why are women being so unseen as audience ?

Can anyone give me a source on why anime has historically never given shoujo/josei fair representation in anime, in relation to the market share of shoujo/josei manga? Going way back, it's hard to find specifics, but it's always been a much, much larger percentage of manga compared to anime adaptations for these female demographics. The natural conclusion is that female audiences were assumed to be far more likely to read manga than to watch anime, but there has to be something more in-depth/substantial besides some general sexist assumptions. There's tons of reasons that traditional style shoujo/josei would wane in popularity over time, but I'm more curious about how/why anime has always been slanted towards male audiences.

@Adnash @Purple_Gh0st24

I think you are missing the point of the discussion in the first place.

OP said, "Why are women being so unseen as an audience". And we are showing that isn't true. It's very clear that many anime (especially nowadays) is not made to be for women or for men (or for boys vs. girls). They simply get targeted as shounen/seinen because of the way the system is set. I explained in my very first comment, that you're not going to label your work as shoujo/josei if you can market it as shounen or seinen because it is more likely to succeed that way. There is no gender-neutral tag after all.

It's the tags themselves that are stereotypical. You can say that shoujo and josei are not just romance, but it doesn't change the fact that there's a giant bias towards shows that not only have romance but in which romance is the main focus (shows like Natsume or Banana Fish are still the exception). Women are craving variety, that is why almost every woman watches shounen and seinen, even if they also watch shoujo and josei. The opposite is not true. Men and boys can watch shoujo and josei, sure, but they can have quite the variety without doing so, especially in the seinen category. You said it yourself, they even have romance in shounen and seinen if they happen to like that.

"A show is still "for women" if every woman hates it, as long as it is marketed towards the shoujo/josei demographic. Likewise, a shounen/seinen show is not "for women" even if every woman loves it." - True, but shouldn't that indicate that there's something wrong with the way you're marketing?

It's very simple really. For shoujo and josei to increase in popularity, they have to become more diversified, which might very well happen if the female audience for anime keeps growing. The increase in female audience might also lead to less fear of categorizing something as for girls/women and losing public in the process. Categories are not stagnant. Shounen / Seinen / Shoujo / Josei ARE based on stereotypes, and stereotypes change.

If a work is marketed as shounen or seinen and ends up bringing in more female audience than a shoujo/josei show, maybe, just maybe, that should be analyzed because it can reveal what women are into and used to improve shoujo/josei. Or you can leave things as they are, and the disbalance between shounen/seinen and shoujo/josei will keep existing without it meaning that women as a public are being ignored. If women are digging shounen and seinen and the shoujo and josei shows are less popular as a result, then no reason to have more of them.

@LostSpectre I don't think there is a definitive source, other than shoujo/josei adaptations don't tend to gain as much popularity. One reason could be that it's more difficult to adapt shoujo/josei to anime while still making it an entertaining watch, possibly requiring higher production quality in order to get some of the subtlety through, though that's just a guess.

@sadoldman That would be valid if they were fairly represented, but ultimately weren't profitable. However, I do not believe that to be the case.

@LostSpectre They don't just need to be profitable but also have a history of being profitable enough to make them worth the risk of investing in over something else, or there needs to be someone with enough influence in the industry that's personally interested in driving the production through.

@AppleIceCream Well, the origins of these categories are predicated on conservative gender stereotypes, which would be very outdated by western standards. The stuff "for boys" is just all the really cool masculine shit, which girls will also find cool, while the stuff "for girls" is more traditionally feminine, heavily including romance, and while sexism plays a role to some degree, this content is inherently more polarizing for boys. The problem is that the more you move away from these stereotypes and diversify, the more meaningless these demographics would ultimately become.

@sadoldman Huh? I feel like you're not understanding that I'm talking about very early into the anime industry.

@LostSpectre

Indeed, that would be the logical progression.

But while they exist, and if they do keep existing and nothing changes, I still think it's important to not equate the lack of shoujo and josei shows with "women aren't being catered to" or with "that is because women don't watch anime" or even "that is because women don't spend money".

Because even if shoujo/josei shows have an increase in viewership because of women, shounen/seinen shows will have EVEN MORE of an increase because of said women. So at the end of the day, what is more profitable, right?

@LostSpectre I'm not exactly sure your point here. Are you saying that if animation studios had produced more shoujo/josei early on, that would be the dominant and more profitable one today? If so, you've lost me.

Can anyone give me a source on why anime has historically never given shoujo/josei fair representation in anime, in relation to the market share of shoujo/josei manga? Going way back, it's hard to find specifics, but it's always been a much, much larger percentage of manga compared to anime adaptations for these female demographics. The natural conclusion is that female audiences were assumed to be far more likely to read manga than to watch anime, but there has to be something more in-depth/substantial besides some general sexist assumptions. There's tons of reasons that traditional style shoujo/josei would wane in popularity over time, but I'm more curious about how/why anime has always been slanted towards male audiences.

@DigiCat I don't how much of a nerd you are. Do you really want to engage with me in psychoanalysis and writing theory? Don't get my hopes up.

Naruto is so much more than an accidental kiss. Much smarter and more interested parties have laid out how BL factors into Naruto. I would say look at those people as my explanation would pale in comparison to theirs. I recently learned that J R R Tolkien had a writing credo he lived by. "It's not for the author to define what the story is or isn't, but instead the purview of the reader to make the world what they will." That was definitely a paraphrase, but it basically means you can see Naruto however you like.

The Editors of Naruto weren't thinking that way tho. They were thinking, when will we get a chance to put a reverse sexy harem jutsu into the biggest, most important battle that ever took place in the Naruto universe. But you can interpret Naruto however you wish.

As far as Bleach, you hit the nail on the head. The romance stuff was a bonus. Either that, or Kubo either decided, or was forced to drop the shoujo romance elements. That stuff never came back ever again. Kubo kept things fresh with Ikkaku Madurame and and succession of villains and minor protags who were "different." But after the Rescue Rukia arc, the "little moments" that women live for basically evaporated from the anime and the manga.

