| I’ve been thinking about how Japanese media handles war, and one pattern keeps standing out: even when it gets grim, it usually ends up circling back to idealism. Take Attack on Titan. For most of the series, it looks like one of the most brutal and unflinching portrayals of war in anime — child soldiers, genocide, paranoia, propaganda. But when it wraps up, it still leans into a hopeful, almost idealistic resolution about peace, cycles of hatred, and moving forward. It’s more about a message than about realism. I can’t help but wonder if Japan’s WWII defeat is the root of this. With militarism discredited, maybe Japanese creators had to move away from realistic depictions of war and instead wrap them in metaphor or end them with a hopeful “lesson.” Then if you look at Chinese War stories. It's always about each side doing whatever it takes to reach their goal. No messaging, just ambitions and winners takes all. |
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| I can't answer that because I don't know what tealistic means. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Dragevard said: Then if you look at Chinese War stories. It's always about each side doing whatever it takes to reach their goal. No messaging, just ambitions and winners takes all. Chinese war stories, specifically the ones made about the Chinese during the Korean War, and almost entirely propagandistic. The Chinese Communist Party tweaks the story of pre-existing events to teach to their people. Part of the reason that China is militantly against western powers even among the youth is partly due to this. To answer your question, I don't necessarily believe it to be due to Japan being defeated in World War 2, but more because they no longer have a military that fights in wars. The JSDF doesn't deploy to foreign wars for purpose of combat, only for peacekeeping and humanitarian reasons. I think it's due to a lack of military action that it's like this. |
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Dragevard said: I’ve been thinking about how Japanese media handles war, and one pattern keeps standing out: even when it gets grim, it usually ends up circling back to idealism. Take Attack on Titan. For most of the series, it looks like one of the most brutal and unflinching portrayals of war in anime — child soldiers, genocide, paranoia, propaganda. But when it wraps up, it still leans into a hopeful, almost idealistic resolution about peace, cycles of hatred, and moving forward. It’s more about a message than about realism. I can’t help but wonder if Japan’s WWII defeat is the root of this. With militarism discredited, maybe Japanese creators had to move away from realistic depictions of war and instead wrap them in metaphor or end them with a hopeful “lesson.” Then if you look at Chinese War stories. It's always about each side doing whatever it takes to reach their goal. No messaging, just ambitions and winners takes all. Eh, that’s fucking painting with a pretty broad brush. If Japanese media always circled back to shit like idealism, then shit like "Grave of the Fireflies" or even "Barefoot Gen" wouldn’t exist... that shit is about as bleak and uncompromising as it gets. Even the "Human Condition" film trilogy makes "Attack on Titan" look like a cheerful story meant for toddlers. lol On the flip side, Chinese war epics like "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" or even modern fare like "Wolf Warrior" are drenched in messaging of loyalty, patriotism, ‘virtue vs. corruption’, etc... It’s not just ambition and winner-takes-all. It’s less "Japan is idealistic, China is ruthless" and more that both cultures have different ranges, from hopeful to nihilistic to straight-up propaganda, depending on the story and the era. Lucifrost said: I can't answer that because I don't know what tealistic means. It's obviously just a typo... They probably meant "realistic". lol |
ColourWheelSep 9, 10:25 PM
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Reply to ColourWheel
Dragevard said:
I’ve been thinking about how Japanese media handles war, and one pattern keeps standing out: even when it gets grim, it usually ends up circling back to idealism. Take Attack on Titan. For most of the series, it looks like one of the most brutal and unflinching portrayals of war in anime — child soldiers, genocide, paranoia, propaganda. But when it wraps up, it still leans into a hopeful, almost idealistic resolution about peace, cycles of hatred, and moving forward. It’s more about a message than about realism. I can’t help but wonder if Japan’s WWII defeat is the root of this. With militarism discredited, maybe Japanese creators had to move away from realistic depictions of war and instead wrap them in metaphor or end them with a hopeful “lesson.”
Then if you look at Chinese War stories. It's always about each side doing whatever it takes to reach their goal. No messaging, just ambitions and winners takes all.
