Tsumayouji said: I'm gonna bust out some Joseph Campbell on you people:
So according to story writing theory, "good stories" require conflict and a "character arc." A "character arc" requires growth, aka the character changes in some way, either mentally, emotionally, or physically (usually all three).
Joseph Campbell was a big-time mythology nerd who studied myths the world over and came up with a formula for the one myth - known as the "Hero's Journey," which most all of Hollywood has used as a guideline for creating good cinema since. While the Hero's Journey is not a necessity for creating a good story, nordoes adhering to it always lead to one (some great films break from this), it was the first template for categorizing and discussing what enduring stories were and why. And it underscored the notion that you need a character to change in some way to be engaging.
So the "problem" with most "strong" male protagonists is that they have no character arc, no growth. They don't change emotionally or mentally. They're just super strong. And the lack of change means they're typically found to be inherently uninteresting.
You can get away with this if they aren't the main character. Take Alucard from Hellsing. While he is a core character, Seras and even Integra are more of the main characters, and they do go through their own arcs that change them. Guts is a strong dude, but we see him transform into who he is.
Rambo undergoes a HUGE character arc. The movie isn't about how much of a badass he is, but how he struggles with PTSD. The struggle being the key.
But Ichigo has many character arcs and i still dislike him.
Tsumayouji said: I'm gonna bust out some Joseph Campbell on you people:
So according to story writing theory, "good stories" require conflict and a "character arc." A "character arc" requires growth, aka the character changes in some way, either mentally, emotionally, or physically (usually all three).
Joseph Campbell was a big-time mythology nerd who studied myths the world over and came up with a formula for the one myth - known as the "Hero's Journey," which most all of Hollywood has used as a guideline for creating good cinema since. While the Hero's Journey is not a necessity for creating a good story, nordoes adhering to it always lead to one (some great films break from this), it was the first template for categorizing and discussing what enduring stories were and why. And it underscored the notion that you need a character to change in some way to be engaging.
So the "problem" with most "strong" male protagonists is that they have no character arc, no growth. They don't change emotionally or mentally. They're just super strong. And the lack of change means they're typically found to be inherently uninteresting.
You can get away with this if they aren't the main character. Take Alucard from Hellsing. While he is a core character, Seras and even Integra are more of the main characters, and they do go through their own arcs that change them. Guts is a strong dude, but we see him transform into who he is.
Rambo undergoes a HUGE character arc. The movie isn't about how much of a badass he is, but how he struggles with PTSD. The struggle being the key.
But Ichigo has many character arcs and i still dislike him.
Haha, well even if you have a character with character arcs, doesn't guarantee he's likable. Likability is another matter entirely. ;)
My point though is that many "strong" male protagonists don't change. And it's pretty hard to have anyone get behind an MC who doesn't change at all (not impossible, but highly unlikely).
I like watching strong protagonists, male or female. It's just when I think they're ridiculously overpowered, that's when it becomes boring and unchallenging. This is the reason why I don't bother watching Bleach anymore.
Sapewloth said: Another issue I had was his inconsistency : claiming to play solo at the end of the first ep and spending the next eps helping a random loli and joining a guild.
That was just an act he put on to direct everyone's hate towards him. He never intended to go solo at the time. If he had not done that, the others would still be looking for the rest of the beta testers left in the party and would feel great animosity towards each other. It was only after he joined a guild and failed to protect them that he decided to go solo from then on, so that such a thing would not happen again. He was using Silica to lure out a criminal he was looking for, and planned to leave her once he had found her and revived Pina.
Sapewloth said: Saying to Lizbeth she helped him realize he prefers dying than surviving alone and next ep... he's alone slashing mobs. I just couldn't follow this dude.
He's not heartless. Remember, the reason he decided to go solo in the first place was to avoid having other people die because of him, and Lizbeth would have died in front of his eyes if not for him. Makes sense. He also needed her to make his second sword, and planned to leave her afterwards. I think I could "follow this dude" just fine.
