GARBrotato said: Both want an ideal world where no one suffers. That's their ideal, and it only makes sense that they both have the same one since Shirou took it from Kiritsugu. Kerry's methods aren't his ideal; it's just how he goes about trying to achieve said ideal. And the only reason his ideal is 'twisted' is because of what happened to his island. Ah okay. I was referring to the application then, though I still feel how you apply the ideal, is relevant to it, and kinda makes them different. tsudecimo said: I haven't done that though, for example. Pretty sure there are a lot others too. And I don't mean to defend the people who bash Kerry, but from what I've seen online so far quite a bit of the love and hate Kerry and Shirou get respectively a lot of it is dumb buzzwords that miss the point of both characters and the franchise they are from, so I can see where they are coming from. Admittedly though most of these people never got to see all 3 version of Shirou properly but eh. Still doesn't make the bashing valid, as it just a fallacy, and doesn't support Shirou's character or their arguments, quite the opposite. |
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tsudecimo said: And tbh, if the only way Shirou fans/priests or w/e, can defend his character is by vapidly bashing Kerry by the same bullshit one liner assumptions on why people like him, then that shows how biased they are. They are literally two examples of this happening in this page alone. So I can't be blamed, when I take everything they say about Shirou with a grain of salt. It shouldn't related with Fate zero only bashing Shirou based solely in the way he was portrayed in the deen-fan fiction or comparing a completely adapted character with a 1/3 done, it must nothing to do with that, sure. |
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tsudecimo said: I know that, and I agree; though I was more referring to what you said about generalizing why people like Kiritsugu.Still doesn't make the bashing valid, as it just a fallacy, and doesn't support Shirou's character or their arguments, quite the opposite. I mean, I like him myself and everything. Also regarding the ideal, Shirou is also willing to kill if it means it would save people, it's just his last resort whereas with Kiritsugu it's the first thing he does (again, mainly because of their different experiences in the past. The disaster that Kerry lived through could have been prevented if he killed someone, while Shirou's wasn't etc). |
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iravuseiba said: HF Shirou is the only sane Emiya. So you would sacrifice anyone else, or even yourself, for your loved ones, even if saving them is impossible barring ridiculous circumstances, like losing an arm while your heroic spirit from the "future" gets almost killed and someone is willing to attach his arm to your body and that somehow transfers all his knowledge and skills to you? You like to take chances, I guess. |
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Lollo36 said: Pretty sure the dude was joking...iravuseiba said: HF Shirou is the only sane Emiya. The only sane Shirou is UBW Shirou. |
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GARBrotato said: Also regarding the ideal, Shirou is also willing to kill if it means it would save people, it's just his last resort whereas with Kiritsugu it's the first thing he does (again, mainly because of their different experiences in the past. The disaster that Kerry lived through could have been prevented if he killed someone, while Shirou's wasn't etc). Fair enough. Though what did you mean this: ''Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal'' Sure the hero of justice is more deeply rooted to Shirou's backstory because of Kerry's burden, and fire, etc. But Kerry also has a reason, considering what happened to him in his childhood. |
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GARBrotato said: There's only one asspull in UBW and that's |
| BAN ME |
MyNameIsJeff said: GARBrotato said: There's only one asspull in UBW and that's |
| Reaction Channels for Fate/Stay Night UBW (TV) first season second season |
tsudecimo said: GARBrotato said: Also regarding the ideal, Shirou is also willing to kill if it means it would save people, it's just his last resort whereas with Kiritsugu it's the first thing he does (again, mainly because of their different experiences in the past. The disaster that Kerry lived through could have been prevented if he killed someone, while Shirou's wasn't etc). Fair enough. Though what did you mean this: ''Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal'' Sure the hero of justice is more deeply rooted to Shirou's backstory because of Kerry's burden, and fire, etc. But Kerry also has a reason, considering what happened to him in his childhood. He already wanted to be a hero before the island incident iirc. They island incident just shaped him into a few for the many machine. |
