Suisei no Gargantia Episode 2 Discussion

Zageroth said:


I agree, i think that the problem is not that he killed them, but rather that he killed them so easily and quickly, they will see him as a dangerous threat as well as a potential ally. After all, he could literally wipe them out in an instant if he wished.

Omnicast said:
@ alduren

Seam should be seem.

Sentence: "His hands were slender and he didn't seam so manly"

Change it to: "His hands were slender and he didn't seem so manly"

The seam you used refers to a line inbetween fabric or other material that was sewn together. "

spectlze said:
Dude seriously just typing that message once was enough.

alduren said:
I feel your translation is a bit off, and start to become a new conversation than what is said just to explain the reaction a bit.

alduren said:

Everything points towards a fleet that consists of multiple ship owners that looks out for their own people and ship. It's very possible they could switch fleets for profit, right?

alduren said:
If you remember, Bellows were offered to join the pirate group since their leader had a high opinion of her.
Chamber sounded like he wanted them to participate in his fleet's alliance, that's what I think got Ridget mad. An intruder suddenly appears and tells you, participate in the alliance. Of course you think about fleet alliances if you never seen anything else but ships your entire life.

Artorias said:
Paper thin plot, but could be neat. Will watch for now

symbv said:
How paper thin is it? And what is a plot that is not paper-thin if we do not look at some multiple-cour series?

symbv said:
How paper thin is it? And what is a plot that is not paper-thin if we do not look at some multiple-cour series?

Artorias said:
Dude got sucked through a wormhole and was not on course with his ship. 99% guarantee that time travel will come into the story at some point, and he will be conflicted whether to go back or not once he can.

Artorias said:
Calling it now, easy to see through. Never said it wouldn't be enjoyable, but the edges you people jump to once someone says something disagreeable is saddening.

Artorias said:

Dude got sucked through a wormhole and was not on course with his ship. 99% guarantee that time travel will come into the story at some point, and he will be conflicted whether to go back or not once he can.


Calling it now, easy to see through. Never said it wouldn't be enjoyable, but the edges you people jump to once someone says something disagreeable is saddening.

Rukia13 said:
And to think I was going to pass on this one! I am so glad that I checked this out.

I wouldn't call it a paper-thin plot. There are several directions they can go with this. Will the Alliance show up? With the Hideauze? Will they find land? Will Ledo have a harem? How bad will his PTSD be? Will Chamber run out of juice? Will other factions gang up on Ledo's hosts because the pirates got vaporized?

Artorias said:

Dude got sucked through a wormhole and was not on course with his ship. 99% guarantee that time travel will come into the story at some point, and he will be conflicted whether to go back or not once he can.


Calling it now, easy to see through. Never said it wouldn't be enjoyable, but the edges you people jump to once someone says something disagreeable is saddening.

Rukia13 said:
And to think I was going to pass on this one! I am so glad that I checked this out.

I wouldn't call it a paper-thin plot. There are several directions they can go with this. Will the Alliance show up? With the Hideauze? Will they find land? Will Ledo have a harem? How bad will his PTSD be? Will Chamber run out of juice? Will other factions gang up on Ledo's hosts because the pirates got vaporized?

Shaduge said:
watch them complain about being saved like that, when they would have gotten raped in a few more minutes, can see the annoyance coming next episode
definitely an interesting anime, would have been better if it went for more than just one season

symbv said:
I don't know why you feel my translation is a bit off. If anything, I would say "Join" is better than "Participate" because the tone is definitely sounding more like a demand or request. Even though 加入 can mean "participate" too I think "join" is better in the context, and it will also explain the reactions of those people of Gargantia better.


No objection to that, as this is what I think too.

That is also what I think too, but how does that makes my translation to be "a bit off"??

alduren said:
Because I'm fairly sure you are just changing words to make your own unique translation, at the cost of making it too far from what's being said. There is really no sense in the change for the first part of the sentence, you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example.

alduren said:
The reason Ridget got upset is still the talk about an alliance who wants them in some way.

symbv said:
I don't know why you feel my translation is a bit off. If anything, I would say "Join" is better than "Participate" because the tone is definitely sounding more like a demand or request. Even though 加入 can mean "participate" too I think "join" is better in the context, and it will also explain the reactions of those people of Gargantia better.


No objection to that, as this is what I think too.

