For those that weren't that impressed with Frieren, I'm curious if it was the dubbed version that put you off.

Frieren was an anime that I thought would be easy to have a dub equally good to the sub since it doesn't need any screaming or emotionally heavy voice acting but it was a total disappointment

I watched subbed and loved it, just tried episode 21 English dubbed and I'm disappointed, only Frieren seems to have a halfway decent VA.

@Zarutaku Unless it's a phenomenal dub, it's wishful thinking that you wouldn't be put off by it after completing the sub.

At the very least, jumping straight into the middle of a series is a terrible idea, you need a fresh start from the beginning.

I watched subbed and thought it was an ok 6-7. I only seen episode 1 so far. I tend not to fall for the idea that animation quality is equal to an anime being quality which is why I dislike A Silent Voice. Frieren is not bad though. I liked the priest character. It may get better if I continue.

@LostSpectre I just tried get samples of most English VAs and episode 21 has a lot. I know it's not possible to judge unbiased, but compared to the original acts there is a significant lack of vocal nuances. There are some English top-class VAs who can keep up with the Japanese, but they are far too expensive for Anime dubbing, in terms of price-performance-ratio the Japanese VAs are unmatched.

Small sample size, but so far almost 19% of dub viewers didn't like Frieren where only about 3% of sub viewers didn't.

It's hard not to imagine the quality of the dub being at least part of this pretty big difference, though of course that's pure speculation.

@nbby You're naivety is showing again if you don't think there's multiple people voting for the worst dub option just to trash dubs.

I've seen/sampled enough dubs to know that this was easily above average in the grand scheme of things, only a few suspect VA's.

@LostSpectre Mhm, there's noise a larger sample size could help iron out, that's why I pointed out how small it is. Still doesn't mean the data's totally invalid.

The experience between dub and sub can almost be like watching two entirely different shows, and we know dubs almost always have a much lower budget and larger obstacles to overcome than the original voice track, so I don't think the outcome of a dubbed version of a show being harder to like by people that generally like dubs is all that big of a jump.

There's a lot of them, almost every interaction really, but one simple example in Frieren where the dub differs is Frieren's (first time?) calling Heiter a "corrupt priest" (around 4 minutes in) and the way it's said. In the original, is said in a jibing yet almost curt way, just a short "corrupt priest." In the dub it's more of a soft yet almost sassily dismissive "I'm not a corrupt priest." So both a problem with the translation and delivery. It may seem small, but conveys a completely different personality for the main character. The surrounding conversation is also very different between the two versions. Same intent, but shapes the character's personality differently, and tends to be more verbose than needed in the dub. Too much focus on localization and lip syncing instead of maintaining the integrity of the characters, IMO.

Both sub and dub can be good. I never understood how none Japanese speakers who aren't even learning Japanese act like sub is always better. You even see this in HSR and GI but that's a different issue since Hoyo is Chinese but people who love Japanese voices go as far as calling pretty much all the HSR and GI English voices trash when they're not. Sure a lot of the time the JP VAs are a step up in quality compared to EN VAs but it's important to not be biased and have the ability to be honest when you hear good EN VAs. To the dub haters name at least one anime where the dub was good so you don't come off as completely biased or ignorant in your opinion. If you don't know any. Look up one and explain what makes it a good dub. At least that way you have a better chance at getting the other side to listen to your reasonings better.

I started with dub and continued with sub only because it was further ahead. now that the sub is finished am going back to rewatch in dub. I don't understand the dub hate, especially on this anime. the voices are good in both. I obviously have preferences between both but its really back and forward or even.

I dont think one is better then the other

@nbby Sure, a dub that has multiple VA's (or a prominent central character) with glaring technical flaws could be harder to enjoy, but as I said, Frieren shouldn't even remotely fall into that category, it's more than sufficient (for a dub) to bring the main cast of characters to life, even if there's bound to be a few characters who have weaker performances or whose voices aren't a good fit, but again, aside from the technical, much of this is largely subjective.

I think your example here sheds a lot of light, people that enjoy dubs aren't worried about small differences such as these or giving the dub characters room to breath a little bit, pending that there's nothing too egregious. While different, I would say that the dub still communicates mock condescension, with no real contempt behind it. I agree that Frieren feels different in the dub, but I'm more concerned with whether it succeeds in its own right compared to being a 1:1 copy.

Frieren practically sounds like a child in the sub, while she sounds like a grown woman in the dub, that alone is a prominent factor.

@nbby Right, and my response is that such things are largely irrelevant when it comes to the people who actually watch dubs, I just get the impression that your mindset isn't necessarily compatible, which is fine. A dub character shouldn't be wildly different in a way that causes narrative inconsistencies, but I see nothing wrong with dub characters having their own unique feel, which from my perspective, is practically inevitable given what is being asked for in a dub. There's nothing wrong with localization, either, as dubs should seek to make the language sound more natural in English, while still preserving the essential meaning.

Anyone who is more concerned with preserving the "integrity" of the original work as it is, should simply continue to watch subs.

