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| When I feel sleepy I open my computer and rewatch the fight scenes, the beautiful animation and soundtrack keep me awake. |
| Based Certified. I love anime armpits. |
| If people will still prefer pretentious Zero... I like it when someone who was so f*cked by this world stops silently suffering and goes all out. God damn, this movie showed some unthinkable level of quality.Every character is great in this version. |
| I hate everyone equally |
Zevven said: If people will still prefer pretentious Zero... I like it when someone who was so f*cked by this world stops silently suffering and goes all out. God damn, this movie showed some unthinkable level of quality.Every character is great in this version. F/Z is far superior. This has better animation and great fight scenes but that's about it. Sakura is a boring "pity me" character and Shirou after annoying everyone for 25+ episodes about his ideals gives them up rather easily for her. Also every character? Apart from Sakura and Shirou no one gets any real screentime. Even UBW was better here since at least other characters got some focus |
| >Sakura is a boring "pity me" character Oh yeah I remember how Kirei, Kariya and Kiritsugu were such strong characters that the only thing that could move them forward was... self pity. 2 whole episodes of Kiritsugu suffering in the past(+ him suffering in the end), Kirei and his self discovery issues and Kariya being a worm breeding ground since ep1. I remember how Zero starts with Kiritsugu being all sad because he will kill Iri. FEEL SAD ABOUT THEM PLZ. > Shirou after annoying everyone for 25+ episodes about his ideals gives them up rather easily for her. Irrelevant. Also he hardly talked about them,it was the rest of the cast trying to talk bullshit about him.And honestly how the fuck does HF refute anything he said in UBW? I dont remember him anywhere saying anything about killing a helpless innocent person being right. >Also every character? Apart from Sakura and Shirou no one gets any real screentime. Even UBW was better here since at least other characters got some focus Yes and since they got it there you already know who they are. Any screen time they get here only adds to what you already know. |
| '' Even UBW was better here since at least other characters got some focus''. Different route = focus on different characters and different way of things. ''This has better animation and great fight scenes but that's about it.'' I don't usually try to argue with people here, thanks for reminding me why.I don't know what you saw in this movie, but to me it is crystal clear that there was a huge amount of characterisation for Sakura, Shirou, Zouken, even fucking Shinji(fuck you, Shinji).Zero was more of a Battle Royale with philosophical aspects and Heaven's Feel is more like Evangelion.You can like any of these, I'm not gonna argue with subjective opinion and taste.Just don't shit on other version without arguments, OK? ''Shirou after annoying everyone for 25+ episodes about his ideals gives them up rather easily for her.'' He didn't give up on his ideals.It's just that his ideals are quite unhealthy and unrealistic.If it was for Kiritsugu, he would kill Sakura the moment he realized that she is that mysterious shadow(although I don't think it is so easy anyway, look at Gil's death).But Shirou wants to save everyone, even Sakura.Because of his stupidity, Sakura will kill even more people and will be the direct antagonist to him in 3rd movie, I guess. Also, I don't find Kiritsugu's ideals healthy as well.In the end his only desire was to save everyone and killed even more people.That's a real world for you.Cruel as it is. Shirou's ideals is just a more unrealistic version of Kiritsugu's ideals.He strives to be a hero, but sometimes being a hero requires a lot of spilt blood.Shirou's imagine of a hero is some fairytale knight who defends and saves everyone. P.S. Actually I still need to rewatch all routes later, there are things are started to notice just recently.Although I want to skip original fate/stay night, because it was actually cringe.Forced servant-master romance and bad animation... |
ZevvenJun 16, 2020 8:57 AM
| I hate everyone equally |
| Going to be straight up and brief since I dont remember much from when I watched it. This movie started to make no sense at all when it got to the black figure, Sakura's state, and her abilities as Dark Sakura. Like things just...happen with no explanation. I had to read the wiki/abridged story on a forum else where AND actually play the visual novel (I dont necessarily like to, but Fate is an exception) HF route to get the full picture. The biggest fight of the movie Saber Alter vs Berserker, just amounted to a boring flashy beam struggle. It was definitely not wise of me to go to the theaters for this one. The first movie was a good foundation, and I know the third will be good now that I've spoiled myself.. |
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| THIS MOVIE IS BEYOND EPIC!! |
Lavah said: LololI disagree. He just wanted to stop Sakura from mass killing, a good deed. He didn't deserve this. Oh you just hate him nmv "Good deed" He didn't like Sakura being the one to end the world. Its the Kings duty to select in his mind. He was still a villain that got overshadowed because he bit off more than he could chew |
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Lavah said: I disagree. He just wanted to stop Sakura from mass killing, a good deed. He didn't deserve this. Oh you just hate him nmv Bruh, have u ever watched UBW? XD |
It's very annoying :/ |
| beware of crappy engrish |
| Kek Quite a few people think what he was doing was based on benevolence. But OK |
