Satyr_icon said: Skeptic said: Except this show is not problematic in the slightest so your entire argument falls flat. It’s anti art to control what the author can and can’t do. It's hilarious how much his point seems to have flown right above your head. Ok and? Will you care to elaborate? |
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Skeptic said: Ok and? Will you care to elaborate? What can I say? Criticism, even if dumb or if you disagree with =/= controlling what the author can and can't do. I'm amazed you even managed to get to that conclusion out of what he said, especially when he said, again and again, that this is not about censoring art. An artist submits his work to society's criticism. He can choose to bend and follow trends or be different and maybe attract spite, maybe acquire a following (which usually happens twofold with everything, honestly; you can't appeal to everybody). Nothing new about it. |
Satyr_icon said: Skeptic said: Ok and? Will you care to elaborate? What can I say? Criticism, even if dumb or if you disagree with =/= controlling what the author can and can't do. I'm amazed you even managed to get to that conclusion out of what he said, especially when he said, again and again, that this is not about censoring art. An artist submits his work to society's criticism. Nothing new about it. They’re criticizing that the false rape allegation against the main character is lazy writing without even going into detail as to why it is lazy and instead they needlessly interject their politics into a work of fiction and explain that the plot point of fake rape allegations will lead to “suppression of women’s voices” and they even make a fictional villain out to be a victim of a real life issue. That’s not good journalism or criticism at all. They also keep saying the author should have used another motivation for the villain instead of using a false rape allegation which has “no purpose to the story” which again they don’t even explain all that well. That sounds awfully like they’re trying to limit the authors creative potential because the message they’re spreading is than an innocent man being accused of rape is just too much to handle and the entire show has an incel mentality that nobody should support. If the villains motive was something else entirely they would have been ok with it which just shows off their political bias and double standards and that they think the author will listen to them and cater to their beliefs |
SkepticJan 12, 2019 5:21 PM
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Skeptic said: That sounds awfully like they’re trying to limit the authors creative potential Nah, it just sounds like bad criticism. Not all that different from that small toxic part of the Star Wars fanbase which likes to raid and send death threats to everyone involved in the new movies. It's not that they are wrong that they suck badly, they're just profusely and utterly misguided in the way they act. I'd say this might be more accepted in a Japanese context, where accusations of sexual misconduct are deeply ingrained within pop culture and they don't bat an eye at it as yet just another isekai (lately every manga I've read had at least one situation like that, some even unfounded like in Shield Hero, though never the driving element) but the West is still too sensitive about it, so it's not really a surprise there has been some controversy here. I didn't watch the show, but I did read the first few chapters of the manga and it did felt like a cheap excuse to move a revenge kind plot along, so I lost interest fast. I don't remember the gal showing any sign that would lead us to believe she had ill intentions, it just came out of nowhere as a way to give the protagonist motivation and to show us she's a bitch. She's just used as an avatar of evil, as if the author has a deep spite of this kind of act — I mean, who doesn't? However, misguided anger is not enough to produce a good enough story. Of course, situations like that do happen in real life. But this is fiction. Realism shouldn't mean replicating the dullness of reality. Evil for the sake of evil feels cheap most of the time, unless you have something really good to justify it, like a conflicted character in the midst of it all (like Darth Vader). It's one reason I disliked Akame ga Kill. The villains are never given a reason to be evil: they just are, and the good guys are good because they are against them. This might work in grand scale epics like LOTR, but it doesn't really cut for derivative works of fantasy. The way Shield Hero did it was a lot like Goblin Slayer did: a bit of shock factor right at the beginning to outrage viewers and attract them to the story, because let's face it, it works. The score here on MAL shows that the critics are on the losing side. But it doesn't really cut it for an interesting story. My problem with it is not the act itself, only that it is used in a shallow way to drive the plot, and it serves no purpose whatsoever. I didn't had a problem with the slavery part, though. It was the same stuff with Magus Bride for me. Something obviously made to appeal to some kind of fantasy some readers might have (not in having a slave, but more the "having a cute girl attached to me and treat her well") and not really romanticising slavery. Skeptic said: If the villains motive was something else entirely they would have been ok with it which just shows off their political bias and double standards and that they think the author will listen to them and cater to their beliefs So what if they have political bias? Most of the criticisms towards the latest Star Wars (and a lot of stuff nowadays, honestly; just look at the hate towards Steven Universe, it's completely political) have a clear political bias against political correctness and leftist politics and movements, and many of the videos on it delve a lot on this factor, and I don't see anyone complaining about it, even because that alone doesn't make their arguments any less sound. |
