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| even tho I'm supporting Junko-chan I almost cried, the way nanami looked so weak and close to death broke my heart... |
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i don't think this really hit me until hours after the episode aired. one of my first thoughts was that this series is definitely best enjoyed by watching in simulcast order because it was satisfying to watch suspicions about chisa's creepy behavior at the end of last episode be confirmed in mirai-hen. but wow. i have no words. nanami's death was so brutal because there was no hope from the start and every chance or rare moment of reprieve she got was crushed by despair. (komaeda's hopegasm tho) nanami's final words crushed me because in the end she was just a shy girl who broke out of her shell with the help of and because of her classmates and all she wanted was to spend more time with them and to play games with hinata. izuru's tears -> 10/10 reck'd me -- and i really wish i was more coherent right now, but this episode was phenomenally done. we all knew this was coming, but the episode really shined in that it made the predictable still so heart wrenching. also that sakakura munakata confirmation on point. but really, sakakura. betrayal <<< embarrassment/fear over being outed. because if you really love him and would give up the world for him you should be able to give up yourself and your sense of wellbeing. but that internal struggle was intense. poor guy invariably was a catalyst for everything bad. |
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nipponesia said: well that's brutal.... poor Chiaki, despair inducing indeed. Kana did a splendid job imo, can feel every bit of Chiaki's suffering :' so Sakakura is a gay? didn't see that coming tbh, lol just a hunch, but i think he will back in next episode of Mirai-Hen with this, hope i'm wrong :\ no Ryouta this time.... *sigh Sakakura being a gay confirmed was for fanservice. I heard that the first direction was that he had unrequited feelings for Chisa but as they where reading the comments from reddit they realized that they should just go along with the fujoshis' fantasies which was more popular and would make a good plot twist. This also confirms that Munakata knew that he lied about Enoshima and Munakata finally offs him for all his failures from the Enoshima Incident to the Killer Killer Incident and the Future Foundation Killing Game Incident. |
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| oh no. My feels ...they ache. Goes to show how much everyone cares for Chiaki if her death is enough to drive them into despair . Shoddy writing or not I don't care because it serves its purpose. Now I'm a strong believer of hope some a little part of my mind hopes Izuru pulls something out of his many talents and saves Chiaki. I mean he has every talent right surely he could save/resurrect someone from death. But that all relies on him caring. Even though his mind doesn't remember(or to some extent its so deeply locked away that he can't recognize it) It seems his body still draws evidence to his past self what with the crying and what not. Maybe Izuru will recognize that somewhere deep inside he cares for this person and do something. I don't know but there's always hope. Most of us wouldn't mind her being alive again but we might feel played if they do it poorly. If they do decide to do it I can only hope they do it in such a manor that progresses Izuru/hinatas character forward instead of just saying "Im gonna heal you because Im bored" or some shit like that. Also we still haven't really scene Jabberwock in the future arc so maybe things will be explained later there. . But I digress. These are just ramblings of a heart broken hope remnant. I guess I'm falling in despair now to. |
ImaginBreaker said: Huge Danganronpa fan. Played every game and plan to read all the light novels. But I'm sorry this Despair side is trash lol. It's just a torture fest. I'm hoping the last episodes will got into the present to show how they got on the boat to escape Jabberwock because this is getting really stale. There is no need to play this out any longer, okay we saw the second VN cast go despair. Let's move along now. I read next episode is the last one (12th episode is commentary ep or something) so don't get your hopes up. |
"No matter how miserable your life becomes, never let your heart become miserable as well." |
I honestly could say the same about you 1. I stated that I don't dislike brainwashing, I just dislike brainwashing by video. You are still talking as if I dislike the premise of brainwashing as a whole. It's better than brainwashing "by words" (how the fuck would that even work) It would be a more OP power than the video brainwashing 2. You claim that brainwashing by video is more plausible than brainwashing by words. Show me proof of brainwashing by video happening. If you want proof of brainwashing by words, just watch a Hitler speech and watch how the Nazis react. What happened with Nazi isn't the same thing that happened with the UD in the DR world. The Nazi in Germany genuinely thought they were fighitng for the greater good and this is how it works in most cults in gneral they are fighiting for their perception of what good is The UD are different because despair is a negative feeling that causes pain, sadness and helplessness, despair is a bad thing no matter how you look at it. It just so happens that Junko feels pleasure from causing and receiving, there is nothing deep about her ideology, it's not something that she could push into others and make them think that they are working for the greater good which is why she had to force a reaction out of them through the brainwashing What she did with the warriors of hope in AE is more in line with what the Nazi did, she manipulated them to work for a fabricated goal, the construction of a kid utopia, only Monaca knew her true secret 3. Chisa can fight against it because she is an adult and is already knew what was going on behind the scenes. This was never said once. Chisa didn't knew everything that was going on otherwise she would have called for back up It was obvious that she resisted because she had a strong will People who don't have that prior knowledge will be caught unaware and blindsided. Note how most of the Future Foundation leaders are past graduates of Hope's Peak. That is because most of them already knew about the experiments and the dark side of Hope's Peak. If we go by Chisa, most people with a strong will should be able to resist the video if they aren't being forced to watch it Junko's brainwashing is weaker than Mitarai's which is also why she had to use Chiaki's death in the process of making the 77th class despair, so the feelings of despair can be stronger within them 4. I already stated that brainwashing by words involves more than some stupid speech about despair. It requires for Junko to take advantage of their personality, identity, secrets, and sins, and make the person hate themselves, feel inadequatte, and make herself God in their eyes. And that would be enough to completely transform a class of happy students into crazy murderous terrorists that kill for fun? That'd only make sense if most of the class had really heavy psychological problems (which isn't the case), if they weren't friends who supported each other and if Junko had actually a concrete ideology rather than treating despair as something instinctive This actually happens in reality, known as Stockholm Syndrome. Abuse victims will keep clinging to their abusers, even though they should know that it is wrong. Plus studies have shown that this is a real thing. So you think it's believable for Junko to kidnap and entire class and make them simply fall in love with despair? Honestly, that'd be completely unreasonable Some people in that class are weak willed like Mikan but others have a strong will and wouldn't go down without a fight of some kind, a clear example is Nekomaru Also, stop trying to imply that the conversion of the UD is the same thing as the conversion to a RL cult. Being a UD mean the character enjoys causing and receiving despair, it has nothing to do with ideology, it's a pure instictive feeling that couldn't be brought forward with conventional means http://dana.org/Cerebrum/2010/Fear_in_Love__Attachment,_Abuse,_and_the_Developing_Brain/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-craig-malkin/domestic-violence_b_2786921.html Literary nothing alike what happened with the UD in DR If you are going to say something about why am I using abusive relationships and love as a basis, the lore of Danganronpa states that the Ultimate Despair perform acts of Despair to show their love for Junko. Some of them do, like Mikan, others like Komaeda, clearly don't Junko just