Zombieland Saga Episode 8 Discussion

RobertBobert said:


In any case, from the point of view of Japanese culture, Lily is a girl because she accepts a female gender role. In particular, this is why SM refers to Haruka’s “male nature”, although she canonically has a female identity.

Jonesy974 said:
Damn, I thought the episode was pretty fucking sad till I came here and all of the LGBTQABCDEFG SJWs were here and just immediately ruined that.

Illyricus said:
And to think that I thought he would be a pedophile and the one who killed Lily when he appeared. Never been so happy to be wrong.

Walker-Vargas said:


What a coincidence, I was having fun with this episode until all of "trap" people showed up.

His way of arguing, is siting evidence from the show. But then again you used "sjw" which is about as credible as calling someone a leftard.

Jonesy974 said:


I was never on the side of team trap so I don't know why you even bothered bringing it up.
*citing*

Also the show presents no "evidence" to cite, because there is none. All its presenting are subjective hypothetical guesses. No different from a flat-earther. To them they can cite "evidence" as well, doesn't change the fact that none of it is based on any factual merit.

I can say that Lily is a female because the fact that her eyes are yellow is evidence of that. Evidence of what? Absolutely nothing, because that's just as groundless and speculative as any other theories being tossed out there.

Also calling someone a sjw because they are in fact a sjw is just calling a duck a duck. First time I've ever seen the word "leftard" being used as well. Maybe dont try to throw political terms around in an anime discussion thread if you don't know what you're talking about.

Walker-Vargas said:


A female seeming character is more likely to have an abandoned super masculine name, if they are trans, than if they are a crossdresser, which in turn is more likely than if they are a cisgendered girl. E is evidence of H, if observing E is more likely given H, than given not H. Trans characters, where female, male, or nonbinary are not anymore likely to have yellow eyes, than cis characters, so that isn't evidence.

An SJW is is a person whom's social political views, the speaker finds obnoxious. Has the erm been used any differently from this in years? Have you ever seen is used neutrally, simply to refere to a potion the speakers has no strong feeling towards? Let alone positively, by anyone who wasn't being explicitly contrarian?

Tibs212 said:
I'm curious, is their a big difference between the sub and dub of this episode?

I'm saying this because it kinda seemed cruel to the father, and how they treated the subject. I mean her father is clearly depressed, and still struggling with his sons death. The girls then, knowing the situation, invited a grieving father to, for him, a look alike's concert. I know it was bittersweet for her, but it kind of feels cruel for the father.

I feel like if this kind of thing actually happened this would be a massive controversy. An idol group
preying on the weak. I know it's actually his kid, but the general public, or him, doesn't know that.

Sangaz said:
Lilly just went straight to the top of my best girl list when I found out she's a he. God i hope someone puts out a doujin of him this upcoming comiket...

CeddyyBearr said:
So Lily is actually a boy, that's interesting. Didn't expect that. Very powerful but emotional episode. That guy was HUGE though.

We have had very long light novel titels in the past and present. But Zombieland Saga brings us probably the longest episode title to date XD What in the world!!

BastienYaiba said:
Lili is a trans girl. A girl. A she. It's not that hard to understand.

RarePepes said:
I'm pretty much with everyone else here when it comes to unnecessarily throwing traps into every other anime. I honestly find it disgusting, but that's not even my beef with it. It adds no real dimensions to a character and seems to only serve as a lightning rod for weird fetishists. Combine that with the fact that "she" is only like, 12 at most and it's even further disturbing.

Really took a very emotional episode and derailed the character development with completely superfluous details.

Jonesy974 said:


There's literally another anime airing this season with a girl who has a masculine name and is embarrassed of it, and it's actually a fairly common trope in female centric comedy anime/manga to begin with, so that "evidence" is no more substantial than it is in any other show. Also, more than likely =/= evidence. There is more than likely multiple planets in our solar system that can sustain life. Doesn't mean that its evidence that those planets actually harbor life.

