iasuru said: Safeanew said: Yeah and that is what structures reality as in there is no reality without the illusion of common sense. Common sense is not only an unwritten rule book, it is the thing guides everyones actions without them having to directly believe in it. Ok so what does this have to do with escapism or not. How does this tie up. I don't see it. The common sense is escapism itself it functions because it is common sense so one should not question it, because one have to think like everbody else because if one don't one is a 'troll', an 'intelectual dishonest person' and 'one escapes from reality'. I claim that thinking starts when common sense ends. |
Safeanew said: iasuru said: Ok so what does this have to do with escapism or not. How does this tie up. I don't see it. The common sense is escapism itself it functions because it is common sense so one should not question it, because one have to think like everbody else because if one don't one is a 'troll', an 'intelectual dishonest person' and 'one escapes from reality'. I claim that thinking starts when common sense ends. But that isn't escapism. You never think about what a common sense is. It just is. Now arguing if something is common sense or not, that may be a form of escapism. Common sense itself isn't a form of escapism. |
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Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: It is the same thing as ideology and my claim is that it structures even how we speak, what words we use and what we believe is common sense. I don't mean to confuse with big names, just listing my sources for curious minds. Of course I would not think anyone in this forum being able to understand my claims in this short amount of time and my messy way of doing things, what I look for is what degree of manners and interest people have with the ideas I tell. I find you have great manners but I find that you use language that I have hated even before I read philosophy. The theme of the words I hate is those the relate to common sense form of objectivity, that leads to idea of course everyone should agree with the ruling ideology that forms this very common sense. I am afraid even this confuses me to some degree. If "common sense" is ideology, which ideology is it? For example, the Nazis and the Bolsheviks disagreed about just about everything ideologically but they would likely both agree that breathing and water are necessary to preserve human life. Is not this an example where common senses agree but ideologies clash? No I would actually seperate common sense from fact there, I am not against using facts in ones arguments, that is an objectivity I would agree, but in the end facts are quite stupid in themselves their is no point trying to convince everyone that gravity works, it works even if one does not know it. Common sense on the other hand is things that people take for granted, one can make it a bit easy by saying that all meaning of words and language is taken for granted. Common sense is things we don't question because that is how reality works in that ideology. But that also means it is possible to change how reality works, it is possible to change common sense. Fiction gets to talk about nearly everything that is not part of common sense, that is why fiction is so important to try to understand the reality beyond the common sense people already know. |
| Speaking in absolutes seems imprudent in this case. I share your feelings on escapism from thought. In my opinion, it depends how you, as an individual, interact with the medium. This is not to say that the medium doesn't matter, but anime has tremendous variation between genres. We have to look at the actual content. The medium itself exposes you to alien culture, which could be used to escape. There are plenty of poor folks who delude themselves into thinking everyone in Japan is as big of an anime fan as them, and once they reach their nirvana, they will finally be socially accepted. Some genres are easier to delude yourself with, than others. For instance, there are many shows in the moe sol genre where nothing happens at all. Those cheery shows can be used to drift to a place where you can lay down your coat and take refuge from the storm. Whether we are even able to choose lose our sense of self in a particular activity or not is a mystery to me. No matter the case, it's evident to me that you can lose your sense of person. Escapism, does have a negative connotation, but it isn't innately wicked. Humans probably need something to bolster themselves against tragedy. It is risky to elaborate on what anime is to me. Much like art, anime would suffer from superfluous conceptualization. A couple obvious things would be that the medium is typically animated, stylized, and Japanese. |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: I am afraid even this confuses me to some degree. If "common sense" is ideology, which ideology is it? For example, the Nazis and the Bolsheviks disagreed about just about everything ideologically but they would likely both agree that breathing and water are necessary to preserve human life. Is not this an example where common senses agree but ideologies clash? No I would actually seperate common sense from fact there, I am not against using facts in ones arguments, that is an objectivity I would agree, but in the end facts are quite stupid in themselves their is no point trying to convince everyone that gravity works, it works even if one does not know it. Common sense on the other hand is things that people take for granted, one can make it a bit easy by saying that all meaning of words and language is taken for granted. Common sense is things we don't question because that is how reality works in that ideology. But that also means it is possible to change how reality works, it is possible to change common sense. Fiction gets to talk about nearly everything that is not part of common sense, that is why fiction is so important to try to understand the reality beyond the common sense people already know. I suppose I am a bit confused by the distinction. I will try to tell it back to you and you can tell me if I am wrong or if I am right about your meaning. Unfortunately because I still do not understand this, I will need to put aside your explanation of fiction for a different reply until I figure this out. "Humans need water to drink in order to live" is a fact "The definition of 'water'" is an idealogy Is that a fair example? |
