Which do you prefer?
Only subs - original audio is best.
45.9%
1,121
Mostly subbed, some dubbed.
29.7%
725
Only dubbed - I like it in my native language.
2.3%
57
Mostly dubbed, some subbed.
8.0%
195
Both subbed and dubbed equally.
11.5%
280
Raw.
2.6%
64
2,442 votes
| I kinda go 50/50 with dubs and subs. If characters have non-japanese names, the dubs seem less weird when saying the names i reckon. |
| My Policy: I only watch an anime series subbed if it does not have an American, Australian, or Canadian English Dub, and I don't know for sure that it will ever get english dubbed. |
KidRyanMay 8, 2010 1:40 AM
| only teh sub cuz dubs are teh suka and i r tru animay fani no1 whoes a TRU animay fan wuld lidten to dem amewicans tlk da shizzle |
| Sub > Dub , but Dub can improve your English a bit. |
| Retired L2&WoW player. /b/ ftw. |
Redfoxoffire said: I'm sorry for digging up this "old" argument but I was reading through what I had missed and this struck me as an interesting analogy and you guys just brushed it aside.V3x said: Let's say you're going to eat some ice cream with strawberry and vanilla flavor. Then you replace the vanilla with chocolate because you don't really care for vanilla. - Is chocolate better than vanilla? No, it's a matter of taste. - Are you eating the same thing? No. I'm assuming you were talking to me. If not, I apologize. As a matter of taste, this is good. Chocolate is not better than vanilla, just like subs are not necessarily better than dubs. But your second statement isn't accurate. You are not eating the same flavor, but you are still eating ice cream. V3x is basically saying that there are 2 parts to anime, the audio part and the video part. There's also arguably the story part which can be changed by modifying the audio, video or both. Anyway, at which point does anime stop being anime or, alternatively, become anime? If you replace the audio track? If you replace the video track? If you change the story? If you censor it? Let's have some examples for debate: 1. Ghost Stories dub - The dub is basically a different show, from what I'm told. Light shedding, please. 2. Any standard dub where the translation is faithful. 3. Robotech vs. Macross or if people are more familar with it, DBZ. 4. A Japanese dub of the American version of the Powerpuff Girls. 5. The English dub of the Japanese version of the Powerpuff Girls. 6. Hypothetical example where Dance in the Vampire Bund were to be animated by the same guys that animate The Simpson's but with the original voices intact. 7. Hypothetical example where The Simpson's were to be animated by the same guys that animate Dance in the Vampire Bund but with the original voices intact. 8. A remake of Dance in the Vampire Bund, completely animated and voiced in America by the guys that make The Simpson's. 9. A remake of The Simpson's, completely animated and voiced in Japan by the guys that make Dance in the Vampire Bund. Which of these are anime, and which are not? For me, none of them are. Anime consists of 3 parts, audio, video and story and replacing any one of them just means it isn't anime anymore. It may look or sound like anime, but that still doesn't mean it's anime. It's debatable if subtitles change the meaning of anime but since dubs would too that's a meaningless argument for the purposes of this thread. I hope I didn't go too far off-topic. Actually, I'm not sure what the topic is. Preference? Oh, never mind then. _______________________________________________________________________________________________ Also, thanks for the mad referral, Baby_Naruto. It's always nice to be mistaken for a thing. It's too bad you're not 100% dub anymore, we need somebody on that side to balance the force. All of these half-breeds makes for some lame debating... |
kuroshiroi said: Which of these are anime, and which are not? For me, none of them are. Anime consists of 3 parts, audio, video and story and replacing any one of them just means it isn't anime anymore. It may look or sound like anime, but that still doesn't mean it's anime. It's debatable if subtitles change the meaning of anime but since dubs would too that's a meaningless argument for the purposes of this thread. Any of the ones made by the Japanese are anime. That is what anime is: Japanese animation (I'm pretty sure "anime" only means "animation" in Japanese, and if I'm right, the Japanese would refer to American animation as anime as well). It has nothing to do with the sound. If you think it does, I'll lay it out for you; you're wrong. Sound and story only enhance the experience, they do not define it (as anime). It's too bad you're not 100% dub anymore, we need somebody on that side to balance the force. All of these half-breeds makes for some lame debating... Sorry my arguments aren't interesting enough for you. |
V3x said: Ok, I guess you don't have much experience with subbed anime at all. I have seen over 350 different series/movies, and can't think of more than a handful where things are "plastered all over the screen", and in those they were really needed. i guess you dont have much experience with dubbed anime becasue its not as bad as you make it out to be, fucking hypocrite, typical sub only fan V3x said: Of course there are translation notes every 5 seconds, they are there to help you understand what people are saying. You're saying it like they're an annoyance. Superimposed translations. Again, yes, they cover a fraction of the screen. A fraction. Compared to the removal of the entire voice layer... I don't really mind some extra lines of text in the credits, and can't comprehend why anyone would either. there shouldnt be fucking translation notes, they should just translate the word instead of being a bunch of fucking weeaboos who think japanese is a sacred language: http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/239/outstandingfansubqualit.png http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/5778/animefansubfailure001.jpg and they dont cover a fraction of the screen they cover the whole thing most of the time: http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9732/65026468xanimefansubfait.jpg or their completely off the mark: http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/8953/animefansubfailure002.jpg or its just plain stupid: http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/1650/animefansubfailure015.jpg |
supersonic124May 8, 2010 5:16 AM
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| You can't hotlink images on sankaku. Besides, those kind of things are always bottom tier examples; yes, there are really crappy fansub groups out there that do really idiotic stuff, but they're easy to avoid. Stick to the better ones and you won't have an issue. Citing the likes of speedsubs or some kiddy who discovered aegisub and is modifying scripts to do dumbshit, is hardly an anti-sub argument. Nor is it fair or remotely sensible to say fansubs are automatically inferior to professionally produced subs. You know why? Most anime has dialogue targeted at children to teenagers. Largely it isn't very complex, and it doesn't take someone with a masters in Japanese to translate it. So scraping the bottom of the barrel, picking out the worst possible examples is hardly a fair representation of fansubs. The majority of modern fansubs are just as good as R1 DVD subtitles, if not better (aesthetically) due to the flexibility of ASS compared to vobsubs. |
