New Series from the Author of OreImo to Debut on Dengeki Bunko

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Honestly it's less the whole siscon thing (though that doesn't help) and more light novels about people that write light novels and shows for otaku that are about otaku that make me disinterested in stories like this sounds. It sometimes feels like the light novel industry is eating it's own tail practically and forever wanking to itself and it's devoted readers. I don't know maybe Otaku are so self-possessed in Japan now that they demand shows that are exclusively about people like them that make near constant reference to their sub-culture but it's kind of alienating to people like me who don't necessarily want to read/watch a story so clearly targeted at one particular sub-culture, it's memes and fetishes etc. that they don't consider themselves a part of per se.

It's almost like there's two seperate anime fanbases at this point, people that like reading stories that are their own stories and which go somewhere, and people that like reading stories that are about otaku culture and very little room for crossover between the two parties.

VioLink said:
Full synopsis:
The "new sibling romantic comedy" revolves around Masamune Izumi, a light novel author in high school. Masamune's little sister is Sagiri, a shut-in girl who hasn't left her room for an entire year. She even forces her brother to make and bring her meals when she stomps the floor. Masamune wants his sister to leave her room, because the two of them are each other's only family.

Masamune's novel illustrator, penname “Ero Manga Sensei,” draws extremely perverted drawings, and is very reliable. Masamune had never met his illustrator, and figured he was just a disgusting, perverted otaku. However, the truth is revealed … that his “Ero Manga Sensei” is his own younger sister! To add to the chaos that erupts between the siblings, a beautiful, female, best-selling shōjo manga creator becomes their rival!

mrspiral said:

Sorry they don't consider poor gaijins feelings when writing light novels lol.

Nidhoeggr said:
We do we even bother? The lowlife incest fraction will love and buy it regardless of criticism and it's not like we can change anything.
Just let them have their "fun", if we are lucky the olympics and the journalistic exposure of certain Japanese tropes will put an end to some of the biggest dreck soon enough.

So yeah: Incest, tsundere, generic, "original", otaku, pandering, yadda yadda blablabla

Kaioshin_Sama said:
Honestly it's less the whole siscon thing (though that doesn't help) and more light novels about people that write light novels and shows for otaku that are about otaku that make me disinterested in stories like this sounds. It sometimes feels like the light novel industry is eating it's own tail practically and forever wanking to itself and it's devoted readers. I don't know maybe Otaku are so self-possessed in Japan now that they demand shows that are exclusively about people like them that make near constant reference to their sub-culture but it's kind of alienating to people like me who don't necessarily want to read/watch a story so clearly targeted at one particular sub-culture, it's memes and fetishes etc. that they don't consider themselves a part of per se.

Nidhoeggr said:
You completely missed the point. Creators and fans are too close because in this niche market, the creators ARE the fans: A very small group of people that watch late night anime, that don't have the best reputation and that are only interesting in stories about themselves. It's not about "gaijins", it is about using the medium. And these people use the medium to produce the same shit over and over again. This stagnation kills creativity because the fandom of niche anime seems to be very focussed on only buying stuff that feels comfortable to them. This movement is destroying genres, destroying possibilities and is harming the medium in the longterm.

tsudecimo said:

It seems like most baka gajins people in the western fandom simply don't get that light novels are targeted towards Otakus and those Otakus don't really care for fiction with substance, the most important part to them are the characters and how appealing, interesting and likable they are, they don't exactly care if they are realistic, three dimensional or w/e. Those light novels clearly don't appeal to some people in the western fandom, yet they continue watching it and call it ''garbage'', ''trash'' etc, and basically criticize it for something it NEVER tried to do.

Not to forget that the LN industry doesn't only has this type of stories, there are other normal novels that usually sell better. So no, the LN industry is not doomed. As for the anime industry, you got to understand that Otakus are loyal fans and they will buy those expensive DVD/BD meanwhile fans of manga probably won't ( ex: Sliver spoon) so it makes sense for LN adaptions to be more prominent each season. LN adaptions can make profit from BD/DVD sales and advertisement for the original source material, manga adaptions usually only advertise the original source material and doesn't get much profit from BD/DVD sales.

mrspiral said:

Sorry they don't consider poor gaijins feelings when writing light novels lol.

tsudecimo said:

It seems like most baka gajins people in the western fandom simply don't get that light novels are targeted towards Otakus and those Otakus don't really care for fiction with substance, the most important part to them are the characters and how appealing, interesting and likable they are, they don't exactly care if they are realistic, three dimensional or w/e. Those light novels clearly don't appeal to some people in the western fandom, yet they continue watching it and call it ''garbage'', ''trash'' etc, and basically criticize it for something it NEVER tried to do.

