KentoBento said: If one group is too stubborn to do it, you should at least try so no harm comes to you instead of making a fuss, y'know? Simpler and safer like that. It's like those christian bigots that publicly burn qurans or insult muslims in some other way and then don't care that people are dieing in muslim riots over the world as the effect of their actions. Yeah, it's the muslim bigots that actually kill those people, but that doesn't mean that the one who instigated this whole chain of events in the first place doesn't bear some responsibility as he could have prevented it by simply keeping his opinion to himself and NOT offending every single muslim on the whole world for the simple sake of attention whoring. TLDR: If you think that your actions may lead to people dieing, stop them. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: For the 3278237328 time, it's about warning people who have not been raped yet to be cautious, not about blaming victims. As someone said before, a lot of people go with the attitude through life that "lol this can't happen to me" and thus take unnecessary risks. It seems to me, you are the one who actually doesn't care for the victims as you're suggesting that we just let them blindly run into their doom without properly warning them of abstaining from dangerous behavior. And I'm sorry that you got raped, but this doesn't prove anything, so I don't know why you even mention it. Then for the billionth time, if this is not about blaming rape victims, WHY is the entire topic based around "absolving rape victims of all responsibilities" (or rather, being against that). I don't know if you realize this, but they are not rape victims until AFTER they have been raped. You know that, right? So if this thread is meant to prevent rape, focus on the ones who haven't been raped yet. By focusing on rape VICTIMS, you ARE focusing on the ones who have already been through it, NOT the ones who have never been through it. I don't want your pity, I don't need anyone to feel bad for me. What I've gone through is long gone, I want people to understand the impact their words have on those who currently find themselves in that hard situation. These suggestions have an extreme psychological backlash, not to mention they are nothing new. Or would you like someone who has never been raped to tell you how these things the thought process of a rape victim? No one BUT a rape victim can tell you how these things effect their manner of thinking. I will NOT be shamed into silence. In a thread focused 100% around rape victims, do you see nothing wrong with telling rape victims they have no place to share their opinions and the reasons behind them? If you speak another language, let me know. I'll be glad to translate it. IF you want to help prevent rape, focus on people who have not been raped. Because... you know... rape victims haven't yet figured out how to rewind time so that they can prevent what already happened to them. Don't worry, when we do, I'll let you know. Not that we won't already know what we're going to change to prevent it when we go back in time, but I'll give you a chance to repeat it all again anyway. |
 |
JamalKing said: I'm really not understanding how people aren't getting Nicole's logic It's making me laugh so much :| |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: JamalKing said: I'm really not understanding how people aren't getting Nicole's logic It's making me laugh so much :| Maybe there's a language barrier? There really is a dire need for a sarcasm font XD |
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Nicole said: Shiratori99 said: Banning alcohol is a good idea. Will never happen though. So in general people should be taught to not get drunk enough that they snap or pass out. No, I don't want alcohol banned, I just want men to be banned from having any. I mean, men don't really want to rape someone? But with enough alcohol and those lonely dark alleyways, who knows what could happen if you case across a girl? So I'm merely saying that men should be more cautious and having them banned from alcohol would prevent a lot of problems. How about women abort their sons from now on? After all, they might become rapists. I can play this game too. Xybirk said: Banning alcohol is not a good idea. Not only has it been done before (and failed epically), but alcohol is actually an important part of numerous cultures, and to ban it is like banning a part of culture. Of course, I don't support getting so intoxicated that you're incapable of making decisions, but you can encourage moderation without flat out banning alcohol. That's why I said it will never happen. And, drinking culture? LOL, not all "culture" is worth of being preserved. JadeQuetzal said: IF you want to help prevent rape, focus on people who have not been raped. That's what I (and most others here) have been doing all along. Just ignore the damn thread title for once. Mod Edit: double post merged. |
ThangLongMar 1, 2014 8:59 AM
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: How about women abort their sons from now on? After all, they might become rapists. I can play this game too. Don't be silly, there is nothing wrong with baby boys, it's just when they grow up when the problems happen, but I like to believe the good in people, so I believe with proper education and restriction men would be fine. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
| Most of these points are moot anyway because alcohol is not an excuse. I come from the UK and if you anything about our drinking culture you'll know that we drink to excess and then drink some more, pass out and the wake up with more alcohol. Why then aren't the statistics in the UK completely different from the rest of the world? Because alcohol plays no part whatsoever. I'm going to a party this weekend and intend to drink. I intend to have fun while staying courteous and not overstepping the mark with any women. Why? Am I from some enlightened race of men who simply "get it"? No. I'm a decent human being and no level of "skimpiness" or intoxication (of either me or any women I happen to encounter) will change that. If I stab you because your face pissed me off should I expect the judge to sentence you as well because your face pissed me off? |