Asako said: You can't hotlink images on sankaku. Besides, those kind of things are always bottom tier examples; yes, there are really crappy fansub groups out there that do really idiotic stuff, but they're easy to avoid. Stick to the better ones and you won't have an issue. Citing the likes of speedsubs or some kiddy who discovered aegisub and is modifying scripts to do dumbshit, is hardly an anti-sub argument. Nor is it fair or remotely sensible to say fansubs are automatically inferior to professionally produced subs. You know why? Most anime has dialogue targeted at children to teenagers. Largely it isn't very complex, and it doesn't take someone with a masters in Japanese to translate it. So scraping the bottom of the barrel, picking out the worst possible examples is hardly a fair representation of fansubs. The majority of modern fansubs are just as good as R1 DVD subtitles, if not better (aesthetically) due to the flexibility of ASS compared to vobsubs. thats not true at all heres a screen cap of a fansub i have on my pc: http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6463/capturepi.jpg what the fuck is a showa 58? a r1 dvd would never do a half assed translation like that |
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| y r u ppl arguin whn evrey1 noes dat subs r da bst? itss stewpd and maks u gays lok lik retireds jus agre to dissagre wit ech over ad mov on m8s... |
| Well well, someone hasn't watched the Baccano, Cromartie High School, or the DBZ dub. |
supersonic124 said: thats not true at all heres a screen cap of a fansub i have on my pc: http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6463/capturepi.jpg what the fuck is a showa 58? a r1 dvd would never do a half assed translation like that If you had some basic knowledge of Japan history you would know Showa is referring to an era like the Nara or Heian. Another example would be like the Han Dynasty for China. So I would not say that's a "half assed translation". I think a R1 DvD translation would actually put in "Showa 58" still. Looking at your other post, you were annoyed at the fact that fansubbers sometimes put in translation notes. Shouldn't you be glad they didn't put it in that particular shot then? Really, I think you're just nitpicking at the bad sub times (which I admit there can be a lot of). But here is an option, pick another subbing group if you didn't like what they did. If there are no other groups, then I guess you can wait for dubs. Then again, I can do the same thing with dubs as well. I'll give an example of the Fate/stay night versions. Japanese Version English Version *might not load up, darn youtube* Was there a need to change the words between the Japanese dialogue to English Dialogue transfer? Does it sound better if its changed around like that? Does it have a greater impact to the viewers if they changed "Yet those hands will never hold anything" to "And yet those hands that have braved so much will never hold anything"? Don't get me wrong, I love Archer's voice in both versions but I see no point in changing the spell chant. Not sure if this one will be relevant but here is a Korean dub version 한국어 버전 |
zensourenMay 8, 2010 2:38 PM
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| I like subs, created, made by fansub (amateurs); because I really like their comments on series and they explain parodies, unlike official, authorised, licensed works by professionals. |
| The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. I do not recall, Jesus ever saying "build churches, temples, and kill those who doesn't follow christianity..." nor he said "christianity is religion". News for VN immigrants in EU: vietinfo.eu |
Redfoxoffire said: Animation does not anime make, just like movies are not just moving pictures. Sound is 50%, video is 50% and the story is lodged somewhere in between. Any audio/visual medium relies on the two equally to make a convincing experience. Change one factor and you've got a different experience, a different thing. I really feel one is simply watching cartoons when watching dubbed anime; the soul is gone. You may just be in it for the story and the animation but I'm in it for the whole "anime" experience.kuroshiroi said: Which of these are anime, and which are not? For me, none of them are. Anime consists of 3 parts, audio, video and story and replacing any one of them just means it isn't anime anymore. It may look or sound like anime, but that still doesn't mean it's anime. It's debatable if subtitles change the meaning of anime but since dubs would too that's a meaningless argument for the purposes of this thread. Any of the ones made by the Japanese are anime. That is what anime is: Japanese animation (I'm pretty sure "anime" only means "animation" in Japanese, and if I'm right, the Japanese would refer to American animation as anime as well). It has nothing to do with the sound. If you think it does, I'll lay it out for you; you're wrong. Sound and story only enhance the experience, they do not define it (as anime). Also, I'd like you to state which of the 9 examples I mentioned would be anime, by your standards. Saying "Any of the ones made by the Japanese are anime." is meaningless because it's not a black and white issue and all of those would at least be part Japanese. If it's not stated, the story is the same and the translation would be faithful. Since you seem to think that the animation is the only thing that defines anime, what about picture dramas? Not a whole lot of animation going on there, just a whole lot of talking and the thing that defines picture dramas is the dialog. I guess that's not anime, since it doesn't have enough unique frames? I'll agree that without video it's not anime and that without audio/dialog it's still anime. However, there's no need for subs or dubs in silent anime/anime without dialog and drama CDs/audio books? are impossible to sub or dub without changing the medium or the entire experience. What defines the anime we're currently discussing is audio + video + dialog + story. Don't act like any one of these parts is irrelevant or doesn't define the experience. It's insulting to the entire medium. Finally, because I apparently like to type, vanilla + strawberry = anime, chocolate + strawberry = cartoon. Both are animation = ice cream but not both are anime, as I define it. |
zensouren said: English Version *might not load up, darn youtube* This video won't load for me for some reason, but Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works hasn't even been licensed in the west so there's no way this can be an official English dub. Of course, it would help if I could actually hear Archer so I can see for myself if Liam O'Brien is the voice. Or if this is from the main series (which I haven't seen in quite some time, so I can't tell), it may just be a case of the extended dialogue fitting the lip flaps better. |