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| Such a lovely film. I was thinking of Kaji Yukiura's music the whole time since it was so powerful... Her work in this film is 100/100. Also nice to see OP sakura and Saber Alter. Also nice to see some ShirouxSakura moments even if it's just a little. It just sucks that people expect to come to this movie expecting a happy outcome since the entire premise of the movie focuses on Sakura which is the opposite of it. Then they hate on it because of how it is. |
| Such a great movie with it's plot and animation!! Can't wait to get the sequel BD!!!! |
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| I am honestly not sure what to rate this for myself. I have it at an 8 atm but that might be too high for how I feel and I'm just wearing those rose tinted glasses because I want these films to be as good as UBW was for me. I got to watch I and II in the theater yesterday for a special showing in preparation for III coming on Friday and one thing I can say is that they aren't as good as UBW imo. The animation is top notch like always and the fight scenes are terrific but my main issue is the characters. I suppose this is meant for people who already know what is going on as it skips over details on the Holy Grail War and backstories of most of the characters as it assumes you've already seen UBW and have that knowledge. Unfortunately it means that everything feels so shallow to me, a character who was a large part in the previous show may now be nothing but a glorified cameo at best. Thrown away like they are nothing. These people on screen are so empty how can I feel anything for them? The ones who get more focus? Rider? Pfft. She doesn't die right away, best I can say. Of course the main focus is Sakura which is another problem in that I don't like her much. She is such a pathetic thing, I know I am to feel sorry for her given her history but the fact is as she is now she is either a yandere obsessing with Shirou to a mass murdering demigod or something and the show makes it seem like none of it is really from her own decisions. Its because she can't control the magic that was forced on her from her "training" so its as if she is just a victim of something beyond her that makes her violent and horny. This doesn't make a compelling character however. This might change come Movie III but as of now... eeeeeeehhhh. |
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gswelcome said: I am honestly not sure what to rate this for myself. I have it at an 8 atm but that might be too high for how I feel and I'm just wearing those rose tinted glasses because I want these films to be as good as UBW was for me. I got to watch I and II in the theater yesterday for a special showing in preparation for III coming on Friday and one thing I can say is that they aren't as good as UBW imo. The animation is top notch like always and the fight scenes are terrific but my main issue is the characters. I suppose this is meant for people who already know what is going on as it skips over details on the Holy Grail War and backstories of most of the characters as it assumes you've already seen UBW and have that knowledge. Unfortunately it means that everything feels so shallow to me, a character who was a large part in the previous show may now be nothing but a glorified cameo at best. Thrown away like they are nothing. These people on screen are so empty how can I feel anything for them? The ones who get more focus? Rider? Pfft. She doesn't die right away, best I can say. Of course the main focus is Sakura which is another problem in that I don't like her much. She is such a pathetic thing, I know I am to feel sorry for her given her history but the fact is as she is now she is either a yandere obsessing with Shirou to a mass murdering demigod or something and the show makes it seem like none of it is really from her own decisions. Its because she can't control the magic that was forced on her from her "training" so its as if she is just a victim of something beyond her that makes her violent and horny. This doesn't make a compelling character however. This might change come Movie III but as of now... eeeeeeehhhh. |
TypeMercury94Dec 9, 2020 8:02 AM
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Blackmirror94 said: gswelcome said: I am honestly not sure what to rate this for myself. I have it at an 8 atm but that might be too high for how I feel and I'm just wearing those rose tinted glasses because I want these films to be as good as UBW was for me. I got to watch I and II in the theater yesterday for a special showing in preparation for III coming on Friday and one thing I can say is that they aren't as good as UBW imo. The animation is top notch like always and the fight scenes are terrific but my main issue is the characters. I suppose this is meant for people who already know what is going on as it skips over details on the Holy Grail War and backstories of most of the characters as it assumes you've already seen UBW and have that knowledge. Unfortunately it means that everything feels so shallow to me, a character who was a large part in the previous show may now be nothing but a glorified cameo at best. Thrown away like they are nothing. These people on screen are so empty how can I feel anything for them? The ones who get more focus? Rider? Pfft. She doesn't die right away, best I can say. Of course the main focus is Sakura which is another problem in that I don't like her much. She is such a pathetic thing, I know I am to feel sorry for her given her history but the fact is as she is now she is either a yandere obsessing with Shirou to a mass murdering demigod or something and the show makes it seem like none of it is really from her own