manages to control their despair because of the love, grudges and hate they feel through it [quote] You accuse me by saying I made that up on the spot. Really? I was being civil, and you come out and accuse me of making crap up. Fine. Let me give you a huge wake-up call: [quote] Yes you did made that on spot, such thing was never hinted in SDR2 or any other DR. "Brainwash by words" is nonsensical trannon1 said: This image is something that was said by Fake Naegi, aka AI Junko, aka the Biggest Liar Since the Tragedy. My man, pay attention to the background, this is the real Naegi XD Junko uses the fake Naegi when the background is all data like and stuff Oh wow, that was embarassing for you trannon1 said: This MightyM16 said: is something simply nonsensical that you invented on the spot to make your point They probably were brainwashed, but get your facts right. They were brainwashed but not by words, because that's something that was never estabilished as something that Junko could do 5. Now that I addressed all your points, you should do me the courtesy of not ignoring 3/4th of what I say, or you can go ahead just lambast me with your opinions. I addressed all of your points as well, happy now? Honestly, it was my pleasure to answer this. Calling you out on your mistake regarding the fake Naegi was hilarious |
ImaginBreaker said: Was looking through the subs and man did they ruin his arc. The whole episode was horrible. Sakakura losing somehow? And the rest is watching Chaki die brutally? Wtf? They fall into despair because of they are forced to watch. What a weak way to see that happen. I was expecting a lot more, the whole point of this anime is to see the Danganronpa 2 cast fall into despair. Yet it's just some shoved in half baked scene, they would rather let us see Chiaki be tortured, let's not focus on the point on the anime. Let's just do torture porn. Do disappointing, easily the worst Danganronpa series. Future side is so good too. I thought we were going to see Junko slowly pull them to her side, one by one. Since that's what the game says happens. Horrible writing Kodaka, I expected better. Just lazy and unnecessary. I agree with what you said about the brainwashing (that's just lazy writing). About Sakakura's defeat... well Junko is the Ultimate Highschool Analyst, |
"No matter how miserable your life becomes, never let your heart become miserable as well." |
| I do understand the argument against brainwashing, since it really is something sort of out of the ordinary and "unrealistic", yet at the same time what did you really expect. This is an anime where literally it is supposed to resemble certain themes and aspects of real life, but not entirely. Otherwise this would be slice of life. Brainwashing is not an opt out for lazy writing, as I've seen some people write. This is my opinion, but I'll expand on that statement. The way I see it is that we've known since SDR2 that the students we all got to know and love, were not who they actually were out of the game. We wondered what could have caused them to turn into psychotic mass murderers and terrorists, what could have triggered this insanity for months hoping that the answer would be provided, and it was: brainwashing. Yet, I wonder what people would have expected to cause the students to act like that. Would simply standing next to Nanami as she is being brutally tortured make them all lose their minds? Would threatening them individually? Giving them an incentive? There has been this motive and theme across the mutual killing games. Yet, this is different. Sure, Junko wants to utilize this group of students to spread despair across the world, yet if you really think about it, incentives and threats are enough to spread some despair, but that is not Junko's goal. Her goal expands across the whole world, which is why she believed her meeting with Ryota to be fateful. Only with brainwashing could she accomplish this goal of creating brainwashed followers who would not only work at achieving her vision faithfully, but until the very end even past her death. If you were looking for a very long segment where Junko individually convinced every student to work with her, it could happen. Junko is smart enough to realize, however, that threatening them and convincing them is not enough for the big vision she has in mind. |
EarlCielSep 17, 2016 8:51 AM
| The only thing good about this episode is indeed... Juzo is confirmed gay. Though there were plenty enough hints pointing to that and not Chisa. It's very despair inducing to watch someone die, even though you know the person would eventually die... They did a good job making the viewers feel despair through this anime... For those that say the brainwashing was stupid, Nanami was their "Hope" , and that b*tch just killed her after torturing her |
| Basically, Torture Episode All Class 77th except Nanami are dumb af Even though Nanami's my favorite character, I didn't cry... I just... Smile at despair in the name of Hope |
Shirobako is AOTY 2015. Deal with it. |
| Another thought: If people think that Junko has played all her cards, and that hope in no way matches up to what she has done (brainwashed the remnants of despair), then you are forgetting that we have two people left that should be able to counter despair: Mitarai & Izuru. Another long post…that idk if anyone will ever read but I need this more than anyone to formulate my thoughts xD. Case Study of Mitarai Ryota Mitarai is person who we are basically waiting to step up and play his role in the future arc. The reason I say this is because we all know how Junko manipulated him, stole his technique that he uses in his anime, and I think he is perhaps capable of reversing the brainwashing effects. In the past, Junko used him to turn against his classmates, and all he could do was run because he was burdened by so much and didn’t know what to do or how to take responsibility. He always wanted to make anime that would make the world a better place, make people smile and hopeful, so it’s with good reason to believe that he was psychologically unstable and tried to place the blame on Junko. I would say he probably was stuck with this mentality, until Junko was gone and his classmates were still brainwashed and under despair. This is where it sort of seems like sort of a tangent, but I think is very related. I think what Munakata said to Naegi was completely true, in that Naegi had an idea of how he really wanted to help the remnants of despair, but his plan was very loosely put together since he didn't really think too much on the "what now?" after they were placed in the game. Sure, the program would provide rehabilitation, but what could it actually accomplish? If they were all brainwashed, then would the Neo World Program have any effect or really help them in the real world? While I think it did help Izuru to understand more of who he really is (which makes sense now because he was never really brainwashed) I can't say the same for the others. There is really no outcome or vision for what happens next, or if there is, no action to make sure the ‘good ending’ is ensured. This is why in the future, they need some means of countering Junko's brainwashing effects, and Mitarai holds this answer, and it’s really strange to think how this final mutual killing game ‘coincidentally’ happened right as Munakata sent ships to try and get the Remnants of Despair all killed. There was some sort of interference by someone, and the killing game, I think, is a sort of distraction to keep everyone’s eyes away from what is actually going on or the actual plan that is bigger than the Future Foundation. Here, in this situation, Mitarai is given a chance to once again prove that he can provide hope for the people close to him. He really only needs to opportunity to shine, and his personality causes him to hesitate and waiver, but it is his genuine wish to fill the world with hope and save people. I think that Ryota really is going to step up and play a key role in the upcoming episodes. I think his key role is possibly some way of reversing the effects of brain-washing with his anime. Case Study of Kamakura Izuru/ Hajime Hinata With Izuru, I justify him being able to counter despair because he never actually really fell into despair. Sure, he does cooperate with Junko, really out of curiosity, and I am by no means saying he is a good person or a hero in his current form. However, this is something I noticed in the scene between Izuru and Nanami: there really is a contrast between how Nanami reacted to Izuru, and how that one person in the student council reacted to Izuru during the mutual killing. Junko of course used Izuru during the mutual killing game in the student council, but at the same time Junko showed Izuru how spontaneous, and irrational despair was. I think that