It was really powerful stuff, that romance between Ichigo and Rukia. A lot of Bleach fans still haven't forgiven Kubo for who Ichigo chooses in the end. They have more complaints over that than they do over the loose threads of the story, unexplained moments, or anything else. I would say don't discount the power shoujo elements can bring to a story.

I really, really, really hate Tokyo Revengers, so I won't comment on those characters. Or characters from anime I haven't watched. Yato is from a manga written by a woman. Lelouch is the successor to Van Fanel, in that his story was written by a guy, but the ideals and morals that he goes for rides the line between what men think are important and what women think are important.

Senkuu is pretty much a guys guy. Cold, detached, and focused on the big picture. He doesn't have much room for the stuff ladies care about. Or another way to put it is ladies would care more about the stuff they don't like about him and ignore the flashes of depth that show from time to time. That's kinda what ladies do. As an anime only, I can only speak for where the anime is right now. I'm looking forward to the finale of Dr Stone.

I didn't watch Frieren and Zatch Bell aired when I was kid. I also wasn't a fan of it back then, so I can't speak for those characters. I also haven't watched Dororo yet. It's on my list of incredible anime I push back on my watchlist for anime junk food I feel like watching atm. Loid and Sosuke are literally prototypical characters. Sosuke (from the anime) is the stereotypical orphan child of war that learns he can become something else. He hasn't stopped focusing on the big picture, he just made some room for the little things as well. But you know Sosuke sees a relationship with Kaname as another battlefield. Search you feelings, you know it to be true.

Loid is basically a Gary Stu. Almost everything is "related to the mission." And because it's a comedy, any revelations or changes can be erased or forgotten for the sake of a joke. Soul is a unique case. He exists in a manga where the mangaka wanted to create cool shounen girls like his daughter could appreciate. With that context, Soul being a bit different makes a bit more sense. But Soul starts off pretty perverted and he never has a real "romance" with Maka. His goal is to be there for Maka. He's basically another version of the Japanese ideal man, specifically, the guy Okubo would like his daughter to marry. But that's just my two cents.

I have ignored all of those manga for my sanity, except for Vinland Saga. With the exception of Planetes, if you want to be depressed by a great story that will probably never end satisfactorily, go read a seinen. Thorfinn stands apart from almost every other character in anime or manga. He does embody battle as a warrior, but also the battles we as men have to continue when we choose peace. I would say his edges are too rough to be written from a feminine perspective, but I don't want to discount women. So instead I'll say he doesn't care about starting a family or what to eat for dinner. Or friendship. Thorfinn focuses on the ideals that we as men gravitate towards and most women put on the backburner.

As far as writing from a masculine and feminine perspective, it really boils down to, does this guy do stuff almost exclusively that the majority of guys don't? What are his goals in life and how personal are they when they don't involve revenge or murder? Does this guy believe the world can be a better place, and not just because we all just need to get along? What is is his view of the stuff we as guys put on the backburner? Do you as a reader understand the difference between the stuff we care about as guys vs the stuff women care about?

How asexual is this guy character? How does he interact with people of the gender he is attracted to? Is this guy perverted, and/or has a harem, but is secretly X? Or is just a regular guy who has regular needs. Can this guy character freely express the regular needs guys have without it being framed from the perspective of someone who doesn't get it?

Basically, do you watch G-Witch and think that Suletta and Miorine are a correct approximation of how romance goes between women? Like even a little bit? Because if you are capable of seeing when ignorant people attempt to tell stories without enough input, you are capable of seeing when a woman is trying to write a guy character. Trying in the sense of "this guy is what I want guys to be, not what they actually are."

This same mindset goes to guys that write girl characters but boils down the feminine experience to either shopping or getting mad at the little things. Or alternatively, they just write a guy character and palette swap a women into their role. Like revenge and a grisly death/ending to mask the deficits of a writer that doesn't know how to end the story in a way that would be true to the feminine experience.

On a bittersweet note, the mangaka of Migi to Dali passed away the same year the anime aired. She also wrote another manga that had a great anime. Haven't you you heard? I'm Sakamoto!

RIP to a real one.

@DigiCat You seem to be making my point for me. These lines that are supposed to separate shounen and shoujo so distinctly get very blurry in many titles.

@LostSpectre

Can't give you a source, but I can make a guess. Could it be perhaps because anime and manga are in totally different realms when it comes to risk and investment? As in, it takes a lot more risk and there's much more money involved when creating an anime compared to publishing a manga in a magazine? What is considered a success might be different when it comes to manga. A loyal fan base, even if relatively small, might be quite enough to cover the costs.

If you see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_manga

...the best-selling manga are rarely from the shoujo and josei categories even though there is an abundance of shoujo manga (and even josei to a certain extent).

Maybe it's not like companies are purposefully avoiding adapting shoujo and josei manga, but more like... they are adapting the most successful manga, which happen to not be shoujo/josei.

Still, to keep things completely fair, we would need a list of best-selling manga that would exclude all the manga that were already adapted into anime, because obviously, that alone is bound to increase the sales.

But yeah, maybe it was always like that? Maybe the shoujo/josei manga were always popular enough that is lucrative to keep making them in abundance but not popular enough that it was worth turning them into anime?

Can anyone give me a source on why anime has historically never given shoujo/josei fair representation in anime, in relation to the market share of shoujo/josei manga? Going way back, it's hard to find specifics, but it's always been a much, much larger percentage of manga compared to anime adaptations for these female demographics. The natural conclusion is that female audiences were assumed to be far more likely to read manga than to watch anime, but there has to be something more in-depth/substantial besides some general sexist assumptions. There's tons of reasons that traditional style shoujo/josei would wane in popularity over time, but I'm more curious about how/why anime has always been slanted towards male audiences.

@sadoldman Blurry in what way?

In the way that different demographics can tackle the same genres/themes while having their distinct storytelling styles?

@sadoldman I literally said... "There's tons of reasons that traditional style shoujo/josei would wane in popularity over time"

The point was simply that I don't think anime has ever represented shoujo/josei "fairly" compared to its prevalence in manga.

