Anime/Manga/Character Relations- What anime do you think is feminist/girl-positive?

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Aug 2009

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I see. Now I am actually interested into seeing the continuation of Attack on Titan, so I can judge it for myself. Especially development of Ymir's and Christa's characters. Well, I'm confident there's going to be a second season, so I'll just wait and see.

metamorphiusJan 30, 2014 11:37 AM

Feb 2, 2014 12:51 AM

#124

Sapewloth

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Jan 2014

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Just to add my two cents on what has been said about Mikasa : I have to agree with nevermore'. As a manga reader myself, I do realize that some very small yet very important bits of Mikasa's characterisation do not appear in the anime adaptation, which is kind of a problem for a character like hers (since she's not far from an antisocial, nearly every single interaction with someone other than Eren or inner thought that is not directly related to him often counts as actual character development), and that the manga itself really didn't use her to her full potential, at least not yet. However, it's been shown more than once in the anime that she's not a weak-willed character :

All in all, I also agree that there's still much room for more character growth and potential for her to become a true badass, but I wouldn't say she's not strong-willed/empowering or not well-developped at all (even though she might not be the easiest character to relate to).
Just realised she was already in the character relations; all that rambling was for nothing.

Also, Attack on Titan in my opinion as a whole deserves at least some sort of credit for offering its viewers a perctly gender-neutral world, with some cases of reversed tropes (Hanji the mad scientist -even though she has officially 'no gender'-, Mikasa as the protector, Eren as Princess Peach etc.) and female characters having significant roles in story or being given the spotlight (Female Titan, Christa & Ymir later on, even Sasha to a certain extent), which is infuriatingly a rarity for a shounen anime. It might not directly tackle the issue of gender roles, but it's still refreshing to see an anime that tells you that when mankind is threatened, everyone must fight, regardless of their gender.

Also about Madoka Magica and Amberleh's explanation in page 6 why it doesn't belong to the relations list:

Amberleh said:
@ Thewaifu- I went and talked Madoka over with our resident Madoka fangirl and a couple of other male friends, and we came to the conclusion again that it really has no place on our relations. The fact that

There were other problems as well, but either way, Madoka does not belong on our list. Sorry.

@feisty
I have not seen or read either of those series, so I will let someone else who has comment on that. =)

1) I wholeheartedly agree with the first statement. I was not pleased at all when I heard Kyubey give that BS reason. Even taking into account the societal norms and expectations to which women are subject at a very young age, which could 'somewhat' explain their fluctuation between hope and despair, it still dismisses boys' as 'less emotional' or more stable when teen suicide statistics alone speak for themselves: teenage boys are subject to a lot pressure as well. I could have somehow forgiven the show if there had been the mention of at least one case of mahou shounen, and if the explanation had been less insulting overall. But yeah...
2) That's where I have to disagree. First of all, Kyuubey's end goal is to turn the girls into witches. For that he/she/it uses different kinds of speech techniques to manipulate the girls into making the contract with him/her/it. The dreams and hopes the girls had were fulfilled by an external party, in exchange for becoming magical girls. They had a price to pay, and in the case of Madoka and Sayaka (in the first episodes) Mami warned them about it and encouraged them to ask themselves if it was really worth it before making their decision. They were not punished for having those hopes and dreams; they paid a price to see fulfilled the hopes and dreams they thought they could not fulfill by their own power. Kyuubey is to blame for hiding the truth about how great that price actually was, not the show in itself. It's more about being equivalent exchange (between hope and despair) and being careful what one wishes (the 'selfless wish made for selfish reasons' mentioned by Mami, 'cause at the end of the day even a wish made for a loved one implies at least a tiny part of selfishness from the wishmaker) for than about 'punishment' per se, in my opinion. Although I could understand the qualms one might had about that particular setting if the show's actual message was that young girls all over just keep on sacrificing themselves and turning into monsters for some BS greater cause, the ending is basically saying 'F*ck it, we deserve better than that!' to that idea. You must've realised it's all about the power of love and friendship, in the end. Homura's devotion and unbreakable will to change destiny and Madoka's ultimate selfless wish (a selfless wish made for a selfless reason) saved the town from Walpurgisnacht and all the mahou shoujo from the grim fate of turning into witches. The world is still fucked up and evil didn't disappear just thanks to Madoka's wish; mahou shoujo are still fighting (wraiths, personifications of humans' curses) but they won't turn into witches anymore and bring misfortune into the world by creating an endless vicious circle of despair. Their decisions and fate as mahou shoujo affect nothing but them.
Madoka, equated with the ultimate figure of selflessness in christianism, Jesus Christ, is forever watching over the mahou shoujo/young girls all around the world and taking their burden onto her shoulders, in the very same manner of J.C. forever watching over mankind and taking the weigh of their sins onto his shoulders.
That's a pretty freaking positive message, if you ask me.
3) Now about the powerful women in history: if you paid attention to the beginning of episode 11, Kyuubey explains to Homura the nature of a Mahou Shoujo's potential. According to him/her/it, a MS's potential comes from her karmic destiny, which is why Kyuubey is confused about the source of Madoka's power: because she's not a queen or a savior, but just an ordinary girl. If she was actually destined to do great things/was a powerful women to begin with, Kyuubey would have understood earlier why she had such a impossible potential.
What I'm trying to say is that I think you and your peers have been mixing cause and effect: incubators chose certain women precisely because they had power/a great destiny ('queens and saviors tend to bring misfortune' , not the other way around. Because of their great karmic destiny, they were bound to bring great hope (and an equivalent amount of despair) to the world. It's only natural for incubators to get close to a queen/future queen like Cleopatra or a figure of hope like Jeanne d'Arc rather than a random peasant (i.e. QB clearly showing more interest in turning Madoka into a witch than Sayaka, for example). What they wished for when they made a contract with QB, we'll never know. But one thing we can be sure of (QB said it him/her/itself) however, is that those women were the ones that set evolution of mankind in motion and then pushed it forward : if it weren't for the mahou shoujo, humans would still be living in caves. If you think about it, it's actually pretty sexist towards men, since QB basically denies any part they could have had in our evolution, lol.

Sorry for the huge rant and thanks in advance for reading ^^.

