NthDegree said: tl;dr: I've never criticized depicting slavery, only depicting it as positive for the majority of the time. You cite the EXP share as one of the benefits of the slave seal in the series. But to extrapolate that into normalizing slavery in real life is laughable as there is no such mechanic in real life. Also, you did not refute Xederpl's refutation entirely as he criticized you for claiming that the show promotes slavery and "misogyny". For someone who has the propensity to point your fingers at others for "completely missing the point", you are guilty of what you claimed others of doing. |
| This thread is a complete disaster. |
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VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: tl;dr: I've never criticized depicting slavery, only depicting it as positive for the majority of the time. You cite the EXP share as one of the benefits of the slave seal in the series. But to extrapolate that into normalizing slavery in real life is laughable as there is no such mechanic in real life. Also, you did not refute Xederpl's refutation entirely as he criticized you for claiming that the show promotes slavery and "misogyny". For someone who has the propensity to point your fingers at others for "completely missing the point", you are guilty of what you claimed others of doing. I don't remember saying anything about real life in this thread. I simply said it promotes it, not its effects on real life. If you want to comment on that, go to the right thread. So you accept that it promotes slavery then? Wonderful. I like to take questions one at the time, but if you already agree on slavery, sure, we can talk about misogyny next. |
NthDegree said: I don't remember saying anything about real life in this thread. I simply said it promotes it, not its effects on real life. If you want to comment on that, go to the right thread. You cited the EXP share as one of the reasons how the series is promoting slavery. But how can EXP share promote slavery if such a mechanic doesn't actually exist in real life? So you accept that it promotes slavery then? Wonderful. You are starting to lose it, my friend. Hastily trying to stuff words in another's mouth isn't the way to go. Also, if you actually read my other responses to you, you should know that the answer to that question is the direct opposite. But hey, you like to take the expedient way by going the character assassination route. If you can't refute the person's arguments directly, try to make that person look bad instead. I like to take questions one at the time, but if you already agree on slavery, sure, we can talk about misogyny next. That is if you actually prove the so-called "misogyny" exists and you still have not adequately refuted my points previously. Asking a question with an unproven assumption is what we call a Complex Question Fallacy. |
NthDegree said: @NthDegree Why are you talking about real life when I'm not talking about it? I simply said it depicts slavery positively for the majority of time, ie. promotes it. But I haven't mentioned anything about it affecting real life here. If the author is promoting slavery, then he/she is saying that slavery is okay to practice. That applies to real life. How can one promote slavery to a fictional society if that society doesn't exist? Just because you didn't mention real life, it doesn't mean real life is not involved. In addition, to depict means to "to represent by or as if by a picture". To promote means to "to help bring (something, such as an enterprise) into being" or "to contribute to the growth or prosperity of". Overall, your claim is a non sequitor argument. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: @NthDegree Why are you talking about real life when I'm not talking about it? I simply said it depicts slavery positively for the majority of time, ie. promotes it. But I haven't mentioned anything about it affecting real life here. If the author is promoting slavery, then he/she is saying that slavery is okay to practice. That applies to real life. How can one promote slavery to a fictional society if that society doesn't exist? Just because you didn't mention real life, it doesn't mean real life is not involved. In addition, to depict means to "to represent by or as if by a picture". To promote means to "to help bring (something, such as an enterprise) into being" or "to contribute to the growth or prosperity of". Overall, your claim is a non sequitor argument. Well, since you seem to want to bring that up so badly... NthDegree said: The fact something is outlawed doesn't mean it has disappeared completely. For example human trafficking is still a big problem and modern slavery also does exist. For example if you have heard of the news about how Qatar is holding soccer world cup, you'd know that the infrastructure for it is being built by what has been described as slavery. Basically they import workers from other countries and their boss confiscates their passport, so they won't be able to leave unless they work in bad conditions. People have literally died there. However, a lot of countries care more about soccer than slavery, which is why the tournament still gets held. Here's an article for more info: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/world-cup-2022-qatars-workers-slaves-building-mausoleums-stadiums-modern-slavery-kafala-a7980816.html So if we express positive depictions of slavery in media, people may feel less inclined to stand up against this type of thing. Or they may start thinking that as long as there is no overt physical abuse it's fine to have slaves, similar to Naofumi. However, the reality is that regardless of whether abuse exists, a slave's freedom is taken away, which in itself is unethical. That's my stance on it. |
NthDegree said: That's my stance on it. People may feel less inclined. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be inclined. And no, Naofumi did not think it's okay to have slaves because he doesn't physical abuse them. In fact, I already pointed out that Raphtalia willingly had the slave seal re-applied and how the seal adopted a different meaning akin to how the letter "A" from Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" changed its meaning throughout the course of the novel. I should also point out that the reason why he bought a slave in the first place was because of a mechanic that doesn't exist in real life. There is no such thing as a slave seal that can automatically kill or shock a slave if that slave betrays or lies to his/her master. See what I mean when I said you have to pay attention to my previous responses? When you are hell bent on repeating the same assertions over and over again, you easily miss the various counterarguments that have already been made. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: That's my stance on it. People may feel less inclined. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be inclined. And no, Naofumi did not think it's okay to have slaves because he doesn't physical abuse them. In fact, I already pointed out that Raphtalia willingly had the slave seal re-applied and how the seal adopted a different meaning akin to how the letter "A" from Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" changed its meaning throughout the course of the novel. I should also point out that the reason why he bought a slave in the first place was because of a mechanic that doesn't exist in real life. There is no such thing as a slave seal that can automatically kill or shock a slave if that slave betrays or lies to his/her master. See what I mean when I said you have to pay attention to my previous responses? When you are hell bent on repeating the same assertions over and over again, you easily miss the various counterarguments that have already been made. Does it matter whether it's a gun or a sword pointing at a slave's back? Why does it matter what manner of violence (in this case, a spell) the slave is threatened with? I would say no. Regardless of what the MC's in-universe motivation for it may be, you can't deny that his use of it is depicted positively. |