@LostSpectre Regardless of why, anime that is firmly in the shoujo/josei camp gets less eyes on it. Manga and light novels are relatively cheap to publish provided there are authors that want to churn it out, so you don't have the production barriers that anime has. So no matter where you put it in the timeline of anime, it's not what's "fair", it's what's more profitable.

@AppleIceCream Edit: I wrote this before your edit.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing where that applies to the question I'm really asking, as it seems to deal more with the modern day anime industry. To the best of my knowledge, the market share of the shojo/josei manga industry in decades past is magnitudes higher compared to what it has always been in terms of anime, but I've tried to look into this, and can't really find any definitive answers, other than a general sentiment that female consumers were far more likely to read this content rather than watch it.

@LostSpectre

Oh, so you mean that there was a time back then when shoujo/josei manga was more popular and lucrative than shounen/seinen manga?
Then that would be interesting indeed.

https://fractionoffiction.blog/2016/02/22/a-history-of-shoujo-manga/ - This blog post seems to touch on that subject.

It seems indeed shoujo manga experienced a sort of golden age, at least in the sense it was produced a lot more than shounen. Maybe it peaked too soon before animation was a thing that could be massively produced.

And then the publishing of shounen and seinen increased and those manga must have overcome the shoujo and josei in terms of popularity and grossing, even when shoujo manga was still being produced in more quantity. At the end of the day, if there were fewer shounen and seinen but if they were more popular, they would still be the chosen ones and the ones that would get animated.

I guess it makes sense it became hard for shoujo to compete with stories that are, ultimately, appealing to a wider audience.

@sadoldman Again, that literally doesn't address the core issue, so you can just stop trying.

@LostSpectre You're saying that the ratio of manga produced for the given demographics doesn't match the amount of anime produced. The answer as to why is obvious. The amount of manga produced for a given demographic does not correlate to the number of viable customers in that demographic. The market share IS lopsided.

@sadoldman Except, for the part where I very clearly specified market share. Feel free to provide a source on your claim.

@LostSpectre There are no publicly available hard numbers for Japanese audiences. There are some poll results based on voluntary submissions, so are automatically unreliable. The only real hard numbers we have are viewers for given media, but popular titles that draw male interest skew those results, so if we adjust for those, we can only say that female interest in anime is generally much lower than male.

I'm sure producers of these shows do have some very hard numbers to go off of, so that should also be indicative of actual market share.

@DigiCat In that there the story telling styles aren't as distinct as you make them out to be.

@Adnash @Purple_Gh0st24

I think you are missing the point of the discussion in the first place.

OP said, "Why are women being so unseen as an audience". And we are showing that isn't true. It's very clear that many anime (especially nowadays) is not made to be for women or for men (or for boys vs. girls). They simply get targeted as shounen/seinen because of the way the system is set. I explained in my very first comment, that you're not going to label your work as shoujo/josei if you can market it as shounen or seinen because it is more likely to succeed that way. There is no gender-neutral tag after all.

It's the tags themselves that are stereotypical. You can say that shoujo and josei are not just romance, but it doesn't change the fact that there's a giant bias towards shows that not only have romance but in which romance is the main focus (shows like Natsume or Banana Fish are still the exception). Women are craving variety, that is why almost every woman watches shounen and seinen, even if they also watch shoujo and josei. The opposite is not true. Men and boys can watch shoujo and josei, sure, but they can have quite the variety without doing so, especially in the seinen category. You said it yourself, they even have romance in shounen and seinen if they happen to like that.

"A show is still "for women" if every woman hates it, as long as it is marketed towards the shoujo/josei demographic. Likewise, a shounen/seinen show is not "for women" even if every woman loves it." - True, but shouldn't that indicate that there's something wrong with the way you're marketing?

It's very simple really. For shoujo and josei to increase in popularity, they have to become more diversified, which might very well happen if the female audience for anime keeps growing. The increase in female audience might also lead to less fear of categorizing something as for girls/women and losing public in the process. Categories are not stagnant. Shounen / Seinen / Shoujo / Josei ARE based on stereotypes, and stereotypes change.

If a work is marketed as shounen or seinen and ends up bringing in more female audience than a shoujo/josei show, maybe, just maybe, that should be analyzed because it can reveal what women are into and used to improve shoujo/josei. Or you can leave things as they are, and the disbalance between shounen/seinen and shoujo/josei will keep existing without it meaning that women as a public are being ignored. If women are digging shounen and seinen and the shoujo and josei shows are less popular as a result, then no reason to have more of them.

YES 🤩 We can even do it in comment section if you don't wanna clog up thread

What Tolkien said is quite true actually

The author will have his/her meaning behind what they write, one viewer will then interprete in in one way, and another viewer will have a completely different interpretation of it

Oooo, so lite Bleach spoilers on Ichigo's love life there i see... A bit of a similar situation to Naruto with...



Ah no worries 😂 everyone has different taste

I will admit, Takemichi can be a bit insufferable... but i do think the character writing in TR is very underrated, many people get so put off by Takemichi being essentially a "crybaby" that they don't see beyond that, how the rest of the characters backround and psyche are explored, and how in turn Takemichi evolves as he learns these things about his friends alongside the audience

Quite curious what you mean about the ideals and morals for Lelouch, i'm not very familier with Van Fanel


I wasn't really referring to "the stuff ladies care about" but rather layered character writing on a whole, regardless of if it appeals more to guys, more to girls, or to both

I'd also say, about Senkuu, that he could, possibly, be on the spectrum (i say this having family members who are on the autism spectrum). He displays a lot of traits that are typically linked to autism, one of those being a lack of awarness of other people's emotions, his cold and detached demenor and hyperfocus on one specific subject goes beyond the cynical, this doesn't mean he doesn't have emotins, that he doesn't care for the people around him, it just means he has a different way of showing it and might need some extra time to decode how they're feeling


And to that i'd ask, what is wrong with still seeing the bigger picture while learning to also make space for the little things?

