| Nihilists believe the world has no meaning. Is there any meaning to the art they make? |
| その目だれの目？ |
| There is an art current or movement considered nihilistic but it's more akin to absurdism and that is Dada. The art is meant to be spontaneous, non logical, and often anti-bourgeois. https://www.britannica.com/art/Dada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
| All art to some degree is interpretive. However, this nihilist/post-modern art ideal of "everything is meaningless, so you do the hard work of interpreting my stuff" rather than putting any real effort in it strikes me as pretentious. Like this modern exhibit of a banana being tapped to a wall and people willing to pay 6 figures for it (don't believe me, see here: https://mothership.sg/2019/12/maurizio-cattelan-banana/). Not that I dislike all post-modern art, on one of the few times I've ever been to a museum I really liked the artwork of Sol LeWitt. But overall if the artists intends for his/her artwork to be pointless then I think it should be interpreted as such. Relating this to anime, this is why I had such a hard time with the anime Angel's Egg, a lot of people claim it's a masterpiece but Mamoru Oshii himself has admitted that the film has no intended message or purpose. |
Inter_anime said: Is it at least fun to watch? I typically dislike Oshii.Relating this to anime, this is why I had such a hard time with the anime Angel's Egg, a lot of people claim it's a masterpiece but Mamoru Oshii himself has admitted that the film has no intended message or purpose. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Lucifrost said: Inter_anime said: Is it at least fun to watch? I typically dislike Oshii.Relating this to anime, this is why I had such a hard time with the anime Angel's Egg, a lot of people claim it's a masterpiece but Mamoru Oshii himself has admitted that the film has no intended message or purpose. It's pretty much as interesting and intellectual as you make it, some people think it's some supper deep commentary on humanity, philosophy, and religion, and other people think it's just a bunch of random pretentious symbolism. For myself, I personally did not care for it too much, but I may revisit it in a few years to see if my views have changed. |
| It seems self-contradictory to me: if artists do not have faith in what they do, they are nothing else than vulgar scammers. |
| Well if Nihilists believe there is no meaning in world, than why would they think there is any meaning in anything they say? |
| Nihilistic art can serve as a powerful expression of the absurdity and existential crises that plague our existence. It can challenge conventional notions of purpose and meaning, leaving viewers questioning their own beliefs and searching for some semblance of significance in a seemingly meaningless world. While the art made by nihilists may reject traditional notions of objective meaning, it can still have a profound impact on individuals. It can stir emotions, provoke thought, or serve as a stark reflection of the human condition. The very act of creating art, even in the face of nihilism, can be an act of defiance, asserting one's existence and leaving a mark on the world, however transient it may be.. So yes, nihilistic art may seem like an ironic contradiction, but that's precisely what makes it so damn intriguing. It's a bold statement that says, "Hey, world, you may be meaningless, but I'm going to create something beautiful, absurd, or utterly nonsensical anyway." And that, my friend, is a meaning in itself.. |
| I mean, based on their own admission the art they make is meaningless, since to them, everything is meaningless. traed said: God I hate this pretentious dogshitThere is an art current or movement considered nihilistic but it's more akin to absurdism and that is Dada. The art is meant to be spontaneous, non logical, and often anti-bourgeois. https://www.britannica.com/art/Dada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada |
 This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
StarfireDragon said: I mean, based on their own admission the art they make is meaningless, since to them, everything is meaningless. traed said: God I hate this pretentious dogshitThere is an art current or movement considered nihilistic but it's more akin to absurdism and that is Dada. The art is meant to be spontaneous, non logical, and often anti-bourgeois. https://www.britannica.com/art/Dada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dada It's literally anything but pretentious though. Part of the point is not giving a fuck about snooty art critics. Why do people throw around that word not knowing what it even means? Pretentious means either a person who claims they are an important person when they arent or a person that acts like they think they are superior to everyone else, or a thing that is over the top showy. None of these apply here we are talking about art itself not any person and it's not showy by any stretch of the word. |
| ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣸⠋⠀⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⡔⠀⢀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⡘⡰⠁⠘⡀⠀⠀⢠⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠁⠀⣀⠀⠀⡇⠀⡜⠈⠁⠀⢸⡈⢇⠀⠀⢣⠑⠢⢄⣇⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⢸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢰⡟⡀⠀⡇⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠘⡇⠈⢆⢰⠁⠀⠀⠀⠘⣆⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠸⠀⠀⡄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠤⢄⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡼⠀⣧⠀⢿⢠⣤⣤⣬⣥⠀⠁⠀⠀⠛⢀⡒⠀⠀⠀⠘⡆⡆⠀⠀⠀⡇⠀⠀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⢵⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⡰⠀⢠⠃⠱⣼⡀⣀⡀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠈⠛⠳⠶⠶⠆⡸⢀⡀⣀⢰⠀⠀⢸ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⣀⣀⣀⠄⠀⠉⠁⠀⠀⢠⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⣼⠋⠉⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠴⠢⢄⡔⣕⡍⠣⣱⢸⠀⠀⢷⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⡰⠃⢀⠎⠀⠀⡜⡨⢢⡀⠀⠀⠀⠐⣄⠀⠀⣠⠀⠀⠀⠐⢛⠽⠗⠁⠀⠁⠊⠀⡜⠸⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⢀⠔⣁⡴⠃⠀⡠⡪⠊⣠⣾⣟⣷⡦⠤⣀⡈⠁⠉⢀⣀⡠⢔⠊⠁⠀⠀⠀⠀⢀⡤⡗⢀⠇⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⢀⣠⠴⢑⡨⠊⡀⠤⠚⢉⣴⣾⣿⡿⣾⣿⡇⠀⠹⣻⠛⠉⠉⢀⠠⠺⠀⠀⡀⢄⣴⣾⣧⣞⠀⡜⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀ ⠐⠒⣉⠠⠄⡂⠅⠊⠁⠀⠀⣴⣿⣿⣿⣿⣻⣿⣿⡇⠀⠀⢠⣷⣮⡍⡠⠔⢉⡇⡠⠋⠁⠀⣿⣿⣿⣿⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ |
traed said: It's literally anything but pretentious though. Part of the point is not giving a fuck about snooty art critics. Why do people throw around that word not knowing what it even means? Pretentious means either a person who claims they are an important person when they arent or a person that acts like they think they are superior to everyone else, or a thing that is over the top showy. None of these apply here we are talking about art itself not any person and it's not showy by any stretch of the word. Are you kidding me? The entire point of this kind of art is to show that caring about art is beneath them. The fact that you are attributing this as "anti-bourgeois" and some people think it's somehow profound commentary on society is proof enough of that. It's like saying that a shitpost is art. |
This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
Lucifrost said: Nihilists believe the world has no meaning. There's a lot more to it than just that. "Nihilism is the belief that all values are baseless and that nothing can be known or communicated." "an extreme form of skepticism: the denial of all real existence or the possibility of an objective basis for truth" "Since the twentieth century, there have been various takes on nihilism that put forth different perspectives. Forms of nihilism include: 1. Epistemological nihilism: This form of nihilism goes one step further beyond the thinking of a skeptic who questions the validity of information. In this case, nihilism states that knowledge does not exist. Alternatively, if there is knowledge in the universe, we cannot attain it, therefore it might as well not exist at all. 2. Ethical nihilism: Someone who considers ethical nihilism to be their moral philosophy believes that there are no ethics. Therefore, there’s no reason to hold themselves or anyone else to any ethical standards. 3. Existential nihilism: Here the position is that life has no meaning. Everyone everywhere, at every point, has no value to the universe. Existential nihilism overlaps with the branch of philosophy called existentialism. French philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre wrote about existential nihilism. 4. Passive nihilism: This philosophy of nihilism states that nihilism is its own end, and there is no reason to pursue higher values. 5. Political nihilism: This methodology states that nobody should hold any political views and should instead try to tear down all political institutions." My own view is that the notion of anything having intrinsic meaning is preposterous, because the very concept of meaning revolves around individual subjective perception: that is, what something means to any given person. In other words, we create our own meaning. I find the prospect of an "ultimate meaning" dictated to us to be the most meaningless and absurd idea of all. Since I acknowledge that meaning is all about personal insight, I do not regard myself as a nihilist. Lucifrost said: Is there any meaning to the art they make? Just because a nihilist creates art does not make it "nihilist art"; I would be interested in examples of art that is necessarily nihilistic. At any rate, a work of art can easily mean something to someone, so of course it can potentially have meaning. If someone creates art that intends to convey a certain message, that means it did have intended meaning at its creation as well. |
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EyeAmTheI said: What is the difference between them?Note though: by nihilistic art I don't mean post-modern. The two are not the same, although there are overlaps. I am not a fan of the post-modern (aka low effort) art. |
| その目だれの目？ |
