I think the premise and story of the show is enough to carry it without needing to resort to tricks like this.

I don't have a problem with the amount of skin showing. I do question why they would decide to participate in that kind of dance and in that kind of setting in the first place however. I don't think it's wrong to question that either and I wouldn't consider someone who does to have a "closed mind". I am sure there are things you wouldn't agree with that someone would tell you, "you just need to open your mind" (that excuse could be applied to almost anything regarding morality).

I have to say....one thing that annoys me here is if anyone says anything negative about perceived fanservice (the most popular kind), they are automatically categorized as someone who just doesn't like any fanservice (or in the context of this show in particular, someone who is just looking for action). Sure maybe it's like that for some people, but not for everyone.
May 15, 2013 5:32 AM

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Jan 2012
1833
The character designs and a lot of the art are don't by a H mangaka and this bit was wrote by an eroge writer. Can people please stop expecting chastity and chill out and try to enjoy this for what it is?

At least the people who matter seem to be enjoying this, sales spiked during the last 2 episodes but that's really not that unexpected considering who the main demographic that pre-order BD are.
May 15, 2013 6:09 AM

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Apr 2013
711
Calming episode with Ledo trying to be a fishermen and discovering Gargantia's cuisine
Btw, I think the animation of this anime is good, but not as good as people here thinks
And that fanservice dance was just decent
May 15, 2013 6:32 AM

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Jun 2010
147
Very good episode, Murata is going a very good work with the anime, and as well with the cooperation with Urobochi.
Next episode a battle with a Hideauze!, man, shitstorm incoming...
May 15, 2013 6:57 AM

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Mar 2012
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Takuan_Soho said:

Quantitatively AnimageNeby is correct, the present is morally superior to the past. However, this doesn't mean that one can condemn the past. As a historian, I would very much enjoy a discussion around this.

Can one condemn the past? I would say that one can condemn it in the sense that one can make a value judgement about it. Saying: this culture is better than this one, is perfectly valid, as long as one defines what constitutes "better". I also believe we can condemn actions and peoples of the past. Ghengis Khan's actions were contemptible, Hitler was a contemptible person.

But I would agree that we shouldn't condemn the past insofar as applying moral standards of today upon the thinking of those in the past. I can condemn the act of owning slaves by early Americans without applying modern standards to their beliefs and thoughts; or more accurately, without taking their specific culture and society out of the equation.

By any objective standard, the past was, in many ways, morally inferior to the present in terms of cultural beliefs and standards. By those subjective standards of philosophy, there can be no real discussion that does not devolve into an argument of belief and religious standard. Therefore, I would avoid those subjective reasons and justifications in favor of establishing that objective standard: the general quality of life of the average human. The general quality of life of the average human is higher now (in those modern societies that apply to this particular discussion) than it was then, therefore, by that objective standard: the culture of the past was inferior. Now, obviously we could have subjective arguments about whether the general rising quality of life for the average human is a good standard, or even a good thing at all, but most people agree that it is a good thing and thus would agree that it is a fine standard to judge by.

But this is kind of off-topic to the show, except peripherally I suppose to the discussion of whether Ledo's culture is better or worse, by those objective standards, than Gargantia's culture (preferable or not is pretty much settled). I would argue that Gargantia, having a strong emphasis on human rights and a seemingly strong communal bond, is far superior.
Let's go bowling.
May 15, 2013 7:04 AM

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Mar 2013
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I'm guessing next episode is going to be action packed because of the appearance of the Hideauze on Earth. This episode was interesting though, (the dancing *-*) it's good to see some fanservice once in a while anyways. :p
May 15, 2013 7:11 AM

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Aug 2011
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That solo dance for Ledo was beautiful <3 :)
Do not feed the trolls! They bite ;D
May 15, 2013 7:38 AM

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2166
ReasonDesu said:
The character designs and a lot of the art are don't by a H mangaka and this bit was wrote by an eroge writer. Can people please stop expecting chastity and chill out and try to enjoy this for what it is?