Sapewloth said: Strangely, he's getting more or less very comfortable with all the girls he meets but when it comes down to Klein, who was like the first guy he talked to, he remains pretty distant. Why ?
Klein declined to go with Kirito in the beginning because he needed to find his friends. Most if not all of their encounters after that were after Kirito's old guild died and he decided to go solo. Kirito was distant from everyone from that point on, and only partied up with the girls when he needed them to get something, leaving them shortly after.
Sapewloth said: His romance with Asuna could have been a great opportunity for chara dvpment also (him realizing he can rely on others, or some shit like that), but it just doesn't show in his actions : he still continued to plow through his ennemies on his own, because there's no need to rely on others when you alone are worth an entire army.
He constantly relies on others. He joined the biggest raid group there is because he knows he cannot beat the bosses alone, just like in a real MMO. Though he often manages to deal the finishing blow, he's not the only one fighting. And lets not forget when Asuna had to save him from nearly dying. He was crying and everything, relying not only on her physically, but mentally too.
I like Natsu Dragneel, Vash, Spike Spiegel, Gene Starwind, Brandon Heat, etc. They're all strong male main characters but at th esame time each one of them has a flaw.
Alucard is on my favorites list and he's insanely OP. So no, I don't dislike strong male protagonists as long as they've got some interesting qualities/flaws/etc.
I like the strong male protagonist's , what's wrong with them ? They cand be as strong as they can possible be if it goes well with the story line...My favorites are the one's who are a little stronger than he's friends but kinda weeker than the enemy so they cand rise over them.
Y'know about Kirito.. he really did have character development..
btw SPOILER!!! (This is the best i can do, from here on out everything is spoiled)
I mean he started of as a shut-in who ignored family to pursue MMO's and the like. When people were hating on him for being a Beta tester, he decided to assume the "Bad guy" role to protect any other beta testers. He decides to get in with a guild but doesn't reveal his true Level because he doesn't want them to turn away from him. (his level is Beater worthy i assume)
He then sees his whole guild die, even though he has been telling the suicidal girl that he wont let her die. Then guild master suicides right in front of him after finding out he his a Beater. He pretty much goes into depression at this time, especially after the Christmas event trolled him. Of course the timed voice-mail he got does help with his emotions. He still couldn't trust himself in a party or guild though. Probably had less than 10 friends on his list too.
It took Developing a love interest AND awakening to a very potent cure for isolation and wanting-to-be-a sad-loner Syndrome (i'm taking about Paternal instinct) to not only drag him out of his bad time but make him into a better person that he was going into this game. Now i know that emotions for someone in an MMO sounds about as serious and deep as LuckyStar, but you have to factor in that
A) this was serious because could die for real if they died here.. in an mmo... where everything is out to kill them (Even the other players)
K) The people alive at the end, for the most part, accept that this was a harsh reality that they needed to overcome if they wanted to beat the game.
B) They also mentioned that over time, people started to forget about real life a little, including the main characters. this obviously means that they weren't thinking over this virtual world in even more of a realistic state.
48)This game operates on Full immersion and control. You can use all your senses fully and naturally there and the world is design to feel as realistic as it could. You can express almost (if not) all of your thought and feeling to anyone in the game just like you would in real life. also, the mirror that the GM gave out at the beginning made it so that (for the most part) no one could pretend to be something they aren't by looks. (some proof to this is that Kirito was able to retain some of his swordsman skills from the game to use Irl at the beginning of the 2nd arc) remember the kendo fight.
as for him being overpowered w/o explanation. i don't agree mainly because of how all of his power seems possible for him, in his state.