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| are we talking abotu shirou as a whole? or comparing each different shirou to kiritsugu? going with shirou. Kiritsugu was realistic in his methods but his ideals is what lead him to the conclusion that he could end world conflict by using a magic wish granting device. a magic wish granting device that is supposedly omnipotent but has never once shown proof of such things in a world were magic itself requires proof. what kiritsugu was trying to do is no different from what Zoukin was trying to do. If kerry was so mature then he shouldnt have had to take a mudbath in all the worlds evil just to stop his nonsense. as far as deeds go the only real difference between the two is that kerry had a gun put in his hand while shirou didnt. |
supracseduch said: Seriously, people think "Kiritsugu is so immature because he wants to let a dangerous miracle-granting device to end human suffering and bring world peace, despite not having any idea how to do it." Look, a miracle is a miracle and the grail was supposed to grant such wishes. If you wish for a bag of potato chips from a genie, you shouldn't be required to know the details of how a bag of potato chips is manufactured in the assembly line. He acknowledges that it would take a miracle in order to fulfill his ideals, and guess what, there's a grail that can supposedly grant just that. As far as he's concerned, this is the perfect opportunity. And no, he did NOT know that the grail was corrupted. Some people seem to forget this. I didn't say it was corrupted. I said it was dangerous. Because it should be common sense that a mysterious wish-granting device with the power to change the world won't be as simple as it sounds - and even if it is, the very act of having a wish granted is itself dangerous. Even if the Holy Grail wasn't corrupted, how was his vague wish going to be granted? Kiritsugu himself didn't know, so my guess is that evil thoughts would've been wiped out from everyone's minds and the world would become a mindless utopia. Or perhaps something even worse. The very fact that he was trying to change reality to satisfy his own wish is itself a sign of childishness. He couldn't cope with the reality of people suffering, so he turned to a wish-granting device to solve it. Sure, it's dramatic and touching, but is it good? Is it mature? Not really. tsudecimo said: He doesn't have better abilities, his abilities aren't good by themselves, trace on is very lame, and so is the borrowed dual swords. Accel spells, and Kerry's guns, are not only 'cooler', but are used more creatively. Shirou's ideal, is so generic, it hurts. It's too naive and idealistic. Kerry's ideal were interesting, not just because it's uncommon to see them in a protagonist or a main character, but also because his twisted sense of justice was compelling, how he kept on suffering, and doing bad things for the sake of greater good. Being pragmatic is a lot more interesting, than a pure hero, with an extra dose of idealism. Do you mind if I point towards the title? Who is more idealistically mature - Shirou or Kiritsugu? This thread is NOT a popularity contest. This thread is NOT a matter of 'which character is more interesting than the other'. This thread is NOT meant to be 'which is better, F/Z or F/SN'. Who gives a crap about who has the cooler abilities, the more interesting background, the darker actions and the deeper story? So what, maybe Fate/Zero is waaaay more interesting than Fate/stay night, and somewhere, majority opinion dictates that Shirou can't hold a candle to Kiritsugu, whose cold, pragmatic actions put him above everyone else. That may be true, but so what? We're talking about whose beliefs are more mature here. Whose beliefs are more developed in terms of idealism.. Whose beliefs would work better in the real world. Whose beliefs are not only practical but healthy. Maybe Shirou is more childish than Kiritsugu, maybe he's less interesting, but his beliefs are without a doubt more mature, in any adaptation of Unlimited Blade Works. He's fully aware of and has accepted the flaws in his own idealism. He's not running away from anything. Even before the Holy Grail War, he dedicated his whole life to helping others, being a doormat, trying his best to please those around him. And after UBW, he'll start being a lot more active regarding that ideal, saving people, both with his powers and by thinking it through each and every time to find the best solution, whilst cherishing his own life. That's really all that needs to be said here regarding Shirou. Is it boring? Yeah. But does that make it childish? Maybe a bit, not anywhere near as childish as Kiritsugu's. After all, on the other hand, Kiritsugu spent his whole life tracking down and assassinating criminals, even taking down hundreds of innocents and his own surrogate mother with them if it meant that even more people could be saved. It's DARK and it's COOL. We get that, okay? But is it mature? A guy like that, who shoved his emotions away to travel the world and kill as many bad guys as he could, all just because he couldn't get over what happened with lolShirley... He doesn't even try to save the people he kills. He never negotiates, he never sends them to jail, he'll kill them every time so they don't pose a further risk, and this is something he'd been for decades without stopping to question himself, no, being too afraid of reality to question himself. You call that mature? ... Again, this thread is not a popularity contest. Personally, I also believe that Kiritsugu's a lot more awesome than Shirou in many ways, but here, it's not a matter of awesomeness but a matter of whose ideals are more mature. MATURE ma·ture /məˈCHo͝or,məˈto͝or/adjective fully developed; full-grown. All I'm really trying to say is, you're arguing about the wrong thing, dude. Cooler character =/= more mature character |
