JoJo no Kimyou na Bouken Part 5: Ougon no Kaze Episode 30 Discussion

CondemneDio said:

If I had to rank them now: 1st season, Diamond is Unbreakable, Stardust Crusaders, and lastly, Vento Aureo.

My biggest problem with Part 5 is how Giorno is such a fucking Gary Stu. The stakes are non-existent since Giorno just solves everything.

WorldoverHeaven said:

giorno isnt a gary stue for fuck sake can you at least name situation where he is

CondemneDio said:

He literally can analyze every enemy stand in a few seconds, and come up with the perfect bullshit plan against it. He never has actualy trouble against any of his foes.

WorldoverHeaven said:

so what him being smart is gary stue and he has had many problems when dealing with other stand users

CondemneDio said:

He does it too well. It's okay to have smart characters, but there's a difference between being smart, and having access to the meta-knowledge of the situation (which Giorno basically has at this point).

Mezo-RPWPA said:


didn't mean to be negative that much. Maybe I didn't focus much on the 22nd episode for other reasons but I found it was like bad in this one. at least I personally found it to be the worst in the whole season. I still said it had good plot tho.

Mezo-RPWPA said:




the art was horrible. This episode felt like an amature drawing the characters. they looked like shit, there was a time in the episode when they were looking left and it felt like a completely horribly drawn version of the characters. IDK how you thought this was good at all tbh.

Shoryuuken said:

What a coincidence seeing this and a topic about it right underneath it.

Modernoir said:

How so? Every Stand battle so far has helped push things forwards in some way. B.I.G. gave us Trish's major development and her awakening her Stand, Clash/Talking Head further set-up the conflict to come by linking back to the previous eps via introducing Diavolo's personal guard which in return perfectly sets up Green Day & Oasis as the penultimate arc thanks to just how well built-up Ciocolatta and Secco have been since they were first teased as the ones who killed Sorbet and Gelato. Loved how formidable they both seemed this ep, Ciocolatta especially, having a Stand that does so much indiscriminate damage puts him just around the same level as DIO in terms of how scummy he is.

Hobgoblin2099 said:


Out of curiosity, which season was your favorite?

I know people here were iffy on it, but I liked Diamond is Unbreakable more than Vento Aureo. Sure, things were slower paced and there were goofier episodes, but that's what helped me wind up getting invested in the characters.

Vento Aureo feels like it's going by too fast for me. I also don't enjoy the main villain too much. That said, the anime adaptation has made this part more enjoyable for me than when I read the manga.

Comander-07 said:
What a coincidence indeed. I guess I am right then.

Hot not so? We already encountered the boss. Everything between that and some small fry now feels like filler content. If Narancia died that would have atleast put something on the table. This just feels like "yeah Giorno and Mista will win anyway so who cares". Maybe its also that they dont finish them off quickly. Idk. Its a feeling.

good. I hoped so.

kondee said:


What are you talking about? I can't see how you thought this was at all horrible. I thought it was one of the better quality ones. Are you sure you're watching the same episode? I'm honestly pausing to find anything even remotely off-model or bad.

From what I'm reading, you seem to be in the minority here. I'm trying to understand how something atrocious like episode 22 gets by you but somehow this episode is bad animation/artwork wise let alone THE WORST. I'm open to screencaps of whatever scene you found terrible. I could have missed something since I've watched this super late.

CondemneDio said:

He does it too well. It's okay to have smart characters, but there's a difference between being smart, and having access to the meta-knowledge of the situation (which Giorno basically has at this point).

darkstom248 said:
Yeah, I don't understand how Giorno is a Gary Stu at all. He might figure things out in a fight (and you might notice that he has actually been getting better and faster at identifying what is going on with a stand throughout the part, showing progress in his fighting skills) but he is almost always incapacitated in the fights he takes a part in. The only fights that he has managed on his own so far off the top of my head are Bruno, Black Sabbath, and Babyface. Every other fight he takes a part in he is completely knocked out of like Grateful Dead or virtually useless like with White Album.

