Suisei no Gargantia Episode 3 Discussion

AnimageNeby said:
So however you turn it, it would have made more sense to let Ledo do it,

symbv said:

Worst use only if your assumption of "let's suppress and overpower them" is the best use is true.

symbv said:

The fleet wants to deal with the pirates in their time-honored manner, by taking up their challenge, and they want to see how far they can go with that. When the pirates turned out to be even more powerful than they first seem (all those robots and submarines etc) they had to get Ledo to intervene more directly. Yes, it may be something about stupid honor or unnecessary lack of trust (towards Ledo) but not as unreasonable as it seems.

symbv said:

t is the best outcome because
1. Some ships could not fight any more but we did not hear ships getting sunk
2. Casualty is limited, on both Gargantia and pirates side. I am sure the pirates killed would have been much fewer than letting Chamber go on a killing spree.
3. People of Gargantia now fully accept Ledo and trust him. They now have a powerful ally to protect them.
4. Ledo gains the ability to enlist assistance from Gargantia side. The "deal" is now on.
5. Ledo is even surprised to find himself getting friends and happy about being accepted into the fleet. This is reflected in his saying ARIGATO at the end of the episode.

symbv said:

Chamber's detection is only good for its own attack. It won't help the fleet's own attack. And as I said earlier, the main point is that they do not want Chamber to do the attack at the beginning.

symbv said:

Who knows if it is some device which is part of Chamber? Even in space there can be lots of occasions when lights are needed.

symbv said:

Demonstration of power is already done in the last episode, and we see that the pirates still want to make a go at the fleet. As for taking hostage, I am not sure how Chamber can do such thing easily, but it already tried the closest thing: Demonstrating that even the most powerful robot is not its match and ask its leader repeatedly to give up and surrender.

Takana_no_Hana said:
Using Ledo is the same as using mass destructive weapons, result in most of lives are taken alive and there's nothing left but a wrecked ship fleet. As you have witnessed his capabilities.

Later on, Ledo has shown that he can resolve conflicts without taking any lives and that's why people salute him.

Takana_no_Hana said:


Using Ledo is the same as using mass destructive weapons, result in most of lives are taken alive and there's nothing left but a wrecked ship fleet. As you have witnessed his capabilities.

Later on, Ledo has shown that he can resolve conflicts without taking any lives and that's why people salute him.

symbv said:
I think you have made a very good point here. This is the best confidence building exercise between the fleet and Ledo/Chamber and it proved to be a great success at the end.

whatever123456 said:

The fleet commanders are supposed to have a brain and some military knowledge. It would be easy to obtain information about Ledo's ability by simply asking him.
It would be retarded to assume he could only be used as either a weapon of mass destruction or not used at all.

whatever123456 said:
In which scenario is that not what you want in a fight/war? Winning is always better than losing. If they didn't want to win they would have just surrendered.

whatever123456 said:

First of all, they knew that they were at a disadvantage from the numbers alone.
They wouldn't have won without Ledo's intervention in any case and they knew or should have known it from the very beginning.
Sacrificing your own men and ships because you want your honorable traditions of killing each other with conventional weapons proves that the fleet commanders are incompetent.

whatever123456 said:

1. We saw atleast one ship exploding, probably more and repairing the damaged ones also is wasted ressources.

whatever123456 said:
3. This acceptance and trust could have also been established by winning the battle without going full retard. I don't know why you think the only way to win his trust was to make him do nothing while the gargantians get slaughtered.

whatever123456 said:

There's absolutely no reason why Ledo shouldn't be able to tell them the coordinates of the enemy fleet.

whatever123456 said:

The surviving pirates didn't really know what hit them. Showing their leader that you can easily wipe out everything you wish to is different.

nauticalblue said:
So they tell Ledo to stop killing humans without a reason with his vaporizer and then proceed to fire cannons at the pirate ships?
That made no sense.

AnimageNeby said:

For the hundredth time: it doesn't make sense EVEN in the 'live and let live'-karma-flowerpower-hippie-Lion-king- pacifistic mindset.

whatever123456 said:

The fleet commanders are supposed to have a brain and some military knowledge. It would be easy to obtain information about Ledo's ability by simply asking him.
It would be retarded to assume he could only be used as either a weapon of mass destruction or not used at all.