| Subs definitely, but I sometimes watch dubs, when I have to, but it is annoying to see the character's mouth moving after the dubber already said the phrase :( |
Redfoxoffire said: zensouren said: English Version *might not load up, darn youtube* This video won't load for me for some reason, but Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works hasn't even been licensed in the west so there's no way this can be an official English dub. Of course, it would help if I could actually hear Archer so I can see for myself if Liam O'Brien is the voice. Or if this is from the main series (which I haven't seen in quite some time, so I can't tell), it may just be a case of the extended dialogue fitting the lip flaps better. It's from the main series not the Unlimited Blade Works movie. I don't think that would be the case though (the matching of the lip flaps). What would've changed to extend their speaking animation? The spell chant is in English for the Japanese version. Also just to nitpick at this bit more, here's a sub failure from a DvD from FUNimation: supersonic124 said: a r1 dvd would never do a half assed translation like that |
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| I prefer subs... ...Unless it's Andrew W.K. doing the dubbing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZtlFXgkvKw |
zensouren said: supersonic124 said: thats not true at all heres a screen cap of a fansub i have on my pc: http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/6463/capturepi.jpg what the fuck is a showa 58? a r1 dvd would never do a half assed translation like that If you had some basic knowledge of Japan history you would know Showa is referring to an era like the Nara or Heian. Another example would be like the Han Dynasty for China. So I would not say that's a "half assed translation". I think a R1 DvD translation would actually put in "Showa 58" still. i shouldnt need a phd in japanese history to watch an anime, why cant they just put in june of 1983 or w/e instead of showa 58 fansubbers need to stop being a bunch of fucking weeaboos, an offical translation would just put june of 1983 or something zensouren said: Also just to nitpick at this bit more, here's a sub failure from a DvD from FUNimation: supersonic124 said: a r1 dvd would never do a half assed translation like that yeah everybody makes mistakes every now and then BUT the fucking fansubbers leave jap words in the translation ALL THE TIME instead of uh...... translating them: http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6987/55636948.jpg http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5065/56083043.jpg http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8594/34420194.jpg http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6445/45776403.jpg |
supersonic124May 8, 2010 3:44 PM
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kuroshiroi said: Animation does not anime make, Yes, it does. I don't know what else I can say other than that is what anime is. Anime is animation, just like 1 + 1 = 2. Sound is 50%, video is 50% and the story is lodged somewhere in between. Any audio/visual medium relies on the two equally to make a convincing experience. To make a convincing experience, sure. To make it defined as "anime?" All you need is the animation. Change one factor and you've got a different experience, a different thing. I really feel one is simply watching cartoons when watching dubbed anime; the soul is gone. Anime is cartoons. Cartoon is just a broader term that includes other forms of media. Dubbed anime only gives a different experience if you allow it to; like I mentioned before, I watched Death Note first in Japanese then in English and I got the same thing out of each. It was the same story, same characters, etc. just in a different spoken language. I didn't lose anything, and it's been the same for any show I've seen in both languages (which I'll admit is only a few). Honestly, you're overreacting if you have to say the "soul" is gone when you replace the voices. Hey, let's try another example if you're so determined to have the "original voices" in your self-defined anime. What if a show was re-dubbed in Japanese with a different cast? Is that still anime to you because it's still in Japanese, or is it no longer anime because the "originality" of the other voices is gone? Or, another: What if the Japanese cast for a show just happens to all be fluent in English and they retain their roles for an English dub of the show? Is it still anime to you because it has the same voices, or is it not because the spoken language is English? Let's go just one step further. What if a western/European cast who's fluent in Japanese are chosen as the original cast for an anime series? Is it anime or not? Hell, as mdo7 pointed out, is Afro Samurai even anime to you? You may just be in it for the story and the animation but I'm in it for the whole "anime" experience. And I feel your definition for such an "experience" to be valid is misguided and overly purist. Also, I'd like you to state which of the 9 examples I mentioned would be anime, by your standards. Saying "Any of the ones made by the Japanese are anime." is meaningless because it's not a black and white issue and all of those would at least be part Japanese. If it's not stated, the story is the same and the translation would be faithful. Sure thing. 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, and 9 I'd consider anime. All were created in Japan by the Japanese. Since you seem to think that the animation is the only thing that defines anime, what about picture dramas? Not a whole lot of animation going on there, just a whole lot of talking and the thing that defines picture dramas is the dialog. I guess that's not anime, since it doesn't have enough unique frames? I really have no opinion on that. I could see it going either way, because you're right, there's possibly no actual animation involved. If I were forced to pick one way or the other, I'd probably say they are not anime (granted it is purely pictures with 0% animation). It would be like calling a slideshow a movie, or like calling manga anime. But again, I can see it going either way. I'll agree that without video it's not anime and that without audio/dialog it's still anime. If you can say this, how can you argue dubs to not be anime? Yeah, I know I've sort of taken this out of context, but the rest of what you said doesn't really hurt my point. You're saying now it can still be anime without audio/dialogue but before you claimed audio was 50% of it. So, which is it? Are silent Japanese animated films anime to you or not? What defines the anime we're currently discussing is audio + video + dialog + story. Don't act like any one of these parts is irrelevant or doesn't define the experience. It's insulting to the entire medium. Relevancy to the definition and relevancy to the experience are two different things. Don't act like they're the same. Maybe you find you get a better experience out of hearing it in Japanese. Cool. I can understand that. But your experience does not define what it is according to your liking. It won't be what you want it to be just because that's what you want it to be. Anime is animation; that is what the word means. Outside of Japan, it refers simply to Japanese animation. zensouren said: It's from the main series not the Unlimited Blade Works movie. I don't think that would be the case though (the matching of the lip flaps). What would've changed to extend their speaking animation? The spell chant is in English for the Japanese version. The video said "UBW" so I guessed it was the movie. As for your question: I don't know. Maybe they just thought it sounded cooler. Like I said, I haven't seen the series in a long time, so I don't remember enough to be able to judge. |