Nicole said: Shiratori99 said: How about women abort their sons from now on? After all, they might become rapists. I can play this game too. Don't be silly, there is nothing wrong with baby boys, it's just when they grow up when the problems happen, but I like to believe the good in people, so I believe with proper education and restriction men would be fine. JamalKing said: Most of these points are moot anyway because alcohol is not an excuse. I come from the UK and if you anything about our drinking culture you'll know that we drink to excess and then drink some more, pass out and the wake up with more alcohol. Why then aren't the statistics in the UK completely different from the rest of the world? Because alcohol plays no part whatsoever. I'm going to a party this weekend and intend to drink. I intend to have fun while staying courteous and not overstepping the mark with any women. Why? Am I from some enlightened race of men who simply "get it"? No. I'm a decent human being and no level of "skimpiness" or intoxication (of either me or any women I happen to encounter) will change that. If I stab you because your face pissed me off should I expect the judge to sentence you as well because your face pissed me off? if only you guys were merely trolling |
JamalKing said: Most of these points are moot anyway because alcohol is not an excuse. I come from the UK and if you anything about our drinking culture you'll know that we drink to excess and then drink some more, pass out and the wake up with more alcohol. Why then aren't the statistics in the UK completely different from the rest of the world? Because alcohol plays no part whatsoever. I'm going to a party this weekend and intend to drink. I intend to have fun while staying courteous and not overstepping the mark with any women. Why? Am I from some enlightened race of men who simply "get it"? No. I'm a decent human being and no level of "skimpiness" or intoxication (of either me or any women I happen to encounter) will change that. If I stab you because your face pissed me off should I expect the judge to sentence you as well because your face pissed me off? Men who would rape someone when drunk would probably not morally object to rape in the first place and no, it is no excuse. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: JadeQuetzal said: IF you want to help prevent rape, focus on people who have not been raped. That's what I (and most others here) have been doing all along. Just ignore the damn thread title for once. and about 70% of the comments. Your hilarious inability to understand nicole's sarcastic response to rape prevention logic (take away the rights of one person to prevent another person from committing a crime against them) just did it in. If you can't understand something so obvious, then I'm wasting my time. I'll just respond by saying this. IF you want to prevent rape, assigning levels of guilt to rape VICTIMS won't help. Feel free to encourage women to stand up for themselves, to be aware of their surroundings, to recognize untrustworthy behavior... but just stop bashing victims as though it will help anyone. |
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JadeQuetzal said: I'll just respond by saying this. IF you want to prevent rape, assigning levels of guilt to rape VICTIMS won't help. Feel free to encourage women to stand up for themselves, to be aware of their surroundings, to recognize untrustworthy behavior... but just stop bashing victims as though it will help anyone. lol I feel like bashing my head against a wall already. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
| That is coming from a rape survivor, come on use your head who is in a better position to make a judgement? |
JamalKing said: That is coming from a rape survivor, come on use your head who is in a better position to make a judgement? Someone who is not involved and can judge the topic from a fair distance. |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
| A fair distance = having no idea what it's like to be in that position. |
Shiratori99 said: JamalKing said: That is coming from a rape survivor, come on use your head who is in a better position to make a judgement? Someone who is not involved and can judge the topic from a fair distance. Sorry, that's just not the way this works. This isn't something that you can understand just like that. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: I saw you doing this 3 hrs ago and was laughing pretty hard myself. Its some impressive trollingJamalKing said: I'm really not understanding how people aren't getting Nicole's logic It's making me laugh so much :| |
Shiratori99 said: Please proceed to bash your head against the wall.JamalKing said: That is coming from a rape survivor, come on use your head who is in a better position to make a judgement? Someone who is not involved and can judge the topic from a fair distance. |
Nicole said: Shiratori99 said: JamalKing said: That is coming from a rape survivor, come on use your head who is in a better position to make a judgement? Someone who is not involved and can judge the topic from a fair distance. Sorry, that's just not the way this works. This isn't something that you can understand just like that. Right, let's appoint the victim's family members as the jury in a murder/rape case then. They are the only ones who can really understand the gravity of the crime after all. Hooray for justice! |
| Proud founder of the 20+ virgins club. Please visit my manga blog for manga updates and more! Mup da doo didda po mo muhfuggen bix nood ^ Need someone who can translate this. Pm me pls. |