AlexGK said:


Maybe because they liked the first 2 episodes and had hopes this will become something really good.
Now they get served this load of crap called episode 3.
Thats the reason maybe?

whatever123456 said:


And Ledo showing his military superiority would be different how exactly (aside from the fact that it would be far more efficient)?

symbv said:
I agree with their insight, meaning their saying that westerners esp Americans may not get the concept. But that does not mean that I think Americans are "war loving". So thinking that I might use "you are American so you won't understand" is a cheap way (and an insult to intelligence) to score points.

You can of course answer this, and if I can I will still post it as an independent post. It is more like you trying to read too much into the post and then use some cheap humor to score points.


But when you made a reply post you are directing to me, right? A smiley emoticon is a hint at some humor, right? If you now say that we never agree on this rule while you asked me to follow some of the rules you proposed (and asked me to tell you something I would like you to follow), then I guess we can just go back to the old days and I would not bother checking if I repeat the points you made in your posts etc then. And if I did not mean no humor in all posts, then what do you think I mean when I said NO HUMOR then ????

You are over-generalizing because you assume that just because I agree with some Japanese fans saying Americans may not get the concept, I will use "you are Americans so you won't understand" to rebuke you. That is over-generalization at its worst.

symbv said:

Yeah, but there are different ways to win and that it s the key thing here.

symbv said:

What if some of the men do not think it is unwinnable? What if those people want to give it a go without Ledo in the picture? The meeting between the leaders shows it clearly that many just could not trust Ledo, and Chamber's overwhelming power just scares them - instead of wanting to make use of it they would rather not see it again. So what Bellows and Ligit have in mind is to show to those people that Ledo can be trusted and Chamber does not even need to use those scary superpower to be of help.

symbv said:

But not sunk. We only heard ships being retired but nothing about ship gone down or destroyed.

symbv said:

Well, I have said before why other methods are not necessarily better than the one they used. The method in this episode seems to be the best way for the people in the fleet to fully accept Ledo without them looking completely useless or Ledo/Chamber looking so terrifying.

symbv said:

You talk as if they have shared a common system of coordination while the marine environment is something totally new to Ledo/Chamber, and they don't even share a common language to start with.

symbv said:

But the pirates ran away precisely because they saw their leader's super-robot got easily overwhelmed and dumped onto the sea. So they do have some idea of what hit them. And as I said, it also already showed abundantly how easily it could destroy the gun turrets of their pirate ships, and yet their leader still wanted to charge, so the last action by calling for surrender while overpowering the robot is almost like showing their leader that you can easily wipe out everything without actually doing it.

Takana_no_Hana said:


It's the fact that Chamber's technology is far exceeded in the current time, and Ledo has just arrived for several days so he's completely a stranger to them. There's no reason for him to help them if he is not bounded by contracts.

After what he had done, obviously they only saw him as a mass destructive weapon. It's more retarded to assume after he annihilated the pirates, he could be used for other purposes rather than killing and destroying. There is no way they can rely on a stranger for their own goods.

starmaker032 said:

Bro I don't think you realise Ledo is a complete alien to them, they barely just found out his name, they aren't even sure if Chamber really doesn't have someone inside, they are not gonna go and start relying on him, they weren't against killing pirates in self defence like Bellow's said but what he did was annihilate them and that got them in deep shit. They don't want anything to do with Ledo, they don't trust him and they aren't gonna then start fighting fights they can't without him. They used him to a minimal because they don't know him and don't want to rely on him.



Ledo is not part of Gargantia that's how it would be different bro. He could be leaving the next day and when they hear that the flying robot is gone, they are gonna die so better not rely on him and show their own strength.

AnimageNeby said:
This *IS* a generalisation. It simply is. Period. You simply can not derive or deduce the 'Western mindset' from some posts claiming something is illogical. As said; it can well be, it IS illogical, for instance. It could well be, those 'some posts' are not from Westerners, etc. So claiming it as such IS a generalisation. I do not see how one can deny this.