NthDegree said: Does it matter whether it's a gun or a sword pointing at a slave's back? Why does it matter what manner of violence (in this case, a spell) the slave is threatened with? I would say no. Ah, the old ignore the other part of the argument tactic... Yes, let's forget the part where Raphatalia had the option to not have the seal re-applied, but she did so under her own agency... Regardless of what the MC's in-universe motivation for it may be, you can't deny that his use of it is depicted positively. So readers will just start asking their governments to legalize slavery? |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Does it matter whether it's a gun or a sword pointing at a slave's back? Why does it matter what manner of violence (in this case, a spell) the slave is threatened with? I would say no. Ah, the old ignore the other part of the argument tactic... Yes, let's forget the part where Raphatalia had the option to not have the seal re-applied, but she did so under her own agency... Author can make Raphitalia say anything. Essentially the implication here is that slavery isn't bad because the slave agreed with the contract herself. If you refer to my example on modern slavery, you can see quite many slaves that signed their contracts voluntarily because of their circumstances. That still doesn't change the fact that the slave is robbed of their freedom. VeryLTTP said: Regardless of what the MC's in-universe motivation for it may be, you can't deny that his use of it is depicted positively. So readers will just start asking their governments to legalize slavery? Did you not read my earlier post? Let me remind you. NthDegree said: So if we express positive depictions of slavery in media, people may feel less inclined to stand up against this type of thing. Or they may start thinking that as long as there is no overt physical abuse it's fine to have slaves, similar to Naofumi. However, the reality is that regardless of whether abuse exists, a slave's freedom is taken away, which in itself is unethical. |
NthDegree said: Author can make Raphitalia say anything. Essentially the implication here is that slavery isn't bad because the slave agreed with the contract herself. No, the implication is that the slave seal is less of a symbol of slavery to Raphtalia and more of a symbol of her being the MC's metaphorical sword. That's what we call symbolism. Are you intentionally ignoring the parallel to "The Scarlet Letter"? If you refer to my example on modern slavery, you can see quite many slaves that signed their contracts voluntarily because of their circumstances. That still doesn't change the fact that the slave is robbed of their freedom. The slaves from your examples are robbed of their freedom. That does not necessarily apply to Raphtalia in the show. Did you not read my earlier post? I even bolded that bit to you before. Let me remind you. Did you not read my earlier post about the parallel between the slave seal and "The Scarlet Letter"? Did you not read my earlier post about the difference between depiction and promotion? Not directly addressing my refutation and proceeding to repeat the same assertions do not make your case stronger. You are effectively making an ad infinitum argument. |
NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP I'm ignoring it because I haven't read it. It is not required reading where I live. You don't need to read the entire novel nor did I ask you to do that. Citing that as a reason to ignore that part of my argument is a rather poor excuse. However, if your argument holds any water you can also explain it yourself without relying on historical fiction. I already did multiple times across multiple threads. It is not my job to make sure that you are paying attention. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP I'm ignoring it because I haven't read it. It is not required reading where I live. You don't need to read the entire novel nor did I ask you to do that. Citing that as a reason to ignore that part of my argument is a rather poor excuse. However, if your argument holds any water you can also explain it yourself without relying on historical fiction. I already did multiple times across multiple threads. It is not my job to make sure that you are paying attention. Let me be clear then. The first time I even heard of the book was when you mentioned it. I have no idea what it's about. It may be a classic in America, but I'm not American. So all it does is make your argument more confusing. From my perspective your inability to explain it is because your argument has holes. |
| Lmao who cares if it has slavery. This is not America its Japan. Go get butthurt about your american cartoons. |
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NthDegree said: Let me be clear then. The first time I even heard of the book was when you mentioned it. I have no idea what it's about. It may be a classic in America, but I'm not American. So all it does it make your argument more confusing. Because obviously, you can't just check the synopsis online... From my perspective your inability to explain it is because your argument has holes. Ah, here we go with conflating "refusal" with "inability". You definitely like to assume two words with different definitions mean the same thing, eh? From my perspective, this is just another poor excuse because I already referenced the novel multiple times. Like I said, it is not my job to keep track of your attention span. I mentioned what the letter "A" stood for at the beginning of "The Scarlet Letter" and what it changed to at the end of the novel. I explained how the slave seal on Raphtalia changed its meaning similarly. EDIT: Aaaaaand yep, I did explain it to you already before. You have absolutely zero excuse. |
VeryLTTPJan 13, 2019 11:53 AM
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Let me be clear then. The first time I even heard of the book was when you mentioned it. I have no idea what it's about. It may be a classic in America, but I'm not American. So all it does it make your argument more confusing. Because obviously, you can't just check the synopsis online... From my perspective your inability to explain it is because your argument has holes. Ah, here we go with conflating "refusal" with "inability". You definitely like to assume two words with different definitions mean the same thing, eh? From my perspective, this is just another poor excuse because I already referenced the novel multiple times. Like I said, it is not my job to keep track of your attention span. I mentioned what the letter "A" stood for at the beginning of "The Scarlet Letter" and what it changed to at the end of the novel. I explained how the slave seal on Raphtalia changed its meaning similarly. EDIT: Aaaaaand yep, I did explain it to you already before. You have absolutely zero excuse. Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. Not to mention your argument only covers Raphitalia and not Firo. Didn't that one clumsy girl also get slave'd for the exp later? That too. Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them? |