I'm not expecting chastity, I'm just expecting something entertaining (which the show generally is). I complain because I want to be able to enjoy this as much as possible but certain aspects of the last two episodes have hindered my enjoyment somewhat. So far it's not enough for me to drop the show or anything (the overall story is too interesting to do that). The reason I've replied more than I normally would is because I feel my complaints are being misunderstood.

I'm excited for the next episode as it looks like we might get some revelations in the story.
May 15, 2013 8:15 AM

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May 2010
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All those cute Ledo/Amy moments. ♥(*´▽`*)
💕
May 15, 2013 9:18 AM
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Pusswookie said:
I mean that's a really broad statement to make. If anything, I would say that given what we know now, morally abject choices and statements are that much more contemptible. It's one thing for someone ignorant of the repercussions to do bad things, but we today don't really have an excuse.


On any absolute standard of morality, of course the present is better. Murder in pre-civilized society approached 40%, rape of women was the norm. Even in "civilized" society until relatively recently, revenge killings were morally acceptable, slavery was universally accepted (don't forget that even the Old Testament was okay with it), that disable children should be left to die of exposure was widely practiced, rape and rapine in many situations were accepted, that elites had the right to dispose of their "lessers" was encoded in law (in the 18th century a popular pastime for London "gentlemen" was to ride around and disfigure the poor they came across), the butchery of animals for mere entertainment (tying cats tails together than stringing them across a line to let them rend one another was a popular past time). One cannot read any history without realizing that society, on a whole, has improved dramatically on the moral front. That statement is an objective fact. Even the most moral people in the past accepted things we would (and should) find morally repugnant today.

That said, this doesn't give us the right to condemn the past. Times were different, reality was different, pressures were different. We like to believe that, if by some miracle we were put into the past like in the Novel 1632 we would act better, but that is an unfounded and untestable statement, and as such we should look at the past with understanding, not superiority.
May 15, 2013 9:33 AM
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StopDropAndBowl said:
But this is kind of off-topic to the show, except peripherally I suppose to the discussion of whether Ledo's culture is better or worse, by those objective standards, than Gargantia's culture (preferable or not is pretty much settled). I would argue that Gargantia, having a strong emphasis on human rights and a seemingly strong communal bond, is far superior.


It has interest because the question of whether the Alliance is good or not does really depend on the circumstances of their actual existence: if humanity is facing extinction and their actions are the only means of survival, then one can argue that they are justified (though I can safely say that the Alliance is not moral, the clues were all there in the first episode).

As for Gargantia. It depends. Of course as it is shown it seems far superior, but as I wrote above, its too easy. A society in the existence as explained in episodes 2-4 (technically advanced and numerically superior pirates surround them, they have a precarious existence on even basic resources), shouldn't be this "idyllic". Hell, all these girls surrounded everyday by sun and salt water, have remarkable skin, begging the question as to what hi-tech moisturizer to which they have access. If anything, Gargantia is amoral. They don't have to make moral decisions. It is easy to be a pacifistic if you rely on others (national army and police) to protect you and allow you the luxury of not to have to think or suffer the consequences of your morality.

Side note: as for not "condemning" the past. I was speaking shorthand above, yes of course one can condemn those in the past, but in order to do so you have to understand the period in question and then condemn people based on those standards. We can condemn a "Hitler" because even by the standards of his day he was a truly horrible person. But the further back we go, the harder it is to condemn people. Ghengis Khan doesn't deserve to be singled out for any special condemnation, his contemporaries were just as bad and actually the Mongols, once in power, proved to be relatively good stewards.
May 15, 2013 10:12 AM

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Takuan_Soho said:
Pusswookie said:
I mean that's a really broad statement to make. If anything, I would say that given what we know now, morally abject choices and statements are that much more contemptible. It's one thing for someone ignorant of the repercussions to do bad things, but we today don't really have an excuse.