supersonic124 said: i shouldnt need a phd in japanese history to watch an anime, why cant they just put in june of 1983 or w/e instead of showa 58 fansubbers need to stop being a bunch of fucking weeaboos, an offical translation would just put june of 1983 or something That's understandable. I guess I should've reworded what I wanted to say. Let me try this way: In that particular scene she looks up at the calendar. Whichever fansub you're watching would have some text stating that she "adds, subtracts, calculates, etc". What's confusing me right now is that "something" your mentioning after the 1983. Redfoxoffire said: The video said "UBW" so I guessed it was the movie. As for your question: I don't know. Maybe they just thought it sounded cooler. Like I said, I haven't seen the series in a long time, so I don't remember enough to be able to judge. That was my mistake, I should label the videos if they can conflict like that heh. I completely spaced about the movie. |
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kuroshiroi said: Animation does not anime make, You do know that " anime" in Japanese means cartoons? in japan they use that word for anything animated, like a jap dubbed episode of the simpsons would be considered "anime" in japan. zensouren said: That's understandable. I guess I should've reworded what I wanted to say. Let me try this way: In that particular scene she looks up at the calendar. Whichever fansub you're watching would have some text stating that she "adds, subtracts, calculates, etc". What's confusing me right now is that "something" your mentioning after the 1983. The fansub didnt have any text it just had the character saying "omg showa 58 i gotta add up the showas because of world war 2 or something blah blah" i turned it off at that point because i got fucking sick of it, im sure an r1 company could come up with something to write instead of being lazy and writing "showa 58 " |
supersonic124May 8, 2010 4:09 PM
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| Which group(s) of fansubbers is causing you to hate them so much? I don't see where this is coming from. Would you prefer "Good morning. Today the railway line that runs from Tokyo to Nagoya stopped." knowing that the Chuo Line is that railway line from the note? "Today is Grandpa Jipang's one and only Scattering of Pounded Rice Cakes Race day." |
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zensouren said: Which group(s) of fansubbers is causing you to hate them so much? I don't see where this is coming from. Would you prefer "Good morning. Today the railway line that runs from Tokyo to Nagoya stopped." knowing that the Chuo Line is that railway line from the note? "Today is Grandpa Jipang's one and only Scattering of Pounded Rice Cakes Race day." I dont hate fansubbers i just get pissed when people say they are superior to dubs. DUbs and subs are on the same level, they both have their drawbacks and advantages/ Why cant they just write rice cakes race day instead of mochi maki and why cant they just say the c train stopped instead of chuooo line. Do we really need to know where the train goes? Are we riding the train? Is it a crucial element of the story ? NO its unnecessary and distracting, a good translation is one where you dont know its there, kindof like a dub or a professional sub translation imagine if you were watching a movie and it was like this: http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/787/speed1y.jpg people would be fucking pissed but to sub fans its A-OK and think its superior to a dub. Dubs and subs are on the same level and that's that. |
supersonic124May 8, 2010 4:45 PM
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supersonic124 said: I dont hate fansubbers i just get pissed when people say they are superior to dubs. DUbs and subs are on the same level, they both have their drawbacks and advantages/ Why cant they just write rice cakes race day instead of mochi maki and why cant they just say the c train stopped instead of chuooo line. Do we really need to know where the train goes? Are we riding the train? Is it a crucial element of the story ? NO its unnecessary and distracting, a good translation is one where you dont know its there, kindof like a dub or a professional sub translation imagine if you were watching a movie and it was like this: http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/787/speed1y.jpg people would be fucking pissed but to sub fans its A-OK and think its superior to a dub. Dubs and subs are on the same level and that's that. You say you don't hate them but it seems like you do. You've been showing examples of bad translation jobs and even made an overexaggerated image. That's a very harsh and incorrect statement to say that it's okay to sub fans. I'm not saying subs or dubs are superior to one another either. But honestly, take a look at this: Aironic said: y r u ppl arguin whn evrey1 noes dat subs r da bst? itss stewpd and maks u gays lok lik retireds jus agre to dissagre wit ech over ad mov on m8s... Do you take someone that types like that on purpose seriously? |
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zensouren said: You say you don't hate them but it seems like you do. You've been showing examples of bad translation jobs thats what all the sub only fans have been doing for the past 76 pages showing videos of dubs and using bad examples, i figure i'd do the same zensouren said: You've been showing examples of bad translation jobs and even made an overexaggerated image overexaggerated? really? if anything i felt i wasn't exaggerating enough: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6628/capturevl.jpg these assholes are even putting their names over the people who actually made the show: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/434/capture2po.jpg those are real fansubs ^^^^ and its not a bad translation either its just fucking distracting and pretty much unwatchable, and its not just these animes i see stuff like that all the time in almost every fansubbed anime |
supersonic124May 8, 2010 5:10 PM