Also SJW is meant to be used as a negative term. Not sure why you felt the need to point that out using words you probably had to google search.

Walker-Vargas said:


Sorry for the late reply. I didn't get notified. Firstly "evidence" isn't a synonym for "proof". If you go from simply knowing a planet exists to knowing that it is at least mildly habitable, you should assign higher odds to there being life there, than before. I literally quoted the definition of evidence.

As for her not being biologically male, Saki says it doesn't matter what junk she has. The show never suggests she's wrong. You'd be better off on team crossdressor, than team there's nothing going on here at all. Since there would still at least be some kind of point to the scene then. Our basic options are the team accepting her 1) having a really dumb name, 2) being a crossdressing boy, or 3 being trans. One of those makes the scene really fucking stupid. And another has support form the official translations, and the Japanese voice cast.

wandavion said:
This episode, wow. It was great, I cried. This anime might be one of my favorites ever!

Also, Lily is a trans girl, please respect her and everyone that can relate to her experience. Just be nice.

Hotwing-Dono said:
lol stupid sjw being ethical and considerate of other people's feelings. how dare you sjw try to bring basic human decency into my life and my forum.


trap is a slur. get over it.


lily is a lovely girl.

Jonesy974 said:


Uh no, trap is not a slur. Please take that radial liberalism snowflake bullshit out to a safe space please.

Hotwing-Dono said:


This is going to be a little long, so bare with me. If you have time to reply then you have time to read. And I will be a tiny bit condescending as well.

Firstly, this isn't a political issue. Not sure what liberalism has to do with this. I lean more right than left anyways. Even voted for Ted Cruz over Beto O'Rouke lol. That is largely irrelevant, but I feel pretty damn happy that Beto isn't in office so I'm going to bring that up any time I have a chance lol. Bragging I suppose. #KeepTexasRed

Secondly, trap is a slur. Although it is obviously unintentional, and has been used for comedic reasons: it can be degrading therefore a slur. However, I do think it is one of the weaker and less popular slurs. Not many people use the word trap compared to the n-word for black people or the c-word for asians.

Still, there is no positive connotation to the word trap. The people in the LGTBQ+ community don't use the word trap. The reason it is a slur is because it dehumanizes the person. Trap essentially belittles a person who is a transgender because it implies that a transgender is purposely entrapping people who find the trans person attractive.

If I were gay, and a woman found me attractive, then would I be a trap? "Oh no, you're attracted only to men" is no more different than "Oh no, I'm not attracted to people with dicks."

Maybe the word CATFISH would be more applicable because CATFISH is a term popularized by the hit documentary where people lied about their real identity. Those CATFISH are the real traps because they knowingly and purposely lie in order to get someone's attention.

A transgender nor a crossdresser lie about their real identity. No more than a gay man would not barge into the room and let everyone know that he's gay. You know how annoying it would be if every gay person you met introduced themselves as gay as one of the first things? "Hi, I'm Greg, and I'm also gay!" Why should a transgender have to do the same? Just because a person finds another sexually attractive it doesn't entitle that person to know the others sexuality.

I won't lie. I don't know a lot about trans people. It seems like they've suddenly started to pop up. Especially in media. It feels forced a lot of the time, but at the same time I can't get bothered by the fact that people feel like they were born in the wrong gender. And I can't be a big enough of a snowflake where I constantly get bothered by it being shoved in my face either. I'm all for representation. Forced representation... eh... kind of garbage. But if people like a black Spider-Man then why should I care?

Lily is 100% a trans woman. She was born biologically a male, but she identifies as a woman. That is the simple definition of a trans person. They never outright said that she was born a male other than saying "who cares what she has in her pants" or that she originally had a manly name. It was pretty much laid out for us people with common sense that she was a born boy though. Funny enough, you can go to the beginning of this thread and see a ton of people surprised that Lily was actually a boy after finishing the episode and reading the comments.

Not surprising how there is another layer of people that don't realize *or deny* that Lily is a transgender despite it clearly being laid out that she identifies as a girl.