Now about a suggestion that I have for the character relations list: it would be Rin Tohsaka, from the Fate/ franchise. I think she's notable for being a pretty girl-positive character exactly because the Fate/ franchise as a whole is really sexist, especially with its own mascot (I'm looking at you F/SN Saber).
Please take note that I'm mostly speaking from the VN, since I don't really remember the anime adaptation (f*ck you DEEN) and I didn't see (and never intend to) the Unlimited Blade Works movie. Sorry in advance for the rant:

To me, she's the prime example of a tsundere done right: she's not by any means defined by her 'tsundery', she has many other traits that can be considered girl-positive or to a certain extent empowering. She ocasionnally throws some tsunderie, but mostly when she's caught off guard (by a totally unexpected compliment for example) and she doesn't physically abuses anyone for the sake of showing how much of a tsundere she is. She's an honor student that excels in pretty much every domain, be it academics or sports. She's admired by many people in her school precisely, and particularly Shirou, for this exact reason: because she's excels at everything she does. When Shirou talks about Tohsaka, unlike the other heroines like Saber (in her own route, in the two others they don't get close enough for that to happen, and Shirou is overall less stupid UBW and HF -thank god!-), Sakura or Illya, towards whom he immediately and almost instinctively adopts a very protective and somewhat paternalistic attitude, 'admire' is one of the words that'll come up most.
We already catch a glimpse of her potential for greatness in the Fate route but it's only in Unlimited Blade Works, where the story revolves around her, Archer and Shirou that she really gets to shine.
As the sexist that he is, Shirou has a whole set of preconcieved ideas about women and in general (him often assuming that they're emotionally weaker, which is infuriating. Or that they should like cute stuff, are supposed to be 'feminine' etc. One very interesting things about his sexism is how he percieves women who do not fit into those roles or characteristics: Taiga Fujimura for example that he never really saw as a woman to begin with, because of her excentricity or Ayako Mitsuzuri who's too 'tomboyish'). And it all comes crashing against the wall of Tohsaka's existence. She's a confident, skilled and competitive magus, strong mentally and physically, as well as capable of handling herself without Shirou's manly help (he actually knows he can rely on her ability to come up with good plans and getting them out of dangerous situations. I also remember one time where they even argued about who should have attacked first after an enemy they were supposed to fight leaves). He's forced to acknowledge her as a very valuable partner that pretty much outshines him in every aspect and possibly doesn't even need his help.
Shirou's still sexist in UBW, though. But when he openly makes an awfully sexist comment about a certain girl (Mitsuzuri), Rin calls him out on it, by simply suggesting she would repeat what he said to her. Shirou thinks of girls as emotionally weaker, so it's good surprise when Tohsaka actually reassures him that her cool-headed, detached, unemotional and serious self is not just a mask she puts on to 'appear' stronger but a part of her just as much as being an energetic, lively and teasing person is.
On top of that, the relationship she develops with a Shirou in UBW feels genuinely real and compelling : unlike the Saber route for example, both of them have something to learn from the other and influence each other's life in a good way.
Rin Tohsaka is not perfect; she's kind of selfish and has a bad habit of screwing up only at the most crucial times, but that's part of what makes her in my opinion as an interesting and well-rounded character that can also be girl-positive to a certain degree.

Oh my, all that text...

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Kellhus said:

GuusWayne said:
there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief

And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat.

Feb 2, 2014 1:43 AM

#125

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Nov 2011

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Okay I type walls of text, but uh, damn. You might want to learn to trim down a bit.

I am never, EVER adding a character from the Fate franchise. It is just not going to happen. Rin was also sexualized as a little girl in Fate/Zero- There was a scene where they made it look like she was having an orgasm, AS A LITTLE GIRL.

But in general I really don't want to add characters from super sexist series, because then it gives off the idea that the series is okay. I have some characters on there whose series are not on the list, but their series are not sexist but may just not be list-worthy.

AmberlehFeb 2, 2014 1:47 AM

Feb 2, 2014 1:48 AM

#126

Sapewloth

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Jan 2014

10464

Amberleh said:
Okay I type walls of text, but uh, damn. You might want to learn to trim down a bit.

I am never, EVER adding a character from the Fate franchise. It is just not going to happen. Rin was also sexualized as a little girl in Fate/Zero- There was a scene where they made it look like she was having an orgasm, AS A LITTLE GIRL.

Wut ? When ?

EDIT: I was about to say that I made a clear distinction between the character and the franchise she's attached to, but then I saw your edit. Said like that I understand why adding any character, even if it's Tohsaka from a franchise like Fate/ would be problematic.

What about PMMM, though?

SapewlothFeb 2, 2014 2:24 AM

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Kellhus said:

GuusWayne said:
there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief

And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat.

Feb 2, 2014 1:54 AM

#127

workwork

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Jan 2013

God, the F/SN VN... Rin was a pretty good character, though. Sort of.

unlike the protagonist

Feb 2, 2014 2:44 AM

#128

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Nov 2011

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Madoka was discussed with multiple parties, multiple times, and is not going to be added. Everyone has their own opinions on it I'm sure but it was the unanimous decision of the club admins and some other people I trust to not add Madoka so I'm afraid it will stay as such. Also, the movies, from what I have heard, do lolicon pandering, leading me to believe that there was never any feminist intention in the series to begin with (that and the director is Urobutcher). But that's more of a side note.

Again, just because we don't add a series does not mean it's a bad series, same way that just because a series gets added does not mean it's a good series. Madoka has too much gray area and too many differing opinions on its contents in regards to sexism so I just can't add it.

Seeing as it has now been brought up three times, I would like to ask that we stop trying to bring Madoka up. It will not be added. Thanks =)

Feb 2, 2014 2:53 AM

#129

Sapewloth

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Jan 2014

10464

Okay no prob. I can now move on and proceed to look for some other really girl-positive stuff to be added :)

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Kellhus said:

GuusWayne said:
there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief

And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat.

Feb 2, 2014 4:19 AM

#130

Earwen

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Dec 2007

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workwork said:
God, the F/SN VN... Rin was a pretty good character, though. Sort of.

unlike the protagonist

Yup. As much as I hate the rest of the cast and the VN itself, Rin was great. I thought she'd be another generic violent tsundere. I was pleasantly surprised.