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tsudecimo said: Well, if you remember, Shirley asked him what he wants to be and he answers "I want to be a hero." The thing is we never get a reason why, and this is before the incident in the island. It's kind of a shame that they didn't bother elaborating on that more. You could say he was just being a naive kid but why he never grew out of it is never fully explained, if at all. Maybe there's something in the side materials about it, but I haven't read that so idk. Too bad CapsuleCore doesn't log on MAL anymore to quote any relevant info about this :|GARBrotato said: Also regarding the ideal, Shirou is also willing to kill if it means it would save people, it's just his last resort whereas with Kiritsugu it's the first thing he does (again, mainly because of their different experiences in the past. The disaster that Kerry lived through could have been prevented if he killed someone, while Shirou's wasn't etc). Fair enough. Though what did you mean this: ''Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal'' Sure the hero of justice is more deeply rooted to Shirou's backstory because of Kerry's burden, and fire, etc. But Kerry also has a reason, considering what happened to him in his childhood. |
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MyNameIsJeff said: GARBrotato said: There's only one asspull in UBW and that's Dead. End of argument. (and that's just the first volley) |
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GARBrotato said: kiritsugu basically falls into the same template as Gun God....there probably wasnt a real reason for it before except lol he's a kid then the tragedy happened and natalia put a gun in his hand which sent him on his way.tsudecimo said: Well, if you remember, Shirley asked him what he wants to be and he answers "I want to be a hero." The thing is we never get a reason why, and this is before the incident in the island. It's kind of a shame that they didn't bother elaborating on that more. You could say he was just being a naive kid but why he never grew out of it is never fully explained, if at all. Maybe there's something in the side materials about it, but I haven't read that so idk. Too bad CapsuleCore doesn't log on MAL anymore to quote any relevant info about this :|Fair enough. Though what did you mean this: ''Except unlike Kiritsugu, Shirou actually has a reason to have this ideal'' Sure the hero of justice is more deeply rooted to Shirou's backstory because of Kerry's burden, and fire, etc. But Kerry also has a reason, considering what happened to him in his childhood. |
CarenPriest said: Do you mind if I point towards the title? Do you mind if post the definition of the word context, since you clearly don't know what it means? con·text ˈkäntekst/ noun the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed. "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending" synonyms: circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning. "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear |
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CarenPriest said: I haven't finished reading this post but let me just quickly point out that I was the one who mentioned the cool powers thing.Tl;dr wall of text |
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Lollo36 said: MyNameIsJeff said: Dead. End of argument. (and that's just the first volley) |
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CookingPriest said: [spoiler]even if it didLollo36 said: Dead. End of argument. (and that's just the first volley) wiki said: Capable of remaining in this world for two days without an established contract. Also capable of living on for a short period of time after suffering extensive damage on his spiritual core. |
| BAN ME |
CookingPriest said: Lollo36 said: Dead. End of argument. (and that's just the first volley) That entire thing is really dubious tbh |
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GARBrotato said: tsudecimo said: Shirou is already miles better than Kiritsugu though.Kiritsgu. Any comparison between the two, only make Shirou even worse than he already is. Seriously; character, development, ideals, abilities, and even fights (Kerry had only 1 fight so meh), AND he actually has a reason to want to be a hero aside from it being a simple kid's wish. Also he doesn't fuck himself over well he does in some bad ends but that's besides the point. Shirou >>>>>>>> Kiritsugu. Actually if you read the LNs there is a very good reason Kiritsugu wants to be a hero of justice. |
Lollo36 said: For the record I don't mind that asspull because epilogue ftw.MyNameIsJeff said: Dead. End of argument. (and that's just the first volley) |