Modernoir said:

Giorno isn't a stu at all though. Being adept at making quick decisions and analysis has been a Joestar's trait since Joseph. And besides, while Giorno figures stuff out (that most of the time can be greatly inferred beforehand by the reader/watcher) it doesn't mean he always comes out on top with the solutions right away. He'd have died if it weren't for Mista covering his ass in White Album and he'd have been toast in the very first fight for the whole gang in the whole part (Soft Machine).
The "stu" argument is overused and has gotten to the point where people just use it as a buzzword, if Giorno was a stu he'd be worshipped by everyone from the start, but he had to get to where he is by earning the group's trust through their fights, that's what makes him so different compared to the previous JoJo's who were more reactionary, Giorno's a different sort of Joestar entirely and it's shown pretty well through how even though his Stand is powerful it's at its best when it's used in conjunction with the other members of the group. He's had more than enough moments of vulnerability and weakness too, the pure distraughtness we see from him when he has to come to terms with the fact that even with his ability he couldn't save Abbacchio and now was too late to save Bruno gave a great glimpse into the fact that he's still got growing to do in the harsh world he sets to make a change in.

honestly just tired of seeing this "gary stu" blanket criticism when it's blatantly false. It's such a weak cop-out argument that doesn't make sense, Giorno fucks up way too much and shows way more signs of being human to be a gary stu. Is Joseph a gary stu as well? He wins all his fights through even more absurd means and rarely has a set-back because fate is by him every step of the way, including at the very end with how he defeats Kars. Characters in this series are built off more exaggerated traits, thus why the series is a Bizarre adventure. Joestars in the past have had far more egregious moments than Giorno, at least Giorno figures out a Stand ability but isn't instantly able to defeat it. He figured out the Grateful Dead but past that point it was entirely up to Mista and Bruno to combat Prosciutto and Pesci. He figured out Green Day but that wasn't even stu-like, it was visually demonstrated that the lower something goes the more mold will rapidly grow on it. You want an actual example of that fits with the "gary stu" critique? Not only 80% of Joseph's runtime in BT (don't get me wrong I love the part), but Jotaro in SDC is full of it. He has the worst offences by beating Stand users because he A. Can just punch harder or B. Can actually asspull a win with no elaborate plans or explanations like Giorno's GE or Joseph's hamon tricks. Remember Star Finger? Remember how he sucked up Enya's Stand through SP just because he could do that at that point? The criticisms people make on this series feel like they're so lacking in self-awareness sometimes I have to actually wonder if you're being serious or not.

CondemneDio said:

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I.
Complaint noted, and disregarded.

CondemneDio said:
Giorno rarely needs help from anyone.

First, he was hated by the group.

R3K_ said:

>Black Sabbath - he literally says that Koichi's power was the exact thing he needed to win
>The Grateful Dead - unable to fight
>White Album - he worked with Mista and they complement each other
>Clash and Talking Head - Narancia had to do the job
>Notorious B.I.G - Trish did
>Green Day and Oasis - Bruno and Mista works with him

The obnly fight he solo'ed was Baby Face, and Man in the Mirrorr... kinda.


Uhm, what.

CondemneDio said:
And that's because Araki wanted the other characters to have moments too, most probably.
Any other problem they have gets cleared by Giorno with no difficulty.

Do you not remember how Giorno was welcomed into the gang?

R3K_ said:

So... he NEEDS help.


Yes, only Abbachio hated him. The rest was like... "ok, a new member, let's make fun of him!"... is that hatred? lol

CondemneDio said:

Yes, sometimes. Even Jotaro needed help, and I don't think you're saying he is not a Gary Stu for it, right?

Indifference is not love, so my point stands.

CondemneDio said:

To appease your sand-filled vagina, let's go over some Gary Stu traits.

Perfect hero who can do no wrong: check. Giorno is basically portrayed the second coming of Jesus.
Good looks; check. If you can forgive the croissant black holes stuck to his hair.
Talented; check. Giorno rarely needs help from anyone. In fact, he can boss around adults because he is more talented than people 10 or 20 years older than him.
No flaws; check. Giorno can do no wrong. This is also a part of a bigger problem. Giorno really has very little personality to begin with, let alone flaws that would make him a believable character.
Loved by everyone; check, kinda. First, he was hated by the group. He showed a fraction of his Jesus powers, and they all think he is the best thing since sliced bread (with the sole exception of lip-stick policeman).
All the character has took them no effort; check. Giorno's destiny was to become something greater than a commoner. His stand power is what amplifies this.

You're probably going to disagree with these points, and feel free to.

CondemneDio said:

It's a second language to me too, and that's why I make doubly sure to make my points clean, well-written, and straight to the point.