That is also what I think too, but how does that makes my translation to be "a bit off"??

Artorias said:
Paper thin plot, but could be neat. Will watch for now

AnimageNeby said:
I know you know Japanese too, but let's not get into an endless discussion about minute variations that largely depend on taste, without any being outright wrong or right. That said, symbv, it WAS alduren who made the effort of the translation, so he has the last word on his own translation and in the end I rather have an interpretation that actually is viewable as sub, than an interpretation that is nowhere to be found except as meta-talk in a forum (meritocratic- approach). You could always make the next sub, if you want. :-)

AnimageNeby said:
Let's just say both of your versions could be acceptable as translation, but what is considered 'best' is largely up to taste. In which case a discussion about it seems largely useless, and an actual sub is better than a discussion about a sub. ;-)

Artorias said:

Dude got sucked through a wormhole and was not on course with his ship. 99% guarantee that time travel will come into the story at some point, and he will be conflicted whether to go back or not once he can.

Calling it now, easy to see through. Never said it wouldn't be enjoyable, but the edges you people jump to once someone says something disagreeable is saddening.

symbv said:
You sound that I am pushing him to take my translation, which could not be further from the truth. I have no issue with alduren's translation. If he wants to stick with "human comrade" instead of "compatriot human race" I would not push it. But what I sense is that my translation is being belittled when he said my translation is off, and then proceed to comment how my translation "making it too far from what's being said". And since my translation was made in reference to his translation of "You are human comrade. Participate the Alliance" so I don't even know where his saying that "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example" came from. And regarding "join" vs "participate" again I did not demand he take "join" and I am fine with him using "participate" but I sense condescension when he said "but I've seen good subs use stranger choices" implying my choice to use "join" is strange.

To summarize, I am NOT saying he made incorrect translation and I am NOT demanding him to use my translation in his subtitle. I am just unhappy and puzzled at why I was told that I "change words to make a unique translation" and my translation is off, strange, incomplete or misguided.

But that is clearly not what alduren seems to be saying. For some reason he is saying my translation is inferior, which really jars and puzzles me in equal measure.

AnimageNeby said:
My point is: sometimes, it's just better to be tolerant and keep it amiable and light, even if one has some slight misgivings what someone said at a given point.

Takuan_Soho said:


You really need to read more science fiction if you think that wormhole travel requires time travel.

Also, please pay attention. Episode 2 already revealed that he did not go back in time. The space humans left because of the ice age, Amy already has revealed that the ice had melted long ago and that her people were the remnants of those who didn't leave. They are temporally concurrent. The only "time travel" Ledo did was through cryogenics - the six months of "life" he lost while Chamber repaired him.

As for edges: I think nearly everyone would dislike a person who "upon a tete-a-tete insist" and then state a negative opinion without even bothering to justify their opinion. There is a word for such people: bores. (there is a more graphic word as well: a$$holes), which is why "none of them be missed. I am sure they won't be missed".

symbv said:
So your main complaint about my translation is about the first part of the sentence, right? You agree that join is at least as valid as participate, right? (even though you imply that using "join" is strange when you said "but I've seen good subs use stranger choices" which to be honest I find condescending).

For the first part of the sentence, if my translation is off, then I would say that your first translation as "You are human comrade" is just as off if not more. I changed it to "You are compatriot human race" which you said is off and you changed your original translation to "You guys/people are brethren of humanity". However I don't see how my translation is making it too far from what is being said. The first part of the sentence is all about how to translate the word 人類同胞. Comrade is off I think, and from what I see Compatriot and Brethren are both as good as a translation, so what made you say that my translation is "making it too far from what's being said" and I am "just changing words to make [my] own translation"??. Also, both your translation and mine leave out who chamber speaks towards (because the part of the dialogue I translated never touched that part and I never aimed to translate the whole dialogue - my first post was only directed to your translation "You are human comrade. Participate the Alliance" and nothing more, so what is your point of saying "you even leave out who chamber speaks towards for example"?


I don't think I ever dispute that. And I don't see how my translation does not fit with that.

AnimageNeby said:
Well... while I don't agree with the 'paper thin plot' - for the simple reason it's much too early to say, and the premise looks interesting, in any case, so it has potential for a great plot, one should be wary to make final conclusions that aren't substantiated.