iasuru said: Safeanew said: The common sense is escapism itself it functions because it is common sense so one should not question it, because one have to think like everbody else because if one don't one is a 'troll', an 'intelectual dishonest person' and 'one escapes from reality'. I claim that thinking starts when common sense ends. But that isn't escapism. You never think about what a common sense is. It just is. Now arguing if something is common sense or not, that may be a form of escapism. Common sense itself isn't a form of escapism. Well I call common sense escapism because that is how it functions, you follow something that 'is' without deciding for yourself if it is really true, that is how todays society is more religious then ever, people believe in things without directly believing in it. |
Safeanew said: iasuru said: But that isn't escapism. You never think about what a common sense is. It just is. Now arguing if something is common sense or not, that may be a form of escapism. Common sense itself isn't a form of escapism. Well I call common sense escapism because that is how it functions, you follow something that 'is' without deciding for yourself if it is really true, that is how todays society is more religious then ever, people believe in things without directly believing in it. How is it something that escapes from reality when you don't even interact with it in any way at all. Today's society isn't as religious as ever. What? We compare this to the 1400s and it's not even comparable. On top of that, religion can be a form of escapism. For example, people use religion to ignore about dying because to them if they die a good person they go to heaven. That is a form of believing. So now, how does common sense become a form of escapism? Let's not run around the question here. Is it a form of: - The fish died why? common sense: the tank is dirty. But then that's the actual reality. Not something that escapes reality. |
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Youxia said: Speaking in absolutes seems imprudent in this case. I share your feelings on escapism from thought. In my opinion, it depends how you, as an individual, interact with the medium. This is not to say that the medium doesn't matter, but anime has tremendous variation between genres. We have to look at the actual content. The medium itself exposes you to alien culture, which could be used to escape. There are plenty of poor folks who delude themselves into thinking everyone in Japan is as big of an anime fan as them, and once they reach their nirvana, they will finally be socially accepted. Some genres are easier to delude yourself with, than others. For instance, there are many shows in the moe sol genre where nothing happens at all. Those cheery shows can be used to drift to a place where you can lay down your coat and take refuge from the storm. Whether we are even able to choose lose our sense of self in a particular activity or not is a mystery to me. No matter the case, it's evident to me that you can lose your sense of person. Escapism, does have a negative connotation, but it isn't innately wicked. Humans probably need something to bolster themselves against tragedy. It is risky to elaborate on what anime is to me. Much like art, anime would suffer from superfluous conceptualization. A couple obvious things would be that the medium is typically animated, stylized, and Japanese. I like your comment! I am speaking in absolutes because my claims is what I believe is the truth and if I am wrong it should hurt me in that I face the full impact of my claims. I agree that we can have delusions based on fiction, but delusions themselves is part of the truth I am talking about. There is no reality without delusions. I think you don't have to worry about superfluous conceptualization, the only way to find out if something is superfluous is to use it. But anime being animated is a great point, theirs special freedom in animation that I like. |
Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: No I would actually seperate common sense from fact there, I am not against using facts in ones arguments, that is an objectivity I would agree, but in the end facts are quite stupid in themselves their is no point trying to convince everyone that gravity works, it works even if one does not know it. Common sense on the other hand is things that people take for granted, one can make it a bit easy by saying that all meaning of words and language is taken for granted. Common sense is things we don't question because that is how reality works in that ideology. But that also means it is possible to change how reality works, it is possible to change common sense. Fiction gets to talk about nearly everything that is not part of common sense, that is why fiction is so important to try to understand the reality beyond the common sense people already know. I suppose I am a bit confused by the distinction. I will try to tell it back to you and you can tell me if I am wrong or if I am right about your meaning. Unfortunately because I still do not understand this, I will need to put aside your explanation of fiction for a different reply until I figure this out. "Humans need water to drink in order to live" is a fact "The definition of 'water'" is an idealogy Is that a fair example? Well it is a bit more complicated, common sense is mostly what guides behaviour. I am mostly talking about norms when talking about common sense. One example of ideology is how should a toilet function, another is how do dating work. In this way it must show in how we speak, because it guides how people should act how people should get a job and all the invisible barriers of entry because one speaks in the wrong way. This also why everyday life is always political, why is a certain way of living possible but another not, it is very systemized in how we speak. |