Feb 2, 2014 4:29 PM

#131

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Dec 2013

Hey , how come gintama isn't in the club relations ?I mean it has an awesome female lead (plus she is not your mainstream big boob badass )and tons of other female characters who are independent & strong.

Sorry if this has already been discussed , I couldn't find anything on it so I thought I'd share my thoughts with you guys ..

Feb 2, 2014 11:29 PM

#132

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Nov 2011

2817

Never seen Gintama myself so I wouldn't know anything about it's characters.

Anyone else who's seen it have any thoughts?

Feb 3, 2014 1:04 AM

#133

Tongue

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Mar 2012

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I have mixed feelings about Gintama. It definitely does have a lot of strong female characters who stand on equal footing with the male leads and has minimal fanservice, but some of the episodes are really questionable for some sexist scenes, but mainly due to the fact that the series rides on anime parodies. Like there's one episode I'd describe, but I feel uncomfortable doing so haha. But really, that's probably the only reason I can think of about why Gintama can't be considered as a series relation.

A questionable character is a female ninja named Sacchan. She is depicted as a masochist and shamelessly goes after the male lead during most of her screen time. There are even BDSM scenes in the beginning of the series, but at the same time her character also shows that she's not ashamed to outwardly show her sexual desires/pervertedness. So I'm not sure about her.

Another character is Otae, who is femininely pretty but is physically aggressive and comes off as scary towards the male characters. She also can't cook for beans and her character definitely shows that she is both physically and emotionally strong. She works at a hostess bar to support her brother and herself but does not resort to relying on men for financial support (ie. does not give in to marriage proposals).

The main female character, Kagura is a tomboy with a cute face, but has an aggressive personality, is physically strong and seriously kicks ass and protects some of the male characters from time to time. She possesses a good sense of what's right and wrong, but also isn't ashamed of her over-indulgence in food and fighting. There's an older woman character who runs her own bar and often gives her own two cents of wisdom. She follows her own ideals and even gives shelter to another female character.

I could go on about many of the female characters. Despite the series parodying other anime tropes, a majority of the female characters are actually really respectable and empowering and don't follow those typical, formulaic, female characters at all.

I haven't finished the series; I'm only on the third season, but so far I really do enjoy a lot of the female characters, which is really rare for me when it comes to mainstream anime.

Feb 3, 2014 2:36 AM

#134

nevermore999

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Jan 2012

Rec Dennou Coil to anyone and everyone. I just finished it, and the majority of the cast is female and very complex, it hinges on a female friendship and ladies helping each other and is a coming-of-age story for two young girls, and lots of ladies saving the day and saving dudes in distress. I'll probably add it to my reviews.

nevermore999Feb 3, 2014 2:42 AM

Feb 3, 2014 1:24 PM

#135

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Dec 2013

kawaiipapa said:
Like there's one episode I'd describe, but I feel uncomfortable doing so haha. But really, that's probably the only reason I can think of about why Gintama can't be considered as a series relation.

I seriously can't think of the episode you're talking about ...(?)

kawaiipapa said:
A questionable character is a female ninja named Sacchan. She is depicted as a masochist and shamelessly goes after the male lead during most of her screen time. There are even BDSM scenes in the beginning of the series, but at the same time her character also shows that she's not ashamed to outwardly show her sexual desires/pervertedness. So I'm not sure about her.

I'll partly agree with you here about Sarutobi. I had mixed feelings about her too, especially in the begging it pissed me off , but I don't think that Sorachi made her a masochist because she is a woman. I can see him doing that with a male character too. It's just her personality as a character not as a female. If he had any "hate" against women I think it would show in all of his other female characters.
Ok, I don't think I'm explaining it right but I want to say that he portrays his characters (especially women) in a very realistic way (e.x kagura throws up , picks her nose while being a woman ) meaning that he sees them as humans not as flawless creatures(women don't go to the bathroom , don't curse etc. ) nor as a seriously flawed character that needs the male lead in order to be more powerful, popular etc. So there are many different personalities that he can create that are not hung up on the fact that they might or might not be female .
I hope you get what I'm trying to say ( Sorry it's late and I'm sleepy :p)

I believe that we should at least add Kagura at the character relations. I seriously see nothing anti-femist about her.

p/s: Amberleh if you ever start watching it , I'd be glad to hear your opinion .:)

Feb 4, 2014 10:40 AM

#136

Tongue

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Mar 2012

3658

@Aileenam
Haha the arc I'm talking about is probably one from the beginning of Season 3 where the group goes to compete for the new video game system, and one of the games they have to conquer is an otome game for boys. The objective was to woo the main female character to win, but one of them (idk Katsura?) seduces the mother, and then there's the scene where Sougo (I seriously don't remember) "seduces" the female character by...poking her boobs and "stimulating" her. I'd probably say that's fanservicey but it did parody otome games and how ridiculous they are.

I don't really think Sorachi shows any hatred for women. He highly respects his female characters, since he gives all the ones that have more frequent appearances very strong personalities, but I know what you mean. The other really minor female characters who only come out for like one episode are reduced to stereotypical weaker female roles, so that's the other iffy thing I have about it. But you can't really blame the mangaka for not paying attention to every small character.

As for Kagura though, one thing that gets me is that she is an Amanto/alien, and that's where her physical prowess comes from. All the other strong male leads are humans, but they're still stronger than her. There are no other human female characters who really rival Kagura's strength (maybe Kyubei, but even she ends up losing against Gintoki). Kagura would definitely be a more empowering female character if she was human.

Feb 4, 2014 4:37 PM

#137

lukanicoletta

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Jul 2011

133

Been watching Skip Beat! recently. I've been enjoying it a lot and I'm glad to see it on this list. It's pretty impressive how strong Kyouko actually is; absolutely everybody underestimates her and they're always wrong about it. It also treats the fact that she gets blamed for everything while Sho gets to go on being the "golden boy" with a lot of frankness, not to mention that I appreciate that she doesn't stay hopelessly in love with him, since he's about the biggest asshole I've seen in anime since Takumi from "Nana" (hopefully that won't happen later on).

