Girl tortured to death in Japan, killers now scot-free. (Warning: graphic descriptions)

RandomStuff said:
Think the megaupload guy got quite a bit, tho I think there may have been more than one charge involved. Either way I do not care too much, ultimately an analogy's purpose is not to be 100% accurate but to prove a point through comparison. You have failed to understand the example was only made to point out the inconsistencies in justice, that sentences are not always correctly weighed with the magnitude of the crime. Often money and power can weigh huge factors in determining outcomes in the court room, which is far from true justice.

RandomStuff said:
-And how do you coerce them into doing these tasks should they simply refuse? Not like they really have anything to lose, and the threat of solitary confinement would be a blessing for someone with my personality.My point was you have this fantastic routine outlined that is supposed to teach them structure, well so does society in the development of a person, they have failed to follow that, so what is so different from needing to follow society's routine?

RandomStuff said:
-I would agree people can only learn through experience, I wouldn't say anything to the contrary. It is you who suggest the purpose of prison is to rehabilitate, not to maintain an efficient/orderly society. I hold no belief that prison's purpose should be centered around reforming, that is opinion not fact no matter which standpoint you adopt. This is where I claimed your emotions were coming into play, because you are taking far greater risks than benefit society in the belief you can help reform these people. Ultimately, you are championing the rights of criminals over the good of society, and my logic cares not for how the greater good is obtained, only that it is.

RandomStuff said:
Almost every claim of experience as a method of reforming people [should they be capable/ignoring its flaws] was met with bitter criticism by none other than yourself. If you're not going to teach them through experience then I imagine only words or things of a similar sort are left as a possibility, unless I am missing something. As long as you advocate no coercive manners of teaching, you will not be able to do anything with these prisoners, because they can simply refuse to do what you have asked of them. All you talk about is an ideal, where they simply listen and follow the routine you set, if they could do that then they wouldn't be there in the first place. So tell me, how do you ENFORCE this routine on them? How do you prevent me from saying "No, I won't do it"?

RandomStuff said:
And how do they know how to manipulate the system? Because they read "Crime for dummies 101"? I highly doubt it, they noticed certain correlations in their experiences that allowed them to practically apply such methods. Often more than not their own words are what are the most incriminating, so I would say that fails to help them in manipulating the system. I can see what you say about the paradox that they would use words to deceive, but perhaps I should rephrase "WORDS WORDS WORDS" as I intended, that no matter how strong or structured your argument I can choose simply not to listen even if it is stronger than my own, thus "WORDS WORDS WORDS" since all I hear is blah blah blah I'm not going to care what's coming out of your mouth, I have no reason to change or listen if I don't need to. People don't often take the opinions of others into serious account, growing worse as we become more set in our ways.

RandomStuff said:
Ultimately I am against your idea of prison as a reformation because it provides little incentive for change. Prison is merely a tool for society to use to maintain justice and order, reforming people is incredibly difficult. Look at our own debate, I assume most people would see both of us as rational people, yet neither of us has really convinced the other of absolutely anything new despite the length of this matter. Words have failed to accomplish anything here, and no matter how long we continue it will probably not change either of our standpoints. If you cannot convince me of anything then how do you expect to convince prisoners, who also might have far more conviction to remain set in their ways than I do? This is why I say reform fails as you describe it, the proof is in the very course of this argument along with the millions of other internet threads with people arguing out there.

RandomStuff said:
Again, it is your opinion alone and not mine that prison is meant to reform above all else. That is only a secondary concern to upholding justice to me, which upholds the benefit of society over all else [in its ideal form].

Assassin9399 said:

Have you ever watched some movies about the medieval times with executions? It's cruel and stupid, enjoying the pain of others. It's the same as they did, not? What they didn't knew however, is that not everyone is guilty. Never read in the newspapers that someone was convicted of a crime he didn't do? And imagine when that person is executed. When you know that, do you still think they should be killed?

iNeon said:
Death sentence isnt not enough these bastards need to live a life full of pain like she did
I say torture sentence where there tortued the same way for the rest of the god forbidden lifes!
Honestly one of the worst things i think i've ever read.

xthedestroyer said:
No, because life in prison will never ever make them understand the suffering and horror that poor girl went through. They need to understand just how that poor thing felt .

