Hibike! Euphonium 3 Episode 12 Discussion

@FireFistYK Well... seems that Takeda-sensei is okay with the changes so I'm glad we won't have another "Sexy Tanaka-san" case.
Not that I agree with what KyoAni did, but oh well.

@theprussian Is it? I think the tweet from the author more like a damage control kind of thing, Some have justified the decisions going on in this episode with their own way of logics which is fine but if I'm being honest, this drama is clearly manufactured to bait for emotional height. If I'm being honest, the author is partly to blame because he/she included this stupid hypocritical character into the roster and kyoani take advantage from it and she even dressed as a victim in this whole fiasco which clearly untrue. Saying stupid ass like just want to play with others but underhandedly guilt trip everyone and in audition doesn't pull her punches.


Yes, and Kumiko need to pay for it especiailly in her 1st audition. That's why I don't like this idea that she got away with this scot-free and the writing even painted as she is the victim in all of this and even got a very good payoff after being "unintentionally manipulative" for a whole semester or 2. "HONEST TO MUSIC" just doesn't really cut it and does not explained why she's harassing Kumiko with that question even though she clearly got the answer she wants every time she asked about it. This is bad writing. Let's not even get into how Taki suddenly make a whole ass audition just for Euphonium soli just to run away from his responsibility of owning up to his choice.



It's not. Kanade already explained in ep 11. Basically, saying that if situation is reversed Kumiko will not ask those questions or somewhere along those lines. They just come up with whatever reason to justify Mayu and added the bait of emotional past that she had and hope all is forgotten.

She clearly did *not* get the answer she was looking for, which was "I want to play the solo." Kumiko stubbornly refused to give her that answer, so she kept pestering Kumiko. If Kumiko had said that, Mayu would have dropped out, no questions asked.

I actually am not defending Taki. But, Taki also owned up to his failures ("I still have a lot to learn, don't I?"). As I've mentioned before, he's actually a pretty inexperienced teacher, and Kumiko actually proved a little more competent than him in this episode. BUT... I don't watch this anime to see perfect people, I watch this anime to see "human" people, and it does deliver on that.

I have my criticisms. I do think the drama in this episode was a little forced. But the scenes it gave us were so good that I can overlook that.

if episode 12 were to suggest or as per you said as far as she is "honest to music" goes. She already got the answer the 1st or 2nd time she asked this question which is merit-based. Btw, Kumiko is a president, she cannot allowed that to happened, the rumours might get circulated if she were to asked Mayu to dropped it and the respect people have to her will be gone. that's where Mayu as an only member don't or pretend to not understand Kumiko's dilemma and keep shoving the question to her face. That's where the manipulative part lies. That's why I'm outrage because even at this point Kumiko still care enough about this girl feelings to apologize but she, probably as you said unintentionally manipulative didn't recognize it as wrong thing to do and did not said a word of apology.

Nah, that's not failure by any metrics, that's just him realising that Kumiko have a good idea or at least better idea than what he proposed. I don't know about you but my untrained ear can hear the different in the music played or distinctness, why Taki who probably an expert deemed that these distinct music need another whole ass audition for it? Is none other than he don't want to choose and be blamed for it. Every damn person put a whole lot burden on Kumiko this season to solve everything from that Mayu fiasco and Even after the audition she's the one who reassured everybody of audition's result. Surprising she had not break down or depressed yet if "human" people and not perfect people is the one you want to see.

All I can see, they used Kumiko for what they think is burdensome for them to solved and cast her out after she already lose her usefulness.

I'm a trained musician. I voted for #2. #1 did sound a little more precise to me, which is why I think she was seen as "better", while #2 was warmer. Precise doesn't win over crowds, but it does win gold. But the chemistry between Kumiko and Reina was clear.