Feb 4, 2014 6:17 PM

#138

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Nov 2011

2817

Having moments of sexism or a masochistic female character does not mean that the show is not list worthy. Fairy Tail has both of these things but has more than enough empowering characters and just spectacularly beautiful moments that it more than compensates for any shortcomings in the sexism department.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_Ptr6DYmJg

That being said, this character in particular is not on the list. But I hope that helps with the Gintama thing- If it's just the one girl who is a masochist, and there's just a couple sexist episodes, then that isn't going to disqualify it, particularly since it's a longer series with a lot of characters. I'll get around to watching it someday- I wish it had a dub, then I'd go ahead and start watching it right away, but alas =/

I'll add it though if we get a few more opinions on it.

@Sarco- I loved Skip Beat!. I thought it was incredibly empowering and I had the same concerns at first that you seem to be having, but don't worry. =)

Feb 6, 2014 2:43 PM

#139

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Dec 2013

kawaiipapa said:
@Aileenam
Haha the arc I'm talking about is probably one from the beginning of Season 3 where the group goes to compete for the new video game system, and one of the games they have to conquer is an otome game for boys. The objective was to woo the main female character to win, but one of them (idk Katsura?) seduces the mother, and then there's the scene where Sougo (I seriously don't remember) "seduces" the female character by...poking her boobs and "stimulating" her. I'd probably say that's fanservicey but it did parody otome games and how ridiculous they are.

Ok,ok I get it :p

kawaiipapa said:
As for Kagura though, one thing that gets me is that she is an Amanto/alien, and that's where her physical prowess comes from. All the other strong male leads are humans, but they're still stronger than her. There are no other human female characters who really rival Kagura's strength (maybe Kyubei, but even she ends up losing against Gintoki). Kagura would definitely be a more empowering female character if she was human..

Yes I agree with you BUT you have to see ep. 146 first because I have an objection but I don't wanna spoil anything !

Amberleh said:
I wish it had a dub, then I'd go ahead and start watching it right away, but alas =/.

I don't really think that there will ever be one :/

Anyway I do think Gintama deserves a spot but I hope we get a few more opinions ..

Feb 6, 2014 11:52 PM

#140

janse112

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Dec 2013

nevermore999 said:
Rec Dennou Coil to anyone and everyone. I just finished it, and the majority of the cast is female and very complex, it hinges on a female friendship and ladies helping each other and is a coming-of-age story for two young girls, and lots of ladies saving the day and saving dudes in distress. I'll probably add it to my reviews.

I think this is what I'll be watching next, as I've been meaning to watch it for basically forever. It doesn't seem like anyone else here has seen it, though. How many people need to agree a show is feminist for it to go on the relations?

Feb 7, 2014 12:20 AM

#141

workwork

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Jan 2013

I don't believe there is a specific number. A general consensus should suffice, I imagine. I'll watch it this weekend and give you my opinion, for what it's worth.

Feb 7, 2014 1:27 AM

#142

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Aug 2009

3452

janse112 said:
How many people need to agree a show is feminist for it to go on the relations?

One.

Feb 7, 2014 3:38 AM

#143

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Nov 2011

2817

Pffftt that's not even true, silly Meta. I tell you guys all the time you can add whatever you want, that's why you're admins. There's a lot of stuff on there I've never seen or read.

But if other people have seen it and agree that Dennou Coil is empowering I'll add it.

Feb 7, 2014 7:23 AM

#144

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Aug 2009

3452

Amberleh said:
Pffftt that's not even true, silly Meta.

Surely no one should take that reply of mine seriously as the evidence of the club management so far proves otherwise. Perhaps I should have used a smiley, but I dislike using it since I feel it ruins the joke.

Feb 14, 2014 1:38 AM

#145

LadyIo

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May 2013

Yay! Lots of anime/manga suggestions for me to follow up on. Thank you everyone so far. Also, +1 for Dennou Coil - I found it pretty empowering.

I also have a few suggestions or my own to make. (I'm pretty sure haven't been suggested yet-I've read through the pages - my apologies if I've missed something.).

First, there's Mira Lee's manhwa (Korean manga) Operation Liberate Men. Now, I know the title sort of suggests 'really non-feminist', but here's the synopsis (courtesy of Wikipedia):

It's an interesting work and it strongly questions the views of society on women. Unfortunately, the main character is a little problematic (she has a few 'damsel' moments) and the series has been on a v. long hiatus, but I still think it's worth a look.

Next, there's the Hatenkou Yuugi/Dazzle manga. For those of you who've only seen the anime - the anime is AWFUL and not like the manga. Here's a condensed synopsis (the MAL synopsis makes it sound more romantic than it is):

The main character Rhazel is awesome - she's strong but not a tsundere, and isn't rescued by her male companions all the time. The female characters she meets along the way are good too. Don't be scared away by the 'two guys, one girl' premise either - Hatenkou Yuugi focuses more on friendship and adventure than romance, although it does contain some romantic elements.

Lastly, there's Kubera, which is actually a Korean webcomic, but MAL has given it an entry so... As well as having a great story and world, Kubera features tons of awesome strong female characters - one of whom I'd really like to see on the relations list. Here's the synopsis, courtesy of 'The Company':

Don't be turned off by the 100+ chapters that the author has written. Although Kubera is a long series, it's surprisingly well-written, considering its length. The author has planned well and it shows. Absolutely worth a read - please try it!

Feb 14, 2014 11:30 AM

#146

new_user

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Feb 2008

468

LadyIo said:
(the MAL synopsis makes it sound more romantic than it is)

Hey, nothing wrong with romance! That is one of the few progressive aspects of anime and manga in comparison to other media, that romance isn't denigrated and is enjoyed by all audiences. I am definitely going to check out Operation Liberate Men! You have my interest piqued.

Feb 15, 2014 2:28 AM

#147

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Nov 2011

2817

We need to make a list of all the series that have been mentioned, as I have not really been keeping track. D8 I came through and decided to add any that had a generally positive consensus, but it's hard without an actual list.

What do people think about Kimi ni Todoke by the way? The female lead was nice but what really struck a chord with me were her two friends, how they defied normal shoujo 'best friend' tropes and were the outcast girls, one who would be labled a 'slut' and the other a 'yankee', but they got great development and were shown in an incredibly positive light.