I'd say that is character developement, and going towards balence

True focusing too much on the big picture while ignoring the little things is not good, but the opposite is also true

Admitedly FMP does not have the most unique premise or character writing, but i still think it does a good job giving the characters layers

Curious what you mean by prototypical


This i'd disagree with

The terms Gary-stu and Mary-sue reffer to characters that are basically without any struggles, they are flawless to the point of being unrealistic

Yes Loid is brillient at his job, yes he is extreamly focused on the mission, but he is nowhere near free of struggles (even though he wants you to think so), for 1) he's thrown straight in the deep end with parenthood, he is not the perfect father that has it all and is running the house smoother than butter, he is a good father, he is a caring father, he is also an overwealmed nervous wreck father trying desperately to balence his job and family life in the most unconventional setting one could possibly imagine, and on top of that, no.2) he deals with a lot of psychological struggles, to the point that it effects him physically, he has chronic abdominal pain, there is a reason why Anya rates him 90 on stomachachieness

I know these elements aren't explored in a lot of depth (at least as far as the anime, am not caught up with manga), but like i've said before in this thread, shounen/seinen do tend to be more subtle with how they execute these aspcets (unless it is the main theme of the story), add to that SxF is also a comedy and it becomes even more clear why there is more focus on other story elements, that does not mean though the neuances in character are not present

If i had to say which characters come off as Gary-stu/Mary-sue i'd say
- Toya (Isekai wa Smartphone)
- Tokuchi (One Outs)
- Hikaru, Umi, and Fuu (Magic Knight Rayearth)


Yes, Soul is a teenage boy with raging hormones, pretty normal for his age

I don't see what the lack of romance has to do with anything here, sure it can be a nice touch, but i don't think it's essential for good character writing in non-romance shows


Aww that's actually quite sweet <3


Yeah i heard 😿

I do know of I'm Sakamoto, but haven't checked it out yet

@sadoldman Hence, why you can't answer the question, but yet feel compelled to keep making statements about profitability. lol

Because women don't spend money on merchandise. You are your own worst enemy, women.

@LostSpectre I did answer the question. The market decided, long ago. This idea that somehow if more anime was made early on that catered almost exclusively to women a market would have developed for it is upside down. If there was a large market for that type of anime, it would have developed.

The fact that it's published in a shoujo magazine is proof enough. Thank you for providing such proof, which I requested precisely because the Apothecary novels are NOT published in a seinen magazine. I don't necessarily think a manga demographic counts if it's not the source material, but you make of good case for treating this one as seinen.

@Lucifrost In Kusuriya no Hitorigoto's case the situation regarding demographic is quite tangled due to the same story being released in several different formats, out of which only the manga entries can be put under certain demographic category used in Japan. That's why there will be always a dose of uncertainty regarding this subject.

Even though we have an objective category (the manga demographic), we still have to include subjectivity. If we assume that the manga demographic is enough, and that the fact it tells the same story as the anime adaptation, then we can count the anime as a seinen. But it's still a stretch, since, like you noticed, someone might point out that the original novel is something on which all other alternative installments were based on, and that said novel isn't sold as "a story dedicated to young adult men".

Kusuriya no Hitorigoto is really flexible in terms of demographic. It clearly is not for kids, like kodomo stuff, simply because of its themes and elements that aren't for children. Poisoning, plotting, prostitution, and many more, easily indicate that it's not a story dedicated to younger audience. However, in general, it won't be a mistake to say that the general audience consists of viewers of all genders who are older than rather older teenagers (closer to adulthood than farther), or are exactly those older teenagers. If someone wants to pick a demographic-dedicated version, then they are there. Two seinen manga for young adults, the original novel marked as "literature for women" (I think I saw once a store referring to it like that, but I'm not sure and I'm too lazy to search for the link), the light novel marked as "literature for men" (same thing here).

I agree that the original work's demographic should be decisive. But if we limit ourselves to shounen/seinen and shoujo/josei, which are the easiest to distinct when talking about manga (due to categories under which magazines publishing them are sold), then well... It's not wrong to call the anime a seinen show, if someone really wants to use that terminology in this case.

@Adnash @Purple_Gh0st24

I think you are missing the point of the discussion in the first place.

OP said, "Why are women being so unseen as an audience". And we are showing that isn't true. It's very clear that many anime (especially nowadays) is not made to be for women or for men (or for boys vs. girls). They simply get targeted as shounen/seinen because of the way the system is set. I explained in my very first comment, that you're not going to label your work as shoujo/josei if you can market it as shounen or seinen because it is more likely to succeed that way. There is no gender-neutral tag after all.

It's the tags themselves that are stereotypical. You can say that shoujo and josei are not just romance, but it doesn't change the fact that there's a giant bias towards shows that not only have romance but in which romance is the main focus (shows like Natsume or Banana Fish are still the exception). Women are craving variety, that is why almost every woman watches shounen and seinen, even if they also watch shoujo and josei. The opposite is not true. Men and boys can watch shoujo and josei, sure, but they can have quite the variety without doing so, especially in the seinen category. You said it yourself, they even have romance in shounen and seinen if they happen to like that.

"A show is still "for women" if every woman hates it, as long as it is marketed towards the shoujo/josei demographic. Likewise, a shounen/seinen show is not "for women" even if every woman loves it." - True, but shouldn't that indicate that there's something wrong with the way you're marketing?

It's very simple really. For shoujo and josei to increase in popularity, they have to become more diversified, which might very well happen if the female audience for anime keeps growing. The increase in female audience might also lead to less fear of categorizing something as for girls/women and losing public in the process. Categories are not stagnant. Shounen / Seinen / Shoujo / Josei ARE based on stereotypes, and stereotypes change.

If a work is marketed as shounen or seinen and ends up bringing in more female audience than a shoujo/josei show, maybe, just maybe, that should be analyzed because it can reveal what women are into and used to improve shoujo/josei. Or you can leave things as they are, and the disbalance between shounen/seinen and shoujo/josei will keep existing without it meaning that women as a public are being ignored. If women are digging shounen and seinen and the shoujo and josei shows are less popular as a result, then no reason to have more of them.