first i would like to address a comment here about how the Beta mode was flawed because it allowed players to see all of the game. it isn't true or provable because Kirito (He self proclaimed beater w/ no life at the time) only got to Floor 40 (or 4, I can't remember) when this game has 100 floors. there is no way that Kayaba would allow some1 to see the ending floor too (because he is the boss)
Next i would like to talk about how Kirito got his power. becoming a grand shut-in starting at a young age, he probably started gaming then. He probably gain much more confidence in any game than he would have had Irl. being in this state he definitely would make sure he would get his hands on a beta mode of the first Full immersion game and set. being in a very comfortable setting, he probably was able to pick-up on key things quickly like how to use skills and things of that nature (oh and before i forget he also mentioned that this game has attack patterns build in for him to use if he wants) He has also demonstrated in the show that he is a smart character like when he figured out everything about the Mystery PK's.
He also has shown that his knowledge from other MMO's could help him progress through this game, even in Beta. (He demonstrated that by showing how much HP regeneration helps in fights, not even needing to land a hit to end the enemies's attempt at PKing) So he should be able to learn about the world in beta mode, like Mission layouts and things of that nature.
Not to say that he was the ONLY good one in beta mode. (Kirito said that most of the other beta testers were lame to cover for them.) He may have had help in exploration and Floor clearing, no matter how small. which would explain how he got so far in Beta.
at the beginning, while everyone was panicking, he decided to move on his feet and reasoned that it is best to get to the other town because the first town will be sucked dry of any ability to farm exp. (By this he means that all the thousands of people will try to grind there... not a good idea) He also explains that missions can run out too. so not everyone can get them. Since Kirito is taking the lead, he has a good chance at leveling well because most people take their time at the first world to get used to the game (Especially since they don't want to risk fighting stronger foes when they know nothing about the game). Kirito isn't going as crazy because he already has knowledge of the world and games are his zone.
Because of is knowledge, and skill from beta, he is able to located the best quest and grinding areas. He is also able to deal with monsters a few more levels higher than what other people would choose. Also, this isn't your point and click/Lobby n' waiting MMO. this was a free roam, full immersion MMO that you could die from. Everyone who did choose a party from the beginning probably did so to ensure they wouldn't die. Of course this also means they wouldn't try for the harder quests and shy away from the tougher enemies. People who went it alone had a better chance of dying BUT also weren't as afraid as the people who were in parties. the solo players probably took on the tougher stuff in hopes that the strength they gain will keep them from dying and allow them to end the game. It isn't that hard to think that a Solo player would be able to gain more levels faster than a Party, especially when the solo player knows the terrain. (Even Asuna was a solo player back then and she did halve the work when defeating the floor 1 Boss)
As for why Kirito has a skill that no one else has. He was a beta tester, so Kayaba probably took notes on his experiences in the testing phase. By the time Kirito got the dual blades skill, he was already known for being a skilled solo wolf who was also a Beater. Kayaba probably took a liking to this person who was able to make a name for himself in the world he made so Kayaba probably just gave it to Kirito as a congratulation gift. I mean he is the GM so he could do want he wants. (he was the only one to have an avatar COMPLETELY different from his IRL body)
Now to talk about how Kirito isn't an overpowered gary stu. First of all, he said that having high enough numbers in a game your virtually invincible (episode 4 i think) and that's what it is. it's just the game mechanics at work. I know i have over-leveled w/o even trying before. Add the thought of me need to level to not just survive but beat the world that could kill me at any time to my thoughts and you best believe i will make sure i am more than 10 levels stronger than the floor i am on. Kirito though, he had the knowledge of the world he was in and was an experienced MMO player.
Now still he wasn't the Gary-sue because he just didn't win enough by himself.
1) Asuna did half the work in the first dungeon.
2) Even though he was a higher level, he still couldn't stop most of his guild from dying in a dungeon just 1 or a few more levels than what they usually do.
3)even though he isn't in a party for most of the floor fights, there are alot of other Parties around him, so he isn't just soloing these floors either. Plus, Heathcliff's HP was the one that everyone was saying never went below zero. So Kirito was probably losing health just like the others for the most part.