AmberlehFeb 15, 2014 2:32 AM

Feb 17, 2014 12:27 AM

#148

Emmrys

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Dec 2011

2006

Count my vote for Kimi ni Todoke. More reasons why it should be added:

-Female friendships: Shoujo anime/manga kind of really sucks when it comes to female friendships, especially in comparison to shounen which his like ALL ABOUT [usually male-male] friendship. But Kimi ni Todoke portrays Chizu's, Ayane's, and Sawako's friendship really well--they support each other through each of their conflicts, and even the love rival is fleshed out which is also great; too often in shoujo anime/manga are the female love rivals villified right off the bat, and that is really their only characterization. Especially when compared to male love rivals in love triangles, who are almost always portrayed to be sympathetic characters. Also Chizu-chan and Yano-chan are both noteworthy characters as Amber already stated.

- Kazehaya: I do have a few issues with Kazehaya-kun, esp. in the manga portions past the end point of the anime, but I really liked that he would step back whenever Sawako had to confront drama and whatnot even when he knew about what was going on and wanted to help her--though he did also give her lots of support.
A lot of shoujo manga portrays the male love interest as someone who's able to solve all the heroine's problems, but I think of this as Shiina-sensei saying that it's important to find the strength to face your issues and move forward on your own--for your own benefit--because in real life people don't enter relationships to simply have their issues fixed, and it wouldn't be reasonable to expect that out of a significant other.

- The representation is also pretty strong. More than half the main cast (and the characters who get the most plot time) are females in the beginning, and then later on the male-female ratio is equal.

--------------------------------

Someone also brought up Tomodachi no Hanashi once in the comments, but I want to officially petition to get it added. It goes back to what I said above about female friendship and sisterhood, and this is a perfect example. If you haven't read it, go read it! It's 3 chapters!

EmmrysFeb 17, 2014 12:34 AM

Feb 17, 2014 8:25 AM

#149

lukanicoletta

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Jul 2011

133

Dennou Coil was the other show people were talking about adding, I recall.

Feb 21, 2014 12:13 AM

#150

idislikemal

Offline

Jun 2013

If Madoka isn't good enough for the relations list, then why do we have stuff that is basically all about dudes but just like, doesn't treat women like complete shit? Like FMA: Brotherhood? "Feminist-friendly", sure, but hardly something that should be celebrated as a paragon of feminism in anime! Most of the female characters are satellites to their male love interests.

I keep seeing it get pushed as "feminist" on Tumblr and places like that, and it's really frustrating. It's certainly not BAD at that stuff, but calling it "feminist" is setting an incredibly low bar, one that I, as a feminist media critic, would rather be at least a LITTLE higher.

(All this is explained better here: http://catface-mcgee.tumblr.com/post/47218034747/cut-for-feminism-and-bryke-and-arakawa-you-know-the by a friend, since it's like 3 am and I don't feel like going in depth, lol.)

ETA: I hope that doesn't come across as too aggressive. I think I just saw it on the list and it reminded me of the discussions I've had about it on Tumblr, and that kind of made me mad!

idislikemalFeb 21, 2014 12:25 AM

Feb 21, 2014 5:35 AM

#151

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Nov 2011

2817

Everyone has different opinions on things, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't get angry over what is or is not on the list.

If you have a problem with something then feel free to present it in a more constructive matter, rather than "Well this series I love isn't here so why is this other one here?!" I DO listen to what my members say and have added and removed things based on what has been discussed in the club, but the discussions were always very civil, which made me far more inclined to listen.

Madoka isn't going on the list because it has some issues in it that are sexist, and not enough empowerment to overcome that. There is also far too much gray area in it- There are a lot of things that, by some, are taken as empowering, but can also be seen as very sexist. It's just too controversial to add.

Not everyone is going to be of the same opinion, so please try to respect that. We aren't the people you talked to on tumblr, so please don't take your aggression and anger towards other people out on us. Thank you.

AmberlehFeb 21, 2014 5:40 AM

Feb 22, 2014 11:14 PM

#152

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Dec 2012

1098

Emmrys said:
Count my vote for Kimi ni Todoke. More reasons why it should be added:

-Female friendships: Shoujo anime/manga kind of really sucks when it comes to female friendships, especially in comparison to shounen which his like ALL ABOUT [usually male-male] friendship. But Kimi ni Todoke portrays Chizu's, Ayane's, and Sawako's friendship really well--they support each other through each of their conflicts, and even the love rival is fleshed out which is also great; too often in shoujo anime/manga are the female love rivals villified right off the bat, and that is really their only characterization. Especially when compared to male love rivals in love triangles, who are almost always portrayed to be sympathetic characters. Also Chizu-chan and Yano-chan are both noteworthy characters as Amber already stated.

I agree with this, I think KnT is one of the very very few shoujo that's actually decent hen it comes female portrayals. I was actually really (pleasantly) surprised to see them placing any sort of focus on this friendship (goes to show my expectation of shoujo, sadly) and actually made an effort to develop it. That was my favourite part of the show.

SailorTitan said:
Like FMA: Brotherhood? "Feminist-friendly", sure, but hardly something that should be celebrated as a paragon of feminism in anime! Most of the female characters are satellites to their male love interests.

I keep seeing it get pushed as "feminist" on Tumblr and places like that, and it's really frustrating. It's certainly not BAD at that stuff, but calling it "feminist" is setting an incredibly low bar, one that I, as a feminist media critic, would rather be at least a LITTLE higher.

Actually, I'm somewhat surprised that you seem so skeptical about FMA's feminism. Personally, I've yet to see an anime which has such good portrayal of women. As you can probably tell, I'm a fan. On the other hand, I rarely become a fan of anime that are sexist, so you could say that part of the reason I loved FMA so much is because of its female characters.

FMA, both versions, is one of very anime which actually treat male and female characters like theyr both human. While it's not completely devoid of typical anime tropes (which affect both genders in he anime) it greatly succeeds in defining the characters beyond that. It often very hard to come across so many female characters with diverse characterisations. I've read most of the stuff in that link (it was too long plus I seemed to be somewhat out of the loop) and while I can appreciate where the writer is coming from, I also think some points are looked at from only one perspective, or by analysing only one aspect.
One thing of note is that while FMA doesn't have any female main characters - strictly speaking, only Ed and Al are the protagonists - it's probably more because it a shounen manga and anime. But unlike most, it actually has very good female representation. So while I didn't actually notice that it was on the list, I now think it should be anyway (more so than Attack on Titan, which I have some issues with regarding female characters). In fact, I think the original Fullmetal Alchemist should be added as well, not only because Brotherhood has been, but also because I think it has some strong female characterisation theres, some that even surpasses Brotherhood (eg. the homunculi).

