Nyu said: After seeing multiple threads in Anime Discussion, that were questioning some elements of the Concentration Camps, I thought, lets have an honest discussion about the Concentration Camps. I have heard some people question whether the gas chambers were real, and there is evidence that some Nazis were coerced into false confessions. Is hard to know what exactly went down there because the Nazi's lost and they were the bogeyman of the times so the victor presents events in any way he likes. As they say history is written by the victors. On the other hand i think it will be too much to say the Nazi's did nothing wrong or anything like that. You can find plenty of individuals that will testify to have seen horrible shit from them. Maybe the holocaust was blown up but not without anything there at all or something like that. Who knows. Anyway as the matter of the title i agree with you op that discussion etc should be allowed about everything. It doesn't matter how sensitive anyone is about it. Even if you believe that the claims of doubts of someone over certain historical events are bullshit you shouldn't think that you should be allowed to silence him. That is against the fundamental right of freedom of speech. Just present your case and explain why what that person is saying is bullshit not silencing him by force like the EU and many nations try to do to holocaust deniers. You don't have to agree with them or accept anything they say but throwing them in jail because they dared having a different opinion is absurd. If you do that then you are the fascist. Nyu said: Rarusu_ said: Simply because it's a very taboo subject and still pretty close in time. We can't look at WWII with sober eyes just yet. But I do think concentration camps very much was a reality. My Great Grandfather helped a Polish man who had escaped one of those camps. I think it's fantastically far fetched to believe that somehow CIA sent him to convince my GGF that concentration camps were a thing. The Concentration Camps were real, the thread is about certain elements of the Holocaust though, because at Nuremburg, you had people testifying that peoples skin was being used to make lampshades. Yeah i call bullshit on that. even if they were killing them in mass i doubt they went out of their way to do that. One specific twisted individual doing it to a certain victim maybe but as a general practice. Yeah i don't see it because the Nazis had a lot of logistic issues. |
MonadFeb 21, 2018 2:01 PM
Rarusu_ said: GamerDLM said: 1. It doesn't matter specifically how many millions of people died because it is universally agreed upon that there were indeed millions killed. It doesn't matter if it's 6 million Jewish people or 4 million it doesn't make the Nazi's any less scum. I would say that is something anybody who wants to question the semantics has to make clear or they are no better than an outright denier. It's basically the difference between "I'm interested in the logistics of how this historical event took place" vs. "I just want to make the Nazi's look better by saying 'look they may have been bad but they weren't killing 6 million Jews bad'" It does matter a lot, otherwise you are undermining history as a serious discipline and people will lose trust in it. Of course they should be questioned if they are potentially giving the wrong numbers. But we're talking of an event in which the total is based on estimates due to piecing together what limited documentation and circumstantial evidence survived. In those cases the only way in which it would undermine the total gravity of the event is if the estimates were so skewed that they would basically be worthless. Like just because people are questioning whether one demographic of the holocaust was overstated doesn't make the gravity of the genocide any less noteworthy. Which is why my post was focused on the aspect that people who question it should make clear that they condemn the groups actions regardless of the precise death tally in this specific case. Anybody expecting an extremely specific amount of deaths from an event like that would be better off just becoming a historian so they can spend their life trying to determine the exact amount. |
Nyu said: I deleted my post like right after I made it but here it is since you are mentioning meNthDegree said: It warms my heart seeing this many people unify against holocaust deniers ^^ Half of the people on the thread are questioning certain aspects of the Holocaust. Neane even provided a source showing that most people nowadays believe the Holocaust was exaggerated.  This is from the ADL's website and the Red according to the source is belief that the Holocaust is exaggerated or didn't happen. |
| it seems like te general ideology of mal has changed a lot over the years... why am i even reading this theread at 6 am im so higgh |