Kusakusa said:
Interesting and very disturbing. I consider it a fundamental failing of the system in its inability produce justice when it comes to such extreme extreme cases. Just about to start criminal law and procedure at uni so this is good timing though unfortunately for me it is a foreign case. Would probably be an interesting case to read nonetheless if I can find an English version. Makes me wonder if there is an equivalent case in Australia....

Monad said:

I think this staff are ridiculous. I am in aw every time i hear people going after blood like crazy. You are like those crowds in ancients times who loved watching people killed and tortured in different ways in frond of their eyes.
And personally i think people who want to see criminals tortured are closer to doing similar staff as the criminals that people who simply do not want such acts done in general.

Whether this guys feel the girls pain or not is irrelevant. The girl ain't going to come back and nether what she suffered will go away.
Courts and law shouldn't be used for be vengeance that not the reason they exist. And is not right that sometimes are used like that. They should exist for the protection of society.
They shouldn't be going after revenge, revenge is pointless, they should look at protecting society from dangerous individuals and seek reform.

RandomStuff said:
Justice is about doing what is right, ensuring the equality that upholds the well being of society. It is equivalent exchange, and it would be a horrible misconception to paint a demand for equality as a demand for vengeance representative of medieval times. If you kill someone and society kills you in return, it is an equivalent exchange. If you slice off someone's hand for stealing a loaf of bread or torture someone for 2 years and kill them simply because they shot someone, that would be vengeance. Only if you ask more of them than they gave would it be vengeance.

RandomStuff said:


The current system of a slap on the wrist even for the most brutal crimes however, hardly has any incentive to steer away from committing crimes. On the contrary, justice has nothing to do with emotion, and that goes both ways, not just for the champions of the victim, but for those who feel sympathy for the criminals' punishment so long as it is not greater than their crime.

Justice is about doing what is right, ensuring the equality that upholds the well being of society. It is equivalent exchange, and it would be a horrible misconception to paint a demand for equality as a demand for vengeance representative of medieval times. If you kill someone and society kills you in return, it is an equivalent exchange. If you slice off someone's hand for stealing a loaf of bread or torture someone for 2 years and kill them simply because they shot someone, that would be vengeance. Only if you ask more of them than they gave would it be vengeance.

I think your idea that if any harm comes to prisoners it is vengeance is simply an oversight glossing over the harm they have done to others and treating them like victims of their environment on some humanitarian reform cause. For over 2000 years people have been trying to reform humanity for the better and failed miserably at it. Our technology and all our knowledge has not changed human nature one bit, and I'm pretty sure we've exhausted almost every possible idea of every misguided idealism you can think of through the billions of people who championed these ideas over the ages. Needless to say, with at least millions of others before you who claimed they had the answer to a better reformation of mankind failing, I can't help but believe it is simply another ideal denying the reality that has proven itself throughout all of mankind's history, that we are incapable of reform until we evolve into something higher than man.

RandomStuff said:

I fail to see how prison is not a slap on the wrist, you're required to do nothing but stay out of society and everything else is given essentially free to you for food, water and shelter all paid by the population of people you harmed in some manner, all the while other people work like slaves in many places to get half of that. It is far from luxurious, but a lot of people do not need excessive means, granted at least my own culture is getting ridiculous expectations for a standard of living. There are also plenty of people for whom these conditions would actually be an improvement in their quality of life. As someone who has no real attachments to the outside world as a mostly anti-social, I sometimes wonder if I would actually be better off in prison, as I do not need excessive means. I do not see why society should have to support a man for life for taking the life of another, that seems more of like a reward to me than a punishment.

RandomStuff said:

You don't want to resort to their level, but you fail to acknowledge you are already at their level. While "criminal" is a convenient word for many purposes, they are ultimately still a human being. You can try and delude yourself into thinking there is any real difference between you and that criminal, but at the end of the day you are no different. If you're going to presume you are above this person because you believe yourself to be "good" and them to be "evil", than you fail to acknowledge your own potential for evil. As long as they are human and you are too, you are one in the same no matter which way you spin it.