I think we're done here.

R3K_ said:

So, for you, people only hate or love somebody? Nothing in between? lol

Jotaro literally solo'ed: Dark Blue Moon, Strength, Yellow Temperance, Wheel of Fortune, Enya, High Priestess, Geb (kind of), Anubis, Set and D'Arby the Gambler.

CondemneDio said:

And that's because Araki wanted the other characters to have moments too, most probably.
Any other problem they have gets cleared by Giorno with no difficulty.

Do you not remember how Giorno was welcomed into the gang?

CondemneDio said:

?
You misunderstood me most probably.
Hate, love, and indifference in a spectrum. Being indifferent about someone is neither love nor hate.

We could go on and count the percentages of how many foes each offending Jojo soloes, but that's a bit of a fruitless labor really.

Modernoir said:

>Perfect hero who can do no wrong: check. Giorno is basically portrayed the second coming of Jesus.
Yes of course, because right from the start he was treated as a saint by everyone right? That's why the group gave him the cold-shoulder at the start and why Abba pissed in a cup to greet him right? The only person to actually give Gio the benefit of the doubt from the start was Mista and that's because he's just a great guy in general. Giorno had to earn Fugo's respect in the MiTM fight by being ballsy, he gained Narancia's approval from defending him numerous times in arguments and by directly assisting him in the Clash/Talking Heads fight, and even Abbacchio who goes completely against what you're saying dies without ever verbally expressing his approval to Giorno (but hints at it since he kept that last piece of stone in his hand so that Giorno could trace its origins back to the stone replica he created. It was subtle, but a really nice end to the back-and-forth relationship the two had). Gio isn't literally portrayed as Jesus (despite the biblical imagery here and there), he's a Joestar taking on the role of an actual leader rather than a reactionary protag like the others. That isn't inherently bad.
>Good looks; check. If you can forgive the croissant black holes stuck to his hair.
So, every JoJo then?
>Talented; check. Giorno rarely needs help from anyone. In fact, he can boss around adults because he is more talented than people 10 or 20 years older than him.
Did we watch the same anime? Do you not recall the countless times Giorno has been incapacitated or left useless in a fight? Being deflated in Soft Machine to rely on Abba to solve the mystery, being completely incapacitated in Grateful Dead/Beach Boy, getting his shit royally pushed in in White Album (A stand that might as well have been a direct counter to his ability to create life, if it weren't for Mista Giorno would've been completely useless), or how about the time he was completely incapacitated in Clash/Talking Head and had to put his full faith in Narancia to defeat Squallo and Tiziano? He's talented, but so are all JoJo's. Seriously. Joseph, Jotaro and Josuke play some 4D chess numerous times in their parts, and besides, Giorno takes plenty of shit at the start and it only stops because he proves to the group that he's worth taking seriously. That's called character growth.
>No flaws; check. Giorno can do no wrong. This is also a part of a bigger problem. Giorno really has very little personality to begin with, let alone flaws that would make him a believable character.
The more you go in the more it sounds like you haven't even been watching the show. Giorno can do plenty wrong, him using himself to force Abba into using his Stand was by all means a ridiculously risky move but it paid off, unlike later on like in White Album where he makes reckless decisions under pressure like driving the car into the canal (gee, taking a Stand user who's abilities revolve around ice under water? Sasuga Giorno) which was only salvaged by Mista and their combined efforts after. Not only that but he fucks up at the moments he SHOULD be perfect for, his Stand could potentially save anyone but he's not only fucked up once but twice with Bruno and Abbacchio. I don't know how you can see his reaction to Abba's death and the denial he exclaims when Bruno tells Giorno he was too late in saving him in the car and then tell me Gio has no personality traits that make him human.
>Loved by everyone; check, kinda. First, he was hated by the group. He showed a fraction of his Jesus powers, and they all think he is the best thing since sliced bread (with the sole exception of lip-stick policeman).
You literally debunk yourself in the first line of this complaint. He wasn't loved by everyone at the start, he had to earn his way to be trusted by the members of Bruno's gang, and even then all the way until the end Abba was disapproving/tsundere towards him. What is your complaint? That it's unreasonable for a gang to actually want to get along to efficiently work together? Of course the group will like Giorno by the end, he demonstrated enough qualities as a leader to inspire them while also showing his full trust in his teammates by leaving his life in the hands of them several times.
>All the character has took them no effort; check. Giorno's destiny was to become something greater than a commoner. His stand power is what amplifies this.
That was never just Giorno's destiny though. This was explained in the 2nd episode mate, his life started at the bottom of the barrel until by chance he met and saved a wounded gangster on the street just because the man seemed as lonely as him. The act of kindness he gave resulted in his life being changed for the better all thanks to that man, and it makes perfect sense why that gangster inspired him to follow his dream. He knew first-hand just how shit Italy was thanks to his experience growing up in it, does it not make sense that he'd pursue a dream to fix it? He wouldn't have gotten anywhere in the gang if he'd went solo, as shown by the numerous times throughout the part where he would've fuckin' died if he was on his own.