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CookingPriest said: Wasn't that a retcon?Lollo36 said: Dead. End of argument. (and that's just the first volley) But again not that I really care, it was done for a good cause. Caliburn220 said: Well I've been looking for that but every time I bring it up none of the mean LN readers explain it. Short version please, if you don't mind.GARBrotato said: Shirou is already miles better than Kiritsugu though. Seriously; character, development, ideals, abilities, and even fights (Kerry had only 1 fight so meh), AND he actually has a reason to want to be a hero aside from it being a simple kid's wish. Also he doesn't fuck himself over well he does in some bad ends but that's besides the point. Shirou >>>>>>>> Kiritsugu. Actually if you read the LNs there is a very good reason Kiritsugu wants to be a hero of justice. |
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CarenPriest said: And after UBW, he'll start being a lot more active regarding that ideal, saving people, both with his powers and by thinking it through each and every time to find the best solution, whilst cherishing his own life. This is my biggest problem in this entire thread. Kerry completely changes his lifestyle after realizing what an idiot he was, but he gets judged only based on what he did before. Shirou barely starts changing towards a healthy version of his ideal at the end of UBW, but that makes him automatically more mature. |
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MyNameIsJeff said: CookingPriest said: [spoiler]even if it didwiki said: Capable of remaining in this world for two days without an established contract. Also capable of living on for a short period of time after suffering extensive damage on his spiritual core. SIDE MATERIAL RETCON FTW |
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Lollo36 said: and shirou is a shitty character because he didn't "9 bullet revolver" her ay through everything? how is attempting to use a device to impose your ideals and wishes on the entire world considered mature? that is the shit that villains in this story have attempted....CarenPriest said: And after UBW, he'll start being a lot more active regarding that ideal, saving people, both with his powers and by thinking it through each and every time to find the best solution, whilst cherishing his own life. This is my biggest problem in this entire thread. Kerry completely changes his lifestyle after realizing what an idiot he was, but he gets judged only based on what he did before. Shirou barely starts changing towards a healthy version of his ideal at the end of UBW, but that makes him automatically more mature. |
| Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. |
ShrimperorApr 8, 2015 12:43 PM
Lollo36 said: I think that's more because what people praise about Kiritsugu most is his pre-fire version.CarenPriest said: And after UBW, he'll start being a lot more active regarding that ideal, saving people, both with his powers and by thinking it through each and every time to find the best solution, whilst cherishing his own life. This is my biggest problem in this entire thread. Kerry completely changes his lifestyle after realizing what an idiot he was, but he gets judged only based on what he did before. Shirou barely starts changing towards a healthy version of his ideal at the end of UBW, but that makes him automatically more mature. |
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| apparently Shirou because deconstruction |
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Shrimperor said: woa woa now...shirly was turned into one of the dead..that shit wasnt his fault kiritsugu's father was responsible at that point we're back to the heaven's feel argument about sakura. if someone you love is causing an atrocity would you be able to pull the trigger? this is what kerry did. he made the hard decision there.Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. |
Maloghurst said: Shrimperor said: woa woa now...shirly was turned into one of the dead..that shit wasnt his fault kiritsugu's father was responsible at that point we're back to the heaven's feel argument about sakura. if someone you love is causing an atrocity would you be able to pull the trigger? this is what kerry did. he made the hard decision there.Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. Wait wait, i am not blaming Kerry for the incident. I am just saying that what happened on the island deeply affected him. |
Shrimperor said: well yes the big theing with this whole shirou and kiritsugu thing is that kiritsugu knew what had caused the atrocity in his past and was given a means to do something about it. he then continues with this goal and ideal of his because of his tragedy and never changed until it was too late. for shirou this HGW was a chance for him to prevent another ifre from happening and by the end of it he's come to terms with himself. Shirou wanted an outcome were everyone can be happy but he wasnt gonna use some so called "omnipotent wish granting device" to do it he wanted to fight for this knowing that it's an unrealistic goal but still a thing worth believing in.Maloghurst said: woa woa now...shirly was turned into one of the dead..that shit wasnt his fault kiritsugu's father was responsible at that point we're back to the heaven's feel argument about sakura. if someone you love is causing an atrocity would you be able to pull the trigger? this is what kerry did. he made the hard decision there. Wait wait, i am not blaming Kerry for the incident. I am just saying that what happened on the island deeply affected him. |