@Adnash Apothecary Diaries should clearly belong in the josei category, if we go by content and not technicalities of who happened to publish it.

@AppleIceCream I did not miss the point of the conversation, as I didn't intend to argue about things that are of course true, like marketing and its significance, its effects on popularity and the number of dedicated products released yearly, etc. Hard to disagree with something I agree with, lol.

What I did was just leaving a comment on misconceptions that some people in this thread have seemed to had in referring to Japanese demographic terminology. If one decides to use such wording, then it's good to follow the actual meaning of shounen/seinen and shoujo/josei, rather than making up one's own definitions. If someone wants to be more flexible, then it's great as well. But pretending to be both and complaining that the former (Japanese demographic categories system) doesn't meet someone's expectations, because they'd do it different, and thus shouldn't be referred by others in a discussion to as it had been in the past (i.e. by demanding arguments in favor of said system actually existing in Japan, or something), is like yelling at cloud, or complaining that the Sun rises at dawn.

One thing is a discussion, sharing your thoughts, but another is pretending that everyone should follow someone's version of reality and dance to the music of "I see it differently, therefore everyone should see it that way too!". ;D Especially when talking about really, really basic things. Like was already mentioned before, Japanese demographic categories ain't that complex and ain't as big deal as some people on the Internet want them to be.
You can can like that, even discuss in such manner, but to be honest, it's kinda like a pointless waste of time to start or participate in a conversation with that kind of folks.

I wish to point out that the demographics listed on Tezuka's website do not match those listed on MAL. I know I mentioned them in the past, though I don't remember if I mentioned them to you. They seem complex, and I have yet hear a good explanation of the "junior high/high school" and "adult" demographics.
https://tezukaosamu.net/jp/manga/chronology.html
https://tezukaosamu.net/en/manga/chronology.html

@MFDOOMED Not really sure what you mean by reminded of the stakes multiple times in TR, whatever it was i didn't think it dragged the pace down imo, but anyways, like i said, everyone has dfifferent taste and that's fine :)


I do think, in a way, your right, Takemichi never seems to've been able to mature in the OG timeline, we see how the anime opens, and his life is completely stuck, though i don't think this makes the premise sad in the sense of it being bad, i think the reason he never got a chance to mature initially is a combination of how he was originally treated by Toman (specifically Kiyomasa) and his passive, people pleaseing, character, essentially the dude is traumatized, i mean what we see on screen for 20 mins is what happened to him for years in the OG timeline, and trauma can stunt emotional groath, so alongside getting a chance to change the future, he's also getting a second chance at growing up

I feel really dumb now, Van the MC of Escaflowne ⁄(⁄ ⁄•⁄-⁄•⁄ ⁄)⁄ i'd forgotten his last name

That's a series i need to give a second chance, i really like the animation style and character designs and was really getting into the story about halfway, but somewhere around eps 15-16-17 i felt like the story was derailing and didn't get what was going on, also if you've watched both, how does the movie compare to the series?

I think what you mention about family with Escaflowne, from what i remember about it, Van's family background was quite stable (until the drama with his brother), what i mean is he has a solid bond with his family, and Lelouch, although his upbringing is quite the opposite of Van's, he shares that experience with his sister, and thus becomes very protective of her

It's hard for family to play a big part of your life for someone like Killua who's been abused by them his whole life, he doesn't even have that bond to most of his siblings that Lelouch has with Nunally and even to an extent Euphy, because his older brothers are participating in the abuse, we do later see his protective nature towards Alluka, though with how she was isolated from the rest of the family it still creates a different dynamic even though he does care for her


I do think there are quite a few women like that, but i wouldn't say 95% of them, in fact, i'd say those women who do blame the guy for ruining everything in such situations... are conceited bitches

Of course this doesn't mean the woman has to just sit there and take it, but it takes 2 to work on a relationship, you don't get to give the guy an ultimatum to get his shit together if you're not willing to try and understand what the shit is going on, and unfortunately the type of people who go on to put all the blame on the other are also the type who are not willing to do so


True that Loid and Lelouch have a different approach to their relationships, but also true that they are 2 different people (characters)

Loid is a lot more introverted, and this, along with his past traumas and undercover job, contributes to his detached nature and surface level like interactions, he doesn't really know how to seek or give comfort or other things that are involved in interpersonal relationships, he's basically learning all this from zero by living with Yor and Anya

Lelouch on the other hand is a lot more extroverted, even confronting his dad, the emporer of britannia, in front of the whole royal court, yes he does still bottle certain things up, be it cuz they're too painful or to protect Nunally, but like you said, this isn't something that comes naturally to him, i'd say even since before the geass, and the way he interacts with the people around him is almost a way to compansate, to let loose, to release the pressure built up by the things he can't express


I wouldn't water down Sosuke's character to "just a child soldier"

Like i said, FMP does not have the most original writing in anime, but i don't think that invalitades good character developement


So i've heard

If i'm not mistaken Sakamoto is also a sorta parody on the Gary-stu arch-type? (correct me if i'm wrong) Which might be why it works so well for that show


I'm not really bothered by fanservice, i did try Eminence when it was first airing, but got a bit bored after a couple eps... but i recently saw a poop scene of it on youtube and that has convinced me to give it another shot... yes i am that immature 💩


Or we could see that as potential for a sequel :D (wishful thinking)

@Lucifrost That's a good looking list. I'm unfamiliar with a lot of those works. Thanks for sharing

@DigiCat Avoid the Escaflowne movie like the plague it is. The only thing those two anime share in common are the names of characters. Everything else that makes Escaflowne great, from the characters to the story is much, much, worse. It is very well animated and if you like blood the movie will leave you satisfied. The first scene is also great as well. I have nothing else positive to say about the movie.

Admittedly I first watched Escaflowne as a child, so I wasn't getting bored and dropping anime. But I rewatched the anime on blu ray as guy in his 30s and loved most of it. Except for some unexplained stuff that derails the plot around the episodes were you got lost. I did some research and they never explicitly spell out what happened in the story. I watched the anime 3 times and the only reason I know why that stuff happened is because of the internet.