"I am Lily."

Jonesy974 said:
So to sum this whole bunch of nonsense up:
1. Trap is not a slur. It was a gross ignorance of the actual definition and examples of a trap on your part.
2. Lily is not strictly transgender. Simply because there is no official confirmation from the creators. She is every theory, and she is none of those theories as long at it remains ambiguous.
3. Lily is also not a trap. Because we can't actually confirm Lily's gender. If Lily was actually confirmed a boy who identifies as a girl it would then make her trans. This would then actually put her almost in the catfish category since traps trick people unknowingly yet Lily would actually be doing it intentionally even if she meant no harm.

jal90 said:

Eh, the original is actually more obvious about Lily being trans. Masao is a masculine name and is referred as a deadname. Her genitals are mentioned. And aside from that, she remains confirmed as a girl in official media.

What I don't get is why is it so difficult to accept that a character is trans that you have to split hairs and wait for the ultimate confirmation while the text of the show already tells you that she is.

Jonesy974 said:


I knew you'd show up eventually. In all of my arguments, the "select people pushing the issue" I always mention has always been about you. No surprise you'd eventually lurk your way back here.

Jonesy974 said:
I think the better question is, why are you pushing the issue so vehemently when you have no personal stake in the matter? Why are you going full blown liberal SJW over a fictional character? You are literally the "hurrdurr she's trans because I say the evidence says so, so all other opinions are wrong" on everyone's comments who say otherwise.

Jonesy974 said:
A yaoi fan will tell you that Attack on Titan and Haikyuu are loaded with evidence that all of the male characters are gay for each other, even if its not actually true or confirmed on the authors part. Really no different from what you're doing, (aside from the actual likeliness) just with a different LGBT topic.

Jonesy974 said:
If she's trans, she's trans. If she's not, she's not. Doesn't change my feelings on the character or the show. But unless the authors say otherwise, the actual answer remains ambiguous, no matter how many dipshit SJWs say otherwise. It's a matter of trying to spread opinion as fact, simply because you personally feel strongly about the issue IRL for whatever reason.

jal90 said:
Oh boy.


Hi, glad to be somehow famous, even though a lot of people actually pushed the issue further than I ever did, on MAL, on Twitter, on YouTube, choose a platform.


Okay, first. Don't throw the "you're a SJW" narrative if you want me to take you seriously. Appearing conciliatory like you seem to -and I appreciate- and then resorting to the cheapest meme insult does not quite work.

I'm in fact going to be patient and ignore your shit for the sake of a proper argument, to which I answer: no, Lily being trans does not make me like her more or less. But trans representation is cool and it's nice to have it. That would be it, but you somehow believe that one needs very deep personal connections to appreciate stuff, and particularly to appreciate that fiction represents social minorities in satisfying ways. I obviously liked the episode for other reasons, but this was a nice touch on something that is so often stigmatized in media. Same reason why Hourou Musuko had that "extra" to me. Would this alone make the episode good? Certainly not, but as things stand, it was a nice icing on the cake. And I really don't need a background justification or deep personal or emotional connection.

But I dunno, if you want to feed that logic, one of my Twitter friends and fellow anime fan with very close tastes who has recommended me a lot of great stuff is a trans girl. There you are.


Yeah well.


I'm aware of what subtext and "bait" is. Lily's gender identity is in text. So no, not a good comparison.


No it doesn't remain ambiguous, it's only "ambiguous" because your ridiculous standards to accept that a character is trans transcend the text of the episode. This wouldn't be a controversy if certain side didn't want to make a controversy out of the IDEA of a character being trans, going so far in certain occasions to even deny that Japanese people ever agree or are content with LGBT rep because it's "Western ideas" (yeah, I read that). So please for the sake of intellectual honesty, drop this.

jal90 said:
So, @Jonesy974, do you have a proper response to a video that talks about the actual Japanese text of the episode and its meaning? Or you just decided that it wasn't worth watching it and that I would just bring you something that doesn't point at factual and contrastable evidence?