Shrimperor said: Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. Emm no You also forgot that UBW Shirou ACCEPTS not being able to fulfill the ideal sometimes as a valid situation accepting it as a part of reality That alone means he will NOT turn out like kerry because he knows when to stop and look back in a situation He is not saving everybody He is living by an idea that implies you should try to and finding happiness in the beauty of such ideal |
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tsudecimo said: Do you mind if post the definition of the word context, since you clearly don't know what it means? con·text ˈkäntekst/ noun the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed. "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending" synonyms: circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning. "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear *sigh* Okay, maybe I put it too harshly, but I don't quite get what you're trying to say here. Thus, I'll assume that you thought I didn't read the whole post just because I didn't quote it all, and now I will: tsudecimo said: There is just nothing that Shirou is better at than Kerry so far. He doesn't have better abilities, his abilities aren't good by themselves, trace on is very lame, and so is the borrowed dual swords. Accel spells, and Kerry's guns, are not only 'cooler', but are used more creatively. Shirou's ideal, is so generic, it hurts. It's too naive and idealistic. Kerry's ideal were interesting, not just because it's uncommon to see them in a protagonist or a main character, but also because his twisted sense of justice was compelling, how he kept on suffering, and doing bad things for the sake of greater good. Being pragmatic is a lot more interesting, than a pure hero, with an extra dose of idealism. Shirou didn't develop so far, but I doubt whatever development he might have will, be anything noteworthy an early guess I don't really use fights, to judge characters, but ehh, Shirou unsurprisingly falls flat here as well. Granted, that I only watched half the story of UBW, you and the other priests description of him, is also not better than Kerry, though I'm sure, that most of it is exaggeration and fanboyism and a case of overintrepreting, and the anime Shirou wouldn't be like it. Your whole point was that 'Shirou's character falls flat' and that 'there is nothing Shirou is better than Kerry at', but you failed to explain why he is not better, because for all your talk of Shirou, you did not bring up one legitimate comparison nor talk about Kiritsugu. And even though you brought up 'context', when I kept saying 'interesting', I was really just using your words for it. I have to bring this up as well: tsudecimo said: GARBrotato said: Shirou is already miles better than Kiritsugu though. That's an objectively wrong statement, and a quite disgusting one at that. Objectively wrong statement? While what Brotato said might've been a bit of an exaggeration, since when were opinions between characters objectively wrong? Or worse, disgusting. Really, Tsudecimo? Really? This is the context that I witnessed and considered, along with the rest of the thread, before I made my post. I don't mind you liking Kiritsugu over Shirou, and I don't mind if you believe Kiritsugu's ideals are more mature than Shirou's. I get that you understand about F/Z too, and I'm sure that you're one of those who came into F/SN expecting F/Z, only to be severely disappointed. It's simply that the bias against the character of Shirou himself, outright ignoring his mindset due to the fact that it's 'less interesting', is something that's a bit annoying. Juuuussstttt a little bit. Yes, we priests like to say that he could've been portrayed better, but that doesn't mean what he is isn't already up there - the main gist of his character is all there. Another thing that bugs is the fact that instead of a reply, you just countered my posting of the definition 'mature' (which was to expand upon the fact that Kiritsugu is considered as a boy in a man's body, as stated by even Urobochi and Nasu themselves) with a posting of the definition 'context'. Seriously, dude? All I'm trying to say is - the interestingness of a character DOES NOT equate the maturity of a character in reality. I will admit, since only UBW's first cour has aired thus far, it's probably harder for me to argue my point right now~ Without being able to go into detail, I can't state exactly why, to me at least, his ideal is more mature than Kiritsugu's. If you can understand what I've been trying to say thus far, without bias or generalization, then that's probably enough for now~ Sorry for bothering you so much~ ^^; |
CarenPriestessApr 8, 2015 1:15 PM
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CookingPriest said: Shrimperor said: Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. Emm no You also forgot that UBW Shirou ACCEPTS not being able to fulfill the ideal sometimes as a valid situation accepting it as a part of reality That alone means he will NOT turn out like kerry because he knows when to stop and look back in a situation He is not saving everybody He is living by an idea that implies you should try to and finding happiness in the beauty of such ideal Hum, When did Shrimp say or imply that Shirou literally saves everybody? He knows he can't do it, but the fact that he finds happiness in following this ideal still means he's following it, i.e. he decides to save everybody, regardless of whether or not that works out. Seems like you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing even though you actually totally agree with what was said...? |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