On any absolute standard of morality, of course the present is better. Murder in pre-civilized society approached 40%, rape of women was the norm. Even in "civilized" society until relatively recently, revenge killings were morally acceptable, slavery was universally accepted (don't forget that even the Old Testament was okay with it), that disable children should be left to die of exposure was widely practiced, rape and rapine in many situations were accepted, that elites had the right to dispose of their "lessers" was encoded in law (in the 18th century a popular pastime for London "gentlemen" was to ride around and disfigure the poor they came across), the butchery of animals for mere entertainment (tying cats tails together than stringing them across a line to let them rend one another was a popular past time). One cannot read any history without realizing that society, on a whole, has improved dramatically on the moral front. That statement is an objective fact. Even the most moral people in the past accepted things we would (and should) find morally repugnant today.

That said, this doesn't give us the right to condemn the past. Times were different, reality was different, pressures were different. We like to believe that, if by some miracle we were put into the past like in the Novel 1632 we would act better, but that is an unfounded and untestable statement, and as such we should look at the past with understanding, not superiority.

...Well yeah, that's... kind of what I was saying. Except for the "absolute standard of morality." That, in and of itself, is impossible [or at least, highly debatable]
The point is that morality is highly contextual; while such things were obviously a more common occurrence, it's also important to realize that those activities were condoned by society at large. At present, there is wide spread condemnation of such activities, meaning that those who do them regardless are that much more accountable. So I think you guys are missing the point entirely; we aren't inherently better because we know more, but we should be.

What's worse, a child unwittingly killing a dog by feeding it chocolate, or a grown man doing so with malicious intent?
Knowledge is power, and in the wise words of Spiderman's Aunt, "With great power comes great responsibility."

Oh yeah, and Bowl: There is not a strong emphasis on human rights in the show. Forming a strong communal bond on the other hand, definitely. Alongside integrating into a foreign society, testing boundaries and the subsequent gratification of novel experiences, and perhaps later, the repercussions of living in a militaristic Darwinist society, but it hasn't really delved into that yet :/
I'm sorry, there was pretty much no need to call you out like that, I just kind of...felt like it. Also, Negby, you incorrectly used "quantitatively" in your response to me. I mean, you had the right idea, just the wrong context to use it in [especially in relation to something intangible like morality].

I know you probably weren't doing it, but I see a lot of pseudo intellectuals [never had the chance to say that] using unnecessary words on this forum in an effort to be...I don't know, relevant, I guess?
StickyWizardMay 15, 2013 10:30 AM
"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams

"...but all these feels that are currently assaulting me don't seem to care. Conversely, I'm also aggressively erect at the moment..."
May 15, 2013 10:23 AM
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Oct 2012
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Taking away the things I'm satisfied with ...

saxophone15 said:
Their bodies didn't need to be emphasized quite that much to get the point across (or to set the atmosphere).....I'm pretty sure we would be intelligent enough to figure it out for ourselves (no need to have it shoved in our faces). That's why I say it's unnecessary....I believe zooming out a bit would still invoke the same idea. There's always a chance though that the reason the creators had some scenes zoomed in so much was because they wanted to take the opportunity to have those scenes double as fanservice for increased sales, which I would automatically find unnecessary for this show in particular. I think the premise and story of the show is enough to carry it without needing to resort to tricks like this.

It's praiseworthy that you think SNG's premise and plot is good, because most people don't look at it that way and instead praise "revolutionary" pieces like Aku no Hana or Shingeki no Kyojin. Those titles have great premises and plot, it's just that I believe SNG is, if not better than, among them.

I remember quite a few instances where camera work was to create the illusion of excitement and anticipation much like how speed lines do in manga. I think it's great that they did that in the dancing, because if there weren't any, we'd lose lots of context and them dancing would just be another part of the background. With all the zooming they did, they put emphasis on it. Sure they might have just made an ordinary shot where there isn't any zooming, but it just won't have the same effect. It's like shooting a bed scene in a movie, where there's all the different angles employed. The angles zoom into curves and skin, but without any perversion into it. It heightens the 'sexiness' effect per se, as compared to shooting it on 5 basic angles only (top, left, right, forward, backward). You might as well have been shooting a porno.

If we did like most of you said (no zooming, angles are basic 5 only), it's just some ordinary dance with sexy girls in skimpy clothes. Because the directors added the zooming, it creates this electrifying atmosphere and besides, it also accurately portrays where a man would see a woman dressed in that while dancing like that. I sometimes amaze myself in understanding men, and I haven't had a boyfriend in like 3 years and counting.