Shiratori99 said: JamalKing said: Most of these points are moot anyway because alcohol is not an excuse. I come from the UK and if you anything about our drinking culture you'll know that we drink to excess and then drink some more, pass out and the wake up with more alcohol. Why then aren't the statistics in the UK completely different from the rest of the world? Because alcohol plays no part whatsoever. I'm going to a party this weekend and intend to drink. I intend to have fun while staying courteous and not overstepping the mark with any women. Why? Am I from some enlightened race of men who simply "get it"? No. I'm a decent human being and no level of "skimpiness" or intoxication (of either me or any women I happen to encounter) will change that. If I stab you because your face pissed me off should I expect the judge to sentence you as well because your face pissed me off? Men who would rape someone when drunk would probably not morally object to rape in the first place and no, it is no excuse. According to your logic drunk driver will have no problem killing people sober too. |
| "After I finish fucking you. I am going to kill you." |
JackFisher said: According to your logic drunk driver will have no problem killing people sober too. Getting behind the wheel of your car, is a bit different to putting your dick instead someone against their will. It's a tragedy when people are killed from drunk driving, it destroys lives and families, both the victims and the perpetrators, the difference is, nobody blames the ones killed by the drunk driver, they don't say the fact that they weren't were bright colours which glow when headlights are shining at them, means they are at least 'partially responsible'. Rape victims are forced to go over it again and again and can be re-traumatised on many occasions, threads like this can bring up horrible memories, just as a pure example... The people that kill someone when they are drunk driving generally feel extreme remorse and can suffer for many years from it. This isn't the case with most rapists, certainly not the ones who purposely rape someone, but a lot of rapes are from men who don't even realise that what they are doing is rape and never accept it. This is just different to that, the families, at the very least, and however small, generally have the perpetrators unreserved regret about their actions, rape victims rarely ever get that, never mind the incredibly low rate of convictions, not to mention many of the (already small number) of convictions are often not for rape as they get downgraded to other crimes, such as assault. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: JackFisher said: According to your logic drunk driver will have no problem killing people sober too. Getting behind the wheel of your car, is a bit different to putting your dick instead someone against their will. It's a tragedy when people are killed from drunk driving, it destroys lives and families, both the victims and the perpetrators, the difference is, nobody blames the ones killed by the drunk driver, they don't say the fact that they weren't were bright colours which glow when headlights are shining at them, means they are at least 'partially responsible'. Rape victims are forced to go over it again and again and can be re-traumatised on many occasions, threads like this can bring up horrible memories, just as a pure example... The people that kill someone when they are drunk driving generally feel extreme remorse and can suffer for many years from it. This isn't the case with most rapists, certainly not the ones who purposely rape someone, but a lot of rapes are from men who don't even realise that what they are doing is rape and never accept it. This is just different to that, the families, at the very least, and however small, generally have the perpetrators unreserved regret about their actions, rape victims rarely ever get that, never mind the incredibly low rate of convictions, not to mention many of the (already small number) of convictions are often not for rape as they get downgraded to other crimes, such as assault. victims of drunk driving do have responsibility for the situation theyre in. they are responsible for the fact that they chose to drive out somewhere however, they are not at fault for being victimized assuming some things about the situation it doesnt matter how the perpetrator feels either. the only thing that matters is that someone was victimized, and that is primarily what is focused on in the court of law. |
Nicole said: RandomChampion said: This is unimportantNicole said: So basically, what people are saying is. If you don't want to get raped, don't drink ever, don't go out at night, never meet new people and never wear skimpy clothes. What you want to do is take away any kind of freedom that women have by blaming them for when a man can't control himself. This is literally not what is being said by most if not all people (including OP) Yeah, totally unimportant after you argued for 20 pages that OP was saying exactly what you deem "unimportant" at the moment. Shiratori99 said: JamalKing said: That is coming from a rape survivor, come on use your head who is in a better position to make a judgement? Someone who is not involved and can judge the topic from a fair distance. Sorry, that's just not the way this works. This isn't something that you can understand just like that. I have to have cancer to be able to treat it as a doctor now. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