GangstaPriest said: CookingPriest said: Emm no You also forgot that UBW Shirou ACCEPTS not being able to fulfill the ideal sometimes as a valid situation accepting it as a part of reality That alone means he will NOT turn out like kerry because he knows when to stop and look back in a situation He is not saving everybody He is living by an idea that implies you should try to and finding happiness in the beauty of such ideal Hum, When did Shrimp say or imply that Shirou literally saves everybody? He knows he can't do it, but the fact that he finds happiness in following this ideal still means he's following it, i.e. he decides to save everybody, regardless of whether or not that works out. Seems like you're disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing even though you actually totally agree with what was said...? Following the ideal =/= Trying to make the ideal a reality. |
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Shrimperor said: Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. I still only see comparisons between end-of-route Shirou and mid-of-FZ Kerry. And it pisses me off to no end. Maloghurst said: Lollo36 said: and shirou is a shitty character because he didn't "9 bullet revolver" her ay through everything? how is attempting to use a device to impose your ideals and wishes on the entire world considered mature? that is the shit that villains in this story have attempted....This is my biggest problem in this entire thread. Kerry completely changes his lifestyle after realizing what an idiot he was, but he gets judged only based on what he did before. Shirou barely starts changing towards a healthy version of his ideal at the end of UBW, but that makes him automatically more mature. I called Kerry an idiot for what he was trying to do, and I never said that Shirou is a shitty character, I was just pointing out what I wrote up here. |
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Lollo36 said: Shrimperor said: Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. I still only see comparisons between end-of-route Shirou and mid-of-FZ Kerry. And it pisses me off to no end. I said What could happen with Shirou in my post. He could turn out better, but he could also turn out worse. |
Shrimperor said: Lollo36 said: I still only see comparisons between end-of-route Shirou and mid-of-FZ Kerry. And it pisses me off to no end. I said What could happen with Shirou in my post. He could turn out better, but he could also turn out worse. That's fate shirou, not UBW Shirou |
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| putting the poll anywhere, immature fsn fans would come and vote shirou for no reason whatsoever they rather have the irrational ideals rather than more achievable ones CookingPriest said: GARBrotato said: Somewhere like Beast's Lair you mean? Beasts Lair will have 0 votes and would derail into shit in five seconds. Also full of secondaries. secondaries doesn't mean shit, ive seen this word more in this sub forum more than anything else stop being so upset that the anime has adapted the visual novel so well that people could openly see your idol; shirou, being ripped to shreds |
| What would UBW Shirou do if Rin was put in a similar situation to HF Sakura? |
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Lollo36 said: Shrimperor said: Kerry is an Idiot who sacrificed those close to him. He had his reasons (Shirley and all), still doesn't make it right. UBW Shirou is a better Idiot who decides to save everybody, even tough he knows he can't do it (''Sorry Saber, i can't save you''), however he will try, which, depending on his decions in Life later, could lead to self distruction, and maybe, a Fate worse then Kerry (very small chance, can still happen). Also, mark the thread as Spoilers guys. I still only see comparisons between end-of-route Shirou and mid-of-FZ Kerry. And it pisses me off to no end. The thing is, Kiritsugu's relentless pursue to make his ideal a reality in the end completely broke him. Basically, post-4HGW Kiritsugu is a shell of his old self as he lost everything, and curse of Angra Mainyu has slowly drained his life. When he changed his lifestyle, he didn't have long time to live and only peace he attained in that period are Shirou and Taiga. UBW Shirou, on the other hand, not only didn't lose everything (he lost few people he couldn't save), he exited the 5HGW way stronger, both in body, abilities and mindset. As Fai said, he will still live by the ideal but won't relentlessly try to make it a reality like Kiritsugu did. |
astroprogs said: If HF ended up being a single movie, what would it need to do so it can get a high score from all of you? Not air. |
Lollo36 said: What would UBW Shirou do if Rin was put in a similar situation to HF Sakura? We just had a discussion like this somewhere else. Rin vs. 100 People, no other Choice. Shirou knows he can't save everybody, and he has to choose. He Chooses Rin -> Bye bye Ideal. He chooses 100 People -> Hello Archer. Both can happen, we won't know what he will choose. Some might argue he will choose Rin, but that means he abandons his ideal. |