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supersonic124 said: thats what all the sub only fans have been doing for the past 76 pages showing videos of dubs and using bad examples, i figure i'd do the same overexaggerated? really? if anything i felt i wasn't exaggerating enough: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6628/capturevl.jpg these assholes are even putting their names over the people who actually made the show: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/434/capture2po.jpg those are real fansubs ^^^^ and its not a bad translation either its just fucking distracting and pretty much unwatchable, and its not just these animes i see stuff like that all the time in almost every fansubbed anime So are you for or against fansubs in general or just the specific ones that you see? And for dub haters.. well just take a look at this: (Yes I know it's digimon but it will show something... just take a listen to the black knight one) Can't really imagine a knight like him would have such a...voice... |
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zensouren said: supersonic124 said: thats what all the sub only fans have been doing for the past 76 pages showing videos of dubs and using bad examples, i figure i'd do the same overexaggerated? really? if anything i felt i wasn't exaggerating enough: http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6628/capturevl.jpg these assholes are even putting their names over the people who actually made the show: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/434/capture2po.jpg those are real fansubs ^^^^ and its not a bad translation either its just fucking distracting and pretty much unwatchable, and its not just these animes i see stuff like that all the time in almost every fansubbed anime So are you for or against fansubs in general or just the specific ones that you see? And for dub haters.. well just take a look at this: (Yes I know it's digimon but it will show something... just take a listen to the black knight one) Can't really imagine a knight like him would have such a...voice... I'm not against fansubs, I'm just saying their not the "holy grail" of anime that everyone makes them out to be. If people gave dubs a chance they would realize that they can actually be pretty decent and sometimes in rare cases( black lagoon, cowboy bebop) even be better then the original Japanese. |
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Onibokusu said: So, is it bad that I like both equally? Well, I'll always take an official subtitle track over an fansub subtitle track, for obvious reasons. It shouldn't be bad, your getting the same story that you would no matter what you watch. Only rarely do the dubs change the story drastically and give you something completely different than the original. supersonic124 said: I'm not against fansubs, I'm just saying their not the "holy grail" of anime that everyone makes them out to be. If people gave dubs a chance they would realize that they can actually be pretty decent and sometimes in rare cases( black lagoon, cowboy bebop) even be better then the original Japanese. I have to say that after watching DBZ in both Japanese and English a long time ago, I prefer the English because the voices seem more fitting. There are times though when you see both and you just wonder what better voice actor they could've gotten for those specific parts. |
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zensouren said: I have to say that after watching DBZ in both Japanese and English a long time ago, I prefer the English because the voices seem more fitting. Yeah, they decided to use the same voice actor they had for child Goku for adult Goku. Horrible choice. |
kuroshiroi said: ]Animation does not anime make, just like movies are not just moving pictures. Sound is 50%, video is 50% and the story is lodged somewhere in between. Any audio/visual medium relies on the two equally to make a convincing experience. Change one factor and you've got a different experience, a different thing. I really feel one is simply watching cartoons when watching dubbed anime; the soul is gone. You may just be in it for the story and the animation but I'm in it for the whole "anime" experience. Whoa whoa, back up just a bit here. Watching a story is 50% audio and 50% video with a story lodged in between, but the soul is lost if you can understand the language being spoken? So there's only soul when you have to read the story? |
You can find me on IRC. |
| Whatever the original creator does is always the right answer. If something was made in Japanese with Japanese voices then that's anime. If the anime producers made it in English, that's anime. If the anime producers re-dub it in Japanese, that's anime. If a licensor dubs it, that's not anime. If the anime producer decides that there should be no dialog, that's anime. So Afro Samurai is anime because it was always meant to be in English and silent anime are anime because they were always meant to be silent. Original intent is king. As for the whole cartoons = anime argument, there's no point in arguing since there's no right or wrong answer. Hence the usage of the word "feel". I feel like one is watching cartoons, i.e. not anime, and I feel the anime has lost its soul when you dub it just like I feel it would lose its soul if you somehow mess with the story or the animation, i.e. replacing guns with walkie talkies. Redfoxoffire said: Overly purist? I like my entertainment as intact as possible. If that makes me a purist, then fine, I'm a purist. You say it like it's a bad thing. For the record, I'd prefer it if all movies and shows were to be dubbed in whichever language is dominant in the area they take place in, like Mel Gibson is doing and like Quentin Tarantino did for Basterds. If that's not possible, whatever works for the original producers is fine by me.You may just be in it for the story and the animation but I'm in it for the whole "anime" experience. And I feel your definition for such an "experience" to be valid is misguided and overly purist. Redfoxoffire said: So Japanese Simpsons would be anime. Interesting. And apparently butchering the story is also a-ok as long as the animation is Japanese. I don't see how you can call yourself an anime fan with that view point. Guess you just like being entertained and don't care for original intent or original story. Why do even care about this discussion then?Also, I'd like you to state which of the 9 examples I mentioned would be anime, by your standards. Saying "Any of the ones made by the Japanese are anime." is meaningless because it's not a black and white issue and all of those would at least be part Japanese. If it's not stated, the story is the same and the translation would be faithful. Sure thing. 