FWIW, that bunch of episodes in the only time that happens, and it is definitely worth your time pushing past those episodes to see the rematch between Van and Allen. It's peak. The story even asks the question of whether we are better off when we get what we want or not. It's an anime, so don't get your hopes up on a proper answer to the question. But it certainly makes things more interesting.

When I say family, what I mean is that the feminine perspective puts family above everything, regardless of your circumstances in life. When I say the feminine perspective, I speak for the majority of women that media is catering to, not the outliers. Killua's past wouldn't be a reason for him not to change for the better from a feminine perspective. He should just get over it. That's the big difference between the masculine and feminine perspective. Grace.

As far as Sosuke, I'm sure he gets a lot more character development in the novels. But anime Sosuke is just a guy who realizes he needs to change to stay with the girl he likes. I don't see a lot of development in that premise. I much prefer the dynamic between Heero and Relena. It is similar, but much more insane, which makes his changes more enjoyable to watch. Invisible Victory(FMP) was great when it focused on the drama. All that stuff with Nami was a waste of time and should have been cut in half imo.

I would argue that Loid and Lelouch have much more similarities than differences. Lelouch imo is like the average stage performer. They put on a front for their job, but really don't like interacting with people. The difference between Loid and Lelouch is Lulu had one personality in the very first episode that he never went back to ever again, and Loid is a guy who is fairly static. Both of them base their responses to people on what they think people want to hear from them. But Lulu is more compelling to me because he is doing his thing for personal reasons instead of it just being his job.

Lulu confronted his dad, he didn't confront a bunch of people he didn't know. IMO, an introvert has much less trouble dealing with family and friends than they do dealing with outsiders. Lelouch to me is the classic introvert that does just enough for people to leave him alone so he can do the stuff he wants. Take my opinion with a grain of salt because I am definitely an extrovert. I like introverted things like typing paragraphs on MAL, but I also like befriending people I have never met before in different timezones face to face.

For the relationship stuff, I firmly believe guys and girls need to do a better job vetting their partners and acting on red flags the first time they see them instead of the 5th. Or the 10th. Or after the other person cheats on them or serves up divorce papers. The easiest way to explain working together in a relationship setting is guys are dogs and ladies are cats. Some cats can be trained. Most will resist it. Most dogs will be trained, also most dogs will come back no matter how badly they've been mistreated. You can't expect a cat to do anything except what it feels like. So the whole relationships take work deal isn't really it. Unless you find a very rare cat.

It takes about three to four episodes for things to really start popping in Eminence, but it is nonstop from there. You probably watched the serious setup episodes that needed to be there for the rest of the anime to be batshit insane. Honestly, just pick up from where you left off. Like any good comedy show, most of what's going on doesn't really matter. Everything exists to mock isekai, power fantasies, and anime nerds. The fanservice is there to keep people interested in between the jokes.

I don't know how to feel about Okubo after Fire Force and Soul Eater. I really, really, love Soul Eater despite its many flaws, but that guy doesn't seem like the type to improve from one work of art to another. I like the spice he adds to manga and anime, but he always mixes it in with some nasty stuff that makes you wonder wtf is wrong with this guy.

I know one thing tho. If David Productions gets enough money to produce and animate the next seasons of Fire Force well, Arthur vs Dragon is going to be trending on the internet.

Immaturity is the key to a long and full life of joy. Revel in the stuff that makes you happy.

@AppleIceCream
It is to be expected you don't know those manga. If you check the creator's MAL page, you'll see his 11th most popular has under 5,000 members.
https://myanimelist.net/manga/22305/Ningen_Konchuuki
Princess Knight has even fewer.

I'm sorry... he should just get over it? You think that is changing for the better?

For one, look i know we're talking about fictional characters here, and i hope you are saying it so lightly because this doesn't invole real life people, because you should never, and i mean NEVER, tell an abuse victim to "just get over it", saying things like that isn't a feminin perspective, it's an inhumane perspective, and it is far from grace

For 2, putting family above everything when they are the abusers is the most toxic situation one could possibly put themselves in, it is a recipe for disaster as it makes it that much easier for the abusers to take advantage of and manipulate their victims


I'd say more he realizes he needs to change to be able to live his life


That might be true, but the situation changes when the family member is abusive, it takes a lot even for an extrovert to confront such people, even more so if they're family


Honestly, i don't like this comparison at all, actually i'll go as far as to say i hate it

Yes dogs can be trained easier than cats (trust me i have 5 of the latter), but your human partner is NOT a dog, you cannot expect another human being to be trained to your liking when you are not willing to make compromises yourself, that is the definition of a toxic relationship, that is the definition of an emotionally and psychologically abusive relationship

@DigiCat I have no problem speaking clearly about other people's issues. A lot of real women do feel this way about Killua's situation if they were either dating him or a family member. As an individual you can agree or disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that's how people act in the real world. If I wanted to be charitable, I would say being in a relationship can make some people change for the worse, but honestly I detest that way of thinking.

But you are also talking about an entire group of people that honestly believe it's safer to be with a bear in the woods than strange men. And I went and had this convo with multiple real women in real life. Not on the internet. I won't say every woman thinks that way. But I will say far too many do.

I don't know your life, but your words make it seem like you found yourself a nice relationship with little to no toxicity. If that's the case, I'm happy for you. Before I worked as a travel nurse I also trained to be a relationship therapist. I know quite a bit about how people can be their best selves. Unfortunately, I also know even more about peoples demons. I left relationship therapy because reality is depressing and I didn't want that profession for myself.

I can't tell if you're purposefully misinterpreting my words or my intentions are being communicated incorrectly. I thought I did a solid job using dogs and cats as an analogy. I wanted to use an allegory, but I can be plain spoken as well. A lot of women don't want to put in the work to make a relationship work. That is also true of some men, but far less so. In my experience, most men just need to know what they need to do to fix the situation and will make a good faith effort to change.