iasuru said: Safeanew said: Well I call common sense escapism because that is how it functions, you follow something that 'is' without deciding for yourself if it is really true, that is how todays society is more religious then ever, people believe in things without directly believing in it. How is it something that escapes from reality when you don't even interact with it in any way at all. Today's society isn't as religious as ever. What? We compare this to the 1400s and it's not even comparable. On top of that, religion can be a form of escapism. For example, people use religion to ignore about dying because to them if they die a good person they go to heaven. That is a form of believing. So now, how does common sense become a form of escapism? Let's not run around the question here. Is it a form of: - The fish died why? common sense: the tank is dirty. But then that's the actual reality. Not something that escapes reality. That is a fact, not what I call common sense, if it not certain that the fish died because of it , it is a hypothesis. Common sense enters when it is not fact based but group based. As in I believe in it because the majority believes in it. |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: I suppose I am a bit confused by the distinction. I will try to tell it back to you and you can tell me if I am wrong or if I am right about your meaning. Unfortunately because I still do not understand this, I will need to put aside your explanation of fiction for a different reply until I figure this out. "Humans need water to drink in order to live" is a fact "The definition of 'water'" is an idealogy Is that a fair example? Well it is a bit more complicated, common sense is mostly what guides behaviour. I am mostly talking about norms when talking about common sense. One example of ideology is how should a toilet function, another is how do dating work. In this way it must show in how we speak, because it guides how people should act how people should get a job and all the invisible barriers of entry because one speaks in the wrong way. This also why everyday life is always political, why is a certain way of living possible but another not, it is very systemized in how we speak. I am sorry but I still am not sure what you mean by idealogy/common sense. You gave some examples, but I still am unsure about the pure definition of the concept. Is it just that anything that a majority agrees upon is this type of ideology? |
Safeanew said: iasuru said: How is it something that escapes from reality when you don't even interact with it in any way at all. Today's society isn't as religious as ever. What? We compare this to the 1400s and it's not even comparable. On top of that, religion can be a form of escapism. For example, people use religion to ignore about dying because to them if they die a good person they go to heaven. That is a form of believing. So now, how does common sense become a form of escapism? Let's not run around the question here. Is it a form of: - The fish died why? common sense: the tank is dirty. But then that's the actual reality. Not something that escapes reality. That is a fact, not what I call common sense, if it not certain that the fish died because of it , it is a hypothesis. Common sense enters when it is not fact based but group based. As in I believe in it because the majority believes in it. Okay. You didn't answer my question. How does common sense become a form of escapism. I gave an example on how it could be but it really isn't. So now, tell me how it becomes a form of escapism. |
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| Yeah, Anime is escapism for me if I can really relate to the series. |
| One needs to ask what escapism means: Escape from what? Most uses of the word would that escapism is escaping from social reality, participation in society, living up to the duties that human beings require. The very term itself seems steeped in a traditional outlook, where it can be thought that there is a right, authentic path. In that sense, an exercise is either intellectually engaging or it is not; in the latter, it merely passes the time. That's what entertainment is. That's what art is -- it passes time. Since anything that requires intellectual engagement towards some end produces work, and therefore utility, and cannot be art. Note that if we are to take the concept of escapism seriously, then we need to regard it in context i.e. we cannot invoke some postmodernist questioning of authenticity while asserting authenticity as a clear dichotomy against escapism. So now the stage is clear. Anime is either art and entertainment, or it is not. It clearly is art and entertainment. It clearly does not produce any kind of direct utility. It, therefore, must be escapism. If it is not escapism, then it is not art, and it cannot be enjoyed in itself, without means to an external goal. Now you may object to this analysis using some vernacular concept of subjective art orthogonal to utility, but then I say you are discarding your own context. If authenticity of experience is purely subjective, then escapism is subjective. /end thread If there is escapism, then there is objectivity. Still /end thread You're welcome. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| Anime or in generall any fiction, fantasy we watch, read is escapism. When we have a huge workload in life, stress we want to relieve we seek for entertainment. As you said since we think entertainment could help us escape from reality, we preemptively made up our mind that we could escape from reality if this is something entertaining, that is itself escapism, right? But that's not the case. We don't think like" Oh, if i grab this fiction book and read it, i could escape reality.",no it's not,it just happens without our consent. That's why we search for anime, fiction any other media for escapism. Because when we are into something, we think we're part of it,our cognitive brain losses most of the senses of reality and we lost in the world of fiction. Why?Because fictional world is some much brighter,magical, chaotic and what not, nothing alike our real world or your day to day life. It's all psychology. Also as you said" Modern objectivity is real escapism", is also correct but for some cases. Like you've something bad happen to you, you can't escape from it by just watching anime, reading books. You have to face the reality otherwise it it will not go away. But as for relieving stress, ease your brain you don't need modern objectivity you just need some entertainment whether it is fictional or practical. |
| What the fuck is modern objectivity |
| What is anime for me? An enjoyable medium that's for sure! The stuff's fun af also anime tiddies |
Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: Well it is a bit more complicated, common sense is mostly what guides behaviour. I am mostly talking about norms when talking about common sense. One example of ideology is how should a toilet function, another is how do dating work. In this way it must show in how we speak, because it guides how people should act how people should get a job and all the invisible barriers of entry because one speaks in the wrong way. This also why everyday life is always political, why is a certain way of living possible but another not, it is very systemized in how we speak. I am sorry but I still am not sure what you mean by idealogy/common sense. You gave some examples, but I still am unsure about the pure definition of the concept. Is it just that anything that a majority agrees upon is this type of ideology? Well there is no pure definition of it, because it is something one have to analys and study to be able to grasp or come from a position other then the ideology one talks about, because it is essentially how reality is structured for people, how people think things should be. So it is not only some easy pointed out element, it is often the whole way of speaking people do, what I point out is that when people say that something is common sense, they are really talking about the ideology they come from and are not ready to treat my claims as another claim from an equal, but someone who does not understand their view of reality that they take for granted. |