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, and 9 I'd consider anime. All were created in Japan by the Japanese. Redfoxoffire said: At which point does it become animation then? When the characters move their mouth? When the still images on screen move? When the characters change positions?Since you seem to think that the animation is the only thing that defines anime, what about picture dramas? Not a whole lot of animation going on there, just a whole lot of talking and the thing that defines picture dramas is the dialog. I guess that's not anime, since it doesn't have enough unique frames? I really have no opinion on that. I could see it going either way, because you're right, there's possibly no actual animation involved. If I were forced to pick one way or the other, I'd probably say they are not anime (granted it is purely pictures with 0% animation). It would be like calling a slideshow a movie, or like calling manga anime. But again, I can see it going either way. Redfoxoffire said: Why the hell do you insist on dragging the strict definition of anime = animation into this. It's completely irrelevant since we're discussing anime that necessarily will contain video, audio, dialog and story, otherwise there'd be no need to dub it. If that's your whole angle, anime = animation, there's really no point to this discussion.What defines the anime we're currently discussing is audio + video + dialog + story. Don't act like any one of these parts is irrelevant or doesn't define the experience. It's insulting to the entire medium. Relevancy to the definition and relevancy to the experience are two different things. Don't act like they're the same.Maybe you find you get a better experience out of hearing it in Japanese. Cool. I can understand that. But your experience does not define what it is according to your liking. It won't be what you want it to be just because that's what you want it to be. Anime is animation; that is what the word means. Outside of Japan, it refers simply to Japanese animation. anime = Japanese (animation) anime = Japanese (animation + audio) anime = Japanese (animation + audio + dialog) anime = Japanese (animation + audio + dialog + story) Here are some of the possible combinations for anime, guess which one we're discussing. The experience will contain all of these aspects, not just 1 or 2. @Kuyukly: I just feel that once you start messing with the medium of anime in any way, it loses its soul. This applies to any artform, even books. You may be experiencing something similar but you're definitely not experiencing the same thing. Of course the same applies to subs but it's to a lesser degree than dubs and at least you're not changing the medium. As for your reading question, I really don't understand how you got that from my post. Changing the medium in any way = taking away its soul. |
| I prefer subs because they would help a bit to understand Japanese. For example, thanks to subs, I've learned some useful Japanese phrases, like "Hello", "Are you okay?" and "Would you like please to keep that tentacle off my *ss"... |
| Regs? My driving style, friend, is suitable for all regs, any regs, yesterday's regs, tomorrow's regs, 24 hours a day, 20 times a year. |
kuroshiroi said: Whatever the original creator does is always the right answer. If something was made in Japanese with Japanese voices then that's anime. If the anime producers made it in English, that's anime. If the anime producers re-dub it in Japanese, that's anime. If a licensor dubs it, that's not anime. If the anime producer decides that there should be no dialog, that's anime. So Afro Samurai is anime because it was always meant to be in English and silent anime are anime because they were always meant to be silent. Original intent is king. As for the whole cartoons = anime argument, there's no point in arguing since there's no right or wrong answer. Hence the usage of the word "feel". I feel like one is watching cartoons, i.e. not anime, and I feel the anime has lost its soul when you dub it just like I feel it would lose its soul if you somehow mess with the story or the animation, i.e. replacing guns with walkie talkies. Redfoxoffire said: Overly purist? I like my entertainment as intact as possible. If that makes me a purist, then fine, I'm a purist. You say it like it's a bad thing. For the record, I'd prefer it if all movies and shows were to be dubbed in whichever language is dominant in the area they take place in, like Mel Gibson is doing and like Quentin Tarantino did for Basterds. If that's not possible, whatever works for the original producers is fine by me.You may just be in it for the story and the animation but I'm in it for the whole "anime" experience. And I feel your definition for such an "experience" to be valid is misguided and overly purist. Redfoxoffire said: So Japanese Simpsons would be anime. Interesting. And apparently butchering the story is also a-ok as long as the animation is Japanese. I don't see how you can call yourself an anime fan with that view point. Guess you just like being entertained and don't care for original intent or original story. Why do even care about this discussion then?Also, I'd like you to state which of the 9 examples I mentioned would be anime, by your standards. Saying "Any of the ones made by the Japanese are anime." is meaningless because it's not a black and white issue and all of those would at least be part Japanese. If it's not stated, the story is the same and the translation would be faithful. Sure thing. 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, and 9 I'd consider anime. All were created in Japan by the Japanese. Redfoxoffire said: At which point does it become animation then? When the characters move their mouth? When the still images on screen move? When the characters change positions?Since you seem to think that the animation is the only thing that defines anime, what about picture dramas? Not a whole lot of animation going on there, just a whole lot of talking and the thing that defines picture dramas is the dialog. I guess that's not anime, since it doesn't have enough unique frames? I really have no opinion on that. I could see it going either way, because you're right, there's possibly no actual animation involved. If I were forced to pick one way or the other, I'd probably say they are not anime (granted it is purely pictures with 0% animation). It would be like calling a slideshow a movie, or like calling manga anime. But again, I can see it going either way. Redfoxoffire said: Why the hell do you insist on dragging the strict definition of anime = animation into this. It's completely irrelevant since we're discussing anime that necessarily will contain video, audio, dialog and story, otherwise there'd be no need to dub it. If that's your whole angle, anime = animation, there's really no point to this discussion.What defines the anime we're currently discussing is audio + video + dialog + story. Don't act like any one of these parts is irrelevant or doesn't define the experience. It's insulting to the entire medium. Relevancy to the definition and relevancy to the experience are two different things. Don't act like they're the same.Maybe you find you get a better experience out of hearing it in Japanese. Cool. I can understand that. But your experience does not define what it is according to your liking. It won't be what you want it to be just because that's what you want it to be. Anime is animation; that is what the word means. Outside of Japan, it refers simply to Japanese animation. anime = Japanese (animation) anime = Japanese (animation + audio) anime = Japanese (animation + audio + dialog) anime = Japanese (animation + audio + dialog + story) Here are some of the possible combinations for anime, guess which one we're discussing. The experience will contain all of these aspects, not just 1 or 2. @Kuyukly: I just feel that once you start messing with the medium of anime in any way, it loses its soul. This applies to any artform, even books. You may be experiencing something similar but you're definitely not experiencing the same thing. Of course the same applies to subs but it's to a lesser degree than dubs and at least you're not changing the medium. As for your reading question, I really don't understand how you got that from my post. Changing the medium in any way = taking away its soul. i think your taking anime too seriously its just a bunch of animated cartoons for kids |