Not to forget that the LN industry doesn't only has this type of stories, there are other normal novels that usually sell better. So no, the LN industry is not doomed. As for the anime industry, you got to understand that Otakus are loyal fans and they will buy those expensive DVD/BD meanwhile fans of manga probably won't ( ex: Sliver spoon) so it makes sense for LN adaptions to be more prominent each season. LN adaptions can make profit from BD/DVD sales and advertisement for the original source material, manga adaptions usually only advertise the original source material and doesn't get much profit from BD/DVD sales.

Nidhoeggr said:


You completely missed the point. Creators and fans are too close because in this niche market, the creators ARE the fans: A very small group of people that watch late night anime, that don't have the best reputation and that are only interesting in stories about themselves. It's not about "gaijins", it is about using the medium. And these people use the medium to produce the same shit over and over again. This stagnation kills creativity because the fandom of niche anime seems to be very focused on only buying stuff that feels comfortable to them. This movement is destroying genres, destroying possibilities and is harming the medium in the longterm.

Kaioshin_Sama said:
For example mine are really simple in terms of I probably won't enjoy a show and have cause to criticize them if they are

1. Blatantly pandering to the point where it gets in the way of whatever else it's trying to accomplish with the narrative or character interactions

2. Boring and pedantic in that they use similar setups and executions without any sort of variation on the formula that distinguishes it from it's peers in some way.

3. Wasting time for episodes on end by not showing any progression be it development of the cast, the plot moving along at a reasonable pace or the scene serving at least some purpose with regard to future events.

I don't think these are unreasonable base standards, but I assume somebody will tell me why I'm wrong and why I should just accept everything anime culture throws at me without question or meaningful commentary.

gamer2710 said:
It's only a problem if people think the direction the medium is headed is a bad thing. If you wanna make a big deal out of it, that's fine I guess, but that won't mean other people will think it is bad. And it most certainly doesn't mean that there's something wrong with the fans.

GodlyKyon said:

I'm not going to pretend this is Nobel Literature Prize level stuff here, but the series itself is formulated in a MUCH better way than most harem series I have seen. While it's not realistic to have EVERYONE in the cast to be so good looking, it does show some of the struggles in society(maybe they ditched that in season 2 though) faced by Otaku. The way each episode is presented sets up the overall story, and not just randomly shifting like a lot of the pure-fanservice series that I have seen.

Actually, there's almost no near-nudity in this series, I am going to have to say, all the criticism of the Oreimo series b/c it's moe or b/c it's incest are pretty stupid, b/c the series is pretty good one, even when compared to non-harem series.

Kaioshin_Sama said:


I think that's a pretty fair concern to have. Again I don't see what's wrong with having some baseline standards here. For example mine are really simple in terms of I probably won't enjoy a show and have cause to criticize them if they are

1. Blatantly pandering to the point where it gets in the way of whatever else it's trying to accomplish with the narrative or character interactions

2. Boring and pedantic in that they use similar setups and executions without any sort of variation on the formula that distinguishes it from it's peers in some way.

3. Wasting time for episodes on end by not showing any progression be it development of the cast, the plot moving along at a reasonable pace or the scene serving at least some purpose with regard to future events.

I don't think these are unreasonable base standards, but I assume somebody will tell me why I'm wrong and why I should just accept everything anime culture throws at me without question or meaningful commentary.

Like for example how characters in OreImo ignore basic logic and established character behavior whenever Kirino is in a scene such that she is on the "right" side of whatever is transpiring and has her way in the end.

GodlyKyon said:

Basic Economics here. There is, however, some objectivity that can be achieved when viewing the Light Novel Series'

Nidhoeggr said:

I always thought that anime fans who truly love the medium would try to prevent such a thing from happening to their favourite medium as well, but apparently I was wrong...

symbv said:
I think you are asking the wrong question. Who are the "anime fans who truly love the medium"? How many of such people exist? I think what I see are mostly just people who want to be entertained by animation. If they see the animation as not entertaining they would just switch to other entertainment. I am sure there are a good number of people who love anime as a medium but even those people may not spend money if they do not find the anime on offer as entertaining. So here you go, at the end is that there is anime that watchers find entertaining, not that the anime fans would just buy anime because, well, they are anime (because they love the medium).

Nidhoeggr said:

But why are otaku so focussed on always the same tropes then? Don't they strive for more diversity within the tropes that entertain them as well? Or search for a series that handles things they love even better than their favourites? If I'd love a certain series' approach I'd always try to look for series that might have a similar direction, but a totally different take on certain subjects. Or series with the same story structure in a completely new context. Or series that can achieve the same level of coherence as my favourite.

Or do you tell me that a lot of the otakus really only want the same cardboard cutout characters over and over again? Are they really satisfied that it is ALWAYS the same "Ara Ara~" type of character that is an ojou-sama?