iasuru said: Safeanew said: That is a fact, not what I call common sense, if it not certain that the fish died because of it , it is a hypothesis. Common sense enters when it is not fact based but group based. As in I believe in it because the majority believes in it. Okay. You didn't answer my question. How does common sense become a form of escapism. I gave an example on how it could be but it really isn't. So now, tell me how it becomes a form of escapism. Well mostly it is by treating people like fools for having different opinions. Specifically trying to make people talk in a certain way to avoid having to accept that people don't agree about reality itself, because it is only experienced through illusion makes it that no one can hold the unbiased objective opinion, because that would avoid the point of not agreeing in the first place. I am saying common sense is an escape from really listening to other people. |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: I am sorry but I still am not sure what you mean by idealogy/common sense. You gave some examples, but I still am unsure about the pure definition of the concept. Is it just that anything that a majority agrees upon is this type of ideology? Well there is no pure definition of it, because it is something one have to analys and study to be able to grasp or come from a position other then the ideology one talks about, because it is essentially how reality is structured for people, how people think things should be. So it is not only some easy pointed out element, it is often the whole way of speaking people do, what I point out is that when people say that something is common sense, they are really talking about the ideology they come from and are not ready to treat my claims as another claim from an equal, but someone who does not understand their view of reality that they take for granted. So there is no definition of it, than why is it bad to be a part of it? Since we cannot use definitions (as per your comment rejecting any "sources" for definitions as common sense), and we cannot make a clear definition of this common sense, perhaps it would be wiser to discern why it is negative. If I were to make a quick theory, I would argue that things are bad because of their consequences: If someone stabs my hand, I can say why it is bad, because it causes me physical pain and may handicap me. If someone files a lawsuit and wins, I can say it is bad for me because I will lose money and reputation. If this is indeed a fair evaluation of "bad", then what is the consequence of this common sense you're criticizing that makes it thusly bad? |
Safeanew said: iasuru said: Okay. You didn't answer my question. How does common sense become a form of escapism. I gave an example on how it could be but it really isn't. So now, tell me how it becomes a form of escapism. Well mostly it is by treating people like fools for having different opinions. Specifically trying to make people talk in a certain way to avoid having to accept that people don't agree about reality itself, because it is only experienced through illusion makes it that no one can hold the unbiased objective opinion, because that would avoid the point of not agreeing in the first place. I am saying common sense is an escape from really listening to other people. I think you are mixing up escape and escapism here. You are likely making something simple more complicated for no reason. So if trying to make people talk in a certain way is escapism, does that mean that laws are escapism. You could say that "common sense is an escape from really listening to other people". Yeah an escape, not an escapism. You sure you didn't get your terms mixed up? |
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DrakoWiz said: Watching anything with a beta pussy selfinsert and boring blocks of characters you call waifus who are meant only for fanservice, is by default meant to be nothing but escapism and empowerment for the otakus to which this trash is geared towards. How are you gonna answer to this OP? "It's all objective, it's all in you head, I can smell colors!" How would that conclude that they are escaping from something, 'power fantasy' is often used to say that the very act of engaging with fiction, of trying to relate to that world is to replace the reality one lives in, why could they not enjoy 'power fantasies' while not rejecting reality? Just because some story seems to tell the perfect story without real troubles, does not mean it functions as a 'power fantasy' for people. Characters that are made to be relatable to certain people does not have to be a bad character just because it like in isekai come from a bad position in life and gets transported to a world that just works for that person. What is interesting with isekais is the alternative world that changes what truly matters in a person and by such explore what many 'faults' in persons can actually be, they are forced to accept a certain reality that does not accept their desires of living in the world. So it don't have to work as escapist, rather it can show desires one have that don't fit in with society, but without trying to escape the reality one lives in. |
katsucats said: One needs to ask what escapism means: Escape from what? Most uses of the word would that escapism is escaping from social reality, participation in society, living up to the duties that human beings require. The very term itself seems steeped in a traditional outlook, where it can be thought that there is a right, authentic path. In that sense, an exercise is either intellectually engaging or it is not; in the latter, it merely passes the time. That's what entertainment is. That's what art is -- it passes time. Since anything that requires intellectual engagement towards some end produces work, and therefore utility, and cannot be art. Note that if we are to take the concept of escapism seriously, then we need to regard it in context i.e. we cannot invoke some postmodernist questioning of authenticity while asserting authenticity as a clear dichotomy against escapism. So now the stage is clear. Anime is either art and entertainment, or it is not. It clearly is art and entertainment. It clearly does not produce any kind of direct utility. It, therefore, must be escapism. If it is not escapism, then it is not art, and it cannot be enjoyed in itself, without means to an external goal. Now you may object to this analysis using some vernacular concept of subjective art orthogonal to utility, but then I say you are discarding your own context. If authenticity of experience is purely subjective, then escapism is subjective. /end thread If there is escapism, then there is objectivity. Still /end thread You're welcome. Well this comment is the false objectivity I am talking about. Why would everything without utility be escapist? Does reality itself serve any utility? Fiction is important because it do not serve any goal, that is my point. |