AnimageNeby said:

You now say that I'm overgeneralising because you didn't mean that 'all americans are war loving', but I didn't make such a claim in the fist place!!

AnimageNeby said:

You can not blame someone from reading what is actually said, instead of always having to guess what you mean when this diverts from what is implied by it. We agreed we would be more precise in our wordings after all, did we not?

AnimageNeby said:

As for the humour; I guess you are partially right, but then again, I also suggested we could maybe just make it more obvious.

AnimageNeby said:
Wouldn't it, in fact, just be MORE obvious and easier to understand when humour is used, when we DO use smileys every time we use humour? If we do that, there is little chance of glancing over the implied humour, and ironic comments like last time would not be misconstrued.
To fully forsake any humour - at least for me - is quite some heavy demand in comparison to just not repeat my own sentence, or at least quote them.

whatever123456 said:


He helped them before without gaining anything in return, so there was no reason not to ask him if he would help you again and accept this help.
I was not talking about other purposes than killing and destroying.
I was talking about the stupid distinction between either using him for complete annihilation of the enemy or not using his abilites at all.
Use him to destroy their weapons or just to wipe out a few of their ships to make them surrender.
Relying on a stranger is obviously never the preferred option, but they didn't really have other options that didn't involve losing or sacrificing most of your fleet and people.

Elfster said:


No, no, you are getting it wrong. It isn't supposed to make sense. :-D The Gargantia's leadership is consistently irrational and is basing their decisions on traditions and perhaps some local religion/mythology/morals. They do NOT do math.

Really, this explanation reduces my appreciation for this anime a lot, but at least it's better than thinking that they are all a bunch of idiots. Perhaps being scavengers they completely lost scientific method and their apparent high-tech is only that, result of scavenging and some carefully preserved bits of old knowledge. I totally expect their top mechanics to be some sort of sect with dark rituals mixed in :-D

whatever123456 said:


He helped them before without gaining anything in return, so there was no reason not to ask him if he would help you again and accept this help.
I was not talking about other purposes than killing and destroying.
I was talking about the stupid distinction between either using him for complete annihilation of the enemy or not using his abilites at all.
Use him to destroy their weapons or just to wipe out a few of their ships to make them surrender.
Relying on a stranger is obviously never the preferred option, but they didn't really have other options that didn't involve losing or sacrificing most of your fleet and people.

AnimageNeby said:


Lol. Ah, k'ay; my fault!!

Indeed, if you take that the people of Gargantia are inherent idiots that can't make logical reasonings, it does fit, of course. ;-)

But frankly, I prefer my stance, seen that in-story, they did not indicate they were such. Namely, that it's a badly implemented meta-goal of the creators to give a 'peaceful message' to their public.

whatever123456 said:
Winning while wasting your own forces and ressources is worse than winning without wasting those.

whatever123456 said:

They knew the pirates had 30 heavily armed ships against their own 15. This alone would make it obvious that there was no way to win without heavy losses or win at all to any leader with an ounce of common sense.
That's exactly what I'm criticising. They shouldn't make bad decisions for the people they are supposed to lead because they are scared. They should have been able to come up with a much better plan in the time they had.

whatever123456 said:

The ship was hit by a missile and disappeared in a fiery explosion. I think it's pretty clear that this ship is beyond the point of repair.
You also ignored my point about it still being a waste of ressources because the supplies for repairing something don't magically appear out of thin air.

whatever123456 said:

That's your opinion. In my opinion, ending the conflict without several of your own people dying would be something the citizens of gargantua would have been equally and probably even more thankful for.

whatever123456 said:

I still think that chamber, who managed to learn the human language after hearing a few sentences spoken, would be able to understand the way their coordination works.

