| hiii everyone, so the other thread i made about "anime tourists" made me think, thank you for giving insights and i wanted to get into some civil and well-put discussion with you guys about this certain topic. what i want to ask is that, certain criticism from people (doesn't matter who they, could be americans, europeans, "tourists", "veterans", etc) seems VALID- like distaste around incestual tropes, paedophilia, etc. whereas other criticisms does seem like an IMPOSITION like body types about women, cliche anime tropes, romantic progression etc also does it matter who the whole CRITICISM is coming from ? i am not stating a fact, i am asking and wondering so help me with your insights. |
 ✮ slumbering arc |
| constructive criticisms are better than destructive criticisms imposing is part of the power struggle so while its normal i can see that it can be uncomfortable or even worsens us vs them mentality but then the point of gatekeeping is us vs them ways anyway |
| A valid criticism is when you accept it for what it is in it's genre, themes and intended audience and intended reactions and judge it on that scale with a few rare exceptions. Imposition is complaining about it being what it is meant to be in the first place and wanting it changed or banned or outlawed or otherwise just being a thorn in the side of everyone else just quietly enjoying it. Valid criticisms more often come from people who are more level headed and enjoy wider varieties of stories and visuals and able to understand context and nuance while imposition nearly always comes from more emotionally unstable and overreactive people among them political or religious zealots and also bigots to name a few. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| This sounds like another doomed "debate," where different people will call different things "valid" or "imposing." What you find "distasteful," I expect a lot of people here will defend to the bitter end. Personally I believe any criticism is valid. Other people are free to agree or disagree with that criticism. You can't expect everyone anyone to agree with your criticism, and you can't throw a temper tantrum when people don't agree with your criticism. |
| Criticism is never valid. Enjoyment of anime is 100% subjective. Personal preference. Not valid criticism. |
| Again why would people care about others opinion valid or not and stop their enjoyment. LET THEM LIKE WHAT THEY LIKE You have no right to shame others into disliking that. |
| No. If we really boil down to it, it shouldn't matter who the critic is. What matters is what they're saying. Normatively, we're going to pay attention to where they're coming from anyway because it can be a useful and efficient social function for deriving underlying motives and perspectives, but we've coined aD hOmInEm as a fallacy for a reason. We should be able to adopt a well-rounded philosophy to justify what we enjoy, something much stronger than "oh, well, you are / are not part of group XYZ". @traed A valid criticism is when you accept it for what it is in it's genre, themes and intended audience and intended reactions and judge it on that scale with a few rare exceptions. I'm sympathetic with where you're coming from. But why? The luxury of excluding a 'few rare exceptions' seems like a pretty arbitrary and self-serving qualifier, isn't it? Why shouldn't someone be able to deride an entire genre and its existence -- if what they're saying has a point? |
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| The importance lies more in how themes and subjects are depicted, carried and given value by the narrative. Whether or not *insert specific subject here* is present to begin with has no critical merit, and only serves as a filter for those who are either repulsed or intrigued by such topics. Key questions you could ask yourself when assessing the value of such themes in the story include: • Does this scene have any future (potentially retroactive) implications towards the proceedings of the plot? • Have the characters set a precedent, however subtle, for their actions and outlooks throughout the story? • Do these themes present new perspectives, layers of intrigue and a fresh plot element to the narrative? • Are the scenes directed with enough skill that the theme is afforded a detectable, yet controlled level of allure? Otherwise, if the theme is intended to evoke horror from the viewer, was the scene's build-up of suspense and potential viscerality sufficiently immersive? • Does how the characters address the presence of such themes grant them interesting personality traits that add further nuance to their existing characterisation? • Are themes like this used to provide a natural and nonintrusive instance of tonal variety to the anime? Not all of these questions are expected to be constantly, simultaneously relevant during every second of the watch, but a viewer may become cognisant of them at certain times, reflecting on the "answers" internally. Obviously anime that are entirely humorous in intent will also implore different questions, in line with their individual priorities. |
  ｲ乇刀乇乃尺ﾑ乇 ╔⏤═⏤╝   ╚⏤═⏤╗☽ Shaded Horizon ☾ |
Reply to perseii
This sounds like another doomed "debate," where different people will call different things "valid" or "imposing." What you find "distasteful," I expect a lot of people here will defend to the bitter end.
Personally I believe any criticism is valid. Other people are free to agree or disagree with that criticism. You can't expect everyone anyone to agree with your criticism, and you can't throw a temper tantrum when people don't agree with your criticism.
Personally I believe any criticism is valid. Other people are free to agree or disagree with that criticism. You can't expect everyone anyone to agree with your criticism, and you can't throw a temper tantrum when people don't agree with your criticism.
| @perseii I wholly agree. All discourse around media (like anime) serves the purpose of facilitating human connections. Unless we're dogpiling on certain archetypes of people we don't like, which isn't really discourse around media or even a certain type of conduct at all, it's all "valid." I think it's more useful to adhere to some kind of spectrum falling within ""more subjective"" and ""more objective"". If we're airing complaints or talking about a piece of media (for example, a certain anime), we can agree to disagree on things that fall much more toward the subjective end of the spectrum -- like "i don't like this genre" or "i don't get this humor at all". The discourse around the subjective disagreements can still be interesting and telling, but should serve more the purpose of facilitating human connections (oh i like this, why don't you like it? interesting!) than advancing some kind of winnable argument. I think a good portion of ""discourse"" falls toward this end, whereby the people's preferences are no better or worse than anyone else's, but are often expressed or guarded in a way that entangles people's passions as to make their discourse totally dull and insubstantial. One might have something to say about why they enjoy shounens more than SOLs, but you're highly unlikely to have anything substantial to express beyond the specifics of what you subjectively enjoy. Like, I personally don't enjoy a lot of shounens because I frankly get bored of a lot of the fighting sequences you see in them. But what value is there from grand-standing that preference? Or deriding it? Not a whole lot. There's a couple of areas that I think are more toward the objective side of the spectrum, like the consistency of a plot, presence of technical aspects relating to animation and sound choices. I think in these areas, there's more of a discernible reality. Maybe not totally, but much more of one. And somewhere in-between "more subjective" and "more objective", sometimes including a nebulous mixture of both, there's a whooooole lot more |
GreatAideJan 1, 5:38 AM
| |
| It depends on whether or not the person criticising something is up against a fan of said thing, in which case of course his opinion doesn't mean shit. |
| Criticism of fiction is valid if it's expressed as "I dislike this" Criticism of fiction is imposition if it's expressed as "This shouldn't exist" |
DesuMaiden said: Nobody resembles me physically because I don't even physically exist. |
GreatAide said: I'm sympathetic with where you're coming from. But why? The luxury of excluding a 'few rare exceptions' seems like a pretty arbitrary and self-serving qualifier, isn't it? Why shouldn't someone be able to deride an entire genre and its existence -- if what they're saying has a point? I only added that for a very specific case I should have described but couldn't find the words at the moment. Criticizing the entertainment value as if doing so objectively when it's just a subjective view and others enjoy it. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
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