MaxxV said: Anime or in generall any fiction, fantasy we watch, read is escapism. When we have a huge workload in life, stress we want to relieve we seek for entertainment. As you said since we think entertainment could help us escape from reality, we preemptively made up our mind that we could escape from reality if this is something entertaining, that is itself escapism, right? But that's not the case. We don't think like" Oh, if i grab this fiction book and read it, i could escape reality.",no it's not,it just happens without our consent. That's why we search for anime, fiction any other media for escapism. Because when we are into something, we think we're part of it,our cognitive brain losses most of the senses of reality and we lost in the world of fiction. Why?Because fictional world is some much brighter,magical, chaotic and what not, nothing alike our real world or your day to day life. It's all psychology. Also as you said" Modern objectivity is real escapism", is also correct but for some cases. Like you've something bad happen to you, you can't escape from it by just watching anime, reading books. You have to face the reality otherwise it it will not go away. But as for relieving stress, ease your brain you don't need modern objectivity you just need some entertainment whether it is fictional or practical. I agree with this actually, with the added point that what is escapist is not the tool (as in fiction) but the avoiding itself, that is why I am for angst, angst is the only honest emotion, it says "the situation is open, anything can happen bad or good things", angst is the emotion of freedom, if one flee from angst it grows stronger because one cannot escape freedom itself. |
Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: Well there is no pure definition of it, because it is something one have to analys and study to be able to grasp or come from a position other then the ideology one talks about, because it is essentially how reality is structured for people, how people think things should be. So it is not only some easy pointed out element, it is often the whole way of speaking people do, what I point out is that when people say that something is common sense, they are really talking about the ideology they come from and are not ready to treat my claims as another claim from an equal, but someone who does not understand their view of reality that they take for granted. So there is no definition of it, than why is it bad to be a part of it? Since we cannot use definitions (as per your comment rejecting any "sources" for definitions as common sense), and we cannot make a clear definition of this common sense, perhaps it would be wiser to discern why it is negative. If I were to make a quick theory, I would argue that things are bad because of their consequences: If someone stabs my hand, I can say why it is bad, because it causes me physical pain and may handicap me. If someone files a lawsuit and wins, I can say it is bad for me because I will lose money and reputation. If this is indeed a fair evaluation of "bad", then what is the consequence of this common sense you're criticizing that makes it thusly bad? The main consequence of it is the inability to listen to other people that don't share that common sense. Common sense is like wisdom, the percieved majority opinion, what "everyone" can agree on. It is escapism in the way that one can avoid thinking by listening to the agreed upon 'wise man'. 'Wise men' are not controversial because they state what everyone already believes. Debate and discussions only comes when someone goes against common sense as in people having different opinions. That is what is political. |
Safeanew said: I agree with this actually, with the added point that what is escapist is not the tool (as in fiction) but the avoiding itself, that is why I am for angst, angst is the only honest emotion, it says "the situation is open, anything can happen bad or good things", angst is the emotion of freedom, if one flee from angst it grows stronger because one cannot escape freedom itself. Define freedom. I have a suggestion, before engaging in debates first engage a common starting point and then start discussing over it. I work in the field of science and the first thing one does when engaging in such discourses is to first and foremost establish a common starting point. THEN see how opinions diverge. And I don't think this is necessarily restricted to science. From the back and forth I am seeing here, I am just seeing word gymnastics. Not trying to demean you but your comments are a little too abstract and flowery. You talk of people not engaging in discussions under this so called garb of escapism. Then you move on to the notion of freedom. Moreover, what did you mean by angst is the emotion of freedom? Your negative thoughts restrict you or hinder your judgement. To which I ask again, what do you mean by freedom? Heck, I could also thrown in another random bone that says "Death is the only freedom" . |
 Truly a Divine Comedy  |
iasuru said: Safeanew said: Well mostly it is by treating people like fools for having different opinions. Specifically trying to make people talk in a certain way to avoid having to accept that people don't agree about reality itself, because it is only experienced through illusion makes it that no one can hold the unbiased objective opinion, because that would avoid the point of not agreeing in the first place. I am saying common sense is an escape from really listening to other people. I think you are mixing up escape and escapism here. You are likely making something simple more complicated for no reason. So if trying to make people talk in a certain way is escapism, does that mean that laws are escapism. You could say that "common sense is an escape from really listening to other people". Yeah an escape, not an escapism. You sure you didn't get your terms mixed up? My point is that how people use escapism is wrong, because the only escapist part of enjoying fiction is this 'common sense' that hinders fully exploring said fiction and seeing it as a means in itself. |