AnimageNeby said:
Namely, that it's a badly implemented meta-goal of the creators to give a 'peaceful message' to their public.

j0x said:


even the higher ups hesitated to ask him for help because they simply cannot trust him yet, and also the commander is ready to sacrifice himself for the fleet on the last part of the episode thats their option

again you are assuming that they got the viewers knowledge of what Ledo and Chamber is capable of, they only saw Ledo and Chamber as mass destroyer even Bellows saw it that way and not saw how efficient they can kill, and they care about their morals more (like karma/golden rule/live and let live) since they lack the military expertise that you are pointing out

Takana_no_Hana said:


Nope, he helped them before cause he wanted to receive helps and shelter. Nevertheless, his help has put them to a dangerous situation which they were facing recently and he has to offer his unconditioned assist this time.
There was evidence for his complete annihilation. There was NO evidences whether or not he can only be used for destroying only a few ships. As I said, he's a stranger. There's no guarantee that he can help them in the future without demanding anything in return, and what if Gargantia's fleet cannot afford his requirements, or perhaps he meets another fleet and they offer better demands/conditions, he can easily turn his back and destroy the whole fleet like the pirates. That's another reason for them to keep minimal contacts or not even use his military power.

Furthermore, in the near future, what if Ledo completes his objective and leaves the fleet? There will be NO ONE to protect the fleet, wars and bloodshed will lead to more wars, especially when they involve with villains, pirates.

Furthermore, in the near future, what if Ledo completes his objective and leaves the fleet? There will be NO ONE to protect the fleet, wars and bloodshed will lead to more wars, especially when they involve with villains, pirates.

AnimageNeby said:


Lol. Ah, k'ay; my fault!!

Indeed, if you take that the people of Gargantia are inherent idiots that can't make logical reasonings, it does fit, of course. ;-)

But frankly, I prefer my stance, seen that in-story, they did not indicate they were such. Namely, that it's a badly implemented meta-goal of the creators to give a 'peaceful message' to their public.

As I pointed out, the higher ups sacrificing their people because they lack trust makes them incompetent. They don't have another option. They need his help.
As I also pointed out before, they should have just asked him specifically about his abilities like any sane commander would have done in this situation.

symbv said:

Winning without achieving full trust is worse. The forces and resources are not wasted, but a price to pay to get the better outcome.

symbv said:

Well, even knowing the number of ships the pirates have, we still saw some in the leader's meeting arguing for not letting Ledo to come into the picture, right? This is how people think of Ledo - that he cannot be trusted and his power must not be seen again. And I can totally imagine that there are a lot of people in the fleet who think the same.

symbv said:

As if people of the fleet do not want to fight. If they do not trust Ledo, they of course have to fight (and take casualty).

symbv said:

This is pure speculation here. Understanding language requires different technology of understanding coordination. Besides, as I said by luring the pirates into firing at it, Chamber effectively helps the coordination without even trying to understand what coordination system Gargantia is using.

j0x said:


you are really trying to be perfectionist here, they simply did not trust him dude thats what matters, if you argue Bellows and others saw the destroying capability and the possible efficiency of Ledo and Chamber not killing the pirates and just destroy the vessels then thats not how Bellows saw it, Bellows is the trusted person by the higher ups so her view of Ledo is what more important than the view of Ledo

the Gargantia crew does not have the benefit of the viewers (you/me) knowledge about Ledo and Chamber

whatever123456 said:


He didn't negotiate before or wanted anything in return, so this claim is invalid.
Why are you going on about how there was no evidence what he was capable of doing?
That's why they should have asked him for more information.

As I said before, they didn't have any alternatives.
They had to either trust Ledo or accept a practically guaranteed defeat (in which case they would have been better of by just surrendering).



I already talked about this in a previous post, using Ledo in this battle is always beneficial, even if he would have left after.

Devising a strategy without even knowing anything about their potentially biggest weapon shows their incompetence.

whatever123456 said:


This doesn't have anything to do with their view of Ledo or trusting him.
They don't have any alternatives. How often to I have to repeat this?
Imagine somebody forcing you to eat a pill.
You know that one pill will kill you in the most painful way possible.
You don't know what the other pill will do.
You still have to take the second pill because the alternative is not a viable cource of action.

j0x said:


thats a bad example because they do not have the full knowledge of what Ledo and Chamber is, they are scared of Ledo and Chamber more than they trust him of solving their problem, remember other people have stated already the fact that Ledo and Chamber are the ones that made that dire situation against the pirates, so they only use Ledo and Chamber on a minimum assignment since that is all they can eat or trust about Ledo and Chamber

MorningGlory said:
There is a big difference between the first few minute and the last few minute in these episode.
At first, I saw Ledo massacre those pirate and people of Gargantia did not cheer for him.
Later on, I saw Ledo defeat(not kill) the captain of the pirate and the people of Gargantia show the opposite reaction.
That pretty much sum up this episode xD

Takana_no_Hana said:


Watch it again, it was explained in episode 1 or 2 as his intention, when Amy asked for help.
In war, you hardly want to ask a stranger for information regarding your strategy.