It's little things like these which is why I continue to appreciate cinematography. You might have seen desecration of young girls, all I saw was great angle work.

I don't have a problem with the amount of skin showing. I do question why they would decide to participate in that kind of dance and in that kind of setting in the first place however. I don't think it's wrong to question that either and I wouldn't consider someone who does to have a "closed mind". I am sure there are things you wouldn't agree with that someone would tell you, "you just need to open your mind" (that excuse could be applied to almost anything regarding morality).

The fact is, I've opened my mind to your side. Coming from a Christian family, I more than understand where you're coming from. Being a devout Sunday churchgoer, even more. However, this is where I separate my own thinking from the director's thinking. Know the saying "Put yourself in one's shoes"? This is what I'm trying to do here.

You question why the girls would participate in that kind of dance and that kind of setting. Well, maybe the festival was that kind of festival and the dancing was that kind of dancing. It's like asking native tribesmen why their women don't wear tops and why their dances always feature warlike actions. It's their culture. Unless we know more about it to make an inference, you just roll with it.

I have to say....one thing that annoys me here is if anyone says anything negative about perceived fanservice (the most popular kind), they are automatically categorized as someone who just doesn't like any fanservice (or in the context of this show in particular, someone who is just looking for action). Sure maybe it's like that for some people, but not for everyone.

It's the internet. It's hard to address a group without generalizing. I've come to accept that fact. I've just had to think: am I part of what he/she is saying? If not then I ignore it. If I do, then I either try to explain my stance or ignore it. Not hard to do, really.
May 15, 2013 10:33 AM

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Dec 2012
944
another beautiful episode.
the music and dancing were great. it could've been a better animation, but it still tops the animation of morgiana /cough
and the way ledo and amy looked at each other... they're both so adorable :)

i'm actually surprised that i enjoy this show so much. i always worry that i'll get annoyed by the next episode if it's just another episode that shows the daily life of them, but everytime i watch it i kind of calm down and it's just so pretty to look at and... i somehow fell in love with it, ngl.

oh, and:
Kami_no_Kage said:
Okay, who else was halfway expecting Ledo to tell Amy he wanted to reproduce with her? Anyone? Just me?
I WANT THIS TO HAPPEN!
May 15, 2013 10:46 AM

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2821
Wowwww... I like this episode..
I love the scene when Amy is dancing in the stage while Ledo is very serious and amaze while looking at her...

And the most favorite scene is when Ledo protected Amy from that lightning and hug here :D and then amy danced gracefully and Ledo with his reaction .. he was amazed at her.. while his mouth is open.. lol ^^
May 15, 2013 11:02 AM
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StopDropAndBowl said:
AnimageNeby said:

The thought is appealing to think that, for sure. But somehow, I find this mindset too... self-serving. In essence, it doesn't really differ from other cultures in other times, who thought of themselves *they* were far further evolved, also - even especially - morally so, compared to all the 'other' barbarian cultures out there.

I don't subscribe to a philosophy of relative morality and therefore I don't happen to have these same worries that you do. I am perfectly secure in my belief that my culture is better, more advanced, and morally superior to those cultures of the past. Empirical data about the rising standard of living, the near elimination of true poverty, and even further: the free choice of people to maintain said society; all data supports my conclusion that my society is, in fact, better by any measurable standard.


Yes, but the point was that more advanced (in a technological, military, economic, etc. sense) does not equates morally superior, and that every society feels 'better', especially in the moral sense.

That's why I gave the analogy of two Romans having the same conversation we do. They were the better and more advanced empire of their time: with the same reasoning that you have, they could equally conclude that marriage of a 40y old with a 14y old is, in fact, a sign of morally superiority too.

So, it's not necessarily about any 'worries' I have, but rather the fact that this line of reasoning is rather spurious. The data supports that we currently have it better, yes, but this is mainly through advances of medical and other sciences. It does not follow, from that, that we inherently are also morally superior.