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Nyu said: After seeing multiple threads in Anime Discussion, that were questioning some elements of the Concentration Camps, I thought, lets have an honest discussion about the Concentration Camps. I have heard some people question whether the gas chambers were real, and there is evidence that some Nazis were coerced into false confessions. 6 million Jews more or less died there in the end years of the war due to the racial laws in Germany constituting that the lowest race or peoples get the food the last. The Jews were starved to death rather than gassed and it would explain why not so many Germans starved to death (1,5 Million isnt much in comparison to the USSR when it was on the brink of collapse) This theory on paper seems very supportive of the holocaust but its controversial because it implies that Hitler did not have any intentions to genocide the Jewish people.But rather enslave them and sacrifice them if neccesary. This is my take and many other people support it.All the jews being gassed is a meme.Maybe some but for 6 million it would be too costly for the German economy and a waste of potentional forced labour. Dont embarras yourself Nuy again with such a thread.The Holocaust is real and it was Hitlers prerogative to enslave the Jew. The debate really is if the Jews died due to the racial laws or as an order.My arguments heavily favour that of the racial laws that were set up in Germany since 1933 |
DildryFeb 22, 2018 5:41 AM
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HaanFrost said: Nyu said: After seeing multiple threads in Anime Discussion, that were questioning some elements of the Concentration Camps, I thought, lets have an honest discussion about the Concentration Camps. I have heard some people question whether the gas chambers were real, and there is evidence that some Nazis were coerced into false confessions. Churchill killed more Indians than Hitler killed Jews . Churchill a hero while Hitler a villain -_- Churchill is an imperialist pig lmao |
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nicethings said: Oh my god, I am so done. I’m so tired of holocaust denial from the likes of neonazis. It’s delusional to deny the overwhelming amounts of evidence proving its existence. I’ve met people whose families died in that atrocity, it’s the reason why part of my family on my dads side fought in WWII, and my grandfather didn’t want to be forced to take a german class (which was apparently taught by a racist sympathizer). Which is why my dads family changed their surname, to avoid antisemitism. Even if they weren’t directly affected by the holocaust, they felt the pain of the antisemitism before the holocaust even started. It’s not like antisemitism started with the Nazis, but it certainly was emphasized and continues to be perpetuated by nazi sympathizers and racists, and antisemitism is perpetuated to this day. The US used to treat Italians as badly as they treated Jews during the Ellis Island immigration boom, but the hatred against Italians have subsided, however, antisemitism still exists in shocking numbers with US racists. It’s pathetic. Anti Semitism was popular in Europe in the 30's entirely because of Bolshevism. |
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| I see almost no difference between story and history. Both were written by someone, and I can never be 100% sure that the former didn't really happen, and that the latter really happened, no matter how many "evidences" there are. All that history needs is time for it to end up being regarded as a myth. |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
Dildry said: Its always the people who do not know history that keep repeating that statement. You would probably fall for Hitler in the 30s,None of you can even argue how Hitler rose in the first place. Nah I didn't fall for Trump, likely wouldn't fall for Hitler either. |
KRKodama said: There wasn't one, originally: https://www.etymonline.com/word/historyI see almost no difference between story and history. We even use the same Word for both, see https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Geschichte |
| from a non military powered and neutral nation... "victors write the books." most nations that took part in the world war either if it was WW1 or WW2 did something horrible on different scale US dropped nuclear bombs on cities in japan with civilians in them btw. I mean it's all tragic BUT somehow the victor escapes all the blame. |
| “If you believe it to be a sea of bitterness, then a sea of bitterness it is. If you believe it to simply be scenery on the path of life, then scenery it is…. The sea of bitterness never ends, but the scenery does." -Meng Hao |
Noboru said: KRKodama said: There wasn't one, originally: https://www.etymonline.com/word/historyI see almost no difference between story and history. We even use the same Word for both, see https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Geschichte Interesting, thank you for the information! We use the same word for both in Portuguese(my first language) too, that's "história". In Japanese, in the other hand, it's very remarkable, with 物語 for story, and 歴史 for history. German is the very language that I'm learning right now. :) I already knew the word "Geschichte" for history, but I hadn't even stopped to think about the history/story difference in German, to be honest. lol |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
Neane93 said: Nyu said: I deleted my post like right after I made it but here it is since you are mentioning meHalf of the people on the thread are questioning certain aspects of the Holocaust. Neane even provided a source showing that most people nowadays believe the Holocaust was exaggerated. This is from the ADL's website and the Red according to the source is belief that the Holocaust is exaggerated or didn't happen.In other words, the red coincides with information and rigorous debate on any given issue being more readily available. Interesting. |