RandomChampion said: victims of drunk driving do have responsibility for the situation theyre in. they are responsible for the fact that they chose to drive out somewhere Erm...what? oO And it does matter, the family of the victim aren't re-traumatised over and over again. They rarely get told things like "well he/she was clearly asking for it", etc. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Immahnoob said: Nicole said: RandomChampion said: This is unimportantNicole said: So basically, what people are saying is. If you don't want to get raped, don't drink ever, don't go out at night, never meet new people and never wear skimpy clothes. What you want to do is take away any kind of freedom that women have by blaming them for when a man can't control himself. This is literally not what is being said by most if not all people (including OP) Yeah, totally unimportant after you argued for 20 pages that OP was saying exactly what you deem "unimportant" at the moment. i figured that i was being trolled at that point lol Nicole said: RandomChampion said: victims of drunk driving do have responsibility for the situation theyre in. they are responsible for the fact that they chose to drive out somewhere Erm...what? oO And it does matter, the family of the victim aren't re-traumatised over and over again. They rarely get told things like "well he/she was clearly asking for it", etc. What I'm saying is that as long as you make a decision and act on it, you have responsiblity for the situation you are in as a result. Some decisions lead to more risk than others. So I can be extremely careful and not leave the basement and watch anime all day, or i can take a greater risk by going into the sunlight and taking a drive in my car. Or, I can go for a ride on my motorcycle. The risk of me getting into a motor vehicle accident increases with each decision and acion on it. If i decide to go on motorcycle, i am responsible for putting myself into more danger. Similarly, the woman who decides to be scantily clad at night at a bar is putting herself at a greater risk. However, in all cases, if me/the woman get victimized by drunk driver/rapist respectively, i/the woman not necessarily at fault for being victimized. I dont quite follow, but if there is a case for anything, it should be brought to the court of law as another charge against the whoever is being accused. |
RandomChampionFeb 26, 2014 9:35 AM
| No, no, RandomChampion, Nicole is totally serious. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: No, no, RandomChampion, Nicole is totally serious. and that's why i gave up on the feminism threads.....i got pulled back into this oen a bit though lol |
RandomChampion said: What I'm saying is that as long as you make a decision and act on it, you have responsiblity for the situation you are in as a result. Some decisions lead to more risk than others. So I can be extremely careful and not leave the basement and watch anime all day You realise how ridiculous this is right? D: Also, not all people killed by drunk driving were even in a car, look at that ridiculous case in the US of that rich kid who got off killing 4 people when he was drunk, none of them were in a car when it happened. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: RandomChampion said: What I'm saying is that as long as you make a decision and act on it, you have responsiblity for the situation you are in as a result. Some decisions lead to more risk than others. So I can be extremely careful and not leave the basement and watch anime all day You realise how ridiculous this is right? D: Also, not all people killed by drunk driving were even in a car, look at that ridiculous case in the US of that rich kid who got off killing 4 people when he was drunk, none of them were in a car when it happened. It's not ridiculous. It's a fact. Whatever the case, you put yourself at risk by going outside, crossing the street, what have you. Those 4 people put themselves out there at risk of someone else harming them, etc. I'm not blaming those 4 people for being victimized. They do have responsibility for being in that situation though I would say that this topic (responsibility for being in a situation) is practically pointless (on top of that it's poorly worded) if it wasnt for many feminists burying anybody for giving a mere suggestion that minimizes risk for, what is to most people, a small cost. It shows that they do not understand what "blame" (in being victimized) actually is (in a legal sense - as far as I'm concerned that's all that matters since that is what we all agree to abide by in social contracts). In fact, when people criticize the suggestion of covering up more, being more alert/less drunk in specific situations, etc, it probably is doing harm in that a young girl will probably put herself more in harm's way. So again, we all know you guys have the right to wear what you want, drink what you want, and go where ever you want. Just like I'm allowed to park my car on the street with the doors unlocked, leave my house door unlocked, and keep my cash in a bush outside. In both cases, most people would call that woman and me foolish, stupid, irresponsible, etc due to the real world being what it is. |
| Again, I asked this before, but why is women's behavior when drunk in question, when mens is not? Are we supposed to just accept that a low cut top and a short skirt is somehow enough to drive men completely wild that they can't possibly keep their hands to themselves. Are you really saying men are that pathetic? |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: Are we supposed to just accept that a low cut top and a short skirt is somehow enough to drive men completely wild that they can't possibly keep their hands to themselves. Well, I would have a different response to a girl dressed like that and a girl dressed in some kind of hard, spiky metal armor. |
Nicole said: Again, I asked this before, but why is women's behavior when drunk in question, when mens is not? Are we supposed to just accept that a low cut top and a short skirt is somehow enough to drive men completely wild that they can't possibly keep their hands to themselves. Are you really saying men are that pathetic? The rapist's behaviour IS questioned....what is going to court and getting tried and punished if guilty? But, let me ask you if the rape victim would choose getting raped+ sending the rapist to life in prison, or not getting raped in the first place. That's all it comes down to. |
RandomChampion said: That's all it comes down to. If that was the case, why is there so much victim blaming? And there is, you know damn well there is, it's the FIRST thing people think about when they hear someone was raped "What was she wearing, where was she, how drunk was she" etc. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