KreatorX said: Safeanew said: I agree with this actually, with the added point that what is escapist is not the tool (as in fiction) but the avoiding itself, that is why I am for angst, angst is the only honest emotion, it says "the situation is open, anything can happen bad or good things", angst is the emotion of freedom, if one flee from angst it grows stronger because one cannot escape freedom itself. Define freedom. I have a suggestion, before engaging in debates first engage a common starting point and then start discussing over it. I work in the field of science and the first thing one does when engaging in such discourses is to first and foremost establish a common starting point. THEN see how opinions diverge. And I don't think this is necessarily restricted to science. From the back and forth I am seeing here, I am just seeing word gymnastics. Not trying to demean you but your comments are a little too abstract and flowery. You talk of people not engaging in discussions under this so called garb of escapism. Then you move on to the notion of freedom. Moreover, what did you mean by angst is the emotion of freedom? Your negative thoughts restrict you or hinder your judgement. To which I ask again, what do you mean by freedom? Heck, I could also thrown in another random bone that says "Death is the only freedom" . It is impossible to establish a common ground because it is impossible to understand each other, that is why messy dialogue is needed because we want to understand each other. Freedom is that anything can happen, good or bad. Angst is the emotion of freedom because we feel it only when we are truly free to make our own choice. "Death is the only freedom" is also true in that then you are free from life, but that is not the freedom I am talking about. |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: So there is no definition of it, than why is it bad to be a part of it? Since we cannot use definitions (as per your comment rejecting any "sources" for definitions as common sense), and we cannot make a clear definition of this common sense, perhaps it would be wiser to discern why it is negative. If I were to make a quick theory, I would argue that things are bad because of their consequences: If someone stabs my hand, I can say why it is bad, because it causes me physical pain and may handicap me. If someone files a lawsuit and wins, I can say it is bad for me because I will lose money and reputation. If this is indeed a fair evaluation of "bad", then what is the consequence of this common sense you're criticizing that makes it thusly bad? The main consequence of it is the inability to listen to other people that don't share that common sense. Common sense is like wisdom, the percieved majority opinion, what "everyone" can agree on. It is escapism in the way that one can avoid thinking by listening to the agreed upon 'wise man'. 'Wise men' are not controversial because they state what everyone already believes. Debate and discussions only comes when someone goes against common sense as in people having different opinions. That is what is political. I would like to remark on what I think was a key point in your answer "'Wise men' are not controversial because they state what everyone believes." I hate to show my basic nature here, but when I think of historical figures considered "wise men", I think of Socrates and Jesus of Nazareth. However, I feel like this conflicts with your evaluation of the concept of wisdom because both Socrates and Christ were executed by their respective states for what they believed. Both of them said things very against what everyone believed at the time. Would this not make them inapplicable for you classification of wise men? |
Ringo_Elegant said: Safeanew said: The main consequence of it is the inability to listen to other people that don't share that common sense. Common sense is like wisdom, the percieved majority opinion, what "everyone" can agree on. It is escapism in the way that one can avoid thinking by listening to the agreed upon 'wise man'. 'Wise men' are not controversial because they state what everyone already believes. Debate and discussions only comes when someone goes against common sense as in people having different opinions. That is what is political. I would like to remark on what I think was a key point in your answer "'Wise men' are not controversial because they state what everyone believes." I hate to show my basic nature here, but when I think of historical figures considered "wise men", I think of Socrates and Jesus of Nazareth. However, I feel like this conflicts with your evaluation of the concept of wisdom because both Socrates and Christ were executed by their respective states for what they believed. Both of them said things very against what everyone believed at the time. Would this not make them inapplicable for you classification of wise men? Great point, but my point is that they where controversial then because they didn't seem like wise men then, that they are seen as wise men now shows us a part of what we believe in now. |
Safeanew said: It is impossible to establish a common ground because it is impossible to understand each other, that is why messy dialogue is needed because we want to understand each other. Freedom is that anything can happen, good or bad. Angst is the emotion of freedom because we feel it only when we are truly free to make our own choice. "Death is the only freedom" is also true in that then you are free from life, but that is not the freedom I am talking about. Ok, you have lost me now. You can never tell what is different when you don't have a reference starting point. As a dumb example, how does a child know that fire or hot objects hurts the skin or cause pain? He has a reference, wherein he had experienced pain due to fiddling with a burning candle. Nowhere did I talk about people fully understanding each other. You brought forth a topic with no common starting point, that is what I am getting at, because up till now I had been patient with you by trying to link whatever angles you have introduced. No luck whatsoever. If you are the kind to say there is meaning in meaninglessness then I really have nothing to say to you. Such self-contradictory statements don't help in understanding each other. And I am not being an escapist right now. I am being real. |