Your equidistance is kind of bullshit. People being glad that there's a properly represented trans character don't harm anyone, people actively denying that a trans character exists do. It's what happens when a social minority gets rep, they don't usually appear in media, therefore they are at a disadvantage and negating their existence further promotes invisibilization and stigmatization.

If people just accepted the idea that Lily is trans, those in the LGBT community would certainly be enthusiastic, and others including me would say "yeah, this was cool" and move on, but people trying to prove wrong the mere idea of the existence of a trans character pushed the narrative and made this a controversy. Because to grow a controversy you need negativity and confrontation for starters.

And yes, an "official statement" from the creators when it's part of the text in the series is a ridiculous standard. You are asking the creators to confirm something that the show has already confirmed. If you see two characters kissing and having sex you don't need the author to tell you in an interview that they are in a relationship.

And glad that you acknowledge this soon that we are not really going to change either of our stances at this point. I would appreciate if you toned down your edge in this conversation though, because your disrespect is completely uncalled for and I honestly don't know you and don't know if we ever had an argument, and it's weird to see you acting like you hold a deep grudge against me.

Jonesy974 said:


Congratulations. You regurgitated your own quote, completely disregarding the fact that I shot that shit down already since 1. Nothing the troglodytes of MAL presented as "evidence" is actually evidence, and 2. Trying to use evidence to prove a theory of something that's intentionally ambiguous invalidates it.

Again, it doesnt matter who it has support from. A thousand Japanese voice actors can support the theory. It blatantly has support from all of the fetal alcohol syndrome byproducts throwing a fit about it on MAL. Doesn't change the fact that unless its explicitly stated by the creator(s) to be true (which it hasn't) then it's just a un-provable theory.

Please stop. The fact that you're still actually arguing this is embarrassing. If you're still looking to banter about pointless un-provable bullshit I'm sure there are plenty of flat earth forums around.

Walker-Vargas said:


You keep coming back to this argument that you have even less reason to care about.

Dude I literally gave the definition of evidence. In order for an abandon masculine name to not be more likely given trans, it would have to be just as common among cis girl characters. Or to put it more bluntly just as uncommon among trans characters.

Lets but numbers to it. At a guess what are the odds of cis girl character having a super masculine birth name? Now what are the odds for a trans girl. divide the later by the former and to have a score for how strong the evidence is.

While it's true that you aren't asking for a cat evolving into a dog, but the fact that you won't even budge to anything short of "word of God" is pretty creationist.

At any rate i guess there is a small chance that this is all a big miscommunication, but it would be really dumb. Like I'd expect that Crunchyroll would have asked, to avoid problems later. And cruchyroll has a record of misgendering in the opposite direction of this.

Jonesy974 said:


You wanna talk about me "coming back" to this argument after you decide to reply a few days shy of a month from the last time? Holy shit you're dumb.

I think this is like the 4th time now that you've told me you "gave the literal definition" of evidence. Not sure why though, because no matter how many times you've said it, it's never once bolstered your argument, only weakened it.

"In order for an abandon masculine name to not be more likely given trans, it would have to be just as common among cis girl characters. Or to put it more bluntly just as uncommon among trans characters". Uh no. Seeing as how we're discussing a fictional anime character, that ratio has literally zero merit.

Official statement from the creators is now in "word of god" territory now? Yikes, I dont think extreme over exaggerations are doing anything but digging your own hole even deeper.

Goddamn. Maybe take another month off to formulate another argument and try again.

GlowingAura said:
I don’t understand how some people think this is GOOD trans representation, the only thing that was decent was how the others were accepting of her. There was no buildup whatsoever for the reveal, and Lily would’ve been a perfectly good character even without the “oh she was actually born a guy” trope you see all the time in anime. All it does is spark more arguments about the use of pronouns online, and most of the time it’s used as a bullshit character “trait”.