Satyr_iconJan 12, 2019 5:58 PM
Satyr_icon said: Skeptic said: That sounds awfully like they’re trying to limit the authors creative potential Nah, it just sounds like bad criticism. Not all that different from that small toxic part of the Star Wars fanbase which likes to raid and send death threats to everyone involved in the new movies. It's not that they are wrong that they suck badly, they're just profusely and utterly misguided in the way they act. . AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Are you gonna cry about how mean right wingers are? Then please do, cry more and louder please, it will only make this anime more popular and all the sweeter. All the disgusting leftist tears fueled Goblin Slayer and only increased its popularity since they made people actualy check out the series, and now they will fuel this. |
Tougen said: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Are you gonna cry about how mean right wingers are? Then please do, cry more and louder please, it will only make this anime more popular and all the sweeter. Your disgusting leftist tears fueled Goblin Slayer, and now they will fuel this. Bad bait is bad. Your reading skills are terrible btw. Here's your quote I guess. |
| triggered SJWs are funny AF lol, especially ANN's garbage "critics" |
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| CAN WE PLEASE STOP?! the thought of an upcoming controversy that might happen didnt even cross my mind until - OF COURSE - someone had to bring it up.... DONT LIKE IT DONT WATCH IT! it is really that easy... could we as a species pls focus on real problems? |
| I wasn't originally going to watch this as I try to avoid Isekai shows wherever possible but the controversy around this drew me in and convinced me to give it a chance. I would like to extend my thanks to the "usual crowd" of hyper offended weirdos who freaked out over this show, otherwise I as well as many others might never have watched it and made it one of the highest rated shows of the season. Thankyou. P.S. No one wants to listen to your lectures on why they are bad people for liking things that you don't like. |
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Chimerared said: I wasn't originally going to watch this as I try to avoid Isekai shows wherever possible but the controversy around this drew me in and convinced me to give it a chance. I would like to extend my thanks to the "usual crowd" of hyper offended weirdos who freaked out over this show, otherwise I as well as many others might never have watched it and made it one of the highest rated shows of the season. Thankyou. P.S. No one wants to listen to your lectures on why they are bad people for liking things that you don't like. This one is not bad, the fact that the protagonist isnt some OP mofo that goes around killing everything withoud any effort is a plus, its not revolutionary, but pretty enjoyable. Dont expect it to be theone of best anime you have ever watched ever, and you'll enjoy it, isekai or not. |
| I liked the first episode enough that I read/scanned the manga up to 50. It is pretty mild and nothing like Goblin Slayer. That said, it was hilariously easy to predict the controversies. Sadly, there is mostly no way to reach out to the offendatrons (Oh no! This proves I am a right winger. /s) To them, this show promotes rape and slavery. Never expose your opinions to them. On the other hand, the people who became right wingers after SJWs vs antis war became huge after events like GG, I feel bad for you. You will be screwed someday down the road. Jack Thompson tried to make a comeback. The rest, enjoy being free and keep yourselves safe in these insane tribal times. This stupid ride never ends. |
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VeryLTTP said: Again, you're just asserting without evidence. And this problem will repeat itself as I point out at other points of your response. What do you want me to do? Go check Franxx threads or SSY Ep. 8 threads. It's not my job to educate you. See what I mean. You make an assertion, but you don't show anything beyond that. It screams "anyone who doesn't agree with me is a right wing snowflake". Hmm, I'm literally quoting a post here. No, I'm not going to look for it, but someone literally called YoI "An extreme left nightmare". And even if I were to just go with the flow, is it the existence of gay characters KiA gets outraged about, or is it possible that KiA doesn't like the way gay characters are portrayed, i.e. they are just shoehorned in for no other reason. "Forced" and "shoehorned" are just smockescreens for "I don't like gay characters" genius. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E83CtWFkQW0 Do you seriously want me to link you every time you "anti-sjw" got triggered? Because it could be quite long, incels cannot stand anyone who isn't like them. Oh, cool, an ad hominem on top of the many other fallacies you have already made. Apparently to you, a person's political leanings are dictated by who that person watches on the Internet rather than the opinions and principles that person stands for. Maybe because you right wings all do the same fucking shit. Do you also have a smug anime girl avatar on twitter? But hey, this is clearly right wing, am I right? I don't care about what polls you took to make yourself look liberal so you don't get associated with all the nasty stuff conservatives are famous for. Your words and sites you link show your true colors. I was solely talking about the alleged outrage about Yuri on Ice, though, and used KiA as a barometer. I never claimed that KiA does not get outraged about gay characters, so this part of your comment is a strawman argument. Why would you use KiA as a barometer? And KiA is a right wing site that is constantly outrage about stuff, the whole discussion is about right-wings snowflkaes. Maybe go check OAG to see how your kind reacts to anything that deviates from their ideas. Muuuh degeneranciesssss How do I lack self-awareness if I never said I hate ANN for being political? Once again, you're just shooting down a statement I never uttered, i.e. it's a strawman. No, you called them SJW. Same shit, different flavor. And yet, it's the "right-wing anti-SJWs" that are getting all outraged for no reason, and not you with all the fallacies and hyperbole... But hey, continue to dig that hole deeper for yourself because it's just bringing more attention to here so I have nothing to complain :) Remember when incels got mad that a kyoani anime decided to pAndER tO WomEN for once?  Do I need to link more stuff? I ask because you know, right wings get triggered by "Happy Holidays", so It could be quite long... |
BernrikaJan 13, 2019 5:12 AM
 >YFW you only wanted an adaptation of Ranobe you read |
GerverJan 13, 2019 5:52 AM
| The opinions of people with shit taste, such as yourself, may differ of course. |
Huex3 said: copyrightRingo said: This world has really gone insane. Pages of political gender bullshit discussion, over a fucking fictional show. If you can't distinguish what's right and wrong, reality and fictional and you are older than 11, you should stay in a mental hospital. We are humans. We HAVE the capability to distinguish things like these. Think to yourself, what are you doing? Why are you outraged/so critical over this? Is it just because you hate this show? What are you even trying to accomplish? Well most of them are probably Americans... Cause for some reason it matters to them whether you're from left or right whatever the hell that means to watching anime. Yeah... this is really stupid. We are regressing. What happened to the 3 episode rule? What happened to just appreciate and enjoy a story for what it is? What happened to just watch ecchi shows for plot instead of discussing over-sexualization? What happened to just watch the show and have fun? |
| 「ボクは…確かに現実に絶望している。だけど、自分には絶望していない!! 今がつまらないか…楽しいのか…平凡なのか…決めているのは現実じゃない。決めるのはボクだ!!ボクが望めば不可能はない!!」-桂木桂馬 "True, I've given up on the real world. However, I haven't given up on myself!! The world doesn't get to decide whether my life is boring, fun, or ordinary because that's my decision to make!! As long as I have the will, nothing is impossible!!" -Katsuragi Keima |
Bernrika said: What do you want me to do? Go check Franxx threads or SSY Ep. 8 threads. It's not my job to educate you. You made a claim. You must back it. That's your job. Hmm, I'm literally quoting a post here. No, I'm not going to look for it, but someone literally called YoI "An extreme left nightmare". Again, not my problem. You made the claim, so it's on you to back it up. Even if you find that quote, to extrapolate that quote from one person to generalize a wider group of people isn't particularly a great idea... "Forced" and "shoehorned" are just smockescreens for "I don't like gay characters" genius. Once again, you are just making a claim without backing it up. And then, you complain that you have to do the legwork and try to weasel your way out. That's just an individual video from an individual person. And if you actually watched that video, the musics gives a rather satirical tone. The person more poking fun than going in a rage. Not to mention, you didn't even try to explain why Overwatch does not shoehorn or force identity politics. You just handwave it away with some unsubstantiated conspiracy. Do you seriously want me to link you every time you "anti-sjw" got triggered? Because it could be quite long, incels cannot stand anyone who isn't like them. Oh, great. "Anyone who doesn't agree with me is an incel". Excuse me as I act surprised at your ad hominem...  Maybe because you right wings all do the same fucking shit. I'm actually starting to think you're a parody account to make SJWs look extremely silly. *Claims I'm right wing* *I show you my political compass results* *.... YOU RIGHT WINGS ALL DO THE SAME FUCKING SHIT!* Do you also have a smug anime girl avatar on twitter?  I don't even use Twitter... I don't care about what polls you took to make yourself look liberal so you don't get associated with all the nasty stuff conservatives are famous for. Your words and sites you link show your true colors. Ah, you're at the denial stage. When you're faced with the fact that not everyone disagrees with you is a right winger... just deny, deny, deny. You actually sound like a deranged Evangelical preacher. Just replace "conservatives" with "hooligans" and "colors" with "sin", and there we go. Why would you use KiA as a barometer? I already explained that earlier. I'm not at all surprised you haven't paid attention as you're more focused at taking personal potshots than directly addressing arguments. And KiA is a right wing site that is constantly outrage about stuff, the whole discussion is about right-wings snowflkaes. Maybe go check OAG to see how your kind reacts to anything that deviates from their ideas. Muuuh degeneranciesssss Prove it. This is yet another claim that you do not substantiate. Let me guess? You're just going to label me right wing because that's all you can do even though you are fully aware that I'm not right wing. No, you called them SJW. Same shit, different flavor. No, you claimed that I hate ANN for being political. Since you have