4) Remember the traitor of the "The Kinghts of The Blood"? if it wasn't for Asuna, Kirito would be dead. Asuna also gave Kirito enough time to ware out the Parahacks(He was already wondering why it didn't wear off yet, showing that it usually wears off around that time)
5) His adopted child had to save him from that boss-like monster.(causing Yui the child to disappear for an unknown amount of time) Usually a gary stu would handle that.
6)He does lose to Heachcliff. While Heachcliff did hack in his defense he is a GM. Most GM's aren't that good that their game.
7)He does technically lose against Heathcliff for the second time. but ill use this to get into the next topic of why people think he is a Gary Stu. his hit after death. It's understandable that people would not be able to move when there HP is gone, but throughout this show they have shown that people can move and even talk after there HP reaches zero. Diavel, for example, was able to give that speech and chat with Kirito. he was even able to stop Kirito from using the Hp potion. many, (if not all) of the important characters would died were able to do something after there hp reached zero. even Griselda was able to stick to SAO after death (a discussion of another time). Also, the sword Kirito used to stab Heathcliff wasn't heavy at all. It was asuna's rapier, made to be light so she can deal multiple blows at a time. he was also using both of his hands and his strength stats should give him the strength to impale Heathcliff. (So, i guess, Asuna did halve the work too.)
The reason why Asuna and Kirito get to live is probably because it's gift from Kayaba. i they did clear the game and Kayaba must have know about how Kirito loves Asuna (She did sacrifice herself for Kirito in-front of Heathcliff) so he probably threw that in as well... plus it is her sword.
and again, Kayaba can do what he wants.
(i'm sorry if my grammar makes anything hard to understand or read, i tend to make mistakes like that)
also i read up to page 7 so if any1 has already typed something like this, i'm sorry for wasting your time.
Mod Note: Spoiler tag added to summary of SAO series.
also no, i don't dislike every strong male leads just because they are strong male leads. i do dislike VERY douche attitudes in a male protagonist though.
It takes more than a protagonist being strong for me to dislike him. I generally like strong protagonists. One that comes to mind is Tatsuya Shiba. He is clearly a Gary Stu in my opinion, but I don't care. I think he is a Gary Stu done right, and he is executed perfectly. Someone like Kirito I don't like that much. Not because he is OP and strong, but simply because I don't like his character. There are many others, it just depends on peoples' taste I guess.
I have complete opposite complex. I enjoy power progression as much as the next person but i'd prefer to see the main character be over powered to hell and abuse it than be an idiot who can't seem to learn from his mistakes.
People usually only dislike strong MCs because they use their strength to easily win fights and pretty much annihilate their opponents, which isn't very thrilling.
Honestly I don't have anything against a powerful male protagonist as long as he has a "cool" personality.
But I'd like to see an anime based around a strong female protagonist more often.
I only dislike them if they're too flawless and/or have no personality. A character that boring an inhuman is really hard for me to get invested in. Being just simply powerful isn't enough for me, I have to like the character in the first place!
I dont dislike them as long as they are charismatic,Alucard and Claire Stanfield for example might be Gary Stues but you cant deny that their scenes are the highlights of their series.
I call bulshit. We get like ten "Looking for anime with strong/badass/overpowered mc" threads per day in the anime & manga recommendations subforum to the point that you'd think people just watch anime for escapism or self insertion. There's no way in hell you can tell me people don't love strrong mc, maybe the extreme minority.
Anyway, the strength of the character doesn't matter. How well he's written and how that strength (or lack thereof) is used in the story is where it's at.
Yoshii Kiria took over as leader of Fairytale and rebuilt it and became one of Tsukunes formidable enemies but let's save that story for another time
Hehe, let me introduce him to you again, kid. This is Shuzen Issa (who is MIA during the final battle), who will become your 'trainer' starting today. You still have much to go if you want to become the headmaster.