EyeAmTheI said: But I still don't understand the difference between nihilism and post-modernism. Could you please explain it?Lucifrost said: What I was trying to say is that not all post-modern art are nihilistic and not all nihilistic art are post-modern. You can even find classical art which is nihilistic in theme (even way before the nihilism as an idea was a thing)What is the difference between them? |
| その目だれの目？ |
Zettaiken said: They dont believe in inherent meaning. Nihilistic artists would say that whatever their art means is dependent on the observer of said art. Nihilists do not claim there is no meaning as a concept, meaning in nihilistic thought is just a byproduct of human thought. Well if Nihilists believe there is no meaning in world, than why would they think there is any meaning in anything they say? Do nihilists think their words have inherent meaning? No, not really. But they would obviously claim there are things they say that others derive meaning from. I mean I guess its a fair question to have but I dont see the correlation between thinking there is no objective meaning in the world and thinking meaning itself cannot exist. There are atheistic existentialists of course who run with the idea of subjective meanings and from that claim that the world does have meaning that is imposed by humans. Nihilists disagree with that for different kinds of reasons, mostly the fact that subjective meaning does not constitute real meaning. For the question as to why they would do that then even if it has no meaning? Well, that isn't really a gotcha or something like that, they do it because they can. They recognize their actions are not derived from a bigger motive of the universe. And if people have that as a central philosophy of theirs I would assume they are at least satisfied enough with it to just not care if life is meaningless. People can have reasoning without meaning. Like when you go to the toilet do you think about the meaning of that? Of course, you dont because that seems kind of absurd, you dont go to the toilet for like any meaning, you go there for technical reasons, like yknow taking a shit. This is all assuming we are talking about nihilism within existential philosophy because there are many many other types of nihilism within very different fields of philosophical study. For example someone who would be a nihilistic artist in name maybe only uses nihilism as a subject instead of being an existential nihilist. There are lots of people who say some media is "nihilistic" just for the fact there is a lot of tragedy within it. Hope this explains why nihilists do stuff at times and how it isnt that simple. Felori said: I think too many are just misinterpreting nihilism as misanthropy. I would agree within both circles there is overlap, but one isnt the other. I think most nihilists would find it actually kind of absurd. I see myself as an existential nihilist so I cant speak much on some other forms of nihilism. But honestly, as a nihilist, I hate misanthropes as much as the next person. I guess its just kind of maddening because someone will ask for your views and then they will suddenly think you hate humanity even tho thats an entirely different philosophy. From how I see it, nihilism has given me more comfort than I had before.Also nihilism isn't necessarily anti-life and a negation of all positivity how it's often portrayed. It's "there is no intrinsic, God given purpose to live or doing certain activities", there isn't included that you must brood over your existence 24/7. To really just keep it short, the aesthetic of nihilism is something I hate because most of the time it derives from people not understanding it. |
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Text101 said: Do nihilists think their words have inherent meaning? No, not really. But they would obviously claim there are things they say that others derive meaning from. Well my answer was more of a joke instead of a serious response. Nonetheless thanks for such answer. [Actually I have nothing wrong with em and I dislike the view of portraying some "philosophies" very seriously, as an example which is not a nihilistic view, people tend to interpret very deeply the Symposium by Plato which is just a description of an alcoholic party, or at least a huge part of it as I haven't read the whole, but the stuff from the moment of just before going to that party and during, no idea how much stuff was written for before/after that scene] |
Zettaiken said: I thought it was actually a fictional story written by Plato, because like it uses Socrates. While I think it is debatable if the symposium says something important or not, it feels to me like there is at least some intent to have a philosophical meaning or be a thought piece for the audience. I would think that because thats how Plato wrote his stuff.people tend to interpret very deeply the Symposium by Plato which is just a description of an alcoholic party |