I'd like to also suggest these for the list:

Wolf Children (movie) - I think the story of a single mother is portrayed there in a very powerful manner using fantastical elements. Also develops a great mother-daughter relationship.

Whisper of the Heart (Ghibli movie) - an excellent coming-of-age story with a protagonist not unlike Kiki, but with a more realistic setting and no magic. the girl, Shizuka, is just as relatable as she is inspiring, and while there's a romantic aspect it only serves to develop her character further, rather than stunt it.

Hanasaku Iroha (series) - this show has a variety of female characters, including the protagonist, who gets very good development. one of the best point of the entire show is the family dynamics of the grandmother/mother/daughter. another is the friendship and camaraderie between the young girls depicted in the show. it's especially refreshing to see how much those 2 factors take precedence over the romantic attachments the female characters may have with the male characters. also, women of all ages and interests are portrayed in an admirable way, without confining them to stereotypes.

Canaan (series) - the very first thing that struck me about this show was the fact it consists almost entirely of a female cast! it took me almost the entire series to get used to (which is really sad) because it's so unexpected. this is definitely the strongest aspect of the show, and it also doesn't feel the need to belittle or stamp on (which can be quite literal in anime) the male characters in order make the females 'feisty' and 'strong' (an eternal thorn in my side, since it actually undermines the females).

That was kind of long. Anyway, I'm more than happy to further discuss this with anyone who wants to, and would greatly appreciate if these were considered for the list.

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Feb 23, 2014 12:29 AM

#153

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Nov 2011

2817

Wolf Children is actually sexist due to the ending, sadly. That really, really bothered me, so it's not gonna get added to the list. It was discussed earlier in the thread.

Hanasaku Iroha was on the list and I took it off because I was skeptical, but I haven't actually seen it so I guess that isn't fair. I'll ask Meta and Emmy about it.

I wasn't entirely sure about Whisper of the Heart because I thought the romance was a little silly, but it IS Miyazaki so I'll go ahead and add it.

Canaan I wasn't sure about because it's type moon and I wasn't sure if some of it was just fanservice, but I think I can see it being on the list so I'll ask some others.

I'll go ahead and add original FMA.

Thanks for your input!

Feb 23, 2014 12:44 AM

#154

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Aug 2009

3452

Amberleh said:

Hanasaku Iroha was on the list and I took it off because I was skeptical, but I haven't actually seen it so I guess that isn't fair. I'll ask Meta and Emmy about it.

Meta was rather bored by Hanasaku Iroha most of the time. I guess it just wasn't my cup of tea, as I already mentioned before. However, it's true that the anime had a relatively strong cast of female characters and it did quite a good job with developing the MC. It's been a while since I watched it and since I didn't find it memorable (especially since I it was dragging in the second half), my memory's fading away, so don't expect much from me when it comes to discussing its merits and demerits in details.
Teenage dramas are something I find harder and harder to appreciate or care for, but I can't deny the anime was mostly competent. I'm neither for nor against adding it to the list. I just don't care much, so do what you see fit.

Feb 23, 2014 1:06 AM

#155

Emmrys

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Dec 2011

2006

I think I was the one that added it(?) , and I think it was primarily for Ohana and the rest of the female cast. The entire cast is mostly all female, and all of them can either be categorized as strong, positive, or both. Ohana starts of strong and independent from having to take care of herself (in the absence of a dependable parent), but after her grandmother puts her to work she undergoes some great character development from dealing with new responsibilities to handling making new friends. Her two friends each have good development, too.

Also notable: The two major and rival inns are both ran by capable women, and there was one episode where one girl at the inn was supposed supposed to marry some guy from back home in an arranged marriage, but she decided to stay at the inn despite her parent's wishes because her work was more important to her. There's other reasons and notable instances, too, but I'd have to rewatch it.

Feb 23, 2014 1:24 AM

#156

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Dec 2012

1098

Amberleh said:
Wolf Children is actually sexist due to the ending, sadly. That really, really bothered me, so it's not gonna get added to the list. It was discussed earlier in the thread.

Could you please remind me? I've watched that movie just once and really liked it, but it was something to do with her son wasn't it?

Amberleh said:
Hanasaku Iroha was on the list and I took it off because I was skeptical, but I haven't actually seen it so I guess that isn't fair. I'll ask Meta and Emmy about it.

Since Emmrys approves of it, and you haven't seen it, I strongly suggest you consider it (and watch it!)

Amberleh said:
I wasn't entirely sure about Whisper of the Heart because I thought the romance was a little silly, but it IS Miyazaki so I'll go ahead and add it.

I think it's more important to consider her character than how you perceive the romance (in general I don't find Ghibli romance particularly enjoyable anyway), since it doesn't hinder her character development or the story. It's not Miyazaki directed though.

Amberleh said:
Canaan I wasn't sure about because it's type moon and I wasn't sure if some of it was just fanservice, but I think I can see it being on the list so I'll ask some others.

I don't remember it having any fanservice, actually. Which surprised me because I thought they would revel at the chance to utilise that sort of trope.

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Feb 23, 2014 1:27 AM

#157

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Nov 2011

2817

Amberleh said:

kawaiipapa said:
Also for anime relations, The Girl Who Leapt Through Time and Wolf Children Ame and Yuki? They're both Hosoda Mamoru films.

I feel like if you've watched either of them, they're kind of self-explanatory. Makoto in The Girl Who Leapt Through Time is pretty much the main focus and you see her grow in character as she realizes the consequences of her actions and embarks on a very unique journey. Wolf Children depicts a single mother who does her best to raise two wolf children and one of the protagonists, Yuki, is a young girl who grows up to learn about her own nature, her family, and her relationship with her friends. I think it does a wonderful job of celebrating motherhood and a mother's ability to love and appreciate her children no matter what they choose to be.