It's true that we know for sure he was 'displaced' in space; he's gone to a totally different area of the Galaxy. That, however, does not mean on itself that he *also* can't be displaced in time, in another era. Yes, the glaciers melted, so he did not return to a time before that happened: of that, we can be sure. But one can reasonably assume a long period is possible to return to, and still being put hundreds of years back. It can still be a far-away past in regard to when he had his fight (or even the future, in fact). There is currently no strong indication of that, but it still is a definite possibility.

And maybe there are some slight implied scenes that *might* indicate this: for instance; he's been sending out a signal, presumably for six months, without any reaction of the Alliance. One would think this strange, unless there was no Alliance. His AI, while being able to immediately recognise through sky-observations that it was Earth, seems to have extra-ordinary difficulty in pinpointing it any further, even after a far longer nightly observation of the stars. Is that only due to the atmosphere...or could it be he has extra difficulty, because the positions of these stars have changed (because of the time-gap)?

It's worth thinking about it.

alduren said:
You are aware that the first translation I did was changed, but you still bring the old translation up, just to find something wrong. Well played, sir

alduren said:
And to be honest, I prefer my old translation that seems more simple and also have a much better feeling as a crowd addressing sentence, since chamber did address the crowd.

alduren said:
Your sentence does not flow or fit what's being said more than my oldest translation, and my newest translation beats it by a lot. It's not a matter of taste, it's just your use of words that are not correct.

alduren said:
But compatriot I have actually seen one time before, and I remember it being more like doukoku and not douhou. Maybe someone japanese can confirm this, but I think they are two totally different words and meanings, just like they are in English, since compatriot is lesser and brethren is broader, right?

alduren said:
Like I said before i'm not a native english or japanese speaker, but I strongly feel that compatriot human race is off even if we don't count the crowd addressing matter.

symbv said:
If you had said that at the beginning I would have felt much better, but instead your post pointed the finger against me as if I was the guy who is being unreasonable and fussy. If you want such fussiness to stop, why not make a post to address alduren instead of posting again to address me, this time asking me to just take it easy after all?

And your post saddened me because it seems to me you are posting without reading the posts closely (reminding me of the time when you refused to believe that I quoted from several posts not just one post of yours in that Shinsekai Yori thread).

Takuan_Soho said:


If I may interject, Symbv, I think you are missing this point. Neither of you are native English or Japanese speakers, so Alduren wasn't knocking your English. I think he meant he liked his translation better than yours. Which is a personal thing.

However speaking AS a native English speaker with some knowledge of Japanese, let me compliment both of you on the excellence of both English and Japanese. I wish most native speakers had your level of competency.

AnimageNeby said:
For instance, did you consider the possibility that your comments to Alduren might be considered as unduly criticism and slightly belittling to him, when you tried to 'improve' his translation?

AnimageNeby said:
Also, since it's a matter of taste - while one could say all translations conform the dictionary are valid - the fact of the matter remains that the personal appreciation of certain translations may differ. So Alduren might be right (and you too in reverse, for that matter) if he thinks your translation is less good or more strange, because in his personal opinion, it feels (aka: taste) that way. Just like you think 'join' is a little bit better than 'participate'. If you didn't, you wouldn't have suggested it, I presume. Right?

AnimageNeby said:
. How could you possibly have missed my conclusion, if you read my post? It was not like you were answering *other* posts in between the paragraphs that you quoted and answered from me, after all. And if you didn't miss it, it certainly has all the hallmarks of being sarcastic/condescending, since it implies that it's very surprising I would come to the right conclusion myself, and that on itself was worthy of appraisal from you. And that, after you wrote exactly the same thing on the first paragraph, that I wrote in my conclusion, so that would make it double sarcastic.

Takuan_Soho said:
If I may interject, Symbv, I think you are missing this point. Neither of you are native English or Japanese speakers, so Alduren wasn't knocking your English. I think he meant he liked his translation better than yours. Which is a personal thing.

symbv said:
The reason why I brought it up is because my translation was made only in reply to your first translation, nothing more.

How does the word 'comrade" give a better feeling than "compatriot" or "brethren"? Why is it simpler? Besides, the word "comrade" does not really convey the exact meaning of 同胞.

In what way, may I ask? You keep repeating that my translation is off and incorrect but you never explain why it is so. At least not until now.

