LoomyTheBrew said: Grey-Zone said: Considering the most important aspects about Shirou's "maturity" in ufoUBW have yet to be shown, this poll can only be deemed nonsensical. Haha this is kind of true. This poll should happen at the end of the season so anime only viewers know what they're talking about. It was more for VN readers, since so far ufotable really hasnt expressed shirou correctly anyway. |
| Kiritsugu easy. Glad to see he is leading the poll. |
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Eylandos said: Kiritsugu easy. Glad to see he is leading the poll. Not dis shittu agen >_> |
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Eylandos said: Kiritsugu easy. Glad to see he is leading the poll. The gap should've been a little more big tho. |
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Grapekiwi said: LoomyTheBrew said: Haha this is kind of true. This poll should happen at the end of the season so anime only viewers know what they're talking about. It was more for VN readers, since so far ufotable really hasnt expressed shirou correctly anyway. It's NOT though. If that was your intention, you should have added "SPOILER" in the title and/or the OP. |
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| Honestly the idea of a poll is really dumb. There shouldn't have been one in the first place, because this just turns into a generic popularity contest. |
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GARBrotato said: nocorras said: Yeah as I said it's just a popularity contest.I'd bet that half of Kerry's votes are from non VN readers so it really doesn't matter. UBW Shirou has half an anime. GARBrotato said: Gov said: This poll, like every other poll ever, turned into a popularity contest.I leave for a couple days and the poll is now pretty much tied? Wtf happened? GARBrotato said: i think we get itHonestly the idea of a poll is really dumb. There shouldn't have been one in the first place, because this just turns into a generic popularity contest. |
| BAN ME |
MyNameIsJeff said: Shut up Jeff :pGARBrotato said: Yeah as I said it's just a popularity contest. GARBrotato said: This poll, like every other poll ever, turned into a popularity contest. GARBrotato said: i think we get itHonestly the idea of a poll is really dumb. There shouldn't have been one in the first place, because this just turns into a generic popularity contest. |
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LitzSabr said: I agree. Kerry totally should've chose natalia over NY city. You know, if it had been Detroit or St Louis, I would have been all for just letting the plane go. |
GARBrotato said: MyNameIsJeff said: Shut up Jeff :pi think we get it Just like how we get this adaptation screwed up numerous things but some people insist on repeating that sentiment in a rabidly aggressive manner week after week. Not that I mind though since it makes things lively around here. |
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| they are idealist but kiritsugu is more realistic than the shoolboy shirou |
| Gintama: "The blade is not to cut down your enemies Nor is it to cut away your own weakness A sword isnt meant to protect your body A sword is meant for protecting your soul" |
cronosteso23 said: they are idealist but kiritsugu is more realistic than the shoolboy shirou Yeah, killing the few for the many with no compromise will realistically accomplish things and make people not suffer in the end. |
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Journey_95 said: Hell yes Kerry is winning about time the gap should be much bigger though already ready for the salty VN readers who will say that this poll isn't valid that its not fair that most people don't comprehend Shirou's depth etc. lol You can stop trolling now, you haven't given one argument for Kerry. You're starting to make it too obvious. |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: You can stop trolling now, you haven't given one argument for Kerry. You're starting to make it too obvious. trolling because I like a character more than the other ? try harder Kerry is more mature regarding his ideals why? Because he has what it takes he may not be a typical hero but he is still very relatable (for me at least) He has actual reasons for carrying the ideals and understands that you can't save everyone so he always tried to save the majority (choice at the end of F/Z, him killing Natalia etc.) He is still more of a hero of justice than Shirou ever was Shirou was very comitted to his ideals but the moment a hard choice arrived (killing Sakura or not) he shitted on his ideals and went the easy route hahhaa im not suprised you didnt get his character and kerry took the easy way in the end he realised how shit his ideals was seriously pay more attention before you post bullshit |
xShigarakixApr 12, 2015 11:05 AM
Journey_95 said: nocorras said: You can stop trolling now, you haven't given one argument for Kerry. You're starting to make it too obvious. I thought we were talking about UBW!Shirou. |
Raziel1991Apr 12, 2015 11:05 AM