Aurioch said: he will still live by the ideal but won't relentlessly try to make it a reality like Kiritsugu did. You don't know that for sure,tho |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: Aurioch said: he will still live by the ideal but won't relentlessly try to make it a reality like Kiritsugu did. You don't know that for sure,tho we do tho. All monologues make it clear. Kerry treated ideal as goal. UBW SHirou treats it as way of life. Shrimperor said: Lollo36 said: What would UBW Shirou do if Rin was put in a similar situation to HF Sakura? We just had a discussion like this somewhere else. Rin vs. 100 People, no other Choice. Shirou knows he can't save everybody, and he has to choose. He Chooses Rin -> Bye bye Ideal. He chooses 100 People -> Hello Archer. Both can happen, we won't know what he will choose. Some might argue he will choose Rin, but that means he abandons his ideal. He would chose both and try to save both. It is better to try and fail than to chose and give up. You know why? Because UBW Shirou realizes that there's more than one answer to any solution and that nothing is a dichotomy. |
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DamnThatsTheSpot said: But don't you know that Fai-kun is actually an extension of Nasu's brain and therefore knows everything past and present about the whole franchise?Aurioch said: he will still live by the ideal but won't relentlessly try to make it a reality like Kiritsugu did. You don't know that for sure,tho Sarcasm aside, it's true that there is no 100% chance Shirou won't ever turn out for the worse. Cause no one knows what the future holds. |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
Aurioch said: Lollo36 said: I still only see comparisons between end-of-route Shirou and mid-of-FZ Kerry. And it pisses me off to no end. The thing is, Kiritsugu's relentless pursue to make his ideal a reality in the end completely broke him. Basically, post-4HGW Kiritsugu is a shell of his old self as he lost everything, and curse of Angra Mainyu has slowly drained his life. When he changed his lifestyle, he didn't have long time to live and only peace he attained in that period are Shirou and Taiga. UBW Shirou, on the other hand, not only didn't lose everything (he lost few people he couldn't save), he exited the 5HGW way stronger, both in body, abilities and mindset. As Fai said, he will still live by the ideal but won't relentlessly try to make it a reality like Kiritsugu did. Of course. It still doesn't explain why someone would compare Kiritsugu's way of pursuing his ideal, which was framed as wrong by his own show, to Shirou's lifestyle at the end of the story when he's already fully developed. It would make more sense to compare the two based on their flawed ways of living at the start of their stories, or based on the conclusions they reach at the end. |
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we do tho. The very fact that Nasu said that albeit small,there is still a chance of Shirou becoming Archer after every route shows you don't,m8 |
CookingPriest said: He would chose both and try to save both. It is better to try and fail than to chose and give up. You know why? Because UBW Shirou realizes that there's more than one answer to any solution and that nothing is a dichotomy. and then everybody dies. UBW Shirou KNOWS he can't save everybody, and if put in a situation where he has to choose, he will choose. He will try to save everybody, but as a last resort he will choose somebody. Who he will choose? we don't know. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: we do tho. The very fact that Nasu said that albeit small,there is still a chance of Shirou becoming Archer after every route shows you don't,m8 It is close to zero. so it is non-existent. Fate has biggest chance but others do not. Shrimperor said: CookingPriest said: He would chose both and try to save both. It is better to try and fail than to chose and give up. You know why? Because UBW Shirou realizes that there's more than one answer to any solution and that nothing is a dichotomy. and then everybody dies. UBW Shirou KNOWS he can't save everybody, and if put in a situation where he has to choose, he will choose. He will try to save everybody, but as a last resort he will choose somebody. Who he will choose? we don't know. It won't matter and won't affect his perception of the world or ideals because he made peace with idea that there will be failures. That's why UBW Shirou is most mature. |
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CookingPriest said: DamnThatsTheSpot said: The very fact that Nasu said that albeit small,there is still a chance of Shirou becoming Archer after every route shows you don't,m8 It is close to zero. so it is non-existent. Fate has biggest chance but others do not. Close to zero =/= zero tho??? |
| Proud founder of The Official Anti-Ging Freecss Fan Club Join now! Kellhus said: GuusWayne said: there is a limit to the suspension of disbelief And it's the fan that did it. Not the smoking porn reading rubik cube genius rape ape with a magic boat. |
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