You can check a Japanese-English dictionary, 同胞 can be translated as brethren as well as compatriot. And this word has been translated as such in newspapers and magazines. I do not understand how you could assert that my translation is incorrect.

symbv said:
This is fine, but I am pretty upset by his choice of words to express his preference of his translation -- why use words like "off" "strange" "not correct" "beat [your translation] by a lot" just to say he prefers his translation? Why there is a need to belittle another person's translation in order to show his preference for his own translation? I prefer my own translation but I did not, and would not, want to use those words to highlight my preference.

symbv said:
This is fine, but I am pretty upset by his choice of words to express his preference of his translation -- why use words like "off" "strange" "not correct" "beat [your translation] by a lot" just to say he prefers his translation? Why there is a need to belittle another person's translation in order to show his preference for his own translation? I prefer my own translation but I did not, and would not, want to use those words to highlight my preference.

alduren said:
Well, I meant I prefer my oldest translation compared to your new.
My newest translation is good and I would use that one before the other.

alduren said:
Again, I must say that brethren holds a broader meaning vs compatriot, and that they would probably phrase it differently if they intended to use compatriot. The compatriot you are thinking of must be something like, our countrymen?

alduren said:
That's doukoku min ?(don't know the correct japanese but that's how it sounds)
I have only seen the use of that as countrymen, fellow countrymen etc. And frequently too, in horriblesubs and gg and commie I think, I can double check if you don't know what i'm talking about :p

alduren said:

Compatriot is referring to countrymen or colleague / equals with the same work line or place, right? I'm fairly sure it's pronounced in another way.

alduren said:
And last, with addressing I meant the use of kikunra in the start.
He is addressing them as you people - something I assumed includes itself by the use of comrades, as comrades are are type friend/people extension, your sentence is regardless of right or wrong very stiff and does not include the use of kikunra.

alduren said:

So I guess all in all.
The reasons I feel your translation is off a bit ( and I mean a bit, not super much).
Is 1) No feeling of using the pronoun of kikunra
2) using compatriot human race (Lesser meaning than brethren, different japanese pronunciation.)

alduren said:
and tbh, that was a really funny excuse to bring up old translation, since you original reply was done to/vs it?
Does that matter when i changed it already, and you made 2 replies after i already changed it, and you are well aware of the fact we were now talking about an updated translation I made? No need to answer, we both know you had to look way back to have anything to complain against.

alduren said:
First time, I used the term off to explain the 2 points mentioned earlier, I should have been more specific. Later on you were very rude to bring up old translation I already changed, and my response was a reply to that.

alduren said:

Your translation was the only one on all sites I'm active at that I had a problem with so far, and I really meant it as someone who likes to translate, not intending to look down on you.

symbv said:
Well, if this is the case, alduren should have said so (like I do now) and we could all have come clear on it. Instead he proceeded to come back at me with disproportionately more belittlement with words like "off" "not correct" "strange". Did I use those words in my first post?

Well, I suggest you read really close and compare what I wrote and what he wrote. I said I am fine with both translations despite my preference of my translation. It was him who are using words like "off" "strange" "not correct" against my translation. He even said it is not a matter of taste, so your very first statement that "since it's a matter of taste" is already invalid in his view. Now why you still come after me on the matter?


OK, if you want to go back to that old incident, let's lay it all out in open here. The fact is I made my reply to your several posts one by one without reading them all -- I read your posts in chronological order; read one post then wrote a reply, read another and then wrote more, and so on . And only at the last moment I saw your conclusion. I got a feeling that perhaps you would point out that I missed your conclusion if I did not address that, so I wrote that part as a light-hearted statement that I was happy that you and I seemed to reach a similar conclusion after all. However, I did not bother changing the part I already wrote in reply to your earlier posts. I did not know you would be so upset by that light-hearted statement. On the other hand, I am pretty pissed when you said I only quoted from one post of yours not several posts as it seems you did not really check the text I quoted from your posts and just assumed I must have meant ill in the whole thing.

AnimageNeby said:
? That doesn't make much sense. You didn't quote or answered other posts between the quotes of my post.

Wait...are we thinking about the same thing when using the term 'post'? For me, a post is the whole 'page', not a paragraph. Do you mean you read it only paragraph-by-paragraph, and not the whole post? That's what I find a bit unlikely: normally, one would read the whole post (aka page) at once, before answering, wouldn't one?