NthDegree said: Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. Ah, changing the rules when they're not working out for you. Too bad because the symbolism is related. I already pointed out at the similarities. Just because you can ignore my argument, it doesn't mean that the argument is invalid. It just show that you are arguing in bad faith. Not to mention your argument only covers Raphitalia and not Firo. Didn't that one clumsy girl also get slave'd for the exp later? That too. Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them? Complex Question Fallacy. You love using that tactic, don't you? |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. Ah, changing the rules when they're not working out for you. Too bad because the symbolism is related. I already pointed out at the similarities. Just because you can ignore my argument, it doesn't mean that the argument is invalid. It just show that you are arguing in bad faith. Not to mention your argument only covers Raphitalia and not Firo. Didn't that one clumsy girl also get slave'd for the exp later? That too. Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them? Complex Question Fallacy. You love using that tactic, don't you? I never said your argument was invalid. I simply said I couldn't answer to it. At this point I'm fairly certain you do not know what a Complex Question Fallacy actually is. Let me teach you. A real CQF would be if I said something like 'why is the slave mark a symbol of empowerment for Firo', because it incorrectly assumes that it indeed is a symbol of empowerment for her. However, 'do you think the slave mark is a symbol of empowerment for Firo?' is not a CQF, because it is the assumption that is the target of the question. I really wish you actually understood your terms before starting to throw them around. |
NthDegree said: I never said your argument was invalid. I simply said I couldn't answer to it. This is what you said: Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. You basically said that my argument has to be supported without referencing "The Scarlet Letter". Again, you're arguing in bad faith. At this point I'm fairly certain you do not know what a Complex Question Fallacy actually is. Let me teach you. A real CQF would be if I said something like 'why is the slave mark a symbol of empowerment for Firo', because it incorrectly assumes that it indeed is a symbol of empowerment for her. However, 'do you think the slave mark is a symbol of empowerment for Firo?' is not a CQF, because it is the assumption that is the target of the question. "Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them?" is a Complex Question Fallacy because you asked a question assuming that I argued that claim already. I did not nor have I brought up Firo. I really wish you actually understood your terms before starting to throw them around. This applies more to you than to me. Perhaps, you need to present your points differently so you can be taken more seriously... |
| So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... |
| Gib [img] plz |
tery999 said: So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... Mob Psycho does not promote pursuing psychic powers, it's pretty much against that whole idea. Mob wants to better himself without shortcuts, that's why he joined the Body Improvement Club instead of the Telepathy Club. Psychics who use their powers in the world are seen as pathetic, the whole Claw thing comes to mind. Those other concepts you said don't work either, because you see, slavery actually occurred, it stills occurs, no one gets transported to magical worlds, no one can become some magical ninja or has been a magical ninja, horror anime don't even promote murder since murder is still seen as wrong. I don't understand how you can correlate all those things to slavery, they are vastly different concepts. Also using petty insults doesn't make you look cool or anything, to be honest, it looks pathetic. |
  Don't worry about being lame now, you were always lame anyway!  |
BackstageMage said: tery999 said: So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... Mob Psycho does not promote pursuing psychic powers, it's pretty much against that whole idea. Mob wants to better himself without shortcuts, that's why he joined the Body Improvement Club instead of the Telepathy Club. Psychics who use their powers in the world are seen as pathetic, the whole Claw thing comes to mind. Those other concepts you said don't work either, because you see, slavery actually occurred, it stills occurs, no one gets transported to magical worlds, no one can become some magical ninja or has been a magical ninja, horror anime don't even promote murder since murder is still seen as wrong. I don't understand how you can correlate all those things to slavery, they are vastly different concepts. Also using petty insults doesn't make you look cool or anything, to be honest, it looks pathetic. Uh... that's totally sarcasm smh r/woooosh |
| 「ボクは…確かに現実に絶望している。だけど、自分には絶望していない!! 今がつまらないか…楽しいのか…平凡なのか…決めているのは現実じゃない。決めるのはボクだ!!ボクが望めば不可能はない!!」-桂木桂馬 "True, I've given up on the real world. However, I haven't given up on myself!! The world doesn't get to decide whether my life is boring, fun, or ordinary because that's my decision to make!! As long as I have the will, nothing is impossible!!" -Katsuragi Keima |
| If forums like this didn't exist, no one would even see this as controversial. I've watched several anime without exchanging opinions with others, and I'm better off for it. I don't watch anime to judge it or put a label on it. Same goes for movies, TV shows, and video games. It's always been a means of killing time, regardless of what the stories depict. Why choose watching with a "critical eye" over just being entertained? Watch the news or read a history book if you want to see real depictions of wrongdoing. Oh, wait. It's actually raising awareness. Artists get their inspiration from real life events. Artist don't pursue careers in the entertainment industry just to depict outdated ideologies. They're making their setting as realistic as possible; and of course, making an honest living out of story telling. None of that speaks "controversy" to me. As for how I'd describe slavery in the series, it's a system the MC was able to take advantage of due to the game mechanics he has. The mechanics are limited to the heroes alone. The kingdom offering party members was an alternative to these mechanics. Sadly, our MC lost his right to have party members; not that he had any to begin with. So, he had to resort to using a slave to gain EXP. Taking away freedom isn't being promoted in any way. How Not to Summon a Demon Lord did the same. The slaves are always treated humanely, as most MCs come from modern day society. Would've been worse if one of the heroes saw it as acceptable. The MC doesn't see it as acceptable himself. It's a means of avoiding betrayal. Calling this arbitrary on the author's part is presumptuous. It moves the story forward, given the MC's predicament. Concerning misogyny, it's