decisions. Its because she can't control the magic that was forced on her from her "training" so its as if she is just a victim of something beyond her that makes her violent and horny. This doesn't make a compelling character however. This might change come Movie III but as of now... eeeeeeehhhh. I'll just say that I can understand why you think Sakura is a great character, that you find her backstory and her current trials to get out of her situation a great watch. I simply can't agree, it doesn't help me support her, just me I suppose, these films rating certainly indicates i'm in the minority heh. I have seen III since I first posted this btw and I really enjoyed the conclusion though it doesn't help my loving these first two. Going to settle with a 7 for I and II and a 9 for III. Don't dislike these by any means, just can't love them. As an aside I started reading the VN as well, gone through the Saber and Rin routes. Don't know if I'll bother with Sakura since I just watched these films though. Maybe later. Found out what a tragic adaptation the original F/SN was, what a hatchet job they did with Saber's story... |
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| This movie is brilliant, we've got almost everything. The Tohsaka sisters issues finally touched again. Ilya knowing the truth about Shirou and her father. Interesting to see what her thoughts will be in the next movie. Shirou's idealism actually being tested. We can clearly see the difference between him and Kiritsugu here. He can't do it dirty. Also as I feared before, Shinji has done Sakura probably a million times. To the point where she is sexually frustrated. Fuck that old bald insect prick hope he dies next |
gswelcome said: Mate thats what I feel when I first watched UBW having seen Deen's fate route. Saber being casted aside feels sad. You're not wearing a rose tinted glasses, you just want more Rin. Its a different route get over it.I am honestly not sure what to rate this for myself. I have it at an 8 atm but that might be too high for how I feel and I'm just wearing those rose tinted glasses because I want these films to be as good as UBW was for me. I got to watch I and II in the theater yesterday for a special showing in preparation for III coming on Friday and one thing I can say is that they aren't as good as UBW imo. The animation is top notch like always and the fight scenes are terrific but my main issue is the characters. I suppose this is meant for people who already know what is going on as it skips over details on the Holy Grail War and backstories of most of the characters as it assumes you've already seen UBW and have that knowledge. Unfortunately it means that everything feels so shallow to me, a character who was a large part in the previous show may now be nothing but a glorified cameo at best. Thrown away like they are nothing. These people on screen are so empty how can I feel anything for them? The ones who get more focus? Rider? Pfft. She doesn't die right away, best I can say. Of course the main focus is Sakura which is another problem in that I don't like her much. She is such a pathetic thing, I know I am to feel sorry for her given her history but the fact is as she is now she is either a yandere obsessing with Shirou to a mass murdering demigod or something and the show makes it seem like none of it is really from her own decisions. Its because she can't control the magic that was forced on her from her "training" so its as if she is just a victim of something beyond her that makes her violent and horny. This doesn't make a compelling character however. This might change come Movie III but as of now... eeeeeeehhhh. |
| The animation in combination with the powerful story left me with goosebumps. It feelt so sad to see how Sakuras mind slowly withered away until it got completly taken over by the shadow. I hope there is a way to save her but sadly it looks like that might be impossible. |
MAL: |
| Shinji deserved worse. I think he's my least favourite character in all of anime. |
| The "wonderland" from 1:22:22 to 1:24:49 that show how people lies to themselves drowning into a fantasy fake happy life is one of the best scenes from the whole Fate franchise for me (atm still have to watch Fate Heaven's Feel 3 and Fate/Zero from the main Anime adaptations) I love satires, trippy and horror dark stuff so for me it started to get really good at half of the movie :p naisu |
| People acting like the Sakura shit isn't filled to the brim with plot holes. Definitely severely underwhelmed by the first 2 movies, especially after seeing the ratings. Shirou is still one of the worst MCs ever. This feels like another case of where something is dark and somehow in peoples minds that makes it good (AoT..) |
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LuciferIAm said: People acting like the Sakura shit isn't filled to the brim with plot holes. Definitely severely underwhelmed by the first 2 movies, especially after seeing the ratings. Shirou is still one of the worst MCs ever. This feels like another case of where something is dark and somehow in peoples minds that makes it good (AoT..) "This is bad but I am not gonna tell why" Well, just because you think it is bad doesnt make it bad. |
ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: People acting like the Sakura shit isn't filled to the brim with plot holes. Definitely severely underwhelmed by the first 2 movies, especially after seeing the ratings. Shirou is still one of the worst MCs ever. This feels like another case of where something is dark and somehow in peoples minds that makes it good (AoT..) "This is bad but I am not gonna tell why" Well, just because you think it is bad doesnt make it bad. I've already seen you defend this series up and down vehemently, pretty sure it'd be wasted breath with the mental gymnastics you will employ to try to make Shirou seem like anything more then the 1 dimensional shallow character he is. You could literally replace shirou with a talking plank and it'd be more interesting, and probably have more conviction then shallow tropey ideals. Much of the entire plot revolves around Sakura who is 'le dark' abused - yeah, totally makes a lot of sense to emotionally and physically abuse your massive trump card. What if Sakura were to suddenly just kill herself? Literally all his master plan would be ruined. Stupid af. |
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LuciferIAm said: ssjokg said: "This is bad but I am not gonna tell why" Well, just because you think it is bad doesnt make it bad. I've already seen you defend this series up and down vehemently, pretty sure it'd be wasted breath with the mental gymnastics you will employ to try to make Shirou seem like anything more then the 1 dimensional shallow character he is. You could literally replace shirou with a talking plank and it'd be more interesting, and probably have more conviction then shallow tropey ideals. Much of the entire plot revolves around Sakura who is 'le dark' abused - yeah, totally makes a lot of sense to emotionally and physically abuse your massive trump card. What if Sakura were to suddenly just kill herself? Literally all his master plan would be ruined. Stupid af. I am happy to see that you paid zero attention. |
ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: I've already seen you defend this series up and down vehemently, pretty sure it'd be wasted breath with the mental gymnastics you will employ to try to make Shirou seem like anything more then the 1 dimensional shallow character he is. You could literally replace shirou with a talking plank and it'd be more interesting, and probably have more conviction then shallow tropey ideals. Much of the entire plot revolves around Sakura who is 'le dark' abused - yeah, totally makes a lot of sense to emotionally and physically abuse your massive trump card. What if Sakura were to suddenly just kill herself? Literally all his master plan would be ruined. Stupid af. I am happy to see that you paid zero attention. Admittedly I'm a little shocked you replied as such, I expected a gymnastics routine. |
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LuciferIAm said: No need for that with people already hating it as series before they start it.Admittedly I'm a little shocked you replied as such, I expected a gymnastics routine. |
ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: No need for that with people already hating it as series before they start it.Admittedly I'm a little shocked you replied as such, I expected a gymnastics routine. Quite the opposite. I wanted it to be good. Sure Shirou is a top 5 worst protag for me but I *want* to like Fate series. The world is interesting, heroic spirits are fun and battles can be sweet. It's the painfully shallow philosophical themes and weenie tier protag that ultimately severely mars my enjoyment. Kirie is an interesting character. Pretty much every other char is embarrassingly shallow in comparison. Almost all of their traits and motivations exist for the plot, instead of being part of the character. Shiro and sakura especially barely have personalities. For christ sake Medusa seems to have more personality, the irony being her summoners influence. |
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LuciferIAm said: It is bullshit like that that doesnt let fans take criticism seriously.Kirie is an interesting character. Pretty much every other char is embarrassingly shallow in comparison. Almost all of their traits and motivations exist for the plot, instead of being part of the character. Shiro and sakura especially barely have personalities. For christ sake Medusa seems to have more personality, the irony being her summoners influence. |
LuciferIAm said: It just sounds like you dislike the character archetypes bc they do have a personality not constrained to the narrative. We know what they like to do on their free time, their general views on the world/people, and what triggers them. You're just not a fan of the story and that's cool.ssjokg said: No need for that with people already hating it as series before they start it. Quite the opposite. I wanted it to be good. Sure Shirou is a top 5 worst protag for me but I *want* to like Fate series. The world is interesting, heroic spirits are fun and battles can be sweet. It's the painfully shallow philosophical themes and weenie tier protag that ultimately severely mars my enjoyment. Kirie is an interesting character. Pretty much every other char is embarrassingly shallow in comparison. Almost all of their traits and motivations exist for the plot, instead of being part of the character. Shiro and sakura especially barely have personalities. For christ sake Medusa seems to have more personality, the irony being her summoners influence. |
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ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: It is bullshit like that that doesnt let fans take criticism seriously.Kirie is an interesting character. Pretty much every other char is embarrassingly shallow in comparison. Almost all of their traits and motivations exist for the plot, instead of being part of the character. Shiro and sakura especially barely have personalities. For christ sake Medusa seems to have more personality, the irony being her summoners influence. Lol if I wasn't speaking the truth then you should be able to destroy my stance. I don't want to be agreed with. My position is always if you claim something is good then you should be able to argue in its favor. I don't care if you love everything about FSN, free to like whatever you want, just don't claim its amazing if you're not willing to battle criticism. Not that I should expect anything from modern discourse - as foolish as expecting Shirou to not be a personality void. I actually saw you claim Shiro was so different in HF. L,O,L |