failed to support your claim and replaced it with a different claim, I assume you have conceded that you were wrong. Moving on... Remember when incels got mad that a kyoani anime decided to pAndER tO WomEN for once? No, and I don't care as you haven't substantiated that claim. Do I need to link more stuff? I ask because you know, right wings get triggered by "Happy Holidays", so It could be quite long... Yeah, link articles instead of generic memes. You're merely showing examples equivalent to the "outrage" against Doom's "mortally challenged" joke. There were definitely people who got triggered by the game's joke, but it was just a bunch of randos on Twitter. However, if there are journalists going out of their way to bash a piece of media on false pretenses, e.g. "Tate no Yuusha is a bad show because it and the author are misogynist", that's a whole another story. That's because articles have far more outreach than some thread in a forum or subReddit. |
| This thread is so disgusting... |
Xederpl said: NthDegree said: @Xederpl We can talk about whether it affects the real world or not later. If you have read my replies, you would know I haven't really commented on that at all yet, so you're trying to refute something that hasn't even been said. My point is simply that the show promotes slavery and misogyny within the work for the reasons I quoted in my previous post. Once we have cleared this up, we can argue about the real-world implications all you want. And once again, presenting something does not equal promotion. NthDegree said: Promoting slavery is simple: the MC supports actual slavery by being a slave master. That's bad enough but furthermore tl;dr: I've never criticized depicting slavery, only depicting it as positive for the majority of the time. |
NthDegree said: tl;dr: I've never criticized depicting slavery, only depicting it as positive for the majority of the time. You cite the EXP share as one of the benefits of the slave seal in the series. But to extrapolate that into normalizing slavery in real life is laughable as there is no such mechanic in real life. Also, you did not refute Xederpl's refutation entirely as he criticized you for claiming that the show promotes slavery and "misogyny". For someone who has the propensity to point your fingers at others for "completely missing the point", you are guilty of what you claimed others of doing. |
| This thread is a complete disaster. |
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VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: tl;dr: I've never criticized depicting slavery, only depicting it as positive for the majority of the time. You cite the EXP share as one of the benefits of the slave seal in the series. But to extrapolate that into normalizing slavery in real life is laughable as there is no such mechanic in real life. Also, you did not refute Xederpl's refutation entirely as he criticized you for claiming that the show promotes slavery and "misogyny". For someone who has the propensity to point your fingers at others for "completely missing the point", you are guilty of what you claimed others of doing. I don't remember saying anything about real life in this thread. I simply said it promotes it, not its effects on real life. If you want to comment on that, go to the right thread. So you accept that it promotes slavery then? Wonderful. I like to take questions one at the time, but if you already agree on slavery, sure, we can talk about misogyny next. |
NthDegree said: I don't remember saying anything about real life in this thread. I simply said it promotes it, not its effects on real life. If you want to comment on that, go to the right thread. You cited the EXP share as one of the reasons how the series is promoting slavery. But how can EXP share promote slavery if such a mechanic doesn't actually exist in real life? So you accept that it promotes slavery then? Wonderful. You are starting to lose it, my friend. Hastily trying to stuff words in another's mouth isn't the way to go. Also, if you actually read my other responses to you, you should know that the answer to that question is the direct opposite. But hey, you like to take the expedient way by going the character assassination route. If you can't refute the person's arguments directly, try to make that person look bad instead. I like to take questions one at the time, but if you already agree on slavery, sure, we can talk about misogyny next. That is if you actually prove the so-called "misogyny" exists and you still have not adequately refuted my points previously. Asking a question with an unproven assumption is what we call a Complex Question Fallacy. |
NthDegree said: @NthDegree Why are you talking about real life when I'm not talking about it? I simply said it depicts slavery positively for the majority of time, ie. promotes it. But I haven't mentioned anything about it affecting real life here. If the author is promoting slavery, then he/she is saying that slavery is okay to practice. That applies to real life. How can one promote slavery to a fictional society if that society doesn't exist? Just because you didn't mention real life, it doesn't mean real life is not involved. In addition, to depict means to "to represent by or as if by a picture". To promote means to "to help bring (something, such as an enterprise) into being" or "to contribute to the growth or prosperity of". Overall, your claim is a non sequitor argument. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: @NthDegree Why are you talking about real life when I'm not talking about it? I simply said it depicts slavery positively for the majority of time, ie. promotes it. But I haven't mentioned anything about it affecting real life here. If the author is promoting slavery, then he/she is saying that slavery is okay to practice. That applies to real life. How can one promote slavery to a fictional society if that society doesn't exist? Just because you didn't mention real life, it doesn't mean real life is not involved. In addition, to depict means to "to represent by or as if by a picture". To promote means to "to help bring (something, such as an enterprise) into being" or "to contribute to the growth or prosperity of". Overall, your claim is a non sequitor argument. Well, since you seem to want to bring that up so badly... NthDegree said: The fact something is outlawed doesn't mean it has disappeared completely. For example human trafficking is still a big problem and modern slavery also does exist. For example if you have heard of the news about how Qatar is holding soccer world cup, you'd know that the infrastructure for it is being built by what has been described as slavery. Basically they import workers from other countries and their boss confiscates their passport, so they won't be able to leave unless they work in bad conditions. People have literally died there. However, a lot of countries care more about soccer than slavery, which is why the tournament still gets held. Here's an article for more info: https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/international/world-cup-2022-qatars-workers-slaves-building-mausoleums-stadiums-modern-slavery-kafala-a7980816.html So if we express positive depictions of slavery in media, people may feel less inclined to stand up against this type of thing. Or they may start thinking that as long as there is no overt physical abuse it's fine to have slaves, similar to Naofumi. However, the reality is that regardless of whether abuse exists, a slave's freedom is taken away, which in itself is unethical. That's my stance on it. |
NthDegree said: That's my stance on it. People may feel less inclined. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be inclined. And no, Naofumi did not think it's okay to have slaves because he doesn't physical abuse them. In fact, I already pointed out that Raphtalia willingly had the slave seal re-applied and how the seal adopted a different meaning akin to how the letter "A" from Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" changed its meaning throughout the course of the novel. I should also point out that the reason why he bought a slave in the first place was because of a mechanic that doesn't exist in real life. There is no such thing as a slave seal that can automatically kill or shock a slave if that slave betrays or lies to his/her master. See what I mean when I said you have to pay attention to my previous responses? When you are hell bent on repeating the same assertions over and over again, you easily miss the various counterarguments that have already been made. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: That's my stance on it. People may feel less inclined. That doesn't necessarily mean they will be inclined. And no, Naofumi did not think it's okay to have slaves because he doesn't physical abuse them. In fact, I already pointed out that Raphtalia willingly had the slave seal re-applied and how the seal adopted a different meaning akin to how the letter "A" from Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter" changed its meaning throughout the course of the novel. I should also point out that the reason why he bought a slave in the first place was because of a mechanic that doesn't exist in real life. There is no such thing as a slave seal that can automatically kill or shock a slave if that slave betrays or lies to his/her master. See what I mean when I said you have to pay attention to my previous responses? When you are hell bent on repeating the same assertions over and over again, you easily miss the various counterarguments that have already been made. Does it matter whether it's a gun or a sword pointing at a slave's back? Why does it matter what manner of violence (in this case, a spell) the slave is threatened with? I would say no. Regardless of what the MC's in-universe motivation for it may be, you can't deny that his use of it is depicted positively. |
NthDegree said: Does it matter whether it's a gun or a sword pointing at a slave's back? Why does it matter what manner of violence (in this case, a spell) the slave is threatened with? I would say no. Ah, the old ignore the other part of the argument tactic... Yes, let's forget the part where Raphatalia had the option to not have the seal re-applied, but she did so under her own agency... Regardless of what the MC's in-universe motivation for it may be, you can't deny that his use of it is depicted positively. So readers will just start asking their governments to legalize slavery? |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Does it matter whether it's a gun or a sword pointing at a slave's back? Why does it matter what manner of violence (in this case, a spell) the slave is threatened with? I would say no. Ah, the old ignore the other part of the argument tactic... Yes, let's forget the part where Raphatalia had the option to not have the seal re-applied, but she did so under her own agency... Author can make Raphitalia say anything. Essentially the implication here is that slavery isn't bad because the slave agreed with the contract herself. If you refer to my example on modern slavery, you can see quite many slaves that signed their contracts voluntarily because of their circumstances. That still doesn't change the fact that the slave is robbed of their freedom. VeryLTTP said: Regardless of what the MC's in-universe motivation for it may be, you can't deny that his use of it is depicted positively. So readers will just start asking their governments to legalize slavery? Did you not read my earlier post? Let me remind you. NthDegree said: So if we express positive depictions of slavery in media, people may feel less inclined to stand up against this type of thing. Or they may start thinking that as long as there is no overt physical abuse it's fine to have slaves, similar to Naofumi. However, the reality is that regardless of whether abuse exists, a slave's freedom is taken away, which in itself is unethical. |