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Journey_95 said: Yes because that is not what the poll/thread is about.trolling because I like a character more than the other ? Journey_95 said: Nope, the anime never mentioned anything like that. He has actual reasons for carrying these ideals Journey_95 said: And nope, he only truly understood that after F/Z ended, if he really believed in that then he wouldn't have sought the grail. Besides, Shirou is already aware of the same thing anyway so it's not something that makes Kerry 'more' mature than Shirou, if anything they are the same.and understands that you can't save everyone so he always tried to save the majority (choice at the end of F/Z, him killing Natalia etc.) Journey_95 said: Why? How? They both have the same hero complex and they both worked for it and they both got some results. He is still more of a hero of justice than Shirou ever was Journey_95 said: That's like, 1 route out of three, and we're talking about UBW Shirou here not HF Shirou.Shirou was very comitted to his ideals but the moment a hard choice arrived (killing Sakura or not) he shitted on his ideals and went the easy route Very mature indeed |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: You can stop trolling now, you haven't given one argument for Kerry. You're starting to make it too obvious. trolling because I like a character more than the other ? try harder Kerry is more mature regarding his ideals why? Because he has what it takes he may not be a typical hero but he is still very relatable (for me at least) He has actual reasons for carrying these ideals and understands that you can't save everyone so he always tried to save the majority (choice at the end of F/Z, him killing Natalia etc.) He is still more of a hero of justice than Shirou ever was Shirou was very comitted to his ideals but the moment a hard choice arrived (killing Sakura or not) he shitted on his ideals and went the easy route Very mature indeed Kerry literally took the easy route every time he sacrificed the few for the many. Try harder. |
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Journey_95 said: no it was the realistic route Shirou sacrificed the many for Sakura how is that better? So realistic that reality is telling him it won't work the whole time so he relies on a miracle that also tells him it won't work. Never said I agreed with HF Shirou. I'm talking about UBW Shirou. Even Fate Shirou is better than Kerry. |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: So realistic that reality is telling him it won't work the whole time so he relies on a miracle that also tells him it won't work. Never said I agreed with HF Shirou. I'm talking about UBW Shirou. Even Fate Shirou is better than Kerry. And again how are UBW and Fate Shirou better? You seem to forget (quite conveniently) that even though they seem commited to their ideals of saving everyone both never had to make hard choices HF Shirou is the only one who did and he took the easy route out I'm not forgetting anything. This is about who is more idealistically mature. UBW Shirou is obviously more idealistically mature and understands the pitfalls of his ideal. Then we have a man in his 30s going around killing the few for the many while lying to himself only to seek an omnipotent wish seeking device which also smacks him in the face with reality. He never stopped to think for 10 seconds how a ball of mana would accomplish his goal. Great forethought and maturity. 'Miracles are too big for humans' guess who didn't think about this and who did. |
nocorrasApr 12, 2015 11:20 AM
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: I'm not forgetting anything. This is about who is more idealistically mature. UBW Shirou is obviously more idealistically mature and understands the pitfalls of his ideal. Then we have a man in his 30s going around killing the few for the many while lying to himself only to seek an omnipotent wish seeking device which also smacks him in the face with reality. How is UBW Shirou more idealistically mature when he never had to endure any trials regarding his ideal? He just wants to save everyone (like Fate Shirou) and sticks to his ideals BUT unlike Kerry without any hard choices If he had a similiar choice to make like HF Shirou but unlike the latter still remain commited now that would have been more mature (but still not enough since you can't save everyone) As it stands he is (like Fate Shirou but a bit better) just a kid who dreams of some Shounen ideals without any struggle or confronting reality >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. This is maturity. Lying to yourself thinking you can make it better with a miracle is not maturity. He literally confronted the reality of his situation. What are you smoking? Sorry to tell you, Kerry's method can't save everyone either and Shirou acknowledges that not everyone can be saved. Kerry's way saves no one and he was shown this. |
nocorrasApr 12, 2015 11:28 AM
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| Grail would not work either way, it's literally a ball of mana. It's immature to follow a path and lie to yourself the whole time because you don't know a better way. It's mature to follow a path while understanding the pitfalls and that not everything can be saved in reality, but it's still something beautiful to pursue. UBW Shirou is committed to his ideals too. |
nocorrasApr 12, 2015 11:39 AM
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Journey_95 said: How did he lie to himself the whole time? He didn't even know about the grail until he came in contact with the Einzbern family Even before he followed his ideals and was commited to them If he didn't kill Natalia countless innocents may have died UBW Shirou while knowing about the pitfalls still continues to believe that he can save everyone Thats not mature thats childish and how is it something beautiful to pursue? lol I never said killing the few for many in some situations is bad. It's actually the right thing to do in some cases. It takes maturity to see the value of both vs no compromising. Anyway I'm done with this. If you think killing the few for the many while lying to yourself and seeking a miracle to fix it is mature then so be it. |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. >understands the pitfalls of his ideal. This is maturity. Lying to yourself thinking you can make it better with a miracle is not maturity. He literally confronted the reality of his situation. What are you smoking? Yeah he understands the pitfalls of his ideal BUT he still continues to believe it how is that mature? thats just silly Also the Holy grail was corrupted thats why it didn't work as far as I understand it that wasn't always the case And even without the Grail Kerry still remained commited to his ideals (killing Natalia etc.) and saved the many He only knew about the Grail for a few years He is a anti hero sure but more mature than Shirou ever was (UBW and fate Shirou that is) Shirou is more mature than Kerry, just the fact that Shirou acknowledges his ideal as impossible since the beginning proves this. Period |