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
Safeanew said: Ringo_Elegant said: I would like to remark on what I think was a key point in your answer "'Wise men' are not controversial because they state what everyone believes." I hate to show my basic nature here, but when I think of historical figures considered "wise men", I think of Socrates and Jesus of Nazareth. However, I feel like this conflicts with your evaluation of the concept of wisdom because both Socrates and Christ were executed by their respective states for what they believed. Both of them said things very against what everyone believed at the time. Would this not make them inapplicable for you classification of wise men? Great point, but my point is that they where controversial then because they didn't seem like wise men then, that they are seen as wise men now shows us a part of what we believe in now. Unfortunately I am even more confused. So they were "above common sense" now, but they are not so any longer? Surely this cannot be correct, because it would seem to imply that ideas are not good or bad based on merit or utility, but rather how everyone reacts to them. Would this not have unfortunate implications, such as genocide and murder being not only acceptable, but encourage? I must be misunderstanding you. |
Tarextherex said: Escapism isn't that unhealthy, even the most successful people out there still indulge in activities like reading, watching movies, videogames etc because they basically offer you raw emotion. They make you get away from your mundane routine and keep your mind fresh really. They can even make you more open to new ideas When you're a stupid ass weeb who thinks he's entitled to have random hot girls to jump on his dick just like in his favorite shitty light novel, that's when something's wrong This seems very moralistic, why should people not feel entitled in their fictional worlds if that is the anime they watch. Why should one not be unhealthy, unhealthy is not the same as avoiding reality. One can be unhealthy, unhappy and entitled but still accept reality. Fiction don't make you get away from anything, one can't escape from reality, one can only escape from thinking about it, and if one wants to stop thinking one can use common sense, listen to the crowd and such things. |
| Hmmm honestly i never thought of anime an escapism.. For me is like a hobby,an entertainment, a way to relax. |
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KreatorX said: Safeanew said: It is impossible to establish a common ground because it is impossible to understand each other, that is why messy dialogue is needed because we want to understand each other. Freedom is that anything can happen, good or bad. Angst is the emotion of freedom because we feel it only when we are truly free to make our own choice. "Death is the only freedom" is also true in that then you are free from life, but that is not the freedom I am talking about. Ok, you have lost me now. You can never tell what is different when you don't have a reference starting point. As a dumb example, how does a child know that fire or hot objects hurts the skin or cause pain? He has a reference, wherein he had experienced pain due to fiddling with a burning candle. Nowhere did I talk about people fully understanding each other. You brought forth a topic with no common starting point, that is what I am getting at, because up till now I had been patient with you by trying to link whatever angles you have introduced. No luck whatsoever. If you are the kind to say there is meaning in meaninglessness then I really have nothing to say to you. Such self-contradictory statements don't help in understanding each other. And I am not being an escapist right now. I am being real. Well you don't want to understand me, you want me to make myself understandable to you. The only starting point we can have is wanting to understand each other. Without that you will probably never understand me. Because you want me to say what you already believe in. |
Shiroanon said: Safeanew said: you're elevating the meaning behind the series to such a high pedestal for no reason. there isn't really any deeper meaning behind it, it's just entertainment. it doesn't have to mean anything. all you're trying to do is find deeper meaning in something almost entirely meaninglessNice example, I love yuri but hate that series because it avoids everything! It treats romance like it's the same thing as eating or something just a basic need! But it promotes the creation of more yuri anime that I like. The meaning of that kind of series is the fact that I hate it! Other people like it and I would like to question their tastes because I find that they maybe are avoiding really thinking about what it means and the implications it have on life. For example what if people treat love like in sakura trick like it is just a basic need, what happens then? Am I really elevating it? That is actually what I got from it. That romance should not work like that. One can treat as a simple entertainment showing girls kissing, but that in itself means something. We don't enjoy just anything, we pick and choose between different things. So just picking something that one enjoys is filled with meaning. |
Safeanew said: I like your answer! While I myself don't think anything as a hobby, I can agree with life lessons and controversial topics. But I don't think anime have to motivate oneself to do anything, when watching anime the point should be watching anime, not any benefits it gives. I have just seen so much anime, that I couldn't at some point start thinking of it as a way to motivate and better myself. And that is true with every anime I watch, in its own way makes me feel that if I am able to relate to a character or situation. Or to learn to handle sertain scenes that I would normally not be good with, that would help me mature. But I get more expiriance by watching anime than any other entertainment medium, that is a fact. |
 |
joshua10red said: Hmmm honestly i never thought of anime an escapism.. For me is like a hobby,an entertainment, a way to relax. That is great, what do you like in the anime you like? |