I’ve been thinking about how Japanese media handles war, and one pattern keeps standing out: even when it gets grim, it usually ends up circling back to idealism. Take Attack on Titan. For most of the series, it looks like one of the most brutal and unflinching portrayals of war in anime — child soldiers, genocide, paranoia, propaganda. But when it wraps up, it still leans into a hopeful, almost idealistic resolution about peace, cycles of hatred, and moving forward. It’s more about a message than about realism. I can’t help but wonder if Japan’s WWII defeat is the root of this. With militarism discredited, maybe Japanese creators had to move away from realistic depictions of war and instead wrap them in metaphor or end them with a hopeful “lesson.”
Then if you look at Chinese War stories. It's always about each side doing whatever it takes to reach their goal. No messaging, just ambitions and winners takes all.
Eh, that’s fucking painting with a pretty broad brush. If Japanese media always circled back to shit like idealism, then shit like "Grave of the Fireflies" or even "Barefoot Gen" wouldn’t exist... that shit is about as bleak and uncompromising as it gets. Even the "Human Condition" film trilogy makes "Attack on Titan" look like a cheerful story meant for toddlers. lol
On the flip side, Chinese war epics like "Romance of the Three Kingdoms" or even modern fare like "Wolf Warrior" are drenched in messaging of loyalty, patriotism, ‘virtue vs. corruption’, etc... It’s not just ambition and winner-takes-all.
It’s less "Japan is idealistic, China is ruthless" and more that both cultures have different ranges, from hopeful to nihilistic to straight-up propaganda, depending on the story and the era.
Lucifrost said:
I can't answer that because I don't know what tealistic means.
I can't answer that because I don't know what tealistic means.
It's obviously just a typo... They probably meant "realistic". lol
ColourWheel said: It's obviously just a typo... They probably meant "realistic". lol People need to stop relying on AI if it continues to make such obvious mistakes. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| i only agree with part where loss in ww2 made them draw femboy characters maybe as part of that trauma. |
I am just the admin of www.churro.club.  |
| this is the same user that rated gundam below 9 and refuses to watch seikai no senki yet he praises war shows made by commies |
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| Lol I'm pretty sure AOT is unrealistic for a different and way more obvious reason. It's true that anime doesn't have a Band of Brothers or a Savin Private Ryan, instead focusing their war stories on the plight of civilians. That might indeed be related to WWII. Hard to portray yourself as heroic when you sided with the Axis and had to unconditionally surrender. The other reason is probably just economic. |
on 
| I never thought of AoT as a realistic, idealistic work. Instead, it is a pessimistic fantasy parable about the violence of human life. |
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| I think the main reason for this might be that Japanese WW2 media usually portrays Japan as a victim. Contrary to Germany who usually portrays itself as a perpetrator. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
| "inability to write tealistic war stories?" Does the OP have the ability to tell what is realistic war story in the first place? If anything, loosing a war gives to your general population a more realistic view on things, beyond the propaganda lies. |
| Have you seen barefoot gen and grave of the fire flies? |
| so do you think that Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers are "unrealistic" because they also end on a brighter note? |
| Where can I see a western "realistic" representation of war for a comparison and not some heroic fairy-tale, something pretentious but superficial crap or 'look, this one is a masterpiece!' which is just an exception? If you didn't notice not every country in the world is obsessed with guns and shooting, it includes Japan which doesn't have military FPS games for example. |
| Fix the fucking grammar dude, stop overriding the spellcheck to make yourselves sound even more stupid than you already are. |
| Watch Tora Tora Tora/ Letters from Iwojima to know how capable Japanese ar in pulling of war themes. Anime will NEVER EVER be able to come close to depicting War as good as in movies. |
| I'd argue AoT was still quite realistic in regards to examination of war to the end, as |
Some of you never watched Bakugan Battle Brawlers on TeleToon in 2008 and it shows. |
Reply to Lawgun
Where can I see a western "realistic" representation of war for a comparison and not some heroic fairy-tale, something pretentious but superficial crap or 'look, this one is a masterpiece!' which is just an exception? If you didn't notice not every country in the world is obsessed with guns and shooting, it includes Japan which doesn't have military FPS games for example.