| Ubw Shirou knows that he can't save everyone but he will try.He knows the fallacies in his ideals but he tries his earnest to accomplish it.If it really comes down to a situation where he has to kill one to save many...he would do that,albeit reluctantly....But before that,he will try to find another way to save that individual.How the heck is UBW Shirou not mature,LOL.The level of ignorance is really high. |
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| Well some people seem to think holding on to the impossible while trudging against reality in denial is mature. Journey_95 said: yep and if you think following some Shounen dream of saving everyone (and in UBW Shirou's case even knowing the pittfalls) without any consequences or hard choices is mature then so be it And of course Kerry saw the value in both Do you think killing Natalia was easy for him? Kerry has a Shounen dream and denies reality with every fiber of his being. Kerry doesn't make hard choices he literally takes the easy way out and doesn't even make any attempt. |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: Grail would not work either way, it's literally a ball of mana. It's immature to follow a path and lie to yourself the whole time because you don't know a better way. It's mature to follow a path while understanding the pitfalls and that not everything can be saved in reality, but it's still something beautiful to pursue. UBW Shirou is committed to his ideals too, you have no evidence to the contrary. And you can't use a logical fallacy to prove your point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance How did he lie to himself the whole time? He didn't even know about the grail until he came in contact with the Einzbern family Even before he followed his ideals and was commited to them If he didn't kill Natalia countless innocents may have died UBW Shirou while knowing about the pitfalls still continues to believe that he can save everyone Thats not mature thats childish and how is it something beautiful to pursue? lol At least Kerry is realistic Shirou is just a crazy child who follows some Shounen dream but never had to prove anything Saving everyone is impossible -Shirou didn't know about the grail either, upon discovering it not even once he thought about using to impose his idelas onto everyone -Kiritsugu automatically chose to destroy the plane, he didn't even look into any other manner. F/Z ending showed how his method is flawed -UBW Shirou knows he can't save everyone, but he will do what he can to follow such an ideal because it's a beautiful one. However he knows he can't do it and he won't dictate his entire life to it -Kerry is not realistic, he thought he could use a miracle to make his ideals come true when he didn't even had an idea on how to do it out of his flawed method of "saving people" |
Journey_95 said: chat77 said: Ubw Shirou knows that he can't save everyone but he will try.He knows the fallacies in his ideals but he tries his earnest to accomplish it.If it really comes down to a situation where he has to kill one to save many...he would do that,albeit reluctantly....But before that,he will try to find another way to save that individual.How the heck is UBW Shirou not mature,LOL.The level of ignorance is really high. How do you know he would do that? There is no evidence for that Thats the problem with UBW Shirou (and with Fate Shirou to a larger extent) they spout these childish dreams but are never confronted with hard choices and reality Its easy to just declare some nice dreams and ideals but to actually follow them? Thats harder Kerry is mature and a hero of justice (anti hero) UBW and Fate Shirou are just kiddies (fate Shirou especially) HF Shirou is mature but no hero of justice anymore You do know that there is a civil war at the end of UBW for dismantling the grail? |
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| You don't even get the point. UBW Shirou killing the few for the many in a situation that requires it in the end does not make him immature. UBW Shirou knows his ideal is impossible so straying from it to save the maximum number is not immature. Kerry spends his whole life literally getting slapped in the face by reality and not accomplishing his goal. Then he seeks a miracle to accomplish his goal and it slaps him in the face. |
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| Post Fate/UBW there is a magus Civil War over dismantling the GHG. Pretty easy to figure out which side Shirou would be on and trust me I doubt this situation entails saving everyone. |
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Journey_95 said: chat77 said: You do know that there is a civil war at the end of UBW for dismantling the grail? civil war? Yes |