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kuroshiroi said: @Kuyukly: I just feel that once you start messing with the medium of anime in any way, it loses its soul. This applies to any artform, even books. You may be experiencing something similar but you're definitely not experiencing the same thing. Of course the same applies to subs but it's to a lesser degree than dubs and at least you're not changing the medium. As for your reading question, I really don't understand how you got that from my post. Changing the medium in any way = taking away its soul. I'd like to debate this further but I don't want to distract you from your debate with Redfox. Also, ganging up on people isn't my style. And I didn't quite get the reading bit from your post, but the vast majority of the community watches subs rather than raws or dubs. Therefore, reading. supersonic124 said: i think your taking anime too seriously its just a bunch of animated cartoons for kids UM. WHAT. >_> |
You can find me on IRC. |
Onibokusu said: kuroshiroi said: -Wall of text- And then it comes down to 'Are you enjoying what you're experiencing?' If a simple thing like a piece of media being dubbed in another language hinders your experience, I'd call you a weaboo, not a fan. A "japanophile". Just like we can experience Japanese anime dubbed in the English language, the Japanese can also enjoy American anime dubbed in the Japanese language. The first person to try and correct a certain word in the last sentence loses. Fine. It's "weeaboo". :3333 |
You can find me on IRC. |
Kuyukly said: Onibokusu said: kuroshiroi said: -Wall of text- And then it comes down to 'Are you enjoying what you're experiencing?' If a simple thing like a piece of media being dubbed in another language hinders your experience, I'd call you a weaboo, not a fan. A "japanophile". Just like we can experience Japanese anime dubbed in the English language, the Japanese can also enjoy American anime dubbed in the Japanese language. The first person to try and correct a certain word in the last sentence loses. Fine. It's "weeaboo". :3333 Kuyukly said: Onibokusu said: kuroshiroi said: -Wall of text- And then it comes down to 'Are you enjoying what you're experiencing?' If a simple thing like a piece of media being dubbed in another language hinders your experience, I'd call you a weaboo, not a fan. A "japanophile". Just like we can experience Japanese anime dubbed in the English language, the Japanese can also enjoy American anime dubbed in the Japanese language. The first person to try and correct a certain word in the last sentence loses. Fine. It's "weeaboo". :3333 If anything someone using the word weeaboo is being a weeabo themselves since only japs are supposed to use it, kindof like the n word |
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supersonic124 said: If anything someone using the word weeaboo is being a weeabo themselves since only japs are supposed to use it, kindof like the n word ...uh... ...you're kidding, right? |
You can find me on IRC. |
kuroshiroi said: Whatever the original creator does is always the right answer. If something was made in Japanese with Japanese voices then that's anime. If the anime producers made it in English, that's anime. If the anime producers re-dub it in Japanese, that's anime. If a licensor dubs it, that's not anime. If the anime producer decides that there should be no dialog, that's anime. So Afro Samurai is anime because it was always meant to be in English and silent anime are anime because they were always meant to be silent. Original intent is king. I was under the impression you had read up on the previous arguments, but I guess not. I suggest you do so, because I've debunked the "original intent" argument more than once. As for the whole cartoons = anime argument, there's no point in arguing since there's no right or wrong answer. Hence the usage of the word "feel". I feel like one is watching cartoons, i.e. not anime, and I feel the anime has lost its soul when you dub it just like I feel it would lose its soul if you somehow mess with the story or the animation, i.e. replacing guns with walkie talkies. I also feel watching anime is cartoons, no matter what language it's dubbed in (Note: Japanese voices is dubbing as well). Can you guess why? kuroshiroi said: Overly purist? I like my entertainment as intact as possible. If that makes me a purist, then fine, I'm a purist. You say it like it's a bad thing. For the record, I'd prefer it if all movies and shows were to be dubbed in whichever language is dominant in the area they take place in, like Mel Gibson is doing and like Quentin Tarantino did for Basterds. If that's not possible, whatever works for the original producers is fine by me. Being a purist in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It gets annoying when you take it too far, which most sub fans (yourself included) tend to do. By "too far," I mean the reason for this argument, aka proclaiming your way is the only way. kuroshiroi said: So Japanese Simpsons would be anime. Interesting. Yes. Do you disagree? It's not as though a similar thing has never happened before. And apparently butchering the story is also a-ok as long as the animation is Japanese. I never said it would be a good thing (though if you're talking about Ghost Stories, the English dub is supposed to be much better anyway). However, it is still anime. Not all anime is good, after all. I don't see how you can call yourself an anime fan with that view point. Guess you just like being entertained and don't care for original intent or original story. Why do even care about this discussion then? Of course I consider myself an anime fan. What the hell do you think I've been arguing this whole time? Hint: It's still anime even when re-dubbed in English. And again with the original intent crap? Read previous posts, because I don't feel like explaining it again. I want to get back to Haibane Renmei. At which point does it become animation then? When the characters move their mouth? When the still images on screen move? When the characters change positions? Well, like I said, I could see it going either way. Also, I'm not the person who can draw the line, but if I had to guess, I'd say whenever some sort of fluid motion of the characters is involved. Sure, it might be seen as arbitrary, but I don't think you can get a clear definition on this. Why the hell do you insist on dragging the strict definition of anime = animation into this. Because you can't seem to accept it. It's completely irrelevant since we're discussing anime that necessarily will contain video, audio, dialog and story, otherwise there'd be no need to dub it. If that's your whole angle, anime = animation, there's really no point to this discussion. Yes, it will (likely) contain those. However, how is that relevant to defining what anime is? Anime does not have to contain audio, dialogue, or story, they only add to the experience. And since it doesn't need them in the first place, why, then, should you be able to draw some line of rules on how they are allowed to be added to make it stay definable as anime? Here are some of the possible combinations for anime, guess which one we're discussing. The experience will contain all of these aspects, not just 1 or 2. Redfoxoffire said: Relevancy to the definition and relevancy to the experience are two different things. Don't act like they're the same. |