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Emblemz said: LuciferIAm said: It just sounds like you dislike the character archetypes bc they do have a personality not constrained to the narrative. We know what they like to do on their free time, their general views on the world/people, and what triggers them. You're just not a fan of the story and that's cool.Quite the opposite. I wanted it to be good. Sure Shirou is a top 5 worst protag for me but I *want* to like Fate series. The world is interesting, heroic spirits are fun and battles can be sweet. It's the painfully shallow philosophical themes and weenie tier protag that ultimately severely mars my enjoyment. Kirie is an interesting character. Pretty much every other char is embarrassingly shallow in comparison. Almost all of their traits and motivations exist for the plot, instead of being part of the character. Shiro and sakura especially barely have personalities. For christ sake Medusa seems to have more personality, the irony being her summoners influence. Let's try a test shall we? Name something about Shiro that is unique - hell, how about memorable ? He is a walking generic trope. |
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LuciferIAm said: Ironically referred to as the housewife and butler in his relationships. Such a prominent feature that they made spinoff of him cooking. He makes other characters shine so much to the point that fans constantly ask "where's Shirou?" when they hear about a recurring character in a spin off.Emblemz said: It just sounds like you dislike the character archetypes bc they do have a personality not constrained to the narrative. We know what they like to do on their free time, their general views on the world/people, and what triggers them. You're just not a fan of the story and that's cool. Let's try a test shall we? Name something about Shiro that is unique - hell, how about memorable ? He is a walking generic trope. |
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Emblemz said: LuciferIAm said: Ironically referred to as the housewife and butler in his relationships. Such a prominent feature that they made spinoff of him cooking. He makes other characters shine so much to the point that fans constantly ask "where's Shirou?" when they hear about a recurring character in a spin off.Let's try a test shall we? Name something about Shiro that is unique - hell, how about memorable ? He is a walking generic trope. Besides being bewildered how you find that to be a positive trait in a BATTLE series.. Tordoras MC does that 100x better without seeming like a will-less plank going through the motions. That's what almost everything Shrio does can boil down to. Going through the motions. His ideals are so unbelievably generic and done a thousand times (and in much better ways..) what really even defines Shiro? Save everyone? Nice guy? Doing housework would hardly define him. Perseverance? Even his perseverance is generic, there's no real driving force behind it except for the ACT of perservering. And that perseverance being the thing that got Sakura and Rin to like him? HOLEEE F* is that cringy. It's basically otaku fan fiction at that point. Everything Shiro does and is exists for the plot. He could be written out and almost nothing would be lost. I get it, japs really love self-inserts that are underdogs or nice guys who get the girl. That doesn't make him a compelling character. |
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LuciferIAm said: ssjokg said: It is bullshit like that that doesnt let fans take criticism seriously. Lol if I wasn't speaking the truth then you should be able to destroy my stance. I don't want to be agreed with. My position is always if you claim something is good then you should be able to argue in its favor. I don't care if you love everything about FSN, free to like whatever you want, just don't claim its amazing if you're not willing to battle criticism. Not that I should expect anything from modern discourse - as foolish as expecting Shirou to not be a personality void. I actually saw you claim Shiro was so different in HF. L,O,L If you claim something is bad then you have to explain why it is bad. Simply saying that a character is generic doesnt mean shit. But sure here: Shirou wants to be a hero only because it feels good. A hypocrite that cant live any other way because he thinks he is a sinner for surviving a random disaster. In other series like, Boku no Hero Academia, he would be treated like a villain or like Stain at best. He isnt different in HF? You mean, that he didnt just throw away what drove him in Fate and UBW, he didnt break down because his choices lead to hundreds of people to their deaths and didnt he come close to killing the one thing he found meaning other than being like Kiritsugu? That's me dumbing down his character for you. Yeah definitely the same like in UBW. I have to ask, what makes Kirei so unique, or any different from Shirou? If you saw UBW and HF and think that Shirou is just another Deku, Naruto or Luffy, then what makes Kirei different from any random villain who is evil for the sake of it? You dont know what a non 1 dimensional character is, all you want is a character to look cool, Kirei did look cool for you and Shirou did not, even tho they are the same kind of person, self-proclaimed sinners that want to find inner peace, through opposite means. But sure lets call the teenager generic and the adult interesting because he looks cool. I dont understand what traits or motivations you want from two characters who were properly established. If you cant tell who they are or what drives them then you didnt pay attention or didnt care to pay attention. You say their traits and motivations exist for the plot but I am sure you will find Zero to be the best shit ever even tho it is just what you criticize HF for, with every character making dumb choices to get to the ending. |