NthDegree said: Author can make Raphitalia say anything. Essentially the implication here is that slavery isn't bad because the slave agreed with the contract herself. No, the implication is that the slave seal is less of a symbol of slavery to Raphtalia and more of a symbol of her being the MC's metaphorical sword. That's what we call symbolism. Are you intentionally ignoring the parallel to "The Scarlet Letter"? If you refer to my example on modern slavery, you can see quite many slaves that signed their contracts voluntarily because of their circumstances. That still doesn't change the fact that the slave is robbed of their freedom. The slaves from your examples are robbed of their freedom. That does not necessarily apply to Raphtalia in the show. Did you not read my earlier post? I even bolded that bit to you before. Let me remind you. Did you not read my earlier post about the parallel between the slave seal and "The Scarlet Letter"? Did you not read my earlier post about the difference between depiction and promotion? Not directly addressing my refutation and proceeding to repeat the same assertions do not make your case stronger. You are effectively making an ad infinitum argument. |
NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP I'm ignoring it because I haven't read it. It is not required reading where I live. You don't need to read the entire novel nor did I ask you to do that. Citing that as a reason to ignore that part of my argument is a rather poor excuse. However, if your argument holds any water you can also explain it yourself without relying on historical fiction. I already did multiple times across multiple threads. It is not my job to make sure that you are paying attention. |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: @VeryLTTP I'm ignoring it because I haven't read it. It is not required reading where I live. You don't need to read the entire novel nor did I ask you to do that. Citing that as a reason to ignore that part of my argument is a rather poor excuse. However, if your argument holds any water you can also explain it yourself without relying on historical fiction. I already did multiple times across multiple threads. It is not my job to make sure that you are paying attention. Let me be clear then. The first time I even heard of the book was when you mentioned it. I have no idea what it's about. It may be a classic in America, but I'm not American. So all it does is make your argument more confusing. From my perspective your inability to explain it is because your argument has holes. |
| Lmao who cares if it has slavery. This is not America its Japan. Go get butthurt about your american cartoons. |
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NthDegree said: Let me be clear then. The first time I even heard of the book was when you mentioned it. I have no idea what it's about. It may be a classic in America, but I'm not American. So all it does it make your argument more confusing. Because obviously, you can't just check the synopsis online... From my perspective your inability to explain it is because your argument has holes. Ah, here we go with conflating "refusal" with "inability". You definitely like to assume two words with different definitions mean the same thing, eh? From my perspective, this is just another poor excuse because I already referenced the novel multiple times. Like I said, it is not my job to keep track of your attention span. I mentioned what the letter "A" stood for at the beginning of "The Scarlet Letter" and what it changed to at the end of the novel. I explained how the slave seal on Raphtalia changed its meaning similarly. EDIT: Aaaaaand yep, I did explain it to you already before. You have absolutely zero excuse. |
VeryLTTPJan 13, 2019 11:53 AM
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Let me be clear then. The first time I even heard of the book was when you mentioned it. I have no idea what it's about. It may be a classic in America, but I'm not American. So all it does it make your argument more confusing. Because obviously, you can't just check the synopsis online... From my perspective your inability to explain it is because your argument has holes. Ah, here we go with conflating "refusal" with "inability". You definitely like to assume two words with different definitions mean the same thing, eh? From my perspective, this is just another poor excuse because I already referenced the novel multiple times. Like I said, it is not my job to keep track of your attention span. I mentioned what the letter "A" stood for at the beginning of "The Scarlet Letter" and what it changed to at the end of the novel. I explained how the slave seal on Raphtalia changed its meaning similarly. EDIT: Aaaaaand yep, I did explain it to you already before. You have absolutely zero excuse. Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. Not to mention your argument only covers Raphitalia and not Firo. Didn't that one clumsy girl also get slave'd for the exp later? That too. Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them? |