Yeaaaaahhh actually... Wolf children I uh, I loved but I had a problem with. I gave it 9/10 instead of 10/10 because it became sexist at the end. It STARTED OUT empowering, but took a huge nosedive at the end. I think a couple of my officers share the same sentiments about it as myself.

Yuki began as a really strong little girl, and Ame started out as scared. Suddenly, 2/3 of the way through their roles switched. Ame became this alpha male and Yuki turned into a typical little girl who just wanted to be liked and loved and have friends. She stopped being strong and they implied she was just going to repeat what happened to her mother- Which was fine, if her mother was the only character in the movie like that. The fact that they imply that both women have to fulfill this motherly role because they are women is very, very sexist. Oh, did I mention how they thought it would be super 'manly' to show Ame just turn away from his mother at the end instead of embracing her and talking to her? Yeah no. I think it was sexist towards men too, saying that he wasn't a real man unless he became this alpha male.

I get why you would think it's empowering, and it STARTS OUT empowering but the ending just took a huge jump into the sexism territory.

Girl Who Leapt Through Time I enjoyed but I can't say it's really empowering. She's just kind of a typical high school girl who then cries because her love is leaving her.

Rarity said:
I agree with Wolf Children. Both the female characters had to make huge sacrifices and change themselves in order to cope with what was thrown at them (Hana= sacrificing her education/career prospects for her children and Yuki =having to act more feminine in order to fit in with other girls) while Ame, who made the most selfish decision in the movie, was hailed for it. Jeez, I have so many issues with that ending.

I don't view Yuki as weak for embracing her humanity, and I'm sure that any mother would have done the same as Hana did for her children. The problem is with how the narrative contrasts the girls with Ame. I think I would have the same problem if Yuki and Ame's roles were switched too, I absolutely hated how he just turned his back on his mother who had sacrificed absolutely EVERYTHING for his and his sister's sake, and how hard she had worked for everything the family had. It was just so... ugh.

Just gonna quote the discussion on Wolf Children.

Feb 23, 2014 2:28 AM

#158

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Dec 2012

1098

I just remembered a few more for consideration:

Taisho Baseball Girls - a series about some young girls in 20's Japan trying to (*gasp*) play the men's sport and starting a team. not only is it an excellent sports anime, but it's incredibly inspirational to see how these girls go about forming their baseball team while wearing kimonos and challenging boys teams. variety of great female characters.

Kokoro Connect - I haven't yet seen this series mentioned, but it has 3 girls and 2 boys and can considered a bit of a teen psychological drama. the 3 girls are very interesting and different to each other but are good friends - a relationship that is delved into and developed a great deal.

Sora no Woto - the premise of this series is slightly strange and sci-fi, but the cast is entire female (except maybe 2 minor male characters) and is diverse. they have engaging characteristics and backstories, and the show explores the friendship between these girls.

Ouran HSHC - I'm fairly certain this must have been mentioned before, popular as it is. although it's reverse harem, it goes beyond the typical definition of a bunch of boys fawning over a pointless excuse of a female character. Haruhi is, I think, an empowering symbol for young girls and subverts a lot of female stereotypes that constantly emerges in shoujo genre.

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Feb 23, 2014 2:46 AM

#159

Rarity

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May 2012

1023

I'm actually watching Taishou Baseball Girls at the moment specifically to determine if it's worthy of being on the list. I'm not very far in but I'm really enjoying it so far. Even if it is a bit moe-moe it's a really interesting and unique anime and I love how sexism plays a huge role in the anime and that they started their team as a 'fuck you' to sexist attitudes at the time. I have to finish it first, but when I do I will definitely advocate giving it the tick of approval.

Can't speak for Kokoro Connect because I haven't seen it.

Sora no Woto is one of my favourite things ever but I'm kinda on the fence of if it belongs or not. It focuses on an all-female military unit, which is awesome, but the character's personalities are again, moe-moe and kinda shallow (some more than others, Kanata especially as the clumsy genki everygirl). I do really love the show though and there's a lot of good in it, so if others speak up in favour of adding it I would be more than happy to do so.

I think Amber is the resident Ouran fangirl and probably the best person to speak to about it, I personally didn't really care for it. Haruhi is a great character though, she isn't your typical shoujo protagonist and you could even make a pretty strong argument for her being canonically genderqueer (?) which is pretty much unheard of in anime (hell, in western works too.) I wouldn't mind adding her to the character relations.

Feb 23, 2014 2:59 AM

#160

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Nov 2011

2817

I do love Ouran quite a bit, one of my favorite manga/anime ever, but I purposely did NOT add it to the list.

There were a couple of scenes where we were reminded that "Haruhi is still a girl", very forcefully so. The beach episode is the one I'm thinking of in particular, when she's on the cliff trying to save two other girls and Tamaki says "You're still a girl you can't do that!" And she gets mad, so Kyouya pins her to the bed and says "See you're still a girl and guys can take advantage of you".

I'm not gonna add it to the sexist list either, but I didn't think it made a strong enough statement in the empowering department to be considered feminist. Plenty of other girls in the series were still treated like normal anime females. I didn't feel like Haruhi was trying to make a statement in terms of female roles in anime, but rather act as an amusing parody of reverse harem and genderbend females.

It's a good parody of reverse harems and a really great series that I absolutely love, but honestly I just don't think it qualifies for our list.

Sora no Woto I have not seen but it definitely has that moe seinen vibe to me, and I'm really against adding anything like that to the list. I would never add K-on or Lucky Star or Aria, for example.

It's hard to explain, but moe seinen are a kind of fan service, and it's a kind of fan service that REALLY irks me. It seems innocent and fluffy, but in a way it's still objectification. I'm not gonna add those series to the sexist list, but I'm sure as hell gonna keep em away from the feminist list. They are no using girls as the characters to make a statement- They are using girls because they know that's what people want to see and because they believe people can become more emotionally attatched to females and they're 'cute'.

Sorry, I just have a LOT of problems with that moe slice of life seinen stuff. I also want to reinforce that having an all female cast really doesn't mean it's feminist either. It may seem like it because there aren't men there to degrade the women in any way, but in some ways that's just a cop-out.