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Text101 said: Zettaiken said: I thought it was actually a fictional story written by Plato, because like it uses Socrates. While I think it is debatable if the symposium says something important or not, it feels to me like there is at least some intent to have a philosophical meaning or be a thought piece for the audience. I would think that because thats how Plato wrote his stuff.people tend to interpret very deeply the Symposium by Plato which is just a description of an alcoholic party Depends on how you'd look at it, my own promoter from bachelor's aswell as some other proffs said that it might have happened, aswell as they've said that is just a description of a "typical weekend", getting drunk, weird behaviours, moving from "one bar to another", having specific topics and questions "3 am drunk thoughts/philosophies" etc. As much as it is still fun to read I wouldn't doubt that it is just a depiction of an ancient hard party instead of something else. But I suppose we'll never get the answer, as history and archaeology is simply as we call at university "interpretation of the interpretation" |
StarfireDragon said: traed said: It's literally anything but pretentious though. Part of the point is not giving a fuck about snooty art critics. Why do people throw around that word not knowing what it even means? Pretentious means either a person who claims they are an important person when they arent or a person that acts like they think they are superior to everyone else, or a thing that is over the top showy. None of these apply here we are talking about art itself not any person and it's not showy by any stretch of the word. Are you kidding me? The entire point of this kind of art is to show that caring about art is beneath them. The fact that you are attributing this as "anti-bourgeois" and some people think it's somehow profound commentary on society is proof enough of that. It's like saying that a shitpost is art. Some Dada artists went on to other art movements that came after it so I can't see that being true as a whole. "You are attributing" Im just quoting links I posted. Where does it say it's meant to be profound rather than a direct consequence of just doing something that was different at the time ? Even if it were meant to be profound, you personally not thinking so doesn't mean you have an objective truth you speak. Meme shitposts are art, just very low brow art. Personally I don't think of Dada as an art style more like an aesthetic though that doesnt mean it's not art, art isn't really some specific thing other than something people make with the intent of it being art. If you don't like something that doesn't make it pretentious. |
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traed said: Some Dada artists went on to other art movements that came after it so I can't see that being true as a whole. "You are attributing" Im just quoting links I posted. Where does it say it's meant to be profound rather than a direct consequence of just doing something that was different at the time ? Even if it were meant to be profound, you personally not thinking so doesn't mean you have an objective truth you speak. Is a resistance to certain values not an attempt at making a profound statement? The fact that it is in art museums, and has articles written about it in great detail is evidence that a lot of thought goes into analyzing such works. Meme shitposts are art, just very low brow art. Some shitposts have a more sophisticated level of editing to them, then others, which can at least be commendable, and very rarely, culturally significant. But I would not call most memes art, and I don't think most reasonable people would either. Personally I don't think of Dada as an art style more like an aesthetic though that doesnt mean it's not art, art isn't really some specific thing other than something people make with the intent of it being art. If you don't like something that doesn't make it pretentious. You can't use the word in the definition of the word. And besides, if the only thing that determines if something is an "art" is because "I intended for it to be art", then it's a useless term. If I scribble on two separate piece of paper, one doesn't automatically become art, just because I intended for one of them to be scribbled, while I accidentally scribbled on the other one. Such a notion is impossible to measure. And no I'm not saying there are a fixed number of art forms... but generally speaking there is overlap in terms of fundamentals and whatnot. |
This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
| Yeah, the site is called DeviantArt. |
 |
StarfireDragon said: One of my teachers used to define art as "something beyond my ability." I endorse her definition.You can't use the word in the definition of the word. And besides, if the only thing that determines if something is an "art" is because "I intended for it to be art", then it's a useless term. If I scribble on two separate piece of paper, one doesn't automatically become art, just because I intended for one of them to be scribbled, while I accidentally scribbled on the other one. Such a notion is impossible to measure. |
| その目だれの目？ |
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