Nidhoeggr said:
I stand by my main point: The fans and creators are too close, with all the consequences.

There's an interesting side to it mentioned that I don't see talked about very often: that the shift into more adult, near-pornographic anime on late-night TV can be attributed in large part to the aging of Japan's population. With fewer and fewer young people to add to the pile of anime consumers, the industry has to focus more and more on those obsessive fans. As you can imagine, this is particularly troublesome, because if they're not adding new fans even out of the small pool available now, then when the older otaku pass on, the fandom in Japan will diminish severely, and the industry with it.

Anime's other big threat is Japan's shrinking population of children - new viewers are harder and harder to come by - so anime has had to change its target audience, according to the industry chief, Toyoo Ashida.

TOYOO ASHIDA, INDUSTRY CHIEF (Translation): With the declining birth rate the target of animation production has moved towards young people and adults who grew up watching animation. We now produce anime specifically for those people. So we were able to expand our target audience and our market, but to meet the shift in the market we developed late-night anime.

Hashimoto's business has so far avoided anime porn. He's worried the trend is turning off the general audience.

KAZUMORI HASHIMOTO (Translation): It's been putting a strain on the industry. With the economic downturn our market has narrowed and the industry is slack. We're not producing much aimed at a general audience.

Nidhoeggr said:
1) We are not talking about entire genres or LN, we are talking about very specific story techniques and constructs that prevail here.

Nidhoeggr said:
Yet, the main (pseudo) harem members are almost always the same (token loli, token ojou-sama, token airhead, etc.), there are Sekaikei influences (well, in earlier works but still) and so forth. A lot of small details are almost always the same as well, which is particulary interesting and disturbed as it makes these titles very predictable.

Nidhoeggr said:

Especially if what you call "changing tastes" is basically narrowing down the scope of the potential consumers even more by including more and more fetisches that are only enjoyed by said crowd.

There's an interesting side to it mentioned that I don't see talked about very often: that the shift into more adult, near-pornographic anime on late-night TV can be attributed in large part to the aging of Japan's population. With fewer and fewer young people to add to the pile of anime consumers, the industry has to focus more and more on those obsessive fans. As you can imagine, this is particularly troublesome, because if they're not adding new fans even out of the small pool available now, then when the older otaku pass on, the fandom in Japan will diminish severely, and the industry with it.

Nidhoeggr said:

I also took a look at A-Line's site and jobs after reading all of this because I just couldn't believe that this image actually holds so much truth about the industry. I find it sad that, even though the company wants to reach out to other crowds and secure another fanbase, the industry workings and demographic problems force them to abide just to stay in business. Especially with MMY being on their front page, a show with a very interesting concept that was sadly ruined by focussing too much on the heroes' romantic interests and the large breasts of the demon lord...

gamer2710 said:
One would think that, based on these arguments, the only way the anime industry will listen is through a crash.

GodlyKyon said:


There's something else, while series like Uchuu Kyoudai are excellent, why do they do so terribly in Anime Sales? While these series are objectively good, but they do not sale... I want to some opinions on this stat

tsudecimo said:


1/ There is no such thing as ''objectively'' good. You can use the word critically if you want or any other word with meaning you are looking for.

2/ For the same reason HxH (2011), One Piece and Naruto don't sell so well in BD/DVD sales. They are long runners, their profit comes from TV ratings, promotion of the manga and possibly merchandise.

GodlyKyon said:
There's something else, while series like Uchuu Kyoudai are excellent, why do they do so terribly in Anime Sales? While these series are objectively good, but they do not sale... I want to some opinions on this stat

scytheavatar said:


http://www.animenewsnetwork.co.uk/news/2013-11-10/japan-animation-tv-ranking-october-28-november-3

Uchuu Kyoudai is not an otaku series, it airs at 17:30 (before Conan) and actually has pretty good TV ratings. Long running anime series rarely sells well for DVD/BD, how many people actually collect these series?

Bananaguy said:
"Yeah, incest for the win!"

GodlyKyon said:
There's something interesting I want to know: Since the Otaku is such a small and devoted fanbase, where do they get their income? Become I am having trouble understanding that, maybe the otaku is spread all throughout the different classes and not just the stereotypical shut-in that lives on their family?

Nidhoeggr said:

And the same hold true for most other characters. Why did Kuroneko act the way she acts? Why is everyone confessing to Kyousuke in the end? Why does the - and some moments of that were indeed very good - portrayal of otaku in general in relation to society in S1 stop and get retconned into a "everyone is actually an otaku, really pretty and good and we all luv each other because OTAKU 4 LYFE" world that completely negates the impact the developing relationships could have in regards to their parents, etc.? Why do people who hate otakus end up as magical girl-cosplaying idols? Why are entire arcs for support characters neglected when they don't appeal to otakus?
These are big problems that hamper the enjoyment so much that by the end of the series most fans even on MAL were turned away by it and got angry.