AmberlehFeb 23, 2014 3:08 AM

Feb 23, 2014 3:16 AM

#161

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Dec 2012

1098

Amberleh said:
There were a couple of scenes where we were reminded that "Haruhi is still a girl", very forcefully so. The beach episode is the one I'm thinking of in particular, when she's on the cliff trying to save two other girls and Tamaki says "You're still a girl you can't do that!" And she gets mad, so Kyouya pins her to the bed and says "See you're still a girl and guys can take advantage of you".

I'm not gonna add it to the sexist list either, but I didn't think it made a strong enough statement in the empowering department to be considered feminist. Plenty of other girls in the series were still treated like normal anime females. I didn't feel like Haruhi was trying to make a statement in terms of female roles in anime, but rather act as an amusing parody of reverse harem and genderbend females.

I know what you mean, and to be honest that particular episode - although I do enjoy it - kind of puts a damper on my liking for the show. I still think Haruhi is a better protagonist for the female demographic who likes shoujo, but I understand you point.

Amberleh said:
Sora no Woto I have not seen but it definitely has that moe seinen vibe to me, and I'm really against adding anything like that to the list. I would never add K-on or Lucky Star or Aria, for example.

It's hard to explain, but moe seinen are a kind of fan service, and it's a kind of fan service that REALLY irks me. It seems innocent and fluffy, but in a way it's still objectification. I'm not gonna add those series to the sexist list, but I'm sure as hell gonna keep em away from the feminist list. They are no using girls as the characters to make a statement- They are using girls because they know that's what people want to see and because they believe people can become more emotionally attatched to females and they're 'cute'.

Sorry, I just have a LOT of problems with that moe slice of life seinen stuff. I also want to reinforce that having an all female cast really doesn't mean it's feminist either. It may seem like it because there aren't men there to degrade the women in any way, but in some ways that's just a cop-out.

Everything you said agrees with my view - except Sora no Woto is not the kind of moe stuff you're thinking of. I can't stand them either and have actually avoided watching it for a long time. I'd actually suggest you read the review on its MAL page by Archaeon, which explains very articulately (without spoiling) why its so much more than its face value.

fullmetalbenderFeb 23, 2014 3:20 AM

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Feb 23, 2014 3:18 AM

#162

Emmrys

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Dec 2011

2006

Concerning Ouran- I liked Haruhi the first time I watched the series, but the second time left me with a very different impression... instead of adorable and likable, I thought she was really just dull and sometimes annoying. She's different from other heroines in the fact that she's independent, smart (yet of course dense w/ anything romance-related), and uninterested in romance, but she's so apathetic to everything to point where things are happening and she's just takes things in stride and goes with the flow because she's so apathetic.

I think Haruhi inspired many heroines like her who came after her, like Shizuku for example (Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun), but they're all the same--or worse, they'll only start to develop once they start becoming romantically interested in the love interest --like Shizuku for example. I'll find myself caring much more about a heroine who's actually emotionally invested and actively interested in her surroundings, and I personally think that those are better role models--especially if they can still be independent and smart.

Feb 23, 2014 4:53 AM

#163

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Dec 2012

1098

Yes, hello, it's me again. I kind of really like this thread and think it's a good place offer and receive recommendations, so I'm back here to suggest:

Humanity Has Declined - a unique anime with a unique main character. the premise and 'story' really brings out her brilliant oddness. she's her own person, quite an independent, clever, and cynical girl (in a sly and cynical way) with great sense of (dark) humour. it's kind of difficult to describe her or the anime, but I highly recommend watching it and judging for yourself.
(actually she reminds of Kino a tiny bit)

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Feb 23, 2014 6:00 AM

#164

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Nov 2011

2817

Nope to Humanity Has Declined.

It's not that it's sexist, but there's nothing empowering about it.

When suggesting things please try to think about whether or not it tries to tackle gender roles in any way, shape, or form. Just having females that aren't treated like crud or that have some personality doesn't mean it belongs on our list. Our list isn't just "stuff that isn't sexist'- It's specifically stuff that, in some way shape or form, breaks out of the mold in regards to gender norms or has particularly empowering characters.

Humanity Has Declined has absolutely nothing empowering about it. Again, it's certainly not sexist, and Watashi is a fun character, but she and her series don't belong on our list.

Again, our list isn't 'safe stuff', our list is stuff that is EMPOWERING. Oban Star Racers, Utena, Saiunkoku Monogatari are some of the absolute best examples of this. Compare anything you're thinking of suggesting to them first- Obviously not everything is going to be quite as groundbreaking in regards to gender roles as these ones or some of our other series/movies, but these are a good place to start for comparisons.

AmberlehFeb 23, 2014 6:06 AM

Feb 23, 2014 3:34 PM

#165

Offline

Dec 2012

1098

Amberleh said:
When suggesting things please try to think about whether or not it tries to tackle gender roles in any way, shape, or form. Just having females that aren't treated like crud or that have some personality doesn't mean it belongs on our list. Our list isn't just "stuff that isn't sexist'- It's specifically stuff that, in some way shape or form, breaks out of the mold in regards to gender norms or has particularly empowering characters.

Humanity Has Declined has absolutely nothing empowering about it. Again, it's certainly not sexist, and Watashi is a fun character, but she and her series don't belong on our list.

Well, in that case, my views would differ a little concerning what makes an empowering female character. But I suppose I can see why you'd want stuff that's more obviously so.

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Feb 24, 2014 1:16 PM

#166

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Dec 2013

I don't know if this has been discussed , but has anyone read Dengeki daisy ?I'm kind of skeptic I do think that it is somewhat sexist at times (like most anime/manga)but it has some empowering aspects about it ..
What do you guys think ?

Feb 24, 2014 4:30 PM

#167

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Nov 2011

2817

A friend of mine has mentioned Dengeki Daisy and said I'd like it because it's really feminist, but I have not read it yet. I usually trust her recs for that stuff, but her favorite series IS Elfen Lied, so part of me is wary. Hahahahaha.

Feb 24, 2014 9:49 PM

#168

new_user

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Feb 2008

468

I read Dengeki Daisy, but I'm not sure I would class it as feminist. Then again, I only read through vol. 6, and my memory's fuzzy. What did you think was empowering?

Feb 25, 2014 10:40 AM

#169