Baman said:
The only justice related equality that is important is that similar cases be treated similarly and that everyone gets a fair trial.
It doesn't really make sense to demand a proportionate response in terms of punishment. The whole idea is that the state should make as little intervention into personal freedom as possible, and the legal system is really just there to ensure order and the continued functioning of society. So it goes without saying that reform is preferable to elimination if possible, you'd rather repair the broken gears in your clockwork than throw it away, assuming it is at all doable and the costs are not too high.

Baman said:
But at any rate, I'd only consider the really dangerous fit for termination, IF the danger they pose to society exceeds the assumed chance of them being reformed, they should be disposed of for the good of everyone. Typically mentally ill killers and such rabble.

ELAN_VITAL said:
This is disgusting : s Makes me want to torture them and let them feel the girls pain.

DraconisMarch said:
What makes you think such people could even be useful to society in any way at all? People like this are more like monkey wrenches in the system. Their existence is a threat to society in general.

MessageInTime said:
If only this had happened in China. They would have all been killed. What a horrible story.

Flaky said:
Read this article three years ago and whenever I think about Junko's sufferings, it makes me believe again how the world is such an ugly place as years pass by. I wouldn't be surprised if killing an infant won't be that of a big deal. Compared to the past generations, today seems to be.. so liberated and stupid, I'm sorry to say.

OriginANIME said:
And wtf, 8 years only? If I was the parent I would go kill those dudes and then go 8 years in prison. Its worth it.

hikky said:
What I'm always surprised about is that people can read something like this and turn right around and say they want to do the same thing to the people who did it.

As if it suddenly becomes okay because you decided that the person deserves it. That kind of thinking is the reason this stuff happens in the first place.

hikky said:
What I'm always surprised about is that people can read something like this and turn right around and say they want to do the same thing to the people who did it.

As if it suddenly becomes okay because you decided that the person deserves it. That kind of thinking is the reason this stuff happens in the first place.

RandomStuff said:


This is the reason it happens in the first place? That would be implying the girl did something on this level to them first, sorry kiddo but for one they wouldn't be alive, and secondly, this happens because there is a great potential for evil within all humans. Now there are some good reasons for saying not to inflict it back, but this has to be the most nonsensical one I've read.

The same sentiment could be said of your cause, that things like this suddenly become "ok just because they didn't really understand what they were doing". They're young and impressionable after all, it's all just fun and games right?

Not sure if you read my other posts in this thread but I advise you to if you have not if you reply, since I have a feeling I'd just be repeating my points otherwise.

hikky said:

The belief that the individual is justified in deciding what happens to another person is the way of thinking that causes these things.

You say eye for an eye. But experience is not equal from person to person. If I'm a masochist and go around poking people with needles, it's not going to be a very good punishment to poke me with needles, is it? Well, in that case you'd have to think up a punishment that you thought was about equally bad for me as it was for other people to be poked by my needles. You would need to subjectively decide on a punishment for me, based on the principle that I "deserved" it. And at that point, you'll find a way to justify anything you want to do to me, especially since your perception of my suffering will be skewed by the fact that you don't like me.

The point is that whether or not someone deserves something is subjective because people value different things differently. Doing something to someone because they "deserve it" or because the individual otherwise justifies the harm they are doing is the cause of all kinds of atrocity committed by surprisingly sane people.

The goal of punishment should be prevention, not some notion of fairness or equality and especially not revenge. Revenge of any kind accomplishes nothing but to set an ugly precedent.

bannie said:
Death penalty clearly.

Patito91 said:
there is a significant dilema on the girl´s parents, between what you should do and want you want to do. but considering that japan justice system is so lame, well, it would be a really difficult choise for them, first you hoped that police do their job, but it results on an epic fail, then you ended up watching the bastard on the street as free as a bird, i got to say thats a big challenge, ´couse lets face it, obviosly is easy to give an opinion when you are just a viewer, but at the end of the day, on this times, people kill someone for less than that... so on this one i got go with the not peaceful choise, and hope for her parents to do what they have to.....