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MightyM16 said: -Shirou didn't know about the grail either, upon discovering it not even once he thought about using to impose his idelas onto everyone -Kiritsugu automatically chose to destroy the plane, he didn't even look into any other manner. F/Z ending showed how his method is flawed. -UBW Shirou knows he can't save everyone, but he will do what he can to follow such an ideal because it's a beautiful one. However he knows he can't do it and he won't dictate his entire life to it -Kerry is not realistic, he thought he could use a miracle to make his ideals come true when he didn't even had an idea on how to do it out of his flawed method of "saving people" -I wouldn't say kerry wanted to go infinite tsukuyomi on everyone and ofc he didn't know how to do it with his methods, but that is the reason to look for a miracle which by rule should be able to do anything. His methods are flawed if you put them under the conditons and scale the grail offered, which he himself obviously wasn't looking for. -There weren't really any other options during the plane incident. |
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Journey_95 said: nocorras said: Post Fate/UBW there is a magus Civil War over dismantling the GHG. Pretty easy to figure out which side Shirou would be on and trust me I doubt this situation entails saving everyone. Well that would be interesting If he would actually follow his ideals (and sees that he can't save everyone) even in difficult situations like that that would be mature But we sadly don't see any of that in UBW thats why I can't take him seriously Why does he have to see everyone can't be saved? He knows this already. Are you saying he's immature if he sees not everyone can be saved and still tries and fails? Or are you saying he's immature if he kills the few for many? Or is it that he's immature if he walks away from the conflict? (which is unlikely imo) |
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LitzSabr said: MightyM16 said: -Shirou didn't know about the grail either, upon discovering it not even once he thought about using to impose his idelas onto everyone -Kiritsugu automatically chose to destroy the plane, he didn't even look into any other manner. F/Z ending showed how his method is flawed. -UBW Shirou knows he can't save everyone, but he will do what he can to follow such an ideal because it's a beautiful one. However he knows he can't do it and he won't dictate his entire life to it -Kerry is not realistic, he thought he could use a miracle to make his ideals come true when he didn't even had an idea on how to do it out of his flawed method of "saving people" -I wouldn't say kerry wanted to go infinite tsukuyomi on everyone and ofc he didn't know how to do it with his methods, but that is the reason to look for a miracle which by rule should be able to do anything. His methods are flawed if you put them under the conditons and scale the grail offered, which he himself obviously wasn't looking for. -There weren't really any other options during the plane incident. --Yet Shirou acknowledged his ideal as impossible already and didn't even thought about using the grail for it to come true --His methods are flawed because he uses them absolutely everytime --Maybe, but you will never know until you try. Kerry alwasy choses the easy way out Journey_95 said: So he would kill the few to save the many? How is that a beautiful ideal ? this is just some Fairytale nonsense Kerry is mature and a hero of justice (anti hero) UBW and Fate Shirou are just kiddies (fate Shirou especially) HF Shirou is mature but no hero of justice anymore [/quote] --If the situation really called for it, however I doubt he would kill few to save the many everytime like Kerry did -"Saving everyone" is a beautiful but fantastical idea, but its impossible. UBW Shirou is proud of this ideal and he will follow it to his maximun capabilities, however he knows that as this ideal is impossible, it won't be the sole drive of his life Fate Shirou supposedly followed this ideal and was shot down by it's impossibilty multiple times however he never regretted it like Archer did, and the fact he acknowledged it as impossible already makes him more mature than Kiritsugu ever was. He never gave up on this ideal because for him , after the events of Fate route, this ideal didn't became only just something he inherited from Kiritsugu but was his last remaining conection with Saber as well. |
| Also I like how everyone praises Kerry for 'crapping' on Saber in the battlefield speech but they completely ignore her retort which shuts him down. She realizes his way of doing things only gives rise to new conflicts (which the grail shows him) and realizes he wanted to be a hero when he was younger. He scowls and says he'll break the endless cycle, wooooo |
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Journey_95 said: Well that would be interesting If he would actually follow his ideals (and sees that he can't save everyone) even in difficult situations like that that would be mature But we sadly don't see any of that in UBW thats why I can't take him seriously " sees that he can't save everyone" He already knew this since the prologue LMAO |
MightyM16 said: Journey_95 said: Well that would be interesting If he would actually follow his ideals (and sees that he can't save everyone) even in difficult situations like that that would be mature But we sadly don't see any of that in UBW thats why I can't take him seriously " sees that he can't save everyone" He already knew this since the prologue LMAO I've tried to explain this to him, I really don't know what his argument is at this point which is why I asked what he finds immature, is it 1)if Shirou decides to run from the conflict. 2)Kill the few for the many. 3) Try and save everyone but fail. Those are his 3 options, what makes him immature out of that since he already realizes his ideal is impossible. It has to be his actions after that would make him immature in Journey's eyes because it's already established that he knows his ideal is impossible. |
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