in contrast, the scene in this episode it was the first time Izuru really caught a glimpse of hope, from Nanami. Until the end she struggled and pushed herself to try to help him, and brought back memories with Hinata. It seemed like to me like Hinata is that sliver of hope that rests inside Izuru. His life is unchanging, uninteresting, and so stale that he wants to find some purpose, something interesting to add to his life…yet inside of him rests what he really is looking for. I know that sounds so unnecessarily deep, but if you think about it Izuru was basically all Hinata ever wanted. A physical representation of someone who is so talented, so powerful, and so well admired that he is capable of doing anything in life and achieving. Yet, the irony is that Izuru is in this position but feels like he doesn’t want to do anything because nothing interests him because he is far and above everything in the world. What he really wants, is probably to return to when there was a time when he was able to become whoever he wanted to become. When he was able to pave his own path. IN SDR2, Hinata passionately spoke about how he didn’t know what the future would hold, but that it would be their (the remnants of despair) future. That their future would not be held in the hands of anyone. Izuru’s future was held in the hands of the experimenters, so he resented that and followed Junko. Junko then used him to sort of determine his own future, and he resented that, so he turned himself in. Now, it seems Munakata is trying to give him and his friends divine punishment by executing them on the island, but he not only counters that and fights on the island. Izuru leaves the island because he is trying to pave his own future. It was such a sad scene with Nanami, but I think that even in her death Nanami helped Izuru to begin to notice something inside him, and during SDR2 we saw that at least in the game the impact she had on him was also very enduring + it's about time he...act on it. This 'something' that Nanami offered him I think was more than just the care and love she has for her classmates and Hinata. Of course, there is that, but she offered in some sense something she wanted to be fulfilled, a vision, her hope. I think Izuru saw that in Nanami, and has since been planning a way to sort of fulfill Nanami's dead wishes + bring them to life. Just my opinion. ------ slayerizedcarol said: i was always confused on what the hell izuru's stance was since he willingly participated in the program yet installed junko's ai but that last scene gives it a bit more background?? i'm just assuming like everyone that he did rebel against junko and the real purpose was to bring bring back those memories because nanami obviously impacted him somehow. i can even go far to say that she tapped into previous hinata emotions and showed izuru something more interesting that he hadn't witnessed before. Izuru...is a tricky one. He seems to be the neutral position on the side of despair vs. hope. He never actually really fell into despair, sure he probably killed people but he was never brainwash and only went along with Junko. He's like the 'gray area', the borderline of both sides and sort of the center of a balance scale to see which side reigns victorious, he's playing for the despair side but really his purpose is to observe and see if what Junko implies about despair is true. Since he finds his life so mundane and boring. Izuru, in himself, is a representation of this divide where he is coined the "Ultimate Hope" when in fact his actions are far from supporting hope. He probably has had his share of people that he has murdered. Yet, inside of him lies someone who could fit the description of hope, Hajime Hinata, as we have seen in SDR2. Something I would like to note is that Hinata is actually very different from Naegi since he is quite cynical, and a realist, yet he is still is able to give people hope. When he was in high school, he felt really discouraged by the whole hierarchy of talents and successes in the world, yet in the game he was not burdened so much by those thoughts since the situation changed. He does fill people with hope, even more than Naegi I would argue since he convinced everyone in that last trial that they would determine their own future. When Izuru was on the boat with Komaeda, in their conversation he said "he will not be able to participate in what lies ahead", a reference to the fact that the Neo World Program would revert him back into Hajime. Hinata exists in him on a subconscious level, so he knew about how this program would change him back and Nanami was really who triggered this which is when he started to become aware. So, for me at least, it's strange how he would rip the Junko A.I.s out of her and carry through with her plan. Izuru is even more analytical and critical than Junko who even planned out her A.I...so I think that even before then Izuru had a plan of his own. And I think the future arc is his plan...I'd repeat myself but it's redundant, but I talk more about it in the above post in section about Izuru xD slayerizedcarol said: i was always confused on what the hell izuru's stance was since he willingly participated in the program yet installed junko's ai but that last scene gives it a bit more background?? i'm just assuming like everyone that he did rebel against junko and the real purpose was to bring bring back those memories because nanami obviously impacted him somehow. i can even go far to say that she tapped into previous hinata emotions and showed izuru something more interesting that he hadn't witnessed before. This is true. I remember being freaked out and having my mind blown to know that the people we grew to know and love were actually evil, and I always wondered what would cause them to completely lose it and go berserk. What would drive them to even take Junko's hand and replace it with their own, starve for Junko, even take Junko's...reproductive organs. What causes people to act like this? Andddd it turns out to be brainwashing. I was sort of disappointed too, but it would actually make more sense since I thought it unimaginable for them to go completely insane. Sure they can all have backstories that relate to their upbringing, life, and it would have been more character development but I think this character development was all done in SDR2. They really are, at the core, wonderful people who have been manipulated, which makes the most sense to me. It would have been even more irreversible, I think, if they all had their own reasons for going insane and they had to go down the line and convince every person to become a better person. The purpose would be lost I think, or at least these are just my thoughts on this but I totally understand how you feel. |
EarlCielSep 17, 2016 11:03 AM
| [quote=MightyM16 message=47803981] I honestly could say the same about you 1. I stated that I don't dislike brainwashing, I just dislike brainwashing by video. You are still talking as if I dislike the premise of brainwashing as a whole. It's better than brainwashing "by words" (how the fuck would that even work) It would be a more OP power than the video brainwashing 2. You claim that brainwashing by video is more plausible than brainwashing by words. Show me proof of brainwashing by video happening. If you want proof of brainwashing by words, just watch a Hitler speech and watch how the Nazis react. What happened with Nazi isn't the same thing that happened with the UD in the DR world. The Nazi in Germany genuinely thought they were fighitng for the greater good and this is how it works in most cults in gneral they are fighiting for their perception of what good is The UD are different because despair is a negative feeling that causes pain, sadness and helplessness, despair is a bad thing no matter how you look at it. It just so happens that Junko feels pleasure from causing and receiving, there is nothing deep about her ideology, it's not something that she could push into others and make them think that they are working for the greater good which is why she had to force a reaction out of them through the brainwashing What she did with the warriors of hope in AE is more in line with what the Nazi did, she manipulated them to work for a fabricated goal, the construction of a kid utopia, only Monaca knew her true secret 3. Chisa can fight against it because she is an adult and is already knew what was going on behind the scenes. This was never said once. Chisa didn't knew everything that was going on otherwise she would have called for back up It was obvious that she resisted because she had a strong will People who don't have that prior knowledge will be caught unaware and blindsided. Note how most of the Future Foundation leaders are past graduates of Hope's Peak. That is because most of them already