Lawgun said: Well actually they are. Conflict is an innate experiance of the human condition. We are only so peaceful now, due to the possibility of nuclear annihilation. The only people that pretend to be above it are the liars, self righteous, and the privileged. We are all tribalistic apes in the end. If you didn't notice not every country in the world is obsessed with guns and shooting, Dragevard said: Which is not "realistic". Band of Brothers and Beasts of No Nation are "realistic" war stories, AOT not so much. Anyway, Dragevard thread aside, I do actually think there is some merit to this. Japan when they write stories about war, at least in this medium, heavily cloak it in sci fi/fantasy or old history. You aren't going to get a Generation War type work out of them, for a variety of reasons. They can only do war stories, that largely show them as a victim of WW2. Something I am not the biggest fan of, when it comes to their media. Nothing wrong with showing victims, however, if you only show one form of victim, and that victim is your own nation, it feels more ideological rather than empathetic. Take Attack on Titan. Creators like Tomino, Arakawa or Satoru Nodo do at least have a bit more commentary there, which I appreciate. Though again, it's more trapped in sci fi/fantasy or not the focus. Of course I am just talking about anime. If there is stuff in Japanese literature or live action that does comment on this more, let me know. It's just when you see reactions to films like Unbroken, I assume a media work that is highly critical of the Japanese state during WW2, from the perspective of their imperialist crimes, wouldn't be that popular. So I would be interested if there is anything that actually bucks that trend. |
BilboBaggins365Sep 10, 11:46 AM
Reply to intiharr
@Lawgun
If you ever get over your edgy manchld phase you could try watching The Thin Red Line, Come and See, Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Salvador, The Painted Bird, Der Untergang, etc.
If you ever get over your edgy manchld phase you could try watching The Thin Red Line, Come and See, Platoon, Apocalypse Now, Full Metal Jacket, Salvador, The Painted Bird, Der Untergang, etc.
| @intiharr Nice list of crap you have there, half of these movies are superficial and naive while the other half is pretentious and try hard to compensate a lack of truth by being psychedelic or abstract to not be too serious. And stop projecting, it looks pathetic. |
Reply to BilboBaggins365
Lawgun said:
If you didn't notice not every country in the world is obsessed with guns and shooting,
Well actually they are. Conflict is an innate experiance of the human condition. We are only so peaceful now, due to the possibility of nuclear annihilation. The only people that pretend to be above it are the liars, self righteous, and the privileged. We are all tribalistic apes in the end. If you didn't notice not every country in the world is obsessed with guns and shooting,
Dragevard said:
Take Attack on Titan.
Which is not "realistic". Band of Brothers and Beasts of No Nation are "realistic" war stories, AOT not so much. Anyway, Dragevard thread aside, I do actually think there is some merit to this. Japan when they write stories about war, at least in this medium, heavily cloak it in sci fi/fantasy or old history. You aren't going to get a Generation War type work out of them, for a variety of reasons. They can only do war stories, that largely show them as a victim of WW2. Something I am not the biggest fan of, when it comes to their media. Nothing wrong with showing victims, however, if you only show one form of victim, and that victim is your own nation, it feels more ideological rather than empathetic. Take Attack on Titan.
Creators like Tomino, Arakawa or Satoru Nodo do at least have a bit more commentary there, which I appreciate. Though again, it's more trapped in sci fi/fantasy or not the focus.
Of course I am just talking about anime. If there is stuff in Japanese literature or live action that does comment on this more, let me know. It's just when you see reactions to films like Unbroken, I assume a media work that is highly critical of the Japanese state during WW2, from the perspective of their imperialist crimes, wouldn't be that popular. So I would be interested if there is anything that actually bucks that trend.