Did you realize the fact that this mass destructive weapon was just arrived for several days? Of course I will not use a bomb if I dont even know how it works. Saying words along is not considered as information but you have to provide some evidence/references as well. Furthermore, their potentially biggest weapon has shown a mass destruction capabilities, do you need to re-check it again? I don't think so.

And sometimes you have to fight even the chance of winning is low, it's called pride.

Not every pirate is alone, they might have companions, other pirates/friends/family. And if they were killed, their relatives would want to revenge. This is what Gargantia's fleet doesn't want.

whatever123456 said:


But that is exactly what my example showcased.
Read it again.
Ledo and Chamber are the pill with unknown effects.
Getting raped by the pirates if the first pill.

whatever123456 said:

Several days, even several minutes would have been enough to get any information you need to come up with a better strategy.
Again, there is no viable alternative.

Fighting a battle where you have close to zero chance of winning is not pride, it's stupidity, especially if your first objective is surviving.

Your last point shows exactly what the contradiction here is.
They killed pirates. They used guns and artillery against them, so the argument that they don't want to kill pirates because they could seek revenge is invalid.

whatever123456 said:
You are still basing your argument on the assumption that they somehow wouldn't trust him if he had helped them save more of their lives.

whatever123456 said:

And this is, as I already mentioned in atleast five different posts, proof of their incompetence.
Any leader should have realized that this was going to be an unwinnable battle and that they have to either surrender or trust the stranger.
A leader should make his decisions based on what is most beneficial for the ones he leads, and trying to fight a larger fleet with superior firepower head on was completely suicidal.

whatever123456 said:

I'm pretty sure people don't want to die if it can be avoided. The leader should have surrendered his fleet in this situation, since the battle wasn't winnable without Ledo's intervention.

whatever123456 said:

I said that this is speculation hence why I said I could maybe agree with you on this.
Even if it's speculation, I can't see any reason why chamber shouldn't be able to convert her way of locating enemies to the system the humans on earth use.
Just input a few different locations to compare with chamber's coordinates and it should have enough information to convert any new set of coordinates.

j0x said:


its still a bad example considering they simply lack the full knowledge about Ledo and Chamber but that does not mean they are what you call unknown effects, they got the knowledge that Ledo and Chamber are mass killers at that time until the last part of the episode change their minds

whatever123456 said:

Fighting a battle where you have close to zero chance of winning is not pride, it's stupidity, especially if your first objective is surviving.

Takana_no_Hana said:

This is your assumption.


I believe it was Ledo's fault in the first place for putting Gargantia's fleet in such a condition. This is the reason why they agreed on his help.



As someone has already said this point in the thread, I believed it was sym/jox.
Using powder and guns is different from a nuclear missle/mass destructive weapons. They just want to defend themselves against pirates, not annihilating every-single-one of the pirates.

This is why we don't use nuclear bomb in morden war time. US didn't use nuclear bomb in Irag.

It's a perfect example. It's not supposed to be a 1:1 analogy, it's supposed to show you that there are situations where you don't have any alternatives.

symbv said:
That is based on the assumption that everyone trusts Ledo's intention and Chamber's capability wholeheartedly, which is hardly the case before the battle in this episode. As I said, I think the episode is there more to resolve the internal division within the fleet about what to do with Ledo and Chamber. If there is a firm mutual understanding between the fleet and Ledo/Chamber, I would say letting Chamber/Ledo do everything would be the best.

j0x said:


no because you are overimplifying things now, Ledo and Chamber are not unknown effects, the Gargantia Crew know Ledo and Chamber as mass killers