knew about the experiments and the dark side of Hope's Peak. If we go by Chisa, most people with a strong will should be able to resist the video if they aren't being forced to watch it Junko's brainwashing is weaker than Mitarai's which is also why she had to use Chiaki's death in the process of making the 77th class despair, so the feelings of despair can be stronger within them 4. I already stated that brainwashing by words involves more than some stupid speech about despair. It requires for Junko to take advantage of their personality, identity, secrets, and sins, and make the person hate themselves, feel inadequatte, and make herself God in their eyes. And that would be enough to completely transform a class of happy students into crazy murderous terrorists that kill for fun? That'd only make sense if most of the class had really heavy psychological problems (which isn't the case), if they weren't friends who supported each other and if Junko had actually a concrete ideology rather than treating despair as something instinctive This actually happens in reality, known as Stockholm Syndrome. Abuse victims will keep clinging to their abusers, even though they should know that it is wrong. Plus studies have shown that this is a real thing. So you think it's believable for Junko to kidnap and entire class and make them simply fall in love with despair? Honestly, that'd be completely unreasonable Some people in that class are weak willed like Mikan but others have a strong will and wouldn't go down without a fight of some kind, a clear example is Nekomaru Also, stop trying to imply that the conversion of the UD is the same thing as the conversion to a RL cult. Being a UD mean the character enjoys causing and receiving despair, it has nothing to do with ideology, it's a pure instictive feeling that couldn't be brought forward with conventional means http://dana.org/Cerebrum/2010/Fear_in_Love__Attachment,_Abuse,_and_the_Developing_Brain/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-craig-malkin/domestic-violence_b_2786921.html Literary nothing alike what happened with the UD in DR If you are going to say something about why am I using abusive relationships and love as a basis, the lore of Danganronpa states that the Ultimate Despair perform acts of Despair to show their love for Junko. Some of them do, like Mikan, others like Komaeda, clearly don't Junko just manages to control their despair because of the love, grudges and hate they feel through it [quote] You accuse me by saying I made that up on the spot. Really? I was being civil, and you come out and accuse me of making crap up. Fine. Let me give you a huge wake-up call: Yes you did made that on spot, such thing was never hinted in SDR2 or any other DR. "Brainwash by words" is nonsensical trannon1 said: This image is something that was said by Fake Naegi, aka AI Junko, aka the Biggest Liar Since the Tragedy. My man, pay attention to the background, this is the real Naegi XD Junko uses the fake Naegi when the background is all data like and stuff Oh wow, that was embarassing for you They were brainwashed but not by words, because that's something that was never estabilished as something that Junko could do 5. Now that I addressed all your points, you should do me the courtesy of not ignoring 3/4th of what I say, or you can go ahead just lambast me with your opinions. I addressed all of your points as well, happy now? Honestly, it was my pleasure to answer this. Calling you out on your mistake regarding the fake Naegi was hilarious I will apologize on the point of the picture, since I replayed that part, so I acknowledge my mistake on that point. Your point about Nagito not loving Junko is moot, because Nagito cut off his left hand and replaced it with dead Junko's hand. If that isn't love (The Despair Kind) I don't know what is. Then there are those who showed Junko love after her death by starving themselves, implanting her eye in theirs, committing mass genocide, killing their parents. It is clear that UD's actions are inspired by love towards Junko, in which case, abusive relationships do have a connection, since Junko has never treated her UD with any sort of real love (giving them despair instead of love is her way of showing love to them). Your answer towards my explaination of brainwashing by words is only one aspect of it. It is true that I am comparing brainwashing by words to RL cults, but is that really that false? What I mean by brainwashing through words is conditioning. Putting them in a certain situation. Slowly changing their behavior with certain visual cues, certain words. Physically and verbally abusing them till they have lose all sense of self.There are numerous verisons of conditioning, like conditioning someone to have the mindset of a soldier. I would give the example of Cabin Fever, where isolation causes anxiety which eventually can erupt in destructive behavior which normally they would not do. This may be similar to the brainwashing by video in a sense, but it is different and more realistic, because it takes time and effort, nothing like showing people a video and popping out UD's by the dozen. Also, while brainwashing has always been a staple in the Danganronpa universe, it was never mentioned how it happened. You say that I made that up. It's not making it up when I never postulated that brainwashing by words is the truth. I've been saying that it should have been that way, I never said it is that way. You point out that Despair is a horrible feeling that is self-destructive and nothing good can be found in it. My answer to you is that that is Junko's form of Despair. Let me point out that characters have different perspectives towards despair. For example, Komaeda's love towards Despair is ironically based on a hatred towards Despair and a love for Hope. Mikan's Despair stems from a love towards Junko. Then there is Mukuro who only became UD for her love towards Junko and Kamakura who became UD out of pure boredom. So a hatred towards the world, a hatred towards happy people, could also be the despair for some people, like if Kuzuryuu hates the world for taking away his sister. Their love for Junko would be based on an idol or guide sort of love, where she showed them to path to their own Despair. As to whether the Ultimates have psychological problems, I would have to say yes, most of them really do, it's just underlying. For example, Mahiru's friend from the Reserve Course was killed, and it is implied to be Kuzuryuu/Peko's doing. Now, that friend was suspected of killing Kuzuryuu's sister, and even though she denied it and Mahiru believed her, do you think she wouldn't have suspicions as to who killed her friend when Kuzuryuu, aka Ultimate Mobster, had his sister killed by that friend? There were underlying tensions that we never go to see because of the time skip. Ultimate Imposter never had a home nor identity. Teruteru's mother has an illness that has caused her to fall sick and collapse, and their family diner has been targeted by big foos chain industries. Souda has trust issues because his friend in middle school framed him and abandoned him and wasn't able to attend school at times because his father beat him to the point that he couldn't attend. Akane had seven siblings and was poor. She was sexually harassed as a young girl by her mother's lover and customers at her waitress job. Hiyoko Saionji had been harassed since she was young, like putting needles in her shoes, poisoning her food and etc. Gundham has always been introverted and a homophobe, he never attended school events because he hated touching people or being touched. As for Mahiru and the other three girls, here is an excerpt: "While in Hope's Peak Academy, Mahiru befriended Hiyoko Saionji, Mikan Tsumiki, and Ibuki Mioda, and introduced them to Sato. In addition, she had also joined a photography club. During the girls' time together, they discovered a corpse in the music room. The body was later revealed belong to Fuyuhiko's sister, who was murdered by Sato because the girl had been bullying Mahiru. Sato and Mahiru covered up the evidence, and blamed it on a pervert. They kept this a secret from the other girls and told them not to tell the police they had seen the body. A few days later, Sato was killed by Fuyuhiko. Mahiru was later seen crying on the floor. This part of her life was revealed in Monokuma's second motive, "Twilight Syndrome Murder Case"." (This part contradicts the anime, like how it was mentioned that Izuru killed everyone on the Student Council in the first killing game, so I don't know whether it was just pure lies by Junko or continuity issues because the author forgot his own flavor text. Probably both in that the author forgot his flavor text and used Junko as an exucse to cover it up.) It is true that none of these would be an issue normally, but if you put them into a situation, and condition them into Despair, then it would be realistic. They are in high school, meaning it is a delicate moment during puberty for them. That is why conditioning them towards loving herself would make sense. That is why they continued acts of Despair after her death because they wanted to prove their love towards her and some of them may have their own goals outside her Despair. |