ssjokgApr 8, 2021 12:51 AM
LuciferIAm said: Emblemz said: Ironically referred to as the housewife and butler in his relationships. Such a prominent feature that they made spinoff of him cooking. He makes other characters shine so much to the point that fans constantly ask "where's Shirou?" when they hear about a recurring character in a spin off. Besides being bewildered how you find that to be a positive trait in a BATTLE series.. Tordoras MC does that 100x better without seeming like a will-less plank going through the motions. That's what almost everything Shrio does can boil down to. Going through the motions. His ideals are so unbelievably generic and done a thousand times (and in much better ways..) what really even defines Shiro? Save everyone? Nice guy? Doing housework would hardly define him. Perseverance? Even his perseverance is generic, there's no real driving force behind it except for the ACT of perservering. And that perseverance being the thing that got Sakura and Rin to like him? HOLEEE F* is that cringy. It's basically otaku fan fiction at that point. Everything Shiro does and is exists for the plot. He could be written out and almost nothing would be lost. I get it, japs really love self-inserts that are underdogs or nice guys who get the girl. That doesn't make him a compelling character. Yep here it is. Glad to know that you paid zero attention to UBW. |
ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: Besides being bewildered how you find that to be a positive trait in a BATTLE series.. Tordoras MC does that 100x better without seeming like a will-less plank going through the motions. That's what almost everything Shrio does can boil down to. Going through the motions. His ideals are so unbelievably generic and done a thousand times (and in much better ways..) what really even defines Shiro? Save everyone? Nice guy? Doing housework would hardly define him. Perseverance? Even his perseverance is generic, there's no real driving force behind it except for the ACT of perservering. And that perseverance being the thing that got Sakura and Rin to like him? HOLEEE F* is that cringy. It's basically otaku fan fiction at that point. Everything Shiro does and is exists for the plot. He could be written out and almost nothing would be lost. I get it, japs really love self-inserts that are underdogs or nice guys who get the girl. That doesn't make him a compelling character. Yep here it is. Glad to know that you paid zero attention to UBW. Besides the forever ridiculous premise of who Archer really is, It's kind of stupid to bring up UBw when you yourself have said shiro is 'so different' in HF. The UBW routes shouldn't even be relevant to the discussion. |
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LuciferIAm said: Besides the forever ridiculous premise of who Archer really is, It's kind of stupid to bring up UBw when you yourself have said shiro is 'so different' in HF. The UBW routes shouldn't even be relevant to the discussion. It is the same character, the base is the same, the development is different. And even if the development is different the cause is the same. If you cant understand that then it isnt the fault of the adaptations or the VN. And if you think Archer is different from Shirou because he is strong, when he is the same stubborn, nice guy that hides behind the tough act then good job at missing 90% of their story. FSN routes make up one story. They dont work separate. If that is too much for you to handle then more power to you, feel free to hate it, but if the only think you can say is "generic", "self insert", without understanding who the characters even are or even presenting a good argument(all you did is say what they do not why) then dont even start talking shit. |
ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: Lol if I wasn't speaking the truth then you should be able to destroy my stance. I don't want to be agreed with. My position is always if you claim something is good then you should be able to argue in its favor. I don't care if you love everything about FSN, free to like whatever you want, just don't claim its amazing if you're not willing to battle criticism. Not that I should expect anything from modern discourse - as foolish as expecting Shirou to not be a personality void. I actually saw you claim Shiro was so different in HF. L,O,L If you claim something is bad then you have to explain why it is bad. Simply saying that a character is generic doesnt mean shit. But sure here: Shirou wants to be a hero only because it feels good. A hypocrite that cant live any other way because he thinks he is a sinner for surviving a random disaster. In other series like, Boku no Hero Academia, he would be treated like a villain or like Stain at best. He isnt different in HF? You mean, that he didnt just throw away what drove him in Fate and UBW, he didnt break down because his choices lead to hundreds of people to their deaths and didnt he come close to killing the one thing he found meaning other than being like Kiritsugu? That's me dumbing down his character for you. Yeah definitely the same like in UBW. I have to ask, what makes Kirei so unique, or any different from