not limited to females for the MC. You mustn't forget his prejudice developed from a trauma caused by betrayal. Technically, the whole kingdom betrayed the MC; including the other heroes. Relevant females in this series are all given "agency", as NthDegree put it. If you've forgotten, every able character is working towards the same goal. They must all defend their home against the waves. Gender and agency plays no role here. The status quo changes with every new character introduced with fighting capability. How their introduce hardly matters. No one falls into this misogynistic ideology critics are propagating except the villain of the story. The slaves under the MC aren't all female. Females having more pull than males isn't enough reason for the MC to hate females either. All the edginess depicted in the series comes from one thing: "one man against the world." Goblin Slayer was similar: "one man against goblin hordes." Both eventually accepted help, regardless of gender. Both are also stories of revenge. Not everyone is a fan of revenge stories since fantasies are usually about adventure... Oh, seems I have nothing else to complain about. I'll just answer the questions presented by @NthDegree: 1. "Do you agree that the MC benefits from slavery in the story?" YES and NO. "YES" because MC has a viable means of gaining EXP. The "NO" response is spoiler. What it boils down to is responsibility. Every ideology has pros and cons. Even slavery. Free food at the price of labor is the same as labor paying for said food. 2. "Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that it was in the MC's best interest to participate in slavery?" YES. Take out slavery and what do you have: A lone hero without a means of effectively leveling up. Guess what's included in this story setup: THE SHIELD. If your going to question the setup of slavery, you may as well question the setup of a defensive weapon being useful. Guess I should ask the questions now: (two can play at this game) 1. Do you agree the MC wouldn't have participate in slavery if he had a viable means of gaining EXP? 2. Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that the MC would only accomplish great feats when he relied on others? |
ReloadJan 13, 2019 11:54 PM
| Give me at least 5 minutes to modify my post before quoting me. (refreshing page advised) |
Reload said: 1. "Do you agree that the MC benefits from slavery in the story?" YES and NO. "YES" because MC has a viable means of gaining EXP. The "NO" response is spoiler. What it boils down to is responsibility. Every ideology has pros and cons. Even slavery. Free food at the price of labor is the same as labor paying for said food. Woaaaaah ! That's so great to read something stupid like that. The amazing thing in this thread on a psychological level is one can notice that many people aren't concerned by slavery. Lucky us. That's why they/we don't bother. So few here ever thought about ... being the slave (even less one being sexually abused or tortured). They can't relate, it's way beyond their empathy level. So great ! Lucky us, we will never experience being a slave, so ... a hero (yeah, the guy we are supposed to relate to) being a beneficiary of slavery is no big deal, of course. 2. "Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that it was in the MC's best interest to participate in slavery?" YES. Take out slavery and what do you have: A lone hero without a means of effectively leveling up. Guess what's included in this story setup: THE SHIELD. If your going to question the setup of slavery, you may as well question the setup of a defensive weapon being useful. The thing is, at one point, the slave could become just a party member, no problem, except the author doesn't want it and again he does make it "obligatory" to keep the slave status for the female. Again, I think it has more to do with the fetish of the devoted female than the author being pro-slavery, but it is nonetheless a lame plot-device. |
Ysad_ZiwezhanJan 14, 2019 12:19 AM
Shocku_ said: CAN WE PLEASE STOP?! the thought of an upcoming controversy that might happen didnt even cross my mind until - OF COURSE - someone had to bring it up.... DONT LIKE IT DONT WATCH IT! it is really that easy... could we as a species pls focus on real problems? This is the best post that I’ve seen in a long time. |
| ▾ Check Out My Original Series ▾ ▾ Check Out My Blog ▾ |
Reload said: If forums like this didn't exist, no one would even see this as controversial. I've watched several anime without exchanging opinions with others, and I'm better off for it. I don't watch anime to judge it or put a label on it. Same goes for movies, TV shows, and video games. It's always been a means of killing time, regardless of what the stories depict. Why choose watching with a "critical eye" over just being entertained? Watch the news or read a history book if you want to see real depictions of wrongdoing. Oh, wait. It's actually raising awareness. Artists get their inspiration from real life events. Artist don't pursue careers in the entertainment industry just to depict outdated ideologies. They're making their setting as realistic as possible; and of course, making an honest living out of story telling. None of that speaks "controversy" to me. As for how I'd describe slavery in the series, it's a system the MC was able to take advantage of due to the game mechanics he has. The mechanics are limited to the heroes alone. The kingdom offering party members was an alternative to these mechanics. Sadly, our MC lost his right to have party members; not that he had any to begin with. So, he had to resort to using a slave to gain EXP. Taking away freedom isn't being promoted in any way. How Not to Summon a Demon Lord did the same. The slaves are always treated humanely, as most MCs come from modern day society. Would've been worse if one of the heroes saw it as acceptable. The MC doesn't see it as acceptable himself. It's a means of avoiding betrayal. Calling this arbitrary on the author's part is presumptuous. It moves the story forward, given the MC's predicament. Concerning misogyny, it's not limited to females for the MC. You mustn't forget his prejudice developed from a trauma caused by betrayal. Technically, the whole kingdom betrayed the MC; including the other heroes. Relevant females in this series are all given "agency", as NthDegree put it. If you've forgotten, every able character is working towards the same goal. They must all defend their home against the waves. Gender and agency plays no role here. The status quo changes with every new character introduced with fighting capability. How their introduce hardly matters. No one falls into this misogynistic ideology critics are propagating except the villain of the story. The slaves under the MC aren't all female. Females having more pull than males isn't enough reason for the MC to hate females either. All the edginess depicted in the series comes from one thing: "one man against the world." Goblin Slayer was similar: "one man against goblin hordes." Both eventually accepted help, regardless of gender. Both are also stories of revenge. Not everyone is a fan of revenge stories since fantasies are usually about adventure... Oh, seems I have nothing else to complain about. I'll just answer the questions presented by @NthDegree: 1. "Do you agree that the MC benefits from slavery in the story?" YES and NO. "YES" because MC has a viable means of gaining EXP. The "NO" response is spoiler. What it boils down to is responsibility. Every ideology has pros and cons. Even slavery. Free food at the price of labor is the same as labor paying for said food. 2. "Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that it was in the MC's best interest to participate in slavery?" YES. Take out slavery and what do you have: A lone hero without a means of effectively leveling up. Guess what's included in this story setup: THE SHIELD. If your going to question the setup of slavery, you may as well question the setup of a defensive weapon being useful. Guess I should ask the questions now: (two can play at this game) 1. Do you agree the MC wouldn't have participate in slavery if he had a viable means of gaining EXP? 2. Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that the MC would only accomplish great feats when he relied on others? 1. the MC will eventually enslave shitton of wahmen , just wait xD 2. via enslaving shitton of wahmen in the process . well.. fair enough but , I think you (the author) should see a doctor . you have hella serious issues there , sir . The MC is so frkn Salty due to this false rape accusation mumbo jumbo to the point he chooses to blame all wahmen in the world by enslaving every last one of em on sight lol |
Lab_Rat_0978Jan 14, 2019 12:29 AM
Ysad_Ziwezhan said: Reload said: 1. "Do you agree that the MC benefits from slavery in the story?" YES and NO. "YES" because MC has a viable means of gaining EXP. The "NO" response is spoiler. What it boils down to is responsibility. Every ideology has pros and cons. Even slavery. Free food at the price of labor is the same as labor paying for said food. Woaaaaah ! That's so great to read something stupid like that. The amazing thing in this thread on a psychological level is one can notice that many people aren't concerned by slavery. Lucky us. That's why they/we don't bother. So few here ever thought about ... being the slave (even less one being sexually abused or tortured). They can't relate, it's way beyond their empathy level. So great ! Lucky us, we will never experience being a slave, so ... a hero (yeah, the guy we are supposed to relate to) being a beneficiary of slavery is no big deal, of course. 2. "Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that it was in the MC's best interest to participate in slavery?" YES. Take out slavery and what do you have: A lone hero without a means of effectively leveling up. Guess what's included in this story setup: THE SHIELD. If your going to question the setup of slavery, you may as well question the setup of a defensive weapon being useful. The thing is, at one point, the slave could become just a party member, no problem, except the author doesn't want it and again he does make it "obligatory" to keep the slave status for the female. Again, I think it has more to do with the fetish of the devoted female than the author being pro-slavery, but it is nonetheless a lame plot-device. Sorry if this show is too much for your delicate snowflake brain to handle. This is a medieval society, you idiot, do you thing slavery only happened on white cultures and during the colonization of the americas period? Slavery still happens to this day, if you are soo disgusted by the idea of slavery, what are you doing to stop ACTUAL slavery? nothing, soo take your pathetic oppinion and go watch your yaoi or warever a freak like you watches. |
| Would people please stop moving the goalposts all the time? I have seen quite a few discussions about the slavery aspect that turned out like this: Person A: "The author promotes slavery! The fact that the protagonist is willingly making use of slavery is proof!" Person B: "No, the author doesn't and no, that's not proof." Person A: "How is not? He literally buys a slave!" Person B: "Yes, but it's shown as a neccessary evil. On top of being a somewhat mentally unstable person with trust issues at that moment (i.e. not considered a moral compass in the first place), Naofumi was also forced into a situation where he could only choose between buying a slave or dying after being summoned to the wave at a low level with no way to attack, i.e. a dilemma. Nowhere is slavery presented as an inherently 'good' thing." Person A: "Bu--- But that's only because the author wrote it that way! The author could have written the same thing but with different circumstances than slavery![...]" What Person A does here is moving the goalposts. It used to be about "promoting slavery" and was being argued based on the actual content of the series. But now that Person A got backed into a corner (metaphorically speaking, of course), Person A decided to move the goalposts from "promoting slavery" to something like "using slavery in a fictional work is untasteful!" by using meta arguments that involve baseless assumptions about the author's intentions and personal beliefs. At that point it's already safe to say that it was over and that Person B should not waste any further time arguing about the mental gymnastics that Person A is coming up with from that point forward. In short: If you want to critisize the moral aspects of a fictional work, then you must first accept the entire premise as is. The moment you consider cherry picking what parts of the premise "count" and which do not, you are essentially arguing about fanfiction rather than the actual work. And if you need to resort to meta-arguments, then you have likely already lost, because at that point you have already given up on proving your initial claim through in-universe proof. |
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Tougen said: Ysad_Ziwezhan said: Woaaaaah ! That's so great to read something stupid like that. The amazing thing in this thread on a psychological level is one can notice that many people aren't concerned by slavery. Lucky us. That's why they/we don't bother. So few here ever thought about ... being the slave (even less one being sexually abused or tortured). They can't relate, it's way beyond their empathy level. So great ! Lucky us, we will never experience being a slave, so ... a hero (yeah, the guy we are supposed to relate to) being a beneficiary of slavery is no big deal, of course. The thing is, at one point, the slave could become just a party member, no problem, except the author doesn't want it and again he does make it "obligatory" to keep the slave status for the female. Again, I think it has more to do with the fetish of the devoted female than the author being pro-slavery, but it is nonetheless a lame plot-device. Sorry if this show is too much for your delicate snowflake brain to handle. This is a medieval society, you idiot, do you thing slavery only happened on white cultures and during the colonization of the americas period? Slavery still happens to this day, if you are soo disgusted by the idea of slavery, what are you doing to stop ACTUAL slavery? nothing, soo take your pathetic oppinion and go watch your yaoi or warever a freak like you watches. I will quote myself :) Woaaaaah ! That's so great to read something stupid like that. I think your answer is not on point with what I wrote but it's ok. I understand that it was probably already "too much (text) to handle" ;) Don't give up though! |