trannon1Sep 17, 2016 1:39 PM
| WHY AM I FUCKING WATCHING THIS SERIES RIGHT NOW ?! tbh, this seires live up it's title which is "Zetsubou A.K.A Despair" i mean, well, for the anime only, it probably wouldn't be a despair for some of you, but for the one who already played the game...this episode is completely a despair for us cause we know what will happen. that's the despair. the fact that we knew that Chiaki will die and the fact that we knew that chiaki's classmate will went despair. we knew all of that and still, we kept watching this freaking episode. thus i ask "why am i still watching this freaking series/episode right now ?!" if i were the director, i would made this series into 24 episode series rather than 12 cause it would took more emotional impact when the despair come. yeah, i mean, put the character development between chiaki and all of the classmates and sometimes put a different character development, for instance between nekomaru and akane. just throw those slice of life things into maybe 7 or 6 episode and then start the despair slowly. it would took more impact when the time comes IMO. and there is another reason why i said this episode is despair to us, the one who already played the games, it's because in the game, we have time to hang out with the other characters and know one of them more deep. basically, there are slice of life things too in the game. well, it could be skipped but i doubt everyone who's played it, skipped that. overall thoughts for this episode; probably one of my fav episode cause it executed/ i mean fit very well with all of the pieces either from this series and the game. and obvious, for the most reason, they manage to make the atmosphere full of despair. but that's just me tho...i doubt all of the people who watch this episode feel the despair too but i belive most of the people, especially the one who already played the game, can feel the despair, especially when nanami got stabbed horribly, and in the end, when hinata came in, she was trying to stand up, but she can't and was crying and saying she doesn't want to die yet and said "i don't want to die" tbh, that triggered me so much. this is just fucked up like the title of this series described it. "Despair" and when hinata cried without realizing it... i'm speechless. and btw, the dude with boxing talent. holy shit, where is his pride seriously ? on his ass ? god dang it that one made me angry. on top of that, he is a gay ? lol!!! there are 2 more episode left and i wonder what is the rest of them... looking foward to the next episode!!! "Smiled at despair in the name of home" props to the title of this episode. just an opinion btw. Edit: me i looked up in this thread and there are some people who is argumenting about the brainwashing thing. tbh, i have just one problem with it. it didn't give much impact to me. rather the scene where it was torturing nanami, that one gave a huge hell out of impact to me. i thought junko was gonna forced them to sit and tied them into the chair like what she did with the teacher and then fucking messed up their brains with something shit like what junko's sister did to the teacher. but actually, what happened to the student wasn't that bad compared to what happened to the teacher. if they made it like what junko did to the teacher, and did the same thing to the student, hell yes it would be scary as fuck. i think that was a pretty poor decision. but regardless of that, i still like this episode a lot. most of the reason is because nanami. there are pros and cons in this episode in my perspective. |
YizelTroSep 17, 2016 12:55 PM
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trannon1 said: I will apologize on the point of the picture, since I replayed that part, so I acknowledge my mistake on that point. I see Your point about Nagito not loving Junko is moot, because Nagito cut off his left hand and replaced it with dead Junko's hand. If that isn't love (The Despair Kind) I don't know what is. Then there are those who showed Junko love after her death by starving themselves, implanting her eye in theirs, committing mass genocide, killing their parents. It is clear that UD's actions are inspired by love towards Junko, in which case, abusive relationships do have a connection, since Junko has never treated her UD with any sort of real love (giving them despair instead of love is her way of showing love to them). Nagito both hates and loves her, he wants to kill her but he also wants to cherish her. It's probably how the brainwash managed to affect his mind and how Junko ended up controlling him through it The UD actions are inspired by their love for despair, and since Junko herself is the big ol' despair queen, she can easily control them and reel them in her net Your answer towards my explaination of brainwashing by words is only one aspect of it. It is true that I am comparing brainwashing by words to RL cults, but is that really that false? What I mean by brainwashing through words is conditioning. Putting them in a certain situation. Slowly changing their behavior with certain visual cues, certain words. Physically and verbally abusing them till they have lose all sense of self. "Slowly" - this word is the key Junko is constantly bored with everything, why do you think she would take her time slowly to do something? She'd be bored by the end of the day, it would be OOC for her There are numerous verisons of conditioning, like conditioning someone to have the mindset of a soldier. I would give the example of Cabin Fever, where isolation causes anxiety which eventually can erupt in destructive behavior which normally they would not do. This may be similar to the brainwashing by video in a sense, but it is different and more realistic, because it takes time and effort, nothing like showing people a video and popping out UD's by the dozen. Also, while brainwashing has always been a staple in the Danganronpa universe, it was never mentioned how it happened. You say that I made that up. It's not making it up when I never postulated that brainwashing by words is the truth. I've been saying that it should have been that way, I never said it is that way. That kind of simple conditioning can't lead to the destruction the UD caused, it was clear that Junko had to use something extra to turn a group of happy teens into killing machines who murdered for fun Danganronpa isn't a series centered around realism (just llok at Nagito's talent) so it doesn't needs to worry about that You point out that Despair is a horrible feeling that is self-destructive and nothing good can be found in it. And it is, Junko is the only one naturally crazy enough to find pleasure in it. Not eve her sister or her "boyfriend" (Matsuda) find pleasure in it My answer to you is that that is Junko's form of Despair. Let me point out that characters have different perspectives towards despair. For example, Komaeda's love towards Despair is ironically based on a hatred towards Despair and a love for Hope. Mikan's Despair stems from a love towards Junko. Then there is Mukuro who only became UD for her love towards Junko and Kamakura who became UD out of pure boredom. So a hatred towards the world, a hatred towards happy people, could also be the despair for some people, like if Kuzuryuu hates the world for taking away his sister. Their love for Junko would be based on an idol or guide sort of love, where she showed them to path to their own Despair. People might get pissed off, they might fall into despair but willingly destroying the world and becoming world class terrorists because of it? I found that more unrealistic for DR than brainwashing I saw this post on reddit and it really represents what I wanted to say here: "For the idea of Junko breaking them mentally one by one to work, I think a lot of things would have to be different about the DR2 class. Every character in DR2 would need to have very different backstories. Junko has never been shown to be able to get someone else to commit murder outside the use of a killing game (which puts people in isolated extreme circumstances which forces them into wanting to escape) and brainwashing (besides her sister). The only characters Junko has done this to is the warriors of hope in UDG. Who were children (who already would be much more susceptible to manipulation) and had been emotionally, sexually, and physically abused their entire