Shirou? If you saw UBW and HF and think that Shirou is just another Deku, Naruto or Luffy, then what makes Kirei different from any random villain who is evil for the sake of it? You dont know what a non 1 dimensional character is, all you want is a character to look cool, Kirei did look cool for you and Shirou did not, even tho they are the same kind of person, self-proclaimed sinners that want to find inner peace, through opposite means. But sure lets call the teenager generic and the adult interesting because he looks cool. I dont understand what traits or motivations you want from two characters who were properly established. If you cant tell who they are or what drives them then you didnt pay attention or didnt care to pay attention. You say their traits and motivations exist for the plot but I am sure you will find Zero to be the best shit ever even tho it is just what you criticize HF for, with every character making dumb choices to get to the ending. The hell does it matter if he momentarily thought about killing Sakura? In the end he was still the same, save everyone, including Sakura, even though she murdered countless innocents. It was still save everyone by defeating Kirei. Maybe its hit on a lot more often and more fleshed out in the VN but his survivors guilt feels like a minor motivator at best. Everyone around him nudges him in the various directions. He never really chooses to forge his own path - he only does what the plot needs him to. His words ring shallow with no conviction behind them. Shrios lack of presence certainly doesn't help. Indeed, zero is far more interesting. The characters have clear goals and ideals regardless of whatever plot contrivances you are whining about. For christ sake the summoner of rider is a more interesting character then Shiro, at least he set out to forge a path based on his circumstances of his own volition. Not merely a passenger like Shiro is to everyone around him. Can you really tell me that Shiro isn't just a self insert power fantasy? What really differentiates him from basically every harem or hentai protagonist? |
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ssjokg said: LuciferIAm said: Besides the forever ridiculous premise of who Archer really is, It's kind of stupid to bring up UBw when you yourself have said shiro is 'so different' in HF. The UBW routes shouldn't even be relevant to the discussion. It is the same character, the base is the same, the development is different. And even if the development is different the cause is the same. If you cant understand that then it isnt the fault of the adaptations or the VN. And if you think Archer is different from Shirou because he is strong, when he is the same stubborn, nice guy that hides behind the tough act then good job at missing 90% of their story. FSN routes make up one story. They dont work separate. If that is too much for you to handle then more power to you, feel free to hate it, but if the only think you can say is "generic", "self insert", without understanding who the characters even are or even presenting a good argument(all you did is say what they do not why) then dont even start talking shit. Don't give me that bs. That's exactly what I was saying. Just because the writing says a dog is now a cat doesn't make it more believable. Archer carries himself in a completely different manner. He speaks and behaves significantly different then Shiro. Shiro may as well be wallpaper for most of his scenes. Honestly I don't remember archers motives as it was a while ago and again.. really hated ubw. You've now kept saying I'm not explaining why hes bad.. when I've spent paragraphs doing so and you just dismiss it because I use words like generic and self-insert. Do I need to define generic and self-insert? Sorry but you trying to jump a hurdle for hours then giving up isn't going to make the big boobed school girl fall in love with you. That's a self-insert. Wanting to save everyone doesn't get any more generic. It's the equivalent to virtue signaling in fiction. I'd also argue that a story isn't very good if it can't stand on its own feet without requiring a ton of alternate content to flesh out details. |
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If you call characters generic simply because their actions happen to save people then you dont have much to say. The point is the why and how. With your logic Kenzou Tenma is generic. Anyone who as much as lifts a finger to help another is generic. Archer is different? How? Because he hates his younger self? Doesnt matter since they are the same at the end. If you can reduce characters to one basic thing then I can too. Archer saved people, Kiritusgu saved people, Zouken wanted to save people. Just because you think the end result is generic doesnt mean the foundation and journey is. FSN as a story is the 3 alt routes. If you cant deal with it then well... oh what a pity. Shirou literally ignores or rejects everything the other characters say to him, in any route, yet he didnt set out on his own? Just admit that you dont want to understand his character. Much easier than saying the same baseless thing over and over again. Muh high jumps. Plz. If that makes him a self insert then literally any male MC ever that makes girls fall in love is a s self insert. |