Safeanew said: KreatorX said: Ok, you have lost me now. You can never tell what is different when you don't have a reference starting point. As a dumb example, how does a child know that fire or hot objects hurts the skin or cause pain? He has a reference, wherein he had experienced pain due to fiddling with a burning candle. Nowhere did I talk about people fully understanding each other. You brought forth a topic with no common starting point, that is what I am getting at, because up till now I had been patient with you by trying to link whatever angles you have introduced. No luck whatsoever. If you are the kind to say there is meaning in meaninglessness then I really have nothing to say to you. Such self-contradictory statements don't help in understanding each other. And I am not being an escapist right now. I am being real. Well you don't want to understand me, you want me to make myself understandable to you. The only starting point we can have is wanting to understand each other. Without that you will probably never understand me. Because you want me to say what you already believe in. Yes, honestly, I am not interested in understanding you since I don't know you personally. However, this is an online forum or discussion, so the least I could try is understand what is the context you are getting at. That way, I can know how I differ from your stance. Your messy dialogue/word salad isn't helping. If this is a language barrier issue then it's a different thing and I won't blame you for that. Because you want me to say what you already believe in No, I want you to say what you believe in, but make your damn context understandable. I will at the very least have a reference to see where you and I think differently.Here's the gist of everything that has transpired:- > You ask what is anime to me. I say it is escapism because it frees me from daily worries, even if momentarily. > You mention escapism is running away from critical thinking. I have proposed that isn't the case because even if it pixels/drawings have no feelings, I can invest myself in the story. >Then you bring this angle of worrying/angst is the true freedom. But then you say freedom is anything can happen, good or bad. If I am free of my daily worries momentarily, it's a good because it helps me recharge my mental state. A positive change. By your proposed definition, I really am experiencing freedom. However, your entire assertion and comments with others is going against that. I am just using logic here man. lol |
KreatorXMar 1, 2019 1:46 AM
| Truly a Divine Comedy |
zieek said: Safeanew said: I like your answer! While I myself don't think anything as a hobby, I can agree with life lessons and controversial topics. But I don't think anime have to motivate oneself to do anything, when watching anime the point should be watching anime, not any benefits it gives. I have just seen so much anime, that I couldn't at some point start thinking of it as a way to motivate and better myself. And that is true with every anime I watch, in its own way makes me feel that if I am able to relate to a character or situation. Or to learn to handle sertain scenes that I would normally not be good with, that would help me mature. But I get more expiriance by watching anime than any other entertainment medium, that is a fact. That is nice! What would you say is special about anime for you compared to other mediums, what kind of experience do you get? |
Shiroanon said: Safeanew said: yea, and romance doesn't work like that, only in fiction. it's an idealized interpretation because it's a lot more simple and fun when idealized. it's just simple entertainment, nothing more than that. for me it was entertaining because i just like seeing cute girls doing cute things, i also enjoy yuri too Am I really elevating it? That is actually what I got from it. That romance should not work like that. One can treat as a simple entertainment showing girls kissing, but that in itself means something. We don't enjoy just anything, we pick and choose between different things. So just picking something that one enjoys is filled with meaning. to be honest, i don't really get what point you're trying to get across here It is a double point found in one point, and that is to start discussion about anime more freely! The reasons you said are great! I enjoyed sakura kiss too, I am a big fan of yuri, but I had my big complaints with it. I am for discussing, there is no better way to discuss then say what one thinks, i am just promoting that idea. |
| Fiction is escapism, especially in modern times. End of discussion for me tbh. Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisoned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?... If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can! J.R.R. Tolkien said: Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls? The world outside has not become less real because the prisoner cannot see it. In using escape in this way the critics have chosen the wrong word,and, what is more, they are confusing, not always by sincere error, the Escape of the Prisoner with the Flight of the Deserter. |
KreatorX said: Safeanew said: Well you don't want to understand me, you want me to make myself understandable to you. The only starting point we can have is wanting to understand each other. Without that you will probably never understand me. Because you want me to say what you already believe in. Yes, honestly, I am not interested in understanding you since I don't know you personally. However, this is an online forum or discussion, so the least I could try is understand what is the context you are getting at. That way, I can know how I differ from your stance. Your messy dialogue/word salad isn't helping. If this is a language barrier issue then it's a different thing and I won't blame you for that. Because you want me to say what you already believe in No, I want you to say what you believe in, but make your damn context understandable. I will at the very least have a reference to see where you and I think differently.Here's the gist of everything that has transpired:- > You ask what is anime to me. I say it is escapism because it frees me from daily worries, even if momentarily. > You mention escapism is running away from critical thinking. I have proposed that isn't the case because even if it pixels/drawings have no feelings, I can invest myself in the story. >Then you bring this angle of worrying/angst is the true freedom. But then you say freedom is anything can happen, good or bad. If I am free of my daily worries momentarily, it's a good because it helps me recharge my mental state. A positive change. By your proposed definition, I really am experiencing freedom. However, your entire assertion and comments with others is going against that. I am just using logic here man. lol Yeah you have showed that our opinions is the opposite of each. you: me: Anime is escapism to you. Calling anime escapist is escapist to me. Clear divide between reality/fiction No clear divide between reality/fiction Freedom is without worry/angst Freedom is with worry/angst This what we disagree upon as I see it. |
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