AnimageNeby said:

And not to take sides here, and I'm not saying the literal translation to it is faulty, but I find the sentence 'compatriot human race' a bit awkward too. I think it sounds better as human comrades or even brethern (sounds a bit 'clergy'/sectarian though...would that simply be 'brothers', or the solemn referral to the members of a profession/society/sect?).

Of course; the awkwardness might be what was intended, for chambers 'machine translation', so it might still fit in the context that it was used, but if it was a human saying it in normal talk, I definitely wouldn't use it.

symbv said:
I never ask you not to.

Not necessarily, as I said, compatriot can mean people coming from the same place.

As I said why not check a Japanese-English dictionary and see what word can 同胞 be translated to? Also in Japanese media, even "fellow countrymen" is seldom written as 同国 but phrases like 我国同胞 instead. And the word 同胞 has a couple of ways for translation, brethren and compatriot are just two of the possibilities. I do not care how other English subs translate, I speak from my experience reading Japanese newspapers, books and magazines over the years when I was living in Japan.


As I said, compatriot can mean people coming from the same place too.

Kikunra 貴君ら is just a way to address a second-person with a slight respectful politeness level. It does not convey any sense of "brother in arms" like in "comrades". It is used more as a kind of formal address, which befits the situation where Chamber found itself in.

And I have explained.
1) Kikunra is not really how you interpreted (as comrades)
2) 同胞 definitely can be translated as compatriot and the word compatriot has meaning that fits in the context of the conversation.

I don't know what you mean by "you original reply was done to/vs it" so even if I want to reply I can't reply. Anyway, I can clarify again what I mean: You were saying my translation did not include the part addressing the commander and I brought up your first translation because that translation did not include it either.

Anyway I am not happy you used "a really funny excuse" to describe my explanation as I sense a strong desire to mock and dismiss.

symbv said:
OK, I know sometimes we have different definitions of certain words (like "accepting" the Sybil system in Psycho-Pass where your definition still puzzles me) but anyway this may or may not be the case, so let me clarify even more:

You posted 4 posts before I came to that thread
I read your first post, wrote something on my reply post (there is always just one reply post)
I read your second post, wrote something more in that same reply post
I read your third post, I forgot whether I wrote anything, probably not
I read your last post, which had your conclusion, and I wrote the final light-hearted comment
I did not make changes to things I had already written and I submitted the post

Clear? Or still incredulous?

I can accept a comment saying it sounds awkward, but I am unhappy to be told that it is off, incorrect, wrong or much inferior. Comrades may sound better, but translating 同胞 as comrades changes the meaning subtly - here Chamber used 同胞 to appeal to the Gargantia crew their common origin as human race. Brethren and Compatriot fit that meaning; Comrades sound like an appeal to commonness in cause or belief.

Actually come to think of it, I guess "fellow human" or "fellow human race" would be good if "compatriot" sounds awkward (though not incorrect I must stress)

alduren said:
You bring up old translation I already changed in response to your earlier replies.
And keep on repeating old stuff to have anything to find wrong at all.
And keep on bringing it up post after post...

alduren said:

It's rude, and not relevant to bring up things that I have already admitted are worse than than the translation I replied back to you later.

alduren said:

Kikunra is not a way of addressing a 2nd person with respect.
It's multiple people addressing and you are referring to them as your lower or at the most equals, it's not polite.
Using only Kikun is addressing a 2nd person, and still not polite or any level of respect.

alduren said:

What I meant was that the use of multiple addressing should be included in the full sentence. I have never intended the word comrades to be kikunra. I meant that in the full english sentence that, the flow of multiple people being addressed at that time is present.

alduren said:

You are rude, and you refuse to admit anything in your translation can be an error, to the point that you ignore my current translation and go for attacking the old one multiple times.

alduren said:
But now you should know that he chamber is addressing multiple people with kikunra.

alduren said:
I asked on irc and 2 japanese people told me that human brethren is better, and that compatriot is not what is being said, but tbh I can't vouch for if they are good at this or not, just 2x random people. I don't know what else to confirm it by, I'm fairly sure now that it's not the word intended.

alduren said:

And that the word means something else from brethren in english, there is no doubt about that.