A lot of women don't. And I mean a lot. It crushed my soul to learn this info, so much so that I ended up swinging in the other direction and being firmly against marriage counseling. Women are wonderful and life is better with them in it. I just think guys need to be smarter with their choices in partners. Women too. But that's a whole other can of worms.

Relationships are very much about training. You have to learn what works for the both of you, what doesn't, and unlearn the things that make relationships worse. That's training. And it's gonna last the rest of any couples relationship, if they are committed to the long haul. It's a choice to take offense at being compared to cats and dogs. But the truth is we compromise with our pets as well. We certainly give them more grace than we give humans.

Sosuke didn't need to change. He was the perfect soldier and his life would have been fine if he didn't settle down with someone. Plenty of career military and mercenary people stay the same. Also, none of us have been through the kind of stuff Sosuke did, so I don't think we have the right to tell him whether he needs to change or not. The author does tho, in this fictional story, and he changed Sosuke for the sake of a relationship that some would call compelling. I clearly don't feel that way, but plenty of people beg to differ.

Lulu was in a life and death situation, plus his whole reasoning for going to that island was to confront his father. I would say Lulu put in too much work at that point and had too much to lose to be quiet when he got a chance to speak to Charles. Lulu isn't Shinji, he's not gonna back out at the last second. But as I said earlier, take my opinion with a grain of salt. I can't really understand the difficulty as an introvert of facing up to an abusive family member. As an extrovert however, I can say I definitively have advocated for family members and stood up for myself without the extra pressure of reality folding in on itself to motivate me to take action. Everyone finds their own motivation. Or they don't.

I'm not sure what your personal experiences are, but that is far from how most people behave in the real world, men and women

Now one thing that is true, is that women have more of a tendencie than men to hope the abusive party will change, to hope they can fix them, and like i mentioned before, that is a very unhealthy way of looking at the situation, and this happens when she herself is in an abusive situation, this because it is a lot harder to realize what is going on when you are in the middle of an abusive relationship than when you are an observer of it

But no sane person with a shread of self awarness would ever dream of telling an abuse victim to "just get over it", not men, not women, in fact, the opposite is true, the first thing women do if they see another women in an abusive relationship is tell her to get the hell out of there, unfortunately a lot of times she won't listen


This mentality is unfortunately quite prevalent, and i will never understand why

For me it would depend on who the man is, heck there's some women i'd feel safer with a bear than them

To go beyond the man vs bear debate, a lot of people (i'm gonna guess more so women) have this misconception that if a stranger is a woman she is always a safer option than a stranger who's a man, it doesn't seem to cross their mind that women abusers, perverts, and psychopaths exist too, and those types of people, both men and women, take advantage of this misconception (this is gonna get dark pretty quick)



Is that really the vibe i give off?

I'm sorry to say my words come from the exact opposite experience


That is unfortunately very true, but i don't think "i don't want to put in the work" should be used as an excuse by women to leave everything up to the men

And yes the allegory would've probably worked better than cats and dogs


That is very true, but the key word there is both


Yes he was the perfect soldier, but was his life really perfectly fine? Can constantly living on the edge and fearing that any small changes are a threat to your life at 17 really be considered living?

Yes many carreer military and mercenary people do this, but they also make these choices as adults

I know we haven't been thru what Sosuke has and therefor can't fully understand what he's going thru (and i hope few people can), but i do think we should acknowledge what we can understand, that is that the psychological effects that life is having on him are bad

@DigiCat I don't think Sosuke's life is better after Chidori. At least as an anime only, I don't think so. I don't feel bad about characters whose entire point is to make you feel bad about them. We could talk about how kids in real life are forced to take drugs and revel in the worst of humanity to be better weapons. THAT is the dark stuff that gets under my skin and makes me upset. But another badass who kills people isn't exactly a sympathetic or relatable person unless the writer puts in the work to make him relatable. And I don't care about Chidori being the chosen one, or her and her friends making him a normal guy. Being a normal guy helps no one in the world of FMP where the villains are monstrously strong beyond reason.

But I think we can agree to disagree. In Super Robot Wars, Sosuke and my fav child soldier Heero Yuy have a sempai kouhai relationship. That's a lot more interesting to me than doing your part to make sure the supernatural girl gets to live a normal life.

As far as abusive relationships, while they may be complex, the way ladies react to them aren't. In real life, it's on us to get over our shit and become better people. Ladies with their vicious relentlessness give some men the push they need to get over the hump. Some men. Other men never recover. But either way, women aren't about grace in the same way men are, specifically in regards to men. But plenty of women have no grace for women going through stuff either. Medical professionals that I have had in depth conversations with about the ethics of letting your personal feelings on people's moral failing get in the way of how you interact with your patients.

I had these convos with MDs, CNA's and nurses in different states around the USA. The one thing these people have in common is women being unable to give other women a second chance. Of course every women doesn't think this way, and indeed, most women want women to do better. But as soon as that person doing better becomes THEIR responsibility, more women than not change up real quick.

It really just comes down to the masculine vs feminine perspective on things. I don't think those women are incorrect to be so harsh, per se. I just acknowledge that different people think different things. I would also say Sanity in and of itself is a matter of perspective. I would say men and women think the other side is completely insane and they wouldn't be wrong.

To give women a break, men do often belittle and put down men going through different things. Sometimes it's a matter of negative reinforcement, something popular in the military and regimented forces like the police or EMS. We don't have time for your weakness, so suck it up and figure it out on your own time.

A lot of men don't feel they have ANYONE they can speak to about their issues. They then make the mistake of telling the wrong woman and have it blow up in their face. We have grown a bit as society and there are places where people can heal and grow, much more than there ever were in the 90s and earlier. But we still got a long way to go. Killua may be a gross exaggeration, but a lot of people here in the USA have real issues that make them worse people. And both men and women aren't helping them to be better people.

Your spoiler point was interesting because yesterday I watched the 1971 film Get Carter and the blaxploitation adaption from 1972, Hit Man. Guess how your point related to a major plot point of both the movies and the book they were based on?