The *historical* data points to the contrary; there have been more advanced societies in the past, like the Roman empire, but also during the middle ages in Arabic countries, etc. that were clearly superior, yet were clearly NOT morally superior - at least, not what one would call morally superior with our standards. No doubt, however, that the members of those societies during their heyday, did not subscribe to a philosophy of relative morality neither - in fact, records show they clearly don't - and that they never doubted that they were superior in every sense, including morality and ethics. All data back then, supported their conclusion that their society was, in fact, better by any measurable standard.

So unless you would claim those societies were, indeed, morally superior in those days compared with their contemporaries (which can't be claimed while using our current moral values, because some other cultures back then did not allow sex with 14 year olds, and some, like the Egyptians, even had a laws of animal-protection - 2000 years before we had the same here, etc.), than the reasoning that because a society is the most advanced, it is also the most morally superior, is not warranted.

Feeling secure in a belief does not equal being actually right. In fact, most of the time, without any feeling of doubt to a given stance or premise, and some contemplation and self-reflection about it, you get the opposite. It's the people who never doubt themselves or their beliefs that tend to be mistaken the most.

As for maintaining said society: the Roman empire lasted - if you count the East-Roman empire with it - almost 1000 years. We're FAR from being able to say the same with our current 'more modern' democratic Western countries.
AnimageNebyMay 15, 2013 12:20 PM
May 15, 2013 11:41 AM

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Dec 2012
4876
Salary that Ledo got in Gargantia is too much for his standard. That is very interesting. Now we know that soldier like Ledo only get food ration and that is it, nothing else.
What an extraordinary fan service for this episode! the three main girls are did some erotic dancing in front of many people(mostly male). I wonder if they were doing that because it is part of the culture or their job?
So, the enemy that Ledo fought all along also live under the sea? And they are very similar to squid? So, squid someday will be our enemy? But I love squid . . . They are delcious.


Zel_Ezl said:
Wowwww... I like this episode..
I love the scene when Amy is dancing in the stage while Ledo is very serious and amaze while looking at her...

And the most favorite scene is when Ledo protected Amy from that lightning and hug here :D and then amy danced gracefully and Ledo with his reaction .. he was amazed at her.. while his mouth is open.. lol ^^

I like the moment when Amy was mesmerized by Ledo when he try to protect her from the lightning.


Kami_no_Kage said:
Okay, who else was halfway expecting Ledo to tell Amy he wanted to reproduce with her? Anyone? Just me?

Well, I did not expecting that. What I expecting was Ledo suddenly hug Amy and confused by his act because he never felt that way before.
I like anime.
May 15, 2013 11:51 AM
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Takuan_Soho said:
Pusswookie said:
Hold on, this is kind of interesting. Bowl, explain your morality then. In depth.


Humm, I was about to defend AnimageNeby because I get his point, but then again Darknight could very well be right. It's an interesting situation because this is an assumption question, not a logical question.

Quantitatively AnimageNeby is correct, the present is morally superior to the past. However, this doesn't mean that one can condemn the past. As a historian, I would very much enjoy a discussion around this.


Hmm... I didn't actually say the present is morally superior to the past, in fact I rather think there is no proof or indication for that stance. (a bit the opposite, thus).

There IS an assumption here of StopDropAndBowl, however, that morality isn't relative. This specific assumption (well, the reasons for it) *can* be logically analysed, however. And when one does, and look at it objectively, one sees that morality and ethics have always been relative, namely relative to the normative standards of their culture and time they live in. The *belief* of our moral superiority is not, on itself, proof that we are, in fact, morally superior. Clearly one can see that. Every society in the past - with whatever mores and ethics - thought of themselves as morally superior. Even many Islamic countries today are convinced they are morally superior.

So that is no argument at all.

But, he continuous, we are 'superior' and the 'most advanced' and this confirms our moral superiority. Two objections to this I have raised:

1)First of all, there is no direct link between being technologically, military, economically, etc. more advanced, and being *morally* more advanced. Morality and ethics comes forth as a result of human socialisation and interaction, not because of ones' supremacy in other fields of endeavour. Unless one follows the adage 'might makes right'.