Grey-Zone said: In short: If you want to critisize the moral aspects of a fictional work, then you must first accept the entire premise as is. The moment you consider cherry picking what parts of the premise "count" and which do not, you are essentially arguing about fanfiction rather than the actual work. And if you need to resort to meta-arguments, then you have likely already lost, because at that point you have already given up on proving your initial claim through in-universe proof. Is the presentation of slavery as a "necessary evil" for the hero (like back then in some parts of the real world) a good thing as premise for the " moral aspects of a fictional work" ? like : "Yes slavery is shit but ... but but but ... and if if if ... then it's still doable" kind of logic. and with the "do or die" simplistic logic you can go very very far indeed. |
Grey-Zone said: Would people please stop moving the goalposts all the time? I have seen quite a few discussions about the slavery aspect that turned out like this: Person A: "The author promotes slavery! The fact that the protagonist is willingly making use of slavery is proof!" Person B: "No, the author doesn't and no, that's not proof." Person A: "How is not? He literally buys a slave!" Person B: "Yes, but it's shown as a neccessary evil. On top of being a somewhat mentally unstable person with trust issues at that moment (i.e. not considered a moral compass in the first place), Naofumi was also forced into a situation where he could only choose between buying a slave or dying after being summoned to the wave at a low level with no way to attack, i.e. a dilemma. Nowhere is slavery presented as an inherently 'good' thing." Person A: "Bu--- But that's only because the author wrote it that way! The author could have written the same thing but with different circumstances than slavery![...]" What Person A does here is moving the goalposts. It used to be about "promoting slavery" and was being argued based on the actual content of the series. But now that Person A got backed into a corner (metaphorically speaking, of course), Person A decided to move the goalposts from "promoting slavery" to something like "using slavery in a fictional work is untasteful!" by using meta arguments that involve baseless assumptions about the author's intentions and personal beliefs. At that point it's already safe to say that it was over and that Person B should not waste any further time arguing about the mental gymnastics that Person A is coming up with from that point forward. In short: If you want to critisize the moral aspects of a fictional work, then you must first accept the entire premise as is. The moment you consider cherry picking what parts of the premise "count" and which do not, you are essentially arguing about fanfiction rather than the actual work. And if you need to resort to meta-arguments, then you have likely already lost, because at that point you have already given up on proving your initial claim through in-universe proof. This is demonstrably false. You absolutely consider the writing process when evaluating a writer's mindset or intentions. The counter-argument I see is: "The selection of slavery and false rape allegations in this story is arbitrary." To which I reply: "If it was arbitrary, then why did these particular ideas pop into your mind first when writing a story? Why didn't they get nixxed at the storyboarding phase?" -----The answer is because the author doesn't see these portrayals as a problem. Ergo, they are misogynistic and/or slavery apologists. Or, because they are stupid. Or, because they KNOW these are problematic topics and chose to include them anyway, which makes the author morally bankrupt in pursuit of controversy. Besides, you're straw-manning ---- there's a difference between "slavery promotion" (which this is not) and "slavery apologism" (which this is... in that it essentially describes slavery as a necessary evil in the context of this world). Which is just a what-the-fuck thing to argue if you a.) had self-awareness about what you're writing, and b.) didn't actually mean anything sinister by it. The universe of the show is that this is OK. It thus promotes a world-view that, under some circumstances, slavery is OK. This is a textbook form of apologism. |
tery999 said: So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... Slavery is shown as "morally justifiable" in this world without any critical thought which is not just fucking stupid but actively harmful. "Horror animes promote people killing each others." ...No, murderers are usually the bad guys. I wonder why? There are shows where murderers are good guys, but -usually- the intent is to make you feel ambivalent about the nature of absolute morality. You know, a nuanced view. Such a thing is not even considered in this show and is just taken as a matter of fact which makes it harmful. And, again, "slavery" is such a weird thing to say that "it's okay sometimes!" that I have to wonder about your brain if you intend to argue this as an author of a work of fiction. |
DaBackpackJan 14, 2019 5:00 AM
Ysad_Ziwezhan said: Grey-Zone said: In short: If you want to critisize the moral aspects of a fictional work, then you must first accept the entire premise as is. The moment you consider cherry picking what parts of the premise "count" and which do not, you are essentially arguing about fanfiction rather than the actual work. And if you need to resort to meta-arguments, then you have likely already lost, because at that point you have already given up on proving your initial claim through in-universe proof. Is the presentation of slavery as a "necessary evil" for the hero (like back then in some parts of the real world) a good thing as premise for the " moral aspects of a fictional work" ? like : "Yes slavery is shit but ... but but but ... and if if if ... then it's still doable" kind of logic. and with the "do or die" simplistic logic you can go very very far indeed. You are operating under the wrong premise. It's not me who has to "defend the use of slavery" here. It's you who has to prove that the show is presenting slavery as a universally morally good thing. Many historians agree that slavery was "useful" in ancient times. Many of them probably even agree that without slavery the ancient great civilisations could not have been maintained. That in itself is not equal to a moral endorsement for slavery by these historians though, unless you can prove otherwise. DaBackpack said: "If it was arbitrary, then why did these particular ideas pop into your mind first when writing a story? Why didn't they get nixxed at the storyboarding phase?" This is exactly why I say this line of thought is invalid. You are "filling the blanks" of what we don't know about either the writing process or the author's mindset. You are replacing the unknowns with your personal imagination. Do I really need to explain the flaws of such reasoning? Let's just say that someone else could fill the missing parts with different imagination compared to you. For example that the slavery is used as a demonstration that the new world is an absolutely detestable world. What now? Will we pointlessly argue back and forth about our respective "arm-chair psycho-analysis" of the author's motives for including slavery in this story? Will we argue about whose magical mind reading ability is superior? No, because it's incredibly stupid to even entertain such a ridiculous line of reasoning. Rather than speculating about meta-things, when we don't even know the sex/gender of the author, how about actually relying on the work as presented? Of course, if you have any "word of god", i.e. interviews with the author to refer to, then that would change things, but until then keep focusing on the work itself instead of your imagination of the things surrounding it. DaBackpack said: Slavery is shown as "morally justifiable" in this world without any critical thought which is not just fucking stupid but actively harmful. You forgot about the part where you have to prove that anything in this "new world" is actually presented as any sort of valid moral compass for the audience, to make this line of reasoning work. I am pretty sure you didn't do that in any of your previous posts yet. Who in their right mind watches this show and thinks: "Oh look! This shitty country that just exposed why it can be considered absolutely detestable uses slavery! The protagonist who has been shown to be close to insanity in his current state also has been coaxed into making use of slavery out of desperation! Wow, what great role models! I will now consider slavery a good thing and practise it in real life!"