Nidhoeggr said:
I have no problems with anime being made only for otaku, but ffs: Not EVERY anime has to be full of otaku references, idols, imoutos who want the d, etc.
Is that too much to ask?

Nidhoeggr said:

But why are otaku so focussed on always the same tropes then? Don't they strive for more diversity within the tropes that entertain them as well? Or search for a series that handles things they love even better than their favourites? If I'd love a certain series' approach I'd always try to look for series that might have a similar direction, but a totally different take on certain subjects. Or series with the same story structure in a completely new context. Or series that can achieve the same level of coherence as my favourite.

Or do you tell me that a lot of the otakus really only want the same cardboard cutout characters over and over again? Are they really satisfied that it is ALWAYS the same "Ara Ara~" type of character that is an ojou-sama?

I stand by my main point: The fans and creators are too close, with all the consequences.
I imagine there would be more money from investors if more people were interested in certain series. Animation, salaries, etc. are all impacted by this indirectly and it is a shame to see people slaving away, creativity being neglected, etc. just because some no-life losers never want to break out of their escapism comfort zone. Think of Kannagi and the ridiculous act of not buying a series you enjoy - or even hating it - because one of the girls - or better: potential waifus - had a boyfriend... how desperate can you get ffs?! But then again: If they are fine working for bad conditions as long as they get to draw cute girls as girlfriend substitutes, so be it. It's just a shame once you look at all the wasted potential.

tsudecimo said:


1/ There is no such thing as ''objectively'' good. You can use the word critically if you want or any other word with meaning you are looking for.

2/ For the same reason HxH (2011), One Piece and Naruto don't sell so well in BD/DVD sales. They are long runners, their profit comes from TV ratings, promotion of the manga and possibly merchandise.

symbv said:
What it did not say here is that the problem is not the midnight anime but the decline of kids anime. More than midnight anime, in kids anime sponsorship is always the critical key, and the trend is that sponsors are less willing to stump up money. The worry is that as fewer kids shows are made, and kids attention is increasingly drawn to places like internet or games and not anime, and of course together with the decrease in the kids' population, there will be fewer anime fans in future. One key thing to note is that the blame never rests with the anime on late-night TV. If anything it is the shortage of profitable ventures in kids anime that pushed the anime industry to seek opportunities in other directions.

Amiluhur said:

Honestly, given how much anime merchandise costs in Japan, it stands to reason that the majority of the real buying market is going to be not-so-different from the average importer: single young adults with full-time jobs who choose to spend lots of money on their hobby rather than on other priorities. These purchasers hardly have a single-minded focus or interest based on the widely varied sales of shows in all sorts of genres. (Look at the top-selling shows of 2012/2013. Hint: they're not all "moe".) The only thing the purchasers have in common is being able/willing to spend a lot of money on their hobbies (at least for one or more shows).

Amiluhur said:
Anyway, all that to say, it's sort of fun in a way that people create this image of otaku culture that's so crazy and eccentric, but the truth is almost always much more boring/mundane than the many anime blogs would have you believe. The stereotypical "otaku" isn't actually what runs the market; the people with the money do.

scytheavatar said:
Those 2D waifus probably cost far less to maintain than a real woman anyway, so I fail to see why otakus can't afford their hobby........

Amiluhur said:
I think the problem is less "I hate shows that pander to otaku" and more "I hate shows that don't pander to me!"

If a show perfectly adheares to one's taste, that person won't complain about it and say that the show 'appeals' to them rather than 'panders.'

And really, no anime is made for 'anime fans in general', they're only made for whatever target audience was decided upon. If they're going to make a show for otaku, they're gonna put in stuff that otaku like. If they're going to make it for the artsy crowd, they're going to put in stuff that group likes.

If you aren't a member of the target audience and the content bothers you, well, it wasn't meant for you. Don't get angry at the show for failing at something it wasn't trying to do in the first place.

ThatGuyYeah said:
They aren't even blood related. She became his sister 1 year prior.
We're more likely to get a decent ending now, but I've lost a lot of interest.

symbv said:
It is actually one reason often mentioned by otaku about why they prefer 2D girls than 3D ones. I can really see their point.

GodlyKyon said:

While the idea of a waifu, someone who will never betray you, sound appealing, it does not physically exist. I can go into this deeper, but the idea of why that's a problem is pretty evident.

GodlyKyon said:

Second is the social stigma. I mean, if it's unveiled to others, you're in pretty big trouble unless your social circle is accepting of your belief.