LuciferIAm said: I'm just gonna go to these one by one. Besides being bewildered how you find that to be a positive trait in a BATTLE series.. Tordoras MC does that 100x better without seeming like a will-less plank going through the motions. That's what almost everything Shrio does can boil down to. Going through the motions. His ideals are so unbelievably generic and done a thousand times (and in much better ways..) what really even defines Shiro? Save everyone? Nice guy? Doing housework would hardly define him. Perseverance? Even his perseverance is generic, there's no real driving force behind it except for the ACT of perservering. And that perseverance being the thing that got Sakura and Rin to like him? HOLEEE F* is that cringy. It's basically otaku fan fiction at that point. Everything Shiro does and is exists for the plot. He could be written out and almost nothing would be lost. I get it, japs really love self-inserts that are underdogs or nice guys who get the girl. That doesn't make him a compelling character. >in a BATTLE series Highlights in the series for me are typically a mix of the SoL and the action. There's more downtime than action actually. The anime just happen to be so vibrant, that becomes the highlight for many fans. This is actually why I love Fate/Hollow Ataraxia over Fate/Stay Night since those down to earth moments become the focus. That's where I think Shirou shines most because his character bounces off well with whoever is on screen. Self inserts make conversations incredibly trite but Shirou's actually let's you find more insight about him/the character he's interacting with. I like him about the same as someone like Takasu besides there just being way more of Shirou. >What DEFINES him Being hypocritical and a fake. That's his main thing. All the other stuff you said derives from that fact. It's a story about him learning to live with that fact without it being self destructive. I really can't find that particular feature anywhere. It only goes as far as "don't push yourself too hard!" or something like that for other shows. For Shirou, it's something he never moves on from but he still tries regardless of the fragility behind it. >He could be written out Yea. Finding a self insert with the same base features could get the job done and then it would be extra cringe because a self insert doesn't hold anything meaningful beyond that. Fujimaru Ritsuka from FGO is a perfect example. They're the good man who fights for humanity. Every character love him in the series and they open up about their life stories to him. However, there's nothing personal in Fujimaru to reciprocate those feelings back to them or make the interactions feel authentic. Can't say the same for Shirou where we see why he struggles and the innate commonalities between whoever he's talking to. The animes do a less than stellar job since FSN is full on 1st Person but the idea is there unlike what a real self insert is. I'm not gonna convince you that you're wrong about how you perceive him. He is vanilla on surface. |
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| man I'm so glad I waited until I got my hands on spring song, I would've died if it ended there and I had to wait another year. It's been a while since I've watched anything from the fate series, so I'm still a bit confused on everything surrounding sakura and how she is the gate or vessel of the holy grail. I'm guessing creepy old grandpa matou always wanted the holy grail manifested in sakura all along for whatever reason, but I don't know why it wait so long to do so. It was kind of just going around doing its own thing. Saber alter didn't disappoint at all but then shouldn't there also be like a Caster alter, or a Berserker alter? The shadow managed to get their hands on a lot of the servants, I'm wondering why it just didn't turn all of them to the dark side. Come to think of it, Lancer also got consumed or whatever by the shadow, as well as Archer, I think? Yeah I don't exactly remember the details of the end of unlimited blade works so I don't really know how the whole Archer/Shirou thing is supposed to work. Anyhow, I'm guessing archer is like, gone now, after losing an entire arm?? Or he's in shirou? Or he is shirou? Man I just wish gilgamesh didn't just disappear after two minutes. Lost a leg but come on getting impaled or having a limb severed doesn't mean anything in this series lol |
  NYANPASU  5700XT |
| Another great movie! And with even darker tone than before, even more personal. I'm honestly glad this movie mini-series doesn't shy off from asking difficult questions, from putting up contrast of broken, abused and scared girl wanting just simple happiness with stealing this happiness from everyone else by her very own jealousy. And I like how Shirou is finally a protagonist who is being selfish for the one person he really loves (the scene where he embraced her in the rain was simply masterpiece with the monologue going and the music playing in the background, very emotional). I'm happy they didn't shy off from showing sex between Shirou and Sakura like other adaptations did as their initimate relationship is centerpiece of this route and it wouldn't work it otherwise and it's a good thing they even included rape scene as it was catalyst of her final descent to the madness. Dunno how to feel about the inclusion of all those comic little demons or Alice in Wonderland dream, those things felt like unneeded creativity of the director as there was not such thing in the novels. But I guess with the rest of the movie being great in setting its atmosphere one can just overlook those minor wtf breakings of the 4th wall. We also got more epic fights (Saber vs. Berserker certainly being a one and Archer's Rho Aios chant was another). And seeing Rin, Rider and even Illya under one roof was strangely satifying as it's exactly those precious calm moments that shows the stakes of whole Holy Grail War. |
| The action was still nice to look at, nothing new. What surprised me pleasantly was Shirou x Sakura. The plot became more engaging as well. |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
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