? Sounds foolish? Because it is. But you are arguing in favor of just that kind of foolish reasoing. |
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DaBackpack said: tery999 said: So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... Slavery is shown as "morally justifiable" in this world without any critical thought which is not just fucking stupid but actively harmful. "Horror animes promote people killing each others." ...No, murderers are usually the bad guys. I wonder why? There are shows where murderers are good guys, but -usually- the intent is to make you feel ambivalent about the nature of absolute morality. You know, a nuanced view. Such a thing is not even considered in this show and is just taken as a matter of fact which makes it harmful. And, again, "slavery" is such a weird thing to say that "it's okay sometimes!" that I have to wonder about your brain if you intend to argue this as an author of a work of fiction. Look at this clown LOL. You seem to like the Fate series, its a show about summoning people to fight each other to the death, yes, to the death. You also seem to enjoy GTO, a story about a teacher that beats his students up and promotes relations between male teachers and underaged school girls. Dont get me wrong, both of these shows are pretty good and i dont think the authors of these shows actualy promote such those things, after all, its just a work of fiction, but if this one promotes slavery to you, then those other two NEED to also promote murder, beating underaged kids and pedophilia. |
| Funny how the discussion begins with snowflakes being trigger'd by false rape accusations to snowflakes being trigger'd by the author promoting slavery. Seriously, these snowflakes blown the context way out of proportion and missed the point because thinking outside the box seems too hard for some reason. The long version tl:dr version |
| I really don't care if it does, it may even add to its popularity and it's always funny to laugh at oversensitive virtue signalling hypocrites. |
elphaba16 said: Not disagreeing but did you have to make an alt account to post this?Their argument is pretty much "violent games make people violent". And don't reply to Bernrika. They're your typical room temperature IQ SJW. - Who's the REAL snowflakes??? - LE CONSPIRACY - *Reports everyone who disagrees with me* - Everyone I don't like is an incel If you aren't one then apologies. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
Ysad_Ziwezhan said: The thing is ... the slave [eventually becomes more than just a] party member, no problem, except the author ... [makes] it "obligatory" to keep the slave status for the female [throughout the majority of the story]. Again, I think it has more to do with the fetish of the devoted female than the author being pro-slavery, but it is nonetheless a lame plot-device. Sorry to have to correct you. Firstly, do you still believe the author is male? (not that it matters, just avoid using he or she if you don't know) Only a few critics here believe the author is being pro-slavery. I'm only entertaining the argument. I can care less how well a plot-device is used. I also see it as more than just a "fetish of the devote female." If the MC wasn't so traumatized, he probably would have removed the slave seal without a second thought. It's use here progresses the story more than anything. The MC's reaction to having the seal removed without his consent is proof enough. He really believes anyone who's not forced to stay by his side will betray him. This "lame plot-device" is used by the MC to overcome his trauma and EXP predicament. I'd rather not have to explain how there's nothing lame about it, unless you believe the MC's actions where inexcusable. However, it really would be lame if its only purpose was to fulfill a fetish. nina444 said: 1. the MC will eventually enslave shitton of wahmen , just wait xD 2. via enslaving shitton of wahmen in the process . well.. fair enough but , I think you (the author) should see a doctor . you have hella serious issues there... The MC is so frkn Salty due to this false rape accusation mumbo jumbo to the point he chooses to blame all wahmen in the world by enslaving every last one of em on sight lol In response to your answers, I'm fully aware. Does no one acknowledge they aren't all female. The reason behind most of them being female in the first place is a result of what the slave seller has in stock. It's likely males are sold off quicker than females for manual labor. I believe the series explains this so I won't even bother. The author is completely sane for having the MC buy all the leftovers, unless you think the only use for slaves is pleasure and there should've been far more males in stock than females. I'd also argue that males are priced higher than the females if it's judged by physical ability alone. MC probably wants what's cheap since he can get more value out of it due to his hero skills. Now see here, word choice. Instead of specifying the exact cause of the MC's trauma, it should be generalized. He was betrayed. Not just by a woman, but the whole kingdom who revered him as a hero; including the other heroes themselves. On the contrary, the fact that most of the slaves under him are female shows he hates males more than females. The MC initially believed it was the Spear Hero's plot to have one of his party members betray him to steal his belongings. "Enslave", word choice again. The MC doesn't make slaves; he buys them. Your exaggeration was likely intentional, so I won't take it too seriously. All will be cleared up as the adaptation progresses. |
ReloadJan 14, 2019 11:57 AM
| Give me at least 5 minutes to modify my post before quoting me. (refreshing page advised) |