NthDegree said: Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. Ah, changing the rules when they're not working out for you. Too bad because the symbolism is related. I already pointed out at the similarities. Just because you can ignore my argument, it doesn't mean that the argument is invalid. It just show that you are arguing in bad faith. Not to mention your argument only covers Raphitalia and not Firo. Didn't that one clumsy girl also get slave'd for the exp later? That too. Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them? Complex Question Fallacy. You love using that tactic, don't you? |
VeryLTTP said: NthDegree said: Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. Ah, changing the rules when they're not working out for you. Too bad because the symbolism is related. I already pointed out at the similarities. Just because you can ignore my argument, it doesn't mean that the argument is invalid. It just show that you are arguing in bad faith. Not to mention your argument only covers Raphitalia and not Firo. Didn't that one clumsy girl also get slave'd for the exp later? That too. Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them? Complex Question Fallacy. You love using that tactic, don't you? I never said your argument was invalid. I simply said I couldn't answer to it. At this point I'm fairly certain you do not know what a Complex Question Fallacy actually is. Let me teach you. A real CQF would be if I said something like 'why is the slave mark a symbol of empowerment for Firo', because it incorrectly assumes that it indeed is a symbol of empowerment for her. However, 'do you think the slave mark is a symbol of empowerment for Firo?' is not a CQF, because it is the assumption that is the target of the question. I really wish you actually understood your terms before starting to throw them around. |
NthDegree said: I never said your argument was invalid. I simply said I couldn't answer to it. This is what you said: Why should I check it online? As mentioned before, if your argument is worth it, you can explain it without referencing some unrelated novel. You basically said that my argument has to be supported without referencing "The Scarlet Letter". Again, you're arguing in bad faith. At this point I'm fairly certain you do not know what a Complex Question Fallacy actually is. Let me teach you. A real CQF would be if I said something like 'why is the slave mark a symbol of empowerment for Firo', because it incorrectly assumes that it indeed is a symbol of empowerment for her. However, 'do you think the slave mark is a symbol of empowerment for Firo?' is not a CQF, because it is the assumption that is the target of the question. "Or are you saying that slave symbol is a symbol of empowerment for ALL of them?" is a Complex Question Fallacy because you asked a question assuming that I argued that claim already. I did not nor have I brought up Firo. I really wish you actually understood your terms before starting to throw them around. This applies more to you than to me. Perhaps, you need to present your points differently so you can be taken more seriously... |
| So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... |
| Gib [img] plz |
tery999 said: So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... Mob Psycho does not promote pursuing psychic powers, it's pretty much against that whole idea. Mob wants to better himself without shortcuts, that's why he joined the Body Improvement Club instead of the Telepathy Club. Psychics who use their powers in the world are seen as pathetic, the whole Claw thing comes to mind. Those other concepts you said don't work either, because you see, slavery actually occurred, it stills occurs, no one gets transported to magical worlds, no one can become some magical ninja or has been a magical ninja, horror anime don't even promote murder since murder is still seen as wrong. I don't understand how you can correlate all those things to slavery, they are vastly different concepts. Also using petty insults doesn't make you look cool or anything, to be honest, it looks pathetic. |
  Don't worry about being lame now, you were always lame anyway!  |
BackstageMage said: tery999 said: So after reading the last page here: There is slavery in the anime, therefor it promotes it. Just like Naruto promotes people becoming ninjas. Action animes promote people beating each other up. Sekai animes promote people going into virtual worlds. Soccer animes promote people becoming David Beckam. Horror animes promote people killing each others. Mob Psycho promotes people pursuing their psychic powers. SJWs really are something. Such interesting creatures... Mob Psycho does not promote pursuing psychic powers, it's pretty much against that whole idea. Mob wants to better himself without shortcuts, that's why he joined the Body Improvement Club instead of the Telepathy Club. Psychics who use their powers in the world are seen as pathetic, the whole Claw thing comes to mind. Those other concepts you said don't work either, because you see, slavery actually occurred, it stills occurs, no one gets transported to magical worlds, no one can become some magical ninja or has been a magical ninja, horror anime don't even promote murder since murder is still seen as wrong. I don't understand how you can correlate all those things to slavery, they are vastly different concepts. Also using petty insults doesn't make you look cool or anything, to be honest, it looks pathetic. Uh... that's totally sarcasm smh r/woooosh |
| 「ボクは…確かに現実に絶望している。だけど、自分には絶望していない!! 今がつまらないか…楽しいのか…平凡なのか…決めているのは現実じゃない。決めるのはボクだ!!ボクが望めば不可能はない!!」-桂木桂馬 "True, I've given up on the real world. However, I haven't given up on myself!! The world doesn't get to decide whether my life is boring, fun, or ordinary because that's my decision to make!! As long as I have the will, nothing is impossible!!" -Katsuragi Keima |