Anyway, I think it is a little more complex than that, and I think Asuka kind of pointed out why in Ep. 10. "Taki and the other kid are kind of stuck too". Taki is in a very unenviable position - there is no way he did not know about the discontent that was threatening to tear the group apart, and he was probably seeing a repeat of the solo auditions in season 1 between Kaori and Reina playing out again before his eyes - but he was, as Asuka said, stuck. he couldn't take a side without alienating (literally half, as we find out) half of the band. So he decided that the best course of action (and he said this himself, in not so many words) was to let the band themselves choose. He didn't necessarily cause the problem, but he had to walk a tightrope, because if he had made even one misstep it would have ripped the band apart. He is the authority figure, he can't afford to show weakness in the face of that kind of high school drama. And he said himself he tends to be a bit cold in these situations.

I think he deliberately chose Mayu and Kumiko and held separate auditions so that whatever happens, he can't be blamed for it, and the band has to work out their decision amongst themselves. Is that the easy way out? Maybe. It strikes me as a sign of his inexperience that blind auditions never seemed to occur to him. I loved how they animated his moment of realization, you could almost see him going "shimatta, kore wa doushite omoimasen deshita ka?" (crap, why didn't I think of that?) You mentioned at some point that this was *only* for the euphoniums - was there that kind of drama for the clarinets or the trumpet? No, ALL of the band drama was centered around the euphos. I can't imagine him going through all the trouble for groups where the outcome wasn't at all in doubt and one of the contenders wasn't a highly popular president. He could at the least have explained his decision, but that's not something that Japanese authority figures do. Also, We should be careful not to see what happened through a western lens. Taki is in *charge*, and all that discontent and drama, while somewhat normal for an American high school, is really a little out of the ordinary in Japanese society - at least for it to be that *blatant*.

Anyway, I'm not going to convince you, and I'm not really trying, tbh. I know that, as Kanade said, the frustration is entirely separate from everything else. But I at least hope I've gotten across how complicated this characterization is and it's not really something that lends itself to simplistic analysis.

Or maybe I'm overthinking, as I tend to do with things that lend themselves to it.

@lycoping Yes, you just explained what I wrote but in detailed manner and that's why I said, he's being this incompetent as per you said put a lot more burden to Kumiko, and Kumiko had to bear the brunt of the situation due to his incompetent. She failed and outvoted. No time to grief had to put a smile to reassured other students, what kind of teacher is he? Not only him where is Reina or Shuichi? That's why when you said is real person and not perfect person portrayed, I disagree. Because Kumiko's self sacrifice is not real at all without her breaking down due to it.

What do you think happened in the last two minutes of this episode?

Reina broke - but so did Kumiko. She broke, exactly as you said she would have. That's one of the things that made it so powerful.

@lycoping Yes, She cried but it's more grief about not chosen for the soli and not fulfilling the promise, and she still basically blamed herself but anyone else for this matter she also come up with twisted reason like hesitation in sound or whatever to justify her losing and self-blaming. Refused to blame Reina which broke the promise first and take full blame for anything which means she still didn't recognize self-sacrifice that she made. It became so incredibly jarring instead of moving because she's so hung up on blaming herself for everything and anything for this season. If anything I can get from that scene, she need mental health and medical check up.

Is that a real person to you?

Partly. Also having failed to stand shoulder to shoulder with the friend she loves. Point being, she did break, and having had a few times when I've been about that inconsolable myself, it's kind of realistic. You're fine and happy and doing great... right up until you're not. The way she behaved (keeping it inside and looking out for the collective first) is very Japanese and we might not really understand that mindset. It's not always a positive one, but it's 100% Japanese. That she was able to let that out in front of Reina is a Big Deal. (and vice versa)

Anyway... I'm interested to see what they do with the next episode. I don't think Kumiko's and Reina's relationship arc is fully closed off yet, and I'm not convinced the audition arc is fully closed off yet either.

Thanks for the civil conversation, I'm going to watch some anime and study Japanese.

We were all Kanade this episode.

But nah, man. KyoAni sure screwed up big time with this outcome. They really went against the source material and made Kumiko lose to someone who only had like two minutes of characterization throughout 12 episodes. Not to mention someone who wasn't even a better musician than Kumiko, as many characters stated throughout the season.
And all for the sake of some meh "realism" and forced drama? And the author even agreed to this change? Man, imagine being so insecure you can't defend your own work when someone comes to you with such stupid plot twist smh.
What a way to throw a project of almost ten years to the trash bin, huh?