Redfoxoffire said: kuroshiroi said: Whatever the original creator does is always the right answer. If something was made in Japanese with Japanese voices then that's anime. If the anime producers made it in English, that's anime. If the anime producers re-dub it in Japanese, that's anime. If a licensor dubs it, that's not anime. If the anime producer decides that there should be no dialog, that's anime. So Afro Samurai is anime because it was always meant to be in English and silent anime are anime because they were always meant to be silent. Original intent is king. I was under the impression you had read up on the previous arguments, but I guess not. I suggest you do so, because I've debunked the "original intent" argument more than once. As for the whole cartoons = anime argument, there's no point in arguing since there's no right or wrong answer. Hence the usage of the word "feel". I feel like one is watching cartoons, i.e. not anime, and I feel the anime has lost its soul when you dub it just like I feel it would lose its soul if you somehow mess with the story or the animation, i.e. replacing guns with walkie talkies. I also feel watching anime is cartoons, no matter what language it's dubbed in (Note: Japanese voices is dubbing as well). Can you guess why? kuroshiroi said: Overly purist? I like my entertainment as intact as possible. If that makes me a purist, then fine, I'm a purist. You say it like it's a bad thing. For the record, I'd prefer it if all movies and shows were to be dubbed in whichever language is dominant in the area they take place in, like Mel Gibson is doing and like Quentin Tarantino did for Basterds. If that's not possible, whatever works for the original producers is fine by me. Being a purist in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It gets annoying when you take it too far, which most sub fans (yourself included) tend to do. By "too far," I mean the reason for this argument, aka proclaiming your way is the only way. kuroshiroi said: So Japanese Simpsons would be anime. Interesting. Yes. Do you disagree? It's not as though a similar thing has never happened before. And apparently butchering the story is also a-ok as long as the animation is Japanese. I never said it would be a good thing (though if you're talking about Ghost Stories, the English dub is supposed to be much better anyway). However, it is still anime. Not all anime is good, after all. I don't see how you can call yourself an anime fan with that view point. Guess you just like being entertained and don't care for original intent or original story. Why do even care about this discussion then? Of course I consider myself an anime fan. What the hell do you think I've been arguing this whole time? Hint: It's still anime even when re-dubbed in English. And again with the original intent crap? Read previous posts, because I don't feel like explaining it again. I want to get back to Haibane Renmei. At which point does it become animation then? When the characters move their mouth? When the still images on screen move? When the characters change positions? Well, like I said, I could see it going either way. Also, I'm not the person who can draw the line, but if I had to guess, I'd say whenever some sort of fluid motion of the characters is involved. Sure, it might be seen as arbitrary, but I don't think you can get a clear definition on this. Why the hell do you insist on dragging the strict definition of anime = animation into this. Because you can't seem to accept it. It's completely irrelevant since we're discussing anime that necessarily will contain video, audio, dialog and story, otherwise there'd be no need to dub it. If that's your whole angle, anime = animation, there's really no point to this discussion. Yes, it will (likely) contain those. However, how is that relevant to defining what anime is? Anime does not have to contain audio, dialogue, or story, they only add to the experience. And since it doesn't need them in the first place, why, then, should you be able to draw some line of rules on how they are allowed to be added to make it stay definable as anime? Here are some of the possible combinations for anime, guess which one we're discussing. The experience will contain all of these aspects, not just 1 or 2. Redfoxoffire said: Relevancy to the definition and relevancy to the experience are two different things. Don't act like they're the same. people need to stop getting so damn complicated and stuff about cartoons that 8 yr old Japanese kids watch |
supersonic124May 8, 2010 10:48 PM
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| Subbed 99.9% of time. Dubbed the .1% of the time the Japanese audio is terrible and the English dub actually is decent (yes, it exists). |
supersonic124 said: a r1 dvd would never do a half assed translation like that yeah everybody makes mistakes every now and then BUT the fucking fansubbers leave jap words in the translation ALL THE TIME instead of uh...... translating them: Except you could, you know, give some examples of real mistranslations instead of mixing correct ones in. http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/6987/55636948.jpg I can understand your complaint. It doesn't seem like the organization is specifically Yakuza, but rather any crime organization, so the Japanese name is unnecessary. That wouldn't be the case in a Yakuza story, though. http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5065/56083043.jpg Name of culturally significant object that has no equivalent in English left in -> correct translation. Shouldn't be different in a book, really. http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8594/34420194.jpg I don't think there's a way to make the dialogue fluid while keeping the information here, but the choice of using the Japanese word was probably wrong. http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/6445/45776403.jpg Proper names should be left in. That goes for places, rivers and so on, unless there's a proper name in your language. |
 And on the edge of sanity I stumble and fall. |
| i like both and i think people should definatly stop complaining about how subbed is better on anime vids on line its so irritating its like if you like sub so much why you watching it in dub and if it bugs u that they only have it in dub then go out and buy the dvds cheapos. i have my whole arguement on what i think on dub vs sub in my blog :) |
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