I disagree with everything you've had to say but I'm at least glad you went into detail this time. I'd honestly advise you to give this part and Giorno more of an open chance, I'm not sure where you got these thoughts from when most of them are easily disprovable/don't make too much sense, but hey there's 9 more eps left so who knows maybe you'll like him a bit better by the end. Or not. Not every part in the series is for everyone, I just hope you can see that a lot of your criticisms apply far more to other characters in the series than Giorno.

Modernoir said:

Now this is just ridiculous. You can't call other people stupid then make bottom-of-the-barrel arguments like "Y-Yeah Giorno could've cleared every fight on his own!" despite it being proven in those exact fucking fights he'd have been rendered useless if it weren't for his teammates, as if you know better than the writer of the part himself. Are you just digging for excuses to rip on the character or something? Why are you so obsessed with labelling characters as gary stus? Can you not take a character on their own merits? Do you have to rely on buzzwords because nuance is a concept you can't understand? If you're really this unwilling to see how many times your criticisms have been invalidated by actual evidence then we're done here, I think you've embarrassed yourself in this thread enough after all. It's like arguing with someone who's only thoughts on Golden Wind come from them skim-reading meme criticisms on 4chan JoJo threads lmfao

R3K_ said:

"First, we was hated by the group." You literally said that lol

Also, you were the one that said Giorno didn't need help, I demonstrate he did, you answered a laughable "Araki wanted the other characters to have moments too" "even Jotaro needed help", and I showed the difference.

Some people here are kind of too defensive about your criticism, but you're not so different now.

CondemneDio said:

About the perfect hero part: I wasn't referring to how the world inside the anime reacts to him. We see very early on how he is a saint, he has super powers, and we see him doing good things.

Almost every Jojo is a Gary Stu to some degree. The only ones I would exempt are probably parts 4, 7 and 8.

Giorno is a key factor in most conflicts, and outside of conflicts too. He either takes out enemies, or gives information/clues to the other members of the gang.

I'll re-word this one a bit for you: any mistakes Giorno makes have no real consequences. Another part of this is flaws of personality, which he basically does not have.

Not every Gary Stu character has to meet every crtieria at the start of their character arc.

It's pretty pointless to speculate about what Giorno would've done had he not become a ganster. Just my opinion.

It's good to see someone here is not so quick to fling insults at me and have actual conversations. I already gave it a chance years ago when I read it, not my favorite part. Watching the anime version really makes the bad points stick out to me.
And as I think I've made clear at this point, many character in Jojo are Gary Stus. Giorno included, and one of the most egregious examples too.

CondemneDio said:

And that's because Araki wanted the other characters to have moments too, most probably.
Any other problem they have gets cleared by Giorno with no difficulty.

Do you not remember how Giorno was welcomed into the gang?

darkstom248 said:

Those are the majority of the fights he is in though. The other fights are soloed by the other gang members or only involve villains. I honestly don't know how you can honestly say completely seriously that a character that is completely absent from fights or if he is present needs help to win it 90% of the time. The other users basically listed every fight Giorno has even a passing influence in and most of them he either messed up and needed help or was completely useless from the start of the fight. So again, how is he a Gary Stu that wins every fight he is a part of without difficulty.

And yeah he was welcomed. Bruno, the boss, introduced him. Why wouldn't they welcome him? He's a coworker. Even then Abbacchio doesn't like him for a majority of the part like many workplace environments.

Shoryuuken said:
@Comander-07

It's not a right or wrong situation. It almost never is in cinemá, you either feel it or not.

R3K_ said:
Uhm, what.
How exactly was he hated?