@LostSpectre I think you're reading too much into what I mean by "integrity."

Of course some localization is required, as is with any translation. Even the sub translations do this. It's not like watching a sub is somehow giving me a perfect unadulterated version of the original -- I'm reading a translation, and worse, my attention is taken from the visual scene. I just think the dubs often take it way too far, and in the case of Frieren, it was enough that I almost abandoned it until I switched and restarted with subs.

And often I don't think they do just that. Again, I watched Frieren from the start dubbed to begin with. I didn't connect with the characters. As I originally said it was off-putting. I had no idea how they were portrayed in the original at the time.

It wasn't until I gave the show a second chance subbed that I was able to relate to the story. It's purely subjective, but for me, the dubbed performances did not stand on their own merit. It's only after comparing the two that I can come up with some examples that just don't seem right, but this is all after-the-fact. Part of why I wasn't comfortable giving examples -- it's too easy to narrow in on one thing and over-analyze it. I find I prefer the original characterizations, so of course my instinct is to not want to see much drift from that. Could I have been exposed to different portrayals I would have liked just as much, maybe even more? Who knows, but that didn't happen.

(Subs do localize to some extent. Some more than others. Sometimes the subs are pretty different than what's being implied in the original language. And yes, often that's because of space constraints. Kinda similar to how dubs may choose certain lines and delivery more because how it matches the mouth movements rather than how well it helps develop the character. Goes back to "Good dubs are hard to make." I don't envy those that try to do them.)

@nbby

Yeah, that's completely valid.

However, I don't quite view your example as evidence for why you couldn't connect to the characters, originally, merely why the dub is (supposedly) inferior for having deviated or slightly changed the impression/personality of said character. I don't agree that this makes the dub worse, simply different, and it has very little to do with the technicality of the performances, but instead slight artistic freedoms.

So, my conclusion here is that you just didn't vibe with it, which is almost entirely subjective, and not necessarily having anything to do with the quality of the dub itself. The thread reads to me as if the quality of the dub is inferior (or below average) so that's where I was approaching this from, and I was anticipating you giving me examples relating more to clear technical differences in VA ability, to convey proper emotion or context, rather than being related to artistic freedoms.

If that's the case, then there's probably nothing else to talk about, but feel free to correct me if we're not on the same page here.

Personally, I had few "technical" issues, but my main concern with dubs is whether the VA's "work" for me, because they often don't.

(You're right, some subs are much more localized [probably CR] while others feel like an unofficial webnovel translation)

Dub is total garbage. I hate all dubs, but this one is way worse and I'm 100% convinced, that anyone who praises it is simply out of touch. It gave me an actual fight or flight response after I heard Freiren sounding like a bored granny.

@LostSpectre All of it is subjective, even "technical" faults you could find, unless we're talking plot holes, etc., that are created in the dub that didn't exist in the sub.

Other than simply not liking the voices and the delivery, the real fault I see in this dub comes down to the writing. In some cases, the dialog gets all splainy, the opposite of what I enjoy about Frieren over some other anime. It seems to spend more words instead of simply letting context and the visual medium speak. That's part of what I was trying to point out with the simple "corrupt priest" vs "I'm not a corrupt priest." How wordy dialog in some anime series can be is kind of a pet-peeve of mine. Even the monologs in Frieren seem to drone on less than others. But, IMO, the English dub puts a bit of that bloat back in. Again, all retrospectively trying to figure out what rubbed me the wrong way.

Nah, I don't that it is good decision to cast someone who seems to be in their 60s based on her tone of voice just because character is 1k years old, despite character acting childish and looking rather youthful.

There are many such cases in dubs, but prople keep using this one as an example, because of how obviously in the face it was forced, outrageous and VA's infamous doubling down, when someone questioned her during the Q& There is another eqample of dub writers of Lovely Complex openly bragging about how they despise it and how they would want to fix it.
Many such cases.
Overall, people do not want to risk an anime equivalent of Russian roulette by risking that they'll be bombarded by leftist propaganda disguised as entertainment, because someone decided to shoehorn their insecurity. It is clear that vast majority of English anime VAs are just straight up terrible people and people for not want to support them.

BUT

This problem is many times more prevalent in localizations of Japanese media as a whole, which includes also subs or video games.
The most outrageous example is probably, when Seven Seas straight up rewritten one of the protagonist of "I Think I Turned My Childhood Friend into a Girl" into a trans person, effectively removing BL element, which even angered original author when they found out.
Overall, localizers are not even subtle about their disdain towards the materials they are supposed to translate, which also include dubs.

This Dragon Maid is being used so much as an example, because anyone who sees this and culprit's doubling down can immidietly see what is wrong and how outrageous it is without any further explanation, which is why this particular clip is so good to explain the bigger problem.
And both localizers and dub writers are basically the same type of people. Wether they produce dub or sub is irrelevant, because both of them hate the product they are supposed to translate and if they are able to vandalize the product with written translation, they would do the same with dub translation if they could. And if voice actors hate the show and characters they are supposed to voice, then it obviously going to impact the quality, which is why most dubs are BAD.