Well... so what now? What's the point of them winning the Nationals after this? Are we really gonna get a 3-4 minute long solo sequence between Reina and Kuroe, the Eupho NPC?

And also, Taki... way to go, man. You really threw a whole ass audition and put all the pressure onto a teenage girl to give the decisive vote just because you couldn't choose when it was needed. What a way to run away from your responsibilities, huh? Teacher?

We were all Kanade this episode.

But nah, man. KyoAni sure screwed up big time with this outcome. They really went against the source material and made Kumiko lose to someone who only had like two minutes of characterization throughout 12 episodes. Not to mention someone who wasn't even a better musician than Kumiko, as many characters stated throughout the season.
And all for the sake of some meh "realism" and forced drama? And the author even agreed to this change? Man, imagine being so insecure you can't defend your own work when someone comes to you with such stupid plot twist smh.
What a way to throw a project of almost ten years to the trash bin, huh?

Well... so what now? What's the point of them winning the Nationals after this? Are we really gonna get a 3-4 minute long solo sequence between Reina and Kuroe, the Eupho NPC?

And also, Taki... way to go, man. You really threw a whole ass audition and put all the pressure onto a teenage girl to give the decisive vote just because you couldn't choose when it was needed. What a way to run away from your responsibilities, huh? Teacher?

I would watch that. I'd love to see Kumiko as the advisor, like Taki, with a whole different set of protagonists. As long as they don't do what love live did and completely rehash the entire plot with minor differences, I think that would be a great story.

@Marknnz the proposal and change was made by Hanada, who also wrote A place further than the universe

We were all Kanade this episode.

But nah, man. KyoAni sure screwed up big time with this outcome. They really went against the source material and made Kumiko lose to someone who only had like two minutes of characterization throughout 12 episodes. Not to mention someone who wasn't even a better musician than Kumiko, as many characters stated throughout the season.
And all for the sake of some meh "realism" and forced drama? And the author even agreed to this change? Man, imagine being so insecure you can't defend your own work when someone comes to you with such stupid plot twist smh.
What a way to throw a project of almost ten years to the trash bin, huh?

Well... so what now? What's the point of them winning the Nationals after this? Are we really gonna get a 3-4 minute long solo sequence between Reina and Kuroe, the Eupho NPC?

And also, Taki... way to go, man. You really threw a whole ass audition and put all the pressure onto a teenage girl to give the decisive vote just because you couldn't choose when it was needed. What a way to run away from your responsibilities, huh? Teacher?

That's an interesting observation, I haven't thought of it like that.

I still think the story kind of makes sense, but maybe the anime could've done a better job selling it.

I'm not as confident as you that her "hesitation" was fully dealt with by the time of the audition.

Yes, Kumiko has decided not to pursue music at the highest level. But at the same time, she's aiming to perform the solo at the highest level. I don't see how any person can square these two things easily.

I think the "hesitation" was about whether she is the best player, who has what it takes to play next to Reina, "shoulder-to-shoulder," as she put it. She may have believed that before, that she could reach greater heights if she put her mind to it and worked at it. But this season she's been gradually realizing that's not the case, and that she doesn't even necessarily want that. She still had no intention of giving up and gave the audition her all, but that's not the same thing as believing that she is the best one to play the solo.

Even if she did believe that, I also want to point out that she's made her career decision only recently. It would take time to make peace with that and continue playing with the newfound perspective. She's in a very different headspace now, and it would have been strange if her playing sounded exactly the same as before, and as good as before.

I didn't get the impression that she's 100% committed to whatever career choice she made, anyway. I don't think many high-schoolers are (I definitely wasn't), and this is still Kumiko we're talking about. She's going with a vague gut feeling and kind of "fell into" the decision, and we didn't even see what exactly she wrote in the career form. She's taken the first steps to finding her own path, and that's wonderful, but it would be a stretch to say she's resolved everything and is feeling confident about it.

It is disappointing that Kumiko can't turn the page and make a clean start right away (like an anime character would, if you will), but this series has time and time again been interested in and sympathetic towards characters slowly struggling through their weird little hang-ups, while still mostly remaining who they are.