2) If we look at historical data, and look at the superior societies of that time, we can find ample proof that their morals were not necessarily superior (as we see it now) to that of other countries or empires. This directly contradicts the notion that because one is superior and more advanced, one has also superior morals.

Yes, WE are NOW the most advanced, just like they were then. But if one thinks this inherently means we're also morally superior, and use that as a valid argument, than that argument should be used in reciprocity.

Even in a more recent past, this leads to some contradictions. After all, we've been more advanced in the West since the Industrialisation, yet, during that time, we have done things - wilfully, and according to the mores and norms of that time - that we now would consider extremely unethical and amoral - especially towards other civilisations. Yet, not all of those other civilisations - though they were 'less advanced' - had an ethical or moral value-system that was inferior than that of the West, at least how we would value it today.

This points to the fact that either it's not because a society is more advanced that it has superior ethics - thus undermining his basic argument, or that they actually were right in believing they had moral superiority at that time, while we now think they didn't...which would prove the relative nature of morals and ethics.
AnimageNebyMay 15, 2013 1:59 PM
May 15, 2013 2:23 PM
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Pusswookie said:
Also, Negby, you incorrectly used "quantitatively" in your response to me. I mean, you had the right idea, just the wrong context to use it in [especially in relation to something intangible like morality].


Ermm..is 'Negby' addressing me?

Am I to understand the word is correct, but not the context in which it's used? It's not entirely impossible, since I'm not native English, and it sometimes happens that a word which makes sense in my language in a certain context, doesn't in English. If it's specifically the context...well, I would have to see the post again. Can you give me the link? I can't seem to find the word it in my posts...

PS. You SURE *I* was the one using it? Because I did find a post with "Quantitatively" in it, addressing you, but I wasn't the one saying it. Rather it was Takuan_Soho.

(Glad I got rid of the potential label of pseudo-intellectual, and I still remain relevant ;-p )
AnimageNebyMay 15, 2013 2:31 PM
May 15, 2013 2:38 PM
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AnimageNeby said:
Pusswookie said:
Also, Negby, you incorrectly used "quantitatively" in your response to me. I mean, you had the right idea, just the wrong context to use it in [especially in relation to something intangible like morality].


Ermm..is 'Negby' addressing me?

Am I to understand the word is correct, but not the context in which it's used? It's not entirely impossible, since I'm not native English, and it sometimes happens that a word which makes sense in my language in a certain context, doesn't in English. If it's specifically the context...well, I would have to see the post again. Can you give me the link? I can't seem to find the word it in my posts...

PS. You SURE *I* was the one using it? Because I did find a post with "Quantitatively" in it, addressing you, but I wasn't the one saying it. Rather it was Takuan_Soho.

(Glad I got rid of the potential label of pseudo-intellectual, and I still remain relevant ;-p )


No, he confused me with you, understandable since I used your name in the same sentence. It's a "those with no sin can cast the first stone" type of mistake :-)

As for my use being "wrong", I would disagree. I also disagree that there cannot be an absolute standard for morality or that morality is "intangible". If I accepted either of those last two statements, then I would agree that the word was used wrong, but since I don't I am safe!
May 15, 2013 2:48 PM

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PerlaNemesis said:
I loved those sweet moments between Amy & Ledo. And I'm looking forward to Ledo's battle with that Hideauze.

bastek66 said:
Better than Magi's

100% agreed.

Can someone please tell me what they mean by "Magi"? I don't get the reference...
May 15, 2013 2:53 PM
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Shadowlegend said:
PerlaNemesis said:
I loved those sweet moments between Amy & Ledo. And I'm looking forward to Ledo's battle with that Hideauze.

bastek66 said:
Better than Magi's

100% agreed.

Can someone please tell me what they mean by "Magi"? I don't get the reference...


Its another animation. Extremely popular manga series, but the adaptation has been very disappointing for the fan of the series based on what I read here.
May 15, 2013 2:56 PM

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11325
Takuan_Soho said:
Shadowlegend said:
PerlaNemesis said:
I loved those sweet moments between Amy & Ledo. And I'm looking forward to Ledo's battle with that Hideauze.

bastek66 said:
Better than Magi's

100% agreed.