lives to the point of being suicidal. In my view the whole DR2 class would have had to been much more like that than, for the most part, the healthy, happy, well adjusted, and strong willed characters we meet in DR2. There's simply no way Junko could've turned these people into mass murdering, family killing, terrorists who bring about the end of world just by using some of their very normal flaws and issues." As to whether the Ultimates have psychological problems, I would have to say yes, most of them really do No, they don't dude it's just underlying. For example, Mahiru's friend from the Reserve Course was killed, and it is implied to be Kuzuryuu/Peko's doing. Now, that friend was suspected of killing Kuzuryuu's sister, and even though she denied it and Mahiru believed her, do you think she wouldn't have suspicions as to who killed her friend when Kuzuryuu, aka Ultimate Mobster, had his sister killed by that friend? There were underlying tensions that we never go to see because of the time skip. Of course there were tensions there but as we see that event only worked as (quoting Nagito here) a stepping stone for the class hope. Because Chisa had o go away, Chiaki had to plan several events for the class to cheer up and remain together, I think this effectively ended up helping them bond with each other more Ultimate Imposter never had a home nor identity. I don't think that was a psychological problem for him, he was always a strong willed guy with his own leader type personality [quote] Teruteru's mother has an illness that has caused her to fall sick and collapse, and their family diner has been targeted by big foos chain industries. [/quite] Second part is headcanon, I think. First part is something Junko could exploit to make him fall into despair but then again, making somone fall into despair =/= making someone into UD Souda has trust issues because his friend in middle school framed him and abandoned him and wasn't able to attend school at times because his father beat him to the point that he couldn't attend. I don't remembert these from his FTE tbh Akane had seven siblings and was poor. She was sexually harassed as a young girl by her mother's lover and customers at her waitress job. Akane is just too dense to know what happened there, she never saw it as a problem. She'd literary be too dumb to fall into despair through that Hiyoko Saionji had been harassed since she was young, like putting needles in her shoes, poisoning her food and etc. No, that's not the case with Hiyoko. She had problems because of her family and her father, JUnko could use that to make her despair but I don't see how she could use that to make her become an UD Gundham has always been introverted and a homophobe, he never attended school events because he hated touching people or being touched. ????????????????? Gundham? An introverted and a homophobe? My dude, why are you using your headcanon for these characters? Gundham is just chuuni As for Mahiru and the other three girls, here is an excerpt: "While in Hope's Peak Academy, Mahiru befriended Hiyoko Saionji, Mikan Tsumiki, and Ibuki Mioda, and introduced them to Sato. In addition, she had also joined a photography club. During the girls' time together, they discovered a corpse in the music room. The body was later revealed belong to Fuyuhiko's sister, who was murdered by Sato because the girl had been bullying Mahiru. Sato and Mahiru covered up the evidence, and blamed it on a pervert. They kept this a secret from the other girls and told them not to tell the police they had seen the body. A few days later, Sato was killed by Fuyuhiko. Mahiru was later seen crying on the floor. This part of her life was revealed in Monokuma's second motive, "Twilight Syndrome Murder Case"." (This part contradicts the anime, like how it was mentioned that Izuru killed everyone on the Student Council in the first killing game, so I don't know whether it was just pure lies by Junko or continuity issues because the author forgot his own flavor text. Probably both in that the author forgot his flavor text and used Junko as an exucse to cover it up.) Izuru never killed the student council, that is revealed in DR0 (released before DR2) so what was said in DR2 was a lie by Junko Junko put her own twist and lied about the twilight case as well, for the sole purpose of making the murder happen It is true that none of these would be an issue normally, but if you put them into a situation, and condition them into Despair, then it would be realistic. They are in high school, meaning it is a delicate moment during puberty for them. That is why conditioning them towards loving herself would make sense. That is why they continued acts of Despair after her death because they wanted to prove their love towards her and some of them may have their own goals outside her Despair. The Junko you're painting is OOC. She'd never chose a slow method over a quick and effective one because she gets bored easily She is also not this charisma queen you're painting her as. The conditioning argument is quite weak because conditioned people can be healed through therapy and other means, The UD were terrorists whoe actions were all centered for and towards despair, the NWP was the only way to properly save them |
trannon1 said: I officially just realized how stupid I was trying to argue realism of brainwashing in an anime that has sentient robots, giant dogs, killer cupcakes, and people with red eyes. What the hell am I even thinking anymore? Ultimate Luck, butt fanservice in the tropics, green-glowing aphrosaics? So many red flags and I am still trying to talk about realism. Part of the point I was trying to make, thankfully you managed to see the light nobody199 said: Also I feel people will disagree with me but I didn't care that chiaka died, in fact, she deserve it! Talk about the lack of common sense that these supposed geniuses doesn't have! Didn't she really suspect that her teacher was fine and well, honestly calm, not even worried about her and the others and ,most of all, conviniently found her!? Sorry but I give 2/5 for this episode. They aren't geniuses, they are only actively smart in their field If you played the games, "average guys" like Hinata and Makoto outsmarted these ultimates multiple times. Heck, in the last Future episode, Makoto managed to outsmarted the Ultimate S.C president |
| I cried at the end of episode =/, was so cruel Nanami, OMG, why? |
4Dissinity said: Tevens said: Edit: me i looked up in this thread and there are some people who is argumenting about the brainwashing thing. tbh, i have just one problem with it. it didn't give much impact to me. rather the scene where it was torturing nanami, that one gave a huge hell out of impact to me. i thought junko was gonna forced them to sit and tied them into the chair like what she did with the teacher and then fucking messed up their brains with something shit like what junko's sister did to the teacher. but actually, what happened to the student wasn't that bad compared to what happened to the teacher. if they made it like what junko did to the teacher, and did the same thing to the student, hell yes it would be scary as fuck. i think that was a pretty poor decision. but regardless of that, i still like this episode a lot. most of the reason is because nanami. there are pros and cons in this episode in my perspective. See, regarding that (and this is just what I assume overall), Junko didn't need to do that for the students. They forced the teacher to the chair so that she won't be able to leave before the video started (as Mukuro done in a previous episode by grabbing her before she could do anything to stop a student's suicide in front of her), while Junko just tricked the students into a sealed room to watch the video before they realized it and even got the chance to try to leave or resist. While showing the video, for the teacher, she and Mukuro had to do more to brainwash her by basically hacking her brain, since they just showed her the ordinary despair video. for the students, on top of showing that despair video, they showed Nanami, the biggest hope of the class since she helped bring everyone together, being tortured and killed on top of that, to help show that any type of hope in their eyes is useless and that they will all fall in despair and to completely become part of it, as I assume as a precaution regarding any of them possibly being able to resist like the teacher did. the thing which is bugging me is that, how can they turned into junko's servant just by watching that despair video. if they just became crazy and lost all hope to live, then it still make sense to me. but to turn into an evil person, just a little bit hard for me to accept it. but well, it's a fiction y'know. everything can happen. so i'm okay with it. just a little bit curious with it. |