Elviri said: Lloyd_ said: Does that mean Feminists is gonna jump on this anime then? If so, 2019 is gonna be a fun year for a lot of people. I really don't think feminists will make a problem of this? It's just a mean individual who makes false accusations, the story doesn't say that all women are like this or something. I mean, I call myself a feminist. I've also had my own 'me-too' moments. (For instance, when I was 12 (!) a bunch of guys came up to me and told me they wanted to r*pe me. I ran away, so nothing happened though. And when I was 14 a random guy in a swimming pool tore away my bikini top to touch my breasts. That might sound not that bad, but I'm a really shy person and have been afraid of swimming pools since then. I'm 21 now.) Despite all that, do I deny that false accusations exist? No. Of course not. Do I think all men are bad? Of course not, some of my best friends are guys. Do I hate this manga? No, it's always been one of my favourites. The only way this could cause a controversy is, if people take this particular example and go like 'See? All women are liars, their accusations are not even real'. I really think you people in this thread are making too big of a deal out of this particular aspect of the story. The viewers are just supposed to go like 'damn that woman is awful'. Nothing more than that. THANK YOU! That's what I also take from it. I don't see how that can be controversial or even made a big deal by feminists. |
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VeryLTTP said: Do I need to link more stuff? I ask because you know, right wings get triggered by "Happy Holidays", so It could be quite long... Yeah, link articles instead of generic memes. You're merely showing examples equivalent to the "outrage" against Doom's "mortally challenged" joke. There were definitely people who got triggered by the game's joke, but it was just a bunch of randos on Twitter. However, if there are journalists going out of their way to bash a piece of media on false pretenses, e.g. "Tate no Yuusha is a bad show because it and the author are misogynist", that's a whole another story. That's because articles have far more outreach than some thread in a forum or subReddit. The original argument was about right wing snowflakes, genius. I literally posted you examples (Like SSY episode 8 reactions WHICH YOU CAN FIND ON THIS VERY SITE) but you ignored them (Like the incels on /a/ raging at an anime aimed at FeMAles) and now you are moving the goalpost from how much snowflakes you right wings are to how people write articles that damage the anime identity. You literally moved the goalpost: I don't see the anti-SJW crowd getting so easily offended as they are not the ones who conflated fiction with reality. The SJW crowd did. That is why we see some very ridiculous accusations such as the author is misogynist or because the MC judged one woman as a thot, he must be sexist towards all women. The SJW's were the ones that made the series unnecessarily political. You original claim was 1) anti-SJW crown doesn't get offended. 2) They don't conflated fiction with reality. Which are both wrong since they are perpetual offended by anything progressive or anything that violates their beliefs: http://mantearsflowingfree.tumblr.com/ OMG! An anime aimed at women! You want to talk about articles? There are like a bazillion of right wing siteS arguing that marvel comics are encouraging WhiTE gENoCiDE or Videogame will cause the fall of society through CulRURal MArxiSM . I'm sure you know them since you are a reactionary. Sankaku complex, OAG, to name a few. Oh by the way, hiding behind " shoehorn or force identity politics" doesn't work, we can tell you are offended. elphaba16 said: Their argument is pretty much "violent games make people violent". And don't reply to Bernrika. They're your typical room temperature IQ SJW. - Who's the REAL snowflakes??? - LE CONSPIRACY - *Reports everyone who disagrees with me* - Everyone I don't like is an incel Also making an alt? Pathetic. And with a lack of self-awareness. >Everyone who disagrees with me is a SJW! >But I'm not an incel!!! Stop being wrong and start to grow. Maybe then you'll stop reading shit-tier isekai with edgy protagonists. |
BernrikaJan 14, 2019 3:20 PM
Bernrika said: The original argument was about right wing snowflakes, genius. I literally posted you examples (Like SSY episode 8 reactions WHICH YOU CAN FIND ON THIS VERY SITE) but you ignored them (Like the incels on /a/ raging at an anime aimed at FeMAles) and now you are moving the goalpost from how much snowflakes you right wings are to how people write articles that damage the anime identity. You literally moved the goalpost: I don't see the anti-SJW crowd getting so easily offended as they are not the ones who conflated fiction with reality. The SJW crowd did. That is why we see some very ridiculous accusations such as the author is misogynist or because the MC judged one woman as a thot, he must be sexist towards all women. The SJW's were the ones that made the series unnecessarily political. You failed to see the part where I was making a comparison between the anti-SJWs and SJWs. The SJWs are more easily offended than anti-SJWs because the claims I see from the SJW crowd are rather ridiculous and have the tendency to conflate fiction with reality. You original claim was 1) anti-SJW crown doesn't get offended. 2) They don't conflated fiction with reality. Which are both wrong since they are perpetual offended by anything progressive or anything that violates their beliefs: And you should've paid attention to the part where I said that in context of the SJW outrage over Shield Hero. I provided examples of outlandish claims about the adaptation and series. There are definitely some anti-SJWs that claim a certain piece of media is inciting discrimination against white people or what not, but again, I'm not seeing articles written with those claims. A bunch of random people on an isolated forum does not establish a set pattern... Really? Just one post from one random user from a forum? That's the best you can do? You, sir, really need to look up why a large sample size is important in statistics... What I proved with my citation is that there is a institutionally-led outrage against Shield Hero. ANN and Anime Feminist are such institutions pushing that outrage as they used their platforms to push false pretenses rather than reviewing a show apolitically. You want to talk about articles? There are like a bazillion of right wing siteS arguing that marvel comics are encouraging WhiTE gENoCiDE or Videogame will cause the fall of society through CulRURal MArxiSM . I'm sure you know them since you are a reactionary. Sankaku complex, OAG, to name a few. Oh great, even more assertions without providing evidence. It's like you don't even know how to back up a claim. "These things exist! Just trust me! Just don't question the part where I don't provide any evidence or provide extremely bad pieces of evidence!" The burden of proof falls on the person making the positive claim. You have not fulfilled your burden of proof. Why should I believe you, especially when you have continually resorted to underhanded, dishonest tactics? Oh by the way, hiding behind " shoehorn or force identity politics" doesn't work, we can tell you are offended. Who's "we"? ANTIFA? As far I as I know, only you speak for yourself. Oh and what you just did is what we call an ad infinitum fallacy. It's always the same tactics whether it's you or NthDegree. Repeat, repeat, repeat the same talking points as if it makes them any more reasonable. Shouting "Right wing! Right wing!" like a deranged lunatic also doesn't help your case. This is what we call an ad infinitum ad hominem. Let's face it. You can't argue your case and thus, you resorted to making repeated personal attacks to get me to lose my cool. I apologize that I'm not falling into your trap :( On the bright side, you're Streisand Effect-ing this adaptation rather well :) |
VeryLTTPJan 14, 2019 3:54 PM
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