As far as whether you are single or not, I can't assume anything off the internet. I kinda hoped that relationship stuff is going well for you, but it's tough out here. You'll get no shaming from me. I will say something I'm sure you have heard plenty of times in your life. Women don't want the nice guy.

Technically, your responses indicate a guy that is too considerate of women. While being considerate of women is in every guys best interest, it's not something women want. That doesn't mean becoming a villain. But it does mean being able to call out women being nuts in a way that won't be taken as disrespect. It's something you cultivate, just like going out on more dates online, or however you get a chance to deal with women, so you get a better choice of quality women worth your time. I'm just a guy on the internet, so do whatever works for you. I recommend taking dance lessons. Private ones if you need extra time to get your coordination together.

As far as putting in the work, the world is unfair (regarding women) unless you got money or fame. Men put in the work for the women and may or may not get something out of it. Thankfully, you can change a lot of things and flip the situation on its head. But all you do is switch one set of woman problems for another set. Also, no amount of money or fame can stop women from ignoring you, choosing not to text, or some women flat out just not wanting to be with you. I prefer my fantasies in anime, manga, and video games. I'm not interested in the fantasies of relationship. I would still recommend you create some fantasy for your woman if you want the relationship to be smooth. Just remember what's real and what's fake.

@MFDOOMED
That's the thing though, the reason he's the badass that kills people is because of the dark stuff from his childhood, now i don't know if drugs where involved, but i wouldn't discount it, and even without, his childhood was massively fucked up

I know the anime doesn't delve very deep into it, and you can like that writing choice or not, like i said everyone has different taste, but i don't think that changes his psychological state

Basically, i think being a badass helps the people around the badass, but being a normal guy helps the badass stay sane

To give an example of something i'm not a big fan of the writing, Evangelion (i know unpopular opinion)

But even though the writing's not my cup of tea, i can undersand that Shinji's depression and lack of social skills is rooted in the abusive relationship with his father, i can understand that Asuka's attitude problems and how she takes her frustrations out on Shinji are a result of childhood trauma


Though this is true, there is a difference between telling someone to "suck it up" "man up" temporarily, i'm not saying it's the healthiest coping mechanism, but it is something that works especially for survival situations, like a soldier on a battlefield, or a cop chasing down a criminal, or even a doctor in the ER, but this is meant to be a temporary thing, it's very different from telling someone "just get over it"


I was referring to family relationships in my case... also, i kinda got this impression already, but given it doesn't really bother me i don't really bother correcting people when they make assumptions... but might be the time to say... i'm a woman (so no i haven't heard that, at least not directed to me)

I'm not really sure what you mean by "nice guy", but i want a guy who's a good person, regardless of he's the sensitive type or the tough guy

@DigiCat My bad on the gender mixup.

I strongly dislike the story of NGE, but the rebuild movies offer a nicer take on the formula if you haven't seen them already, I highly recommend it.

Negative Reinforcement isn't meant to be a temporary thing. It's meant to be there for the rest of your life. It's the reason MDs, cops, and soldiers have such high rates of suicide, despite earnest efforts to change the culture. The sad fact is people don't want to change what works because a few peoples suffering is equivalent to the majority of society having a better life.

That and other issues is why we have such a big opioid and drug epidemic amongst nurses. Civilians may not know too much about it, but we got programs and plans in place to get them back on track. Assuming they didn't do anything so wild their license was taken from them. Society runs on the sacrifices of others and these people that are suffering often don't want to change. My teacher would say people hate change because it's painful and won't change until whatever other thing happening is more painful than whatever pain comes from changing things up.

Just get over it is a gross oversimplification. It actually is a deeper and more insidious deal that involves peer pressure, fear of failure, fear of failing others, and the masochistic tendies that already tend to underlie people with the predisposition to get into jobs that focus on helping or protecting others. The scars left by negative reinforcement often never heal and people cope with the psychic damage in many ways. Toxic relationships. Drugs of the soft and harder variety. Self destructive tendencies. The saddest part of the whole sitch is that most of those people refuse help even when it is offered to them.

Other people have healthier outlets. Some focus on media, like movies, anime, manga. Others use exercise as an outlet. Some people can find solace in religion. NLP is a great tool as well. But none of that stuff fundamentally does anything definitively unless the person actually understands the issues and works to fix them. I'm just fortunate I had a good understanding of psych stuff and coping mechanisms before I started working as a nurse.

When I talk about people like Sosuke, I see authors that are more focused on using people's pain to be compelling than giving them real actual meaningful change for the better. The best example of that is the difference between Thorfinn and Sosuke. Both of them had horrible experiences as children that led them to be broken in many ways. Only one of them has a meaningful solution that could actually work in the long term and that's Thorfinn.

Chidori feels like she can put up with Sosuke, but if it was real life and those two ever got into a stable life where life and death situations didn't interrupt the natural flow of a relationship, she is definitely gonna leave Sosuke. Because no matter how much you love a guy, you can only give so much to a guy who isn't doing enough to change in a way you think is acceptable. And we know enough about Sosuke to know that his changes are gradual and slow. In the framework of a romantic action story, their "love" is more based on their respective situations than on anything sustainable. After spending time building an emotional attachment, I don't want Sosuke to unalive himself because his relationship didn't work out.

Ultimately, that just comes down to writing by a guy who doesn't understand relationships because either he didn't have a lot of them, or he's more focused on the story he wants to tell. Which is a big part of why I like the feminine perspective in anime and storytelling. It feels more real because it focuses a bit more on realistic situations and has characters come together in ways that make a lot more sense than Naruto and Hinata.

It's all fiction tho, and while I do enjoy digging into all the what ifs, it's just some persons fantasy. Ultimately, I just choose fantasies that resonate more with me, just like most other people. I also want to see other peoples fantasies and have my own ideals and beliefs confronted by someone who can sell me on another way of life. So I watch shoujo sometimes and engage with ideas and beliefs that go against my own, cuz the world is a better place when we think different things.

Side question. How expensive is it to take care of 5 cats. Your bills must be crazy!