Can someone please tell me what they mean by "Magi"? I don't get the reference...


Its another animation. Extremely popular manga series, but the adaptation has been very disappointing for the fan of the series based on what I read here.


It was a travesty that had low production value and a horrible anime original ending.
May 15, 2013 3:02 PM
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Takuan_Soho said:
AnimageNeby said:
Pusswookie said:
Also, Negby, you incorrectly used "quantitatively" in your response to me. I mean, you had the right idea, just the wrong context to use it in [especially in relation to something intangible like morality].


Ermm..is 'Negby' addressing me?

Am I to understand the word is correct, but not the context in which it's used? It's not entirely impossible, since I'm not native English, and it sometimes happens that a word which makes sense in my language in a certain context, doesn't in English. If it's specifically the context...well, I would have to see the post again. Can you give me the link? I can't seem to find the word it in my posts...

PS. You SURE *I* was the one using it? Because I did find a post with "Quantitatively" in it, addressing you, but I wasn't the one saying it. Rather it was Takuan_Soho.

(Glad I got rid of the potential label of pseudo-intellectual, and I still remain relevant ;-p )


No, he confused me with you, understandable since I used your name in the same sentence. It's a "those with no sin can cast the first stone" type of mistake :-)

As for my use being "wrong", I would disagree. I also disagree that there cannot be an absolute standard for morality or that morality is "intangible". If I accepted either of those last two statements, then I would agree that the word was used wrong, but since I don't I am safe!


Well, I'm not delving into whether the word was used correctly or not, but I do want to respond to your last part.

I would say that the only thing 'absolute' concerning morals and ethics of a society, is that there always HAVE been morals and ethical systems. In the entire human history, every society had morals, discerning 'right' from 'wrong'.

However, what *constitutes* right and wrong, varies wildly - often even in diametrically opposed ways - and one can not say one or another moral or ethical belief has been 'absolute'. If it were, it would have been universally implemented. We almost never see such a thing. There are very few behaviours that are to be found in every civilisation through every time period to be considered immoral in all cases.

If one claims, thus, that a certain 'morality' is absolute, is it not rather considered absolute within our own timeframe and culture, that is being meant, here? Which - of course - actually doesn't make it absolute in an...well, absolute way. ;-) I would agree with the stance that we think (many of our) current moral rules and ethics have an absolute value (human rights comes to mind). But then again, so thought almost every society in the history of humankind, all with their own morals and ethical beliefs.

Objectively speaking, thus, there is no real moral absolute. Every claim of the absolute character of a certain morality that has been uttered, only was considered absolute in a certain culture and time, but therefore not in others. And one can't consider the claim of someone that 'their morality is absolute' on itself be enough proof of it actually being absolute, I'm sure you can see that.
AnimageNebyMay 15, 2013 3:11 PM
May 15, 2013 3:46 PM
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6648
AnimageNeby said:
There are very few behaviours that are to be found in every civilisation through every time period to be considered immoral in all cases.


Even if there is only one that is found in every culture and in every time, wouldn't that suggest that there is an absolute? Is slavery sometimes morally good? Is rape sometimes morally good? Is torturing for entertainment sometimes morally good? Unless one wants to argue that they can be morally good, then yes, there are absolutes in morality.

People who speak of 'relativism' never really believe in relativism, scratch the service and they always have a very absolute sense of "morality". The cry "morality is relative" is a rhetorical evasion not an expression of truth. Denying one the right to judge something based upon one's own sense of morality is both a judgment AND an assertion that one's own morality is both superior and absolute.

Edit: wanted to add. I believe that refusing to acknowledge that there has been moral progress is an affront to all the great moral reformers of the past who through argument and example HAVE made the world a better place to live in; at the same time condemning those in the past for their "sins" without understanding their world is likewise an affront to those moralists. That we live in a society where people will not accept those horrific arguments about why "slavery is moral" is a testament to the intellect and effort of the abolitionists; to write off antebellum South as merely being "slavers" blots how truly revolutionary and advanced these abolitionists truly were.
Takuan_SohoMay 15, 2013 3:58 PM
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