| I think it's funny how Holocaust denial is simply spun as questioning history. Why isn't any other historical event questioned as much as the Holocaust is? Why and how would millions of people benefit off money made from the "Holocaust Industry"? What good would it be for them to make this up, for no good reason? My family is Russian. Jews aren't the only ones who lost people in the Holocaust. Both our people have suffered huge casualties because of Nazis and their sympathizers. So have homosexuals, gypsies, the disabled, and the genetically 'unfit'. Holocaust denial is essentially spitting in the faces of everyone affected. Screw Nazi sympathizers, screw Holocaust deniers, and screw the nazis who killed my family in Moscow. I hope they burn in hell forever, and I hope the innocent people who were brutally murdered are in heaven right now. |
ExecCuteFeb 23, 2018 12:19 AM
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| History is for the experts not any random person. They did use gas chambers in the Holocaust some of which clearly labelled as such but I haven't seen anything to suggest the Nazis used fake shower rooms that were huge gas chambers. That seemed to be the result of an observational error that was spread around not a lie. HaanFrost said: Nyu said: After seeing multiple threads in Anime Discussion, that were questioning some elements of the Concentration Camps, I thought, lets have an honest discussion about the Concentration Camps. I have heard some people question whether the gas chambers were real, and there is evidence that some Nazis were coerced into false confessions. Churchill killed more Indians than Hitler killed Jews . Churchill a hero while Hitler a villain -_- That's not correct number wise. The Bengal Famine killed about 4 million at most which is less than the numbers Hitler had killed. Jews: up to 6 million Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews) Soviet prisoners of war: around 3 million (including about 50,000 Jewish soldiers) Non-Jewish Polish civilians: around 1.8 million (including between 50,000 and 100,000 members of the Polish elites) Serb civilians (on the territory of Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina): 312,000 People with disabilities living in institutions: up to 250,000 Roma (Gypsies): 196,000–220,000 Jehovah's Witnesses: around 1,900 Repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials: at least 70,000 German political opponents and resistance activists in Axis-occupied territory: undetermined Homosexuals: hundreds, possibly thousands (possibly also counted in part under the 70,000 repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials noted above) https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/mobile/en/article.php?ModuleId=10008193 |
traedFeb 23, 2018 1:04 AM
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Monad said: I call bullshit on you. Our school had a guest speaker, one of the last remaining Holocaust survivors actually. And that's exactly what he described. The Nazis would skin Jews alive because they had a nice tattoo or they liked the color of their skin, and they would make accessories out of the gold teeth and skin. In fact, at the end of the war, many people were in denial just like you, and the allies had to drive German citizens into the camps to witness these things in person to get them to confront the pretense they were living under. Our particular speaker managed to escape from the Nazis with his sister. His sister was caught and killed, and he got lucky and was picked up by rebel freedom fighters.Nyu said: After seeing multiple threads in Anime Discussion, that were questioning some elements of the Concentration Camps, I thought, lets have an honest discussion about the Concentration Camps. I have heard some people question whether the gas chambers were real, and there is evidence that some Nazis were coerced into false confessions. Is hard to know what exactly went down there because the Nazi's lost and they were the bogeyman of the times so the victor presents events in any way he likes. As they say history is written by the victors. On the other hand i think it will be too much to say the Nazi's did nothing wrong or anything like that. You can find plenty of individuals that will testify to have seen horrible shit from them. Maybe the holocaust was blown up but not without anything there at all or something like that. Who knows. Anyway as the matter of the title i agree with you op that discussion etc should be allowed about everything. It doesn't matter how sensitive anyone is about it. Even if you believe that the claims of doubts of someone over certain historical events are bullshit you shouldn't think that you should be allowed to silence him. That is against the fundamental right of freedom of speech. Just present your case and explain why what that person is saying is bullshit not silencing him by force like the EU and many nations try to do to holocaust deniers. You don't have to agree with them or accept anything they say but throwing them in jail because they dared having a different opinion is absurd. If you do that then you are the fascist. Nyu said: The Concentration Camps were real, the thread is about certain elements of the Holocaust though, because at Nuremburg, you had people testifying that peoples skin was being used to make lampshades. Yeah i call bullshit on that. even if they were killing them in mass i doubt they went out of their way to do that. One specific twisted individual doing it to a certain victim maybe but as a general practice. Yeah i don't see it because the Nazis had a lot of logistic issues. |
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