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EarlCiel said: I think that Ryota really is going to step up and play a key role in the upcoming episodes. I think his key role is possibly some way of reversing the effects of brain-washing with his anime. What he really wants, is probably to return to when there was a time when he was able to become whoever he wanted to become. When he was able to pave his own path. IN SDR2, Hinata passionately spoke about how he didn’t know what the future would hold, but that it would be their (the remnants of despair) future. That their future would not be held in the hands of anyone. Izuru’s future was held in the hands of the experimenters, so he resented that and followed Junko. He's like the 'gray area', the borderline of both sides and sort of the center of a balance scale to see which side reigns victorious, he's playing for the despair side but really his purpose is to observe and see if what Junko implies about despair is true. This 'something' that Nanami offered him I think was more than just the care and love she has for her classmates and Hinata. Of course, there is that, but she offered in some sense something she wanted to be fulfilled, a vision, her hope. I think Izuru saw that in Nanami, and has since been planning a way to sort of fulfill Nanami's dead wishes + bring them to life. Just my opinion. i honestly pity mitarai so much at this point, that kid is broken and needs help. I don't find him as suspicious as i did some episodes ago but for his sake, i really hope he's able to step up and really do something about his skills being used for the worst. I was thinking so hard yesterday, the ending of sdr2 still has impact even with the brainwashing incident because despair kids still must take responsibilities for all the things they did. they had to accept what they had become and move on from it. i think it's even more creepy now because not being in control is seriously a scary thing and knowing you were used and became this zombie like monster is horrifying. even for hinata, he at least willing sacrificed himself to become a whole new person and although he hasn't killed anyone up to this point, he's still junko's accomplice and did nothing to stop the killing of innocent people. so at the end of this whole thing, mitarai probably has the worst burden because without any brainwashing whatsoever, he trusted junko and was naive to just give up something so powerful to the wrong hands. juuzou has committed the same crime by consciously choosing to run/hide out of fear and not stop junko. Anyways, can I thank you for bringing back the reason why i love hinata/izuru so much and also for putting this all into the words i could not form. Everything you said is perfect and i thought about this too, like the irony of what izuru now longs for was hinata all along. that bit about izuru being the gray area is so awesome. i love that because it does seem up to this point he's just been trying to see what junko was all hyped about and if it truly lives up to the hype. i think we can already see his opinion on despair when he was like "um this is boring bye" during chisa's brainwash scene. This quote of becoming whatever you want to become is so important because i feel that it applied to everyone, from DR1 kids to SDR2 kids. this is a huge theme and that's why SDR2's ending had so much impact cuz the ones with the most blood and burden in their hands still had a chance to be reborn and choose the futures that were rightfully theirs. Like i said, no matter what goes on now, i'm really happy for this scene with izuru and nanami. It's not even about like "omg a ship moment!!"but it shows what a great character izuru/hinata is and how important nanami was in this whole thing. I want to believe that this is where izuru had his turning point and planned for bringing nanami's hope to life, for everyone. |
| This was hands down my favorite episode of any anime ever. Sakakura too good and pure for this world. Chiaki too good and pure for this world. The episode was an emotional roller coaster for me even though I knew what would happen. I'm pleasantly surprised that my fujoshi feelings were right this time. I knew Sakakura was in love with Munakata. |
| Oh, Jewell, my poor child, that must be hard ;_; |
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JewellTH said: *Hugs Jewell*Illyricus said: Oh, Jewell, my poor child, that must be hard ;_; It really did.. A part of me died. Don't cry, my dear, I bet she is now in a better place rather than in that filthy world of despair ;_; |
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| No idea what to think of this episode... Enoshima said she perefected her brain-washing techniques, but it was more enjoyable to watch Yukizome with her being tied to a chair and all, than this. This seemed to easy and treated 77th class student's as side characters. Through the whole Zetsubou-hen, mysteries from Mirai-hen and Enoshima were always more in the spotlight than the second game's cast, but I really didn't expect such a lousy job with an important scene as this. Although I expected more and I still can't understand how Kuzuryuu is so cool about his sister's death, when we clearly saw in the daily life of the 2. chapter what a high opinion he has of her and an admiring/protective attitude. But in the end it wasn't unwatchable, it just showed that other stuff are more important than this scene which makes me kind of sad. |
| Noir… It is the name of an ancient fate. Two sisters who watch anime. The peace of the newly born, their black hands protect. |
nobody199 said: trannon1 said: I officially just realized how stupid I was trying to argue realism of brainwashing in an anime that has sentient robots, giant dogs, killer cupcakes, and people with red eyes. What the hell am I even thinking anymore? Ultimate Luck, butt fanservice in the tropics, green-glowing aphrosaics? So many red flags and I am still trying to talk about realism. Hey I don't blame you at all, after all we live in a world where these thing happens. Even if we know that this is fiction, certain things just doesn't conform with the way we see things. However I don't think you are entirely wrong. For sure Danganronpa is crazy as fuck but we actually seen brainwashing by word happening. Isn't what the bear does in the first show? What he calls "motivations" could morally break a person. Perhaps the best example of brainwashing by words I think is the joker. The dark knight shows that by making us see Harvey Dent become the very monster he fought, when he loses his lover, kinda like some white haired psycopath with a laser katana that runs a certain foundation I know. In the first show, the antagonist had to mindwipe his subjects for his motivation tactics to work Tevens said: 4Dissinity said: See, regarding that (and this is just what I assume overall), Junko didn't need to do that for the students. They forced the teacher to the chair so that she won't be able to leave before the video started (as Mukuro done in a previous episode by grabbing her before she could do anything to stop a student's suicide in front of her), while Junko just tricked the students into a sealed room to watch the video before they realized it and even got the chance to try to leave or resist. While showing the video, for the teacher, she and Mukuro had to do more to brainwash her by basically hacking her brain, since they just showed her the ordinary despair video. for the students, on top of showing that despair video, they showed Nanami, the biggest hope of the class since she helped bring everyone together, being tortured and killed on top of that, to help show that any type of hope in their eyes is useless and that they will all fall in despair and to completely become part of it, as I assume as a precaution regarding any of them possibly being able to resist like the teacher did. the thing which is bugging me is that, how can they turned into junko's servant just by watching that despair video. if they just became crazy and lost all hope to live, then it still make sense to me. but to turn into an evil person, just a little bit hard for me to accept it. but well, it's a fiction y'know. everything can happen. so i'm okay with it. just a little bit curious with it. Junko puts Mitarai's special effects on the video to force the viewer to love it's content, this wires the victim brain to love the act of causing and receiving despair Junko then basically controls these people through their despair |
MightyM16Sep 18, 2016 11:30 AM