| @BilboBaggins365 There is 聯合艦隊司令長官 山本五十六 -太平洋戦争70年目の真実 and 日本の一番長い日, the first one is a biographical film and events leading to the bombing of Pearl Harbor. But it still paints the Admiral in a positive light , although as far as i known Admiral Isoroku was the more open minded of the top military brass, he also study at Harvard and knew what American is capable of so victory against the American fleet needed to be fast and swift. Luck was on America side as none of the carrier were present during the bombing. The second movie is about the immediate period before the surrender and the military's officers that started a coup to foil Japan surrender to continue the war, yes there are military officer that would still want to continue the war and fight to the last man. You can watch the remake 2015 and the one from 1967. |
SPTLayznerSep 11, 12:51 AM
Reply to BilboBaggins365
Lawgun said:
If you didn't notice not every country in the world is obsessed with guns and shooting,
Well actually they are. Conflict is an innate experiance of the human condition. We are only so peaceful now, due to the possibility of nuclear annihilation. The only people that pretend to be above it are the liars, self righteous, and the privileged. We are all tribalistic apes in the end. If you didn't notice not every country in the world is obsessed with guns and shooting,
Dragevard said:
Take Attack on Titan.
Which is not "realistic". Band of Brothers and Beasts of No Nation are "realistic" war stories, AOT not so much. Anyway, Dragevard thread aside, I do actually think there is some merit to this. Japan when they write stories about war, at least in this medium, heavily cloak it in sci fi/fantasy or old history. You aren't going to get a Generation War type work out of them, for a variety of reasons. They can only do war stories, that largely show them as a victim of WW2. Something I am not the biggest fan of, when it comes to their media. Nothing wrong with showing victims, however, if you only show one form of victim, and that victim is your own nation, it feels more ideological rather than empathetic. Take Attack on Titan.
Creators like Tomino, Arakawa or Satoru Nodo do at least have a bit more commentary there, which I appreciate. Though again, it's more trapped in sci fi/fantasy or not the focus.
Of course I am just talking about anime. If there is stuff in Japanese literature or live action that does comment on this more, let me know. It's just when you see reactions to films like Unbroken, I assume a media work that is highly critical of the Japanese state during WW2, from the perspective of their imperialist crimes, wouldn't be that popular. So I would be interested if there is anything that actually bucks that trend.
BilboBaggins365 said: Of course I am just talking about anime. If there is stuff in Japanese literature or live action that does comment on this more, let me know. It's just when you see reactions to films like Unbroken, I assume a media work that is highly critical of the Japanese state during WW2, from the perspective of their imperialist crimes, wouldn't be that popular. So I would be interested if there is anything that actually bucks that trend. There was a thread last year about Barefoot Gen. https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2183861 Tezuka wrote a lot of nuanced war stories, often but not limited to fantasy and SF. In addition to Phoenix, covering various periods of Japanese history, he has a manga about the holocaust. https://myanimelist.net/manga/1695/Adolf_ni_Tsugu Also valuable is the perspective of Shigeru Mizuki, a war veteran. https://myanimelist.net/manga/15279/Souin_Gyokusai_seyo He did not like it. |
| その目だれの目？ |
| With so many Users mentioning "Barefoot Gen", one thing I find very weird is just like the "Wicked City" film. The MAL database doesn't have the late 90s OVA release of the "Wicked City" film split up into 3 episode, which contains scenes not in the original film from the late 80s (just has more graphic violence, nudity, and rape in it). Basically the same thing goes with the 1983 "Barefoot Gen" film. There was an OVA release in Japan with extra scenes that I think got released around 1986 which included more graphic shit and even an implied rape scene. Noticeable shit that is completely absent from the original theatrical release. I only know this because living in Japan my father had the OVA on Laserdiscs and remember watching my fathers copy of the Anime for the 1st time in my teenage years so very long ago. I guess some shit is just so niche that it just never even makes it to the West no matter how popular it eventually becomes later on. |
ColourWheelSep 12, 12:59 PM
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| Pretty sure it's because of all the war crime denial |
Reply to Guilmon1
@Lucifrost dororo too is a story by tezuka that takes place during war and while not the standard was story, it does have some powerful messages and chapters about war from the perspective of people living during war times though in a more shonen way
| @Guilmon1 Which war is depicted in Dororo? |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to Guilmon1
@Lucifrost I don't think it was a real war, but the setting is at war
| @Guilmon1 OK, but I already acknowledged that he wrote a lot of war stories. https://tezukaosamu.net/en/message/war.html |
| その目だれの目？ |
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