Nicole said: RandomChampion said: That's all it comes down to. If that was the case, why is there so much victim blaming? And there is, you know damn well there is, it's the FIRST thing people think about when they hear someone was raped "What was she wearing, where was she, how drunk was she" etc. Actually, I dont know that there is lol. In fact, the law is on the rape victim's side (unless ive been sorely mistaken this whole time), society (my society at least_ frowns upon rape In any case, that's not what this topic is about. This topic is about rape victims having responsibility for situations they put themselves in (a usully practically pointless topic, but i bet the OP made this topic because of all the criticism, in the feminism topics, against anybody who suggests that women be more careful) Giving that suggestion =/= blaming the rape victim. |
RandomChampion said: Actually, I dont know that there is lol. I'm done. |
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
cabacc2 said: Do you deny that victims hold at least a tiny bit responsibility if they put themselves in a situation willingly, where the chance of being raped is exponentially higher? I agree that blaming the victim wont help. But this doesnt deny the fact that they hold responsibility (in extreme cases.) You sir, are a buffoon. Why do you even care so much about "extreme cases" why partake in a discussion that shames them into silence if by your own admission they are "extreme cases". Most sex crimes come from the family and close friends anyway. I'm really quite disheartened that one of the first threads I encounter here is one that shows the forum in an incredibly bad light. People's true colours come out when discussions like this take place and they're really not pretty. |
Nicole said: RandomChampion said: Actually, I dont know that there is lol. I'm done. What this means is that you have no evidence to support your ridiculous claim (that has nothign to do with the topic in the first place) that the first thing everyone thinks when hearing about a rape is "what was she wearing" I cannot even think of anybody I know who would have that thought first. |
cabacc2 said: Do you deny that victims hold at least a tiny bit responsibility if they put themselves in a situation willingly, where the chance of being raped is exponentially higher? I'm saying the victim has literally 0 responsibility whatsoever, unless she runs around screaming please someone rape me, rape me rape me. RandomChampion said: What this means is that you have no evidence to support your ridiculous claim Every rape case that has ever existed. Mod Edit: double post merged. |
ThangLongMar 1, 2014 9:12 AM
| "If you love someone Follow your heart Cause love comes once If you’re lucky enough" |
RandomChampion said: Nicole said: RandomChampion said: Actually, I dont know that there is lol. I'm done. What this means is that you have no evidence to support your ridiculous claim (that has nothign to do with the topic in the first place) that the first thing everyone thinks when hearing about a rape is "what was she wearing" I cannot even think of anybody I know who would have that thought first. Get your head out of your ass, climb down off that high horse and talk to a rape survivor (there's one on this thread for f*ck sake) and you'll get your answer. |
JamalKing said: Get your head out of your ass, climb down off that high horse and talk to a rape survivor (there's one on this thread for f*ck sake) and you'll get your answer. The rape survivor is biased though, I can also claim to be a "rape survivor", in actuality, we were both drunk, I said "no" because she was ugly (it was my first time too), she mounted me, I enjoyed it, I didn't care afterwards. I do regret it didn't go like I wanted it though (I wanted to be more active, I was a vegetable), I'm just saying that "asking a rape survivor" is the most biased argument you can make. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
RandomChampion said: Actually, I dont know that there is lol. In fact, the law is on the rape victim's side (unless ive been sorely mistaken this whole time), society (my society at least_ frowns upon rape Unless you have been in a rape victim's shoes, you would likely not. Rape survivors rarely ever speak out, so you will not even find many first hand open accounts of how society treats them. The actual laws in many countries do aim at preventing rape and punishing rapists. However, the ones that must enforce those laws are human beings. As per my own situation... I was 15... brought down to the police station about what happened when I was younger. I was scared and crying. The police woman (that they put on my case supposedly to be sensitive to the subject) was screaming at me "why are you crying!? You know what I think? I think you're crying because YOU are trying to send an innocent man to jail, and you feel guilty". So no. The law is not always on our side, because the ones that enforce it often times do not have absolutely any training on the topic, and so they judge victims from an entirely ignorant perspective, not understand anything about it. As per society in general, actually yes. The vast majority of people in my country frown upon rape. However, the vast majority frown upon a lot of things. The vast majority is not the problem. The low life loud mouths are always the ones that ruin it for everyone, both in crime and hatred. If you are only told 20 times in your life that you are at fault, that's really not that many considering the millions of interactions you may have had. But being told 20 times that you are at fault for a crime committed against you can be extremely damaging regardless, especially depending who those 20 people are. It's easy enough for me to ignore some like cabage, but if he were to talk that way to his own sister, or cousin, or good friend.... the impact those words would have on them would be detrimental to their mental health. That's just talking about the usa, and nowhere else. |
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