| Brainwash method didn't quite hit home for me, Yukizome's despair was way more traumatizing and stressful for me. On the other hand though, Nanami's torture... NANAMI'S TORTURE... HOLY F*** NANAMI'S TORTURE... I was legitimately watching this ep, cursing my head off, banging my arms on my chair. When the ED played, I got up, went downstairs to the punching bag and punched for about a minute then came back up and kept rubbing my forehead saying "Oh god why." At this point I'm just so full of hatred and despair that I'm gonna rewatch all of Nichijou just to get a freaking smile on my face again. PS. Those Izuru tears got me hard after Nanami's last words. Just f*** me man. Ugh. |
 "If I don't have to do it, I won't. If I have to do it, I'll make it quick."- Oreki Houtarou |
| @nobody199 So you seem to be a fairly observant watcher, I'll ask you this question that's been bugging me since an ep or two ago. Correct me if I'm wrong but was Chisa made out to be much stronger than she seemed? I mean last ep she got caught so easily by Mukuro and to be honest I was very surprised at that. In fact, I came in expecting her to get caught, but by means of blackmail or holding the students hostage, I never even expected her to physically get grabbed by Mukuro just like that. My reasoning for this is that in the first episode when Chisa goes to gather everyone, first it makes a point of showing how she gets along well with everyone, but specifically with Peko's 'recruitment' scene there's an obvious show of Chisa's skill when she manages to swipe away her sword and attack Teruteru without Peko, the "SHSL Swordsman" even noticing it was gone from her hands. From that I guess I sort of inductively assumed that Chisa was much stronger than she was letting on, possibly more skilled than a natural SHSL, which is why I was so utterly shocked by how easily she was subdued by Mukuro. Thoughts on this? |
| "If I don't have to do it, I won't. If I have to do it, I'll make it quick." - Oreki Houtarou |
4Dissinity said: Nuuuu please answer too, I value your opinions toooooo xDnobody199 said: I don't think it's difficult to notice that there is something strange with Chisa's behavior, hence why I find her not very convencing( I said I), as we saw, Chisa is very energetic, hyper-active, and speaks a higher tone than she was speaking in this episode( and...maybe a little seductive,erotic? I don't know! similiar to Tsumiki when she was brainwashed), but mostly that smile regarding a malicious intent, the narrowed eyes, the assymetrical smile, the invasion of space with physical contact, Chisa was never one to do that. Even the "you can still turn back if you like". Why would she? If Chiaki looks up to her so much why would she have any doubts about turning back, after all they are their friends, one of them possibly is a traitor because it pushed Chiaki, this place is clearly more misterious and complex than they tought they NEED to stick together, to me, it's very obvious. What? While she is usually energetic, she isn't always, especially when taking things seriously, confronting someone, or when comforting someone. It'd be even more suspicious if she didn't act accordingly to the situation to hide how she really is now. She also spoke in the exact same tone as she usually did. One when she takes things seriously (as she did to Chiaki in the last episode) or to ease someone's pain (did in last episode and this episode), and one who is usually in the energetic or cheerful sounding one (did in this episode).And what seduction? lol She never acted that way. I really don't know what you're talking about. No, you're not getting my point at all. She's not saying that little saying as a way for Chiaki to literally have doubt. lol She said that as a way of easing someone by making it seem like that she had a choice on the matter (when really she didn't) and that there isn't anything to feel with doubt by saying something that looks like a fair choice and that it was completely on the matter. This isn't an uncommon method at all. Used all the time in different media. gust11 said: @nobody199 So you seem to be a fairly observant watcher, I'll ask you this question that's been bugging me since an ep or two ago. Not me, despite all the things I've said? ;-; lol Fine. Whatever. |
| "If I don't have to do it, I won't. If I have to do it, I'll make it quick." - Oreki Houtarou |
nobody199 said: Hm, didn't even think about Chisa's game plan. It's interesting to try to think about what exactly was going through Chisa's mind when she decided to chase after her students without even informing Munakata. I mean sure it would have slowed her down but Munakata was already at the school and I don't think a whole lot of time would have been lost. And about the sword stealing scene, honestly I think it's a bit of both. While it did allow for some comic relief, the fact that the anime took time to focus in on Peko suddenly realizing that she didn't have her sword makes me believe that they were intending to play up Chisa's skills and to imply that she was stronger than she let on.gust11 said: @nobody199 So you seem to be a fairly observant watcher, I'll ask you this question that's been bugging me since an ep or two ago. Correct me if I'm wrong but was Chisa made out to be much stronger than she seemed? I mean last ep she got caught so easily by Mukuro and to be honest I was very surprised at that. In fact, I came in expecting her to get caught, but by means of blackmail or holding the students hostage, I never even expected her to physically get grabbed by Mukuro just like that. My reasoning for this is that in the first episode when Chisa goes to gather everyone, first it makes a point of showing how she gets along well with everyone, but specifically with Peko's 'recruitment' scene there's an obvious show of Chisa's skill when she manages to swipe away her sword and attack Teruteru without Peko, the "SHSL Swordsman" even noticing it was gone from her hands. From that I guess I sort of inductively assumed that Chisa was much stronger than she was letting on, possibly more skilled than a natural SHSL, which is why I was so utterly shocked by how easily she was subdued by Mukuro. Thoughts on this? Hahaha thanks! But I guess you are more observant than I because I didn't notice it she had taken peku's sword without her notice until you said now, and that's interesting(this going to be a rather large text). The fact that Chisa went alone without at least trying to call assistance from Munakata or telling where she was going was naive, at least. At first it seemed logical to me that it was just a simple rescue mission and she wasn't going to stay. That's when what you just said hit me hard now: What she was going to do there? Did she think she could solve the problem? and if she did, how? I really tought, baffled, that she was going to act like Naegi and try to use "words to stop violence", but what you said suggests she was ready to fight, I mean why staying if what she just heard from Ruruka was that her students were in danger.She couldn't possibly know that it was related to the persons Munakata said to stay aware of...of course it isn't SHOWN in the anime that this was her reason but it could give an possible explanation for the people that were confused(at least me) as to why she would do such reckless decision. That being said it's pretty confusing from this point because next scene she is already in the chair, Why didn't she put more of a fight like you said? I think she does has the skill.People might say Peku was distracted, but that's some ninja type shit we are seeing here, she was HOLDING the damn sword and didn't feel it was out of her grip for a long second. Other might say it was just for humor purpose but in world where anything can fucking happen you don't what is just a joke or exists in this show's universe. I guess the one thing that sort of changed and makes up (not a whole lot) some of it was that Chisa's rash behavior does in fact reflect some character development (sorta). Imo the fact that she doesn't even think about checking her phone or telling Munakata reflects just how much the class meant to her by this point. I mean at the beginning she was happy, encouraging them and supporting them but overall wasn't actually involved with them. At that starting point she was also constantly shown (or at least shown more often then later on) talking with Munakata by phone. So I guess the fact that in this late half of the series when she doesn't even think about Munakata until she's about to fall into despair reflects just how much her affection for her class has grown and how much they matter to her. Thanks for the input, feel free to continue off of me if you think of anything and if not, thanks for the short but fruitful discussion! |
| "If I don't have to do it, I won't. If I have to do it, I'll make it quick." - Oreki Houtarou |
| So boxer dude is gay? Wow that is a shocker... |
| I got a Masters degree. I don't have to worry bout school anymore. |
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