| If forums like this didn't exist, no one would even see this as controversial. I've watched several anime without exchanging opinions with others, and I'm better off for it. I don't watch anime to judge it or put a label on it. Same goes for movies, TV shows, and video games. It's always been a means of killing time, regardless of what the stories depict. Why choose watching with a "critical eye" over just being entertained? Watch the news or read a history book if you want to see real depictions of wrongdoing. Oh, wait. It's actually raising awareness. Artists get their inspiration from real life events. Artist don't pursue careers in the entertainment industry just to depict outdated ideologies. They're making their setting as realistic as possible; and of course, making an honest living out of story telling. None of that speaks "controversy" to me. As for how I'd describe slavery in the series, it's a system the MC was able to take advantage of due to the game mechanics he has. The mechanics are limited to the heroes alone. The kingdom offering party members was an alternative to these mechanics. Sadly, our MC lost his right to have party members; not that he had any to begin with. So, he had to resort to using a slave to gain EXP. Taking away freedom isn't being promoted in any way. How Not to Summon a Demon Lord did the same. The slaves are always treated humanely, as most MCs come from modern day society. Would've been worse if one of the heroes saw it as acceptable. The MC doesn't see it as acceptable himself. It's a means of avoiding betrayal. Calling this arbitrary on the author's part is presumptuous. It moves the story forward, given the MC's predicament. Concerning misogyny, it's not limited to females for the MC. You mustn't forget his prejudice developed from a trauma caused by betrayal. Technically, the whole kingdom betrayed the MC; including the other heroes. Relevant females in this series are all given "agency", as NthDegree put it. If you've forgotten, every able character is working towards the same goal. They must all defend their home against the waves. Gender and agency plays no role here. The status quo changes with every new character introduced with fighting capability. How their introduce hardly matters. No one falls into this misogynistic ideology critics are propagating except the villain of the story. The slaves under the MC aren't all female. Females having more pull than males isn't enough reason for the MC to hate females either. All the edginess depicted in the series comes from one thing: "one man against the world." Goblin Slayer was similar: "one man against goblin hordes." Both eventually accepted help, regardless of gender. Both are also stories of revenge. Not everyone is a fan of revenge stories since fantasies are usually about adventure... Oh, seems I have nothing else to complain about. I'll just answer the questions presented by @NthDegree: 1. "Do you agree that the MC benefits from slavery in the story?" YES and NO. "YES" because MC has a viable means of gaining EXP. The "NO" response is spoiler. What it boils down to is responsibility. Every ideology has pros and cons. Even slavery. Free food at the price of labor is the same as labor paying for said food. 2. "Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that it was in the MC's best interest to participate in slavery?" YES. Take out slavery and what do you have: A lone hero without a means of effectively leveling up. Guess what's included in this story setup: THE SHIELD. If your going to question the setup of slavery, you may as well question the setup of a defensive weapon being useful. Guess I should ask the questions now: (two can play at this game) 1. Do you agree the MC wouldn't have participate in slavery if he had a viable means of gaining EXP? 2. Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that the MC would only accomplish great feats when he relied on others? |
ReloadJan 13, 2019 11:54 PM
| Give me at least 5 minutes to modify my post before quoting me. (refreshing page advised) |
Reload said: 1. "Do you agree that the MC benefits from slavery in the story?" YES and NO. "YES" because MC has a viable means of gaining EXP. The "NO" response is spoiler. What it boils down to is responsibility. Every ideology has pros and cons. Even slavery. Free food at the price of labor is the same as labor paying for said food. Woaaaaah ! That's so great to read something stupid like that. The amazing thing in this thread on a psychological level is one can notice that many people aren't concerned by slavery. Lucky us. That's why they/we don't bother. So few here ever thought about ... being the slave (even less one being sexually abused or tortured). They can't relate, it's way beyond their empathy level. So great ! Lucky us, we will never experience being a slave, so ... a hero (yeah, the guy we are supposed to relate to) being a beneficiary of slavery is no big deal, of course. 2. "Do you agree that it was the author that set the story up, so that it was in the MC's best interest to participate in slavery?" YES. Take out slavery and what do you have: A lone hero without a means of effectively leveling up. Guess what's included in this story setup: THE SHIELD. If your going to question the setup of slavery, you may as well question the setup of a defensive weapon being useful. The thing is, at one point, the slave could become just a party member, no problem, except the author doesn't want it and again he does make it "obligatory" to keep the slave status for the female. Again, I think it has more to do with the fetish of the devoted female than the author being pro-slavery, but it is nonetheless a lame plot-